BS: NYC Police and folkies

Subject: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

Here in Ottawa, Dean Verger of Rasputin's Folk Cafe sends out a weekly newsletter. In the gossip section of March 30th's newsletter, I was disturbed to read this (quoted, line breaks removed):

Paul and Carol rented Rasputin's for a Sunday afternoon celebration. But the reason was unusual. They had been picnicking last fall in a park in NYC when two men attacked and beat them. While being hit Paul realized they were really undercover police officers. The arrest was based on an incorrect belief of marijuana use. Neither smokes. At the station they were not allowed to call the consulate. But a bystander in the park did. When Paul got back to Canada he asked for a blood test which showed he was clean. Three court appearances later, with NYC police plea bargaining each time, Paul and Carol were finally completely exonerated. From the beginning he had only asked for an apology from the officers, which he has never received. Sunday was a day with friends, family, children, food, music, and a humourous rendition of the shocking episode. Paul finished his story by stating that we need the police, that he believes in them, but more, we need good police.

(end quote)
Any comments? Know of similar incidents?

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

"Three court appearances later... Paul and Carol were finally completely exonerated."

So what's the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:45 PM

Clinton:

IF you think police should beat people for marijuana use, you're in worse shape than I feared!! :>) It's nice you can get exonerated when innocent of charges (at least on occasion) but being brutalized in the process -- and on such a trivial matter-- is scarcely a non-issue.

A

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:49 PM

A pretty weird man...

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM

About a year ago a teen ager in our bowling alley was smoking something that smelled like weed and was rolled like a joint (not like a cigarette. We notified the police who sent out an officer to investigate. The officer took the teen out of the bowling aley and tested the "cigarette" for THC (which turned out negative). In the time that the officer was doing this the teen's girlfriend was screetching at us that it was perfectly legal, that it wasn't weed, that we were harassing them, etc. The teen cooperated fully and didn't have a problem with us and has never smoked the stuff in front of us again. Sometimes what looks like a duck and walks like a duck, isn't always a duck. His girlfriend continued on in her righteous rave. We told her that the stuff smelled and looked like weed and that we did what needed to be done and wouldn't apologize.

She said she wouldn't spend her money there again but all she had spent was a buck in the jukebox to play songs we didn't like anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:59 PM

Well, I'm pro-pot... but for now it's against the law, so if you ARE using it, expect to be treated like a criminal... Hopefully, that'll change someday...

If you're falsely accused of using and treated like a criminal, well, mistakes happen... and it seems in this case in the end, the mistake was acknowledged, and cleaned up....

"when two men attacked and beat them"

Coming from a GOSSIP column, in a folk-rag, I'd be very curious to see EXACTLY what is meant by "beat"...

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

Well... as far as "beat" when reffering to NYC cops, it can mean being pulled out of the restauraunt you are waitressing in and clubbed in the head for no reason during a cop riot in oh I think it was 1990, as happened to a waitress in the restaurant 7A... so I assume when our friends in Canada say beat, they mean beat... and frankly, I use my vote to bring about a day when we don't beat criminals in this land of liberty.
Please accept the heatfelt appology from a New Yorker who lives a few blocks from Washington Square Park. I wish you had an appology from the mayor. You deserve it.
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM

" in this land of liberty."

Which land is that then?

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:36 PM

Good qustion... free to call mercinaries contract workers? Whoops other thread. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

Interesting take on the report. When I read "don't smoke" I understood that to mean neither pot nor tobacco nor anything; that they were simply attacked because they probably looked like hippies. I'll check that out, but it'll probably take a day or two...

With regard to the apology, yes, I think it stinks that in our litigious society, jerks have a plausible excuse not to apologize. Doctors, for example, may lose their mal-practice insurance in cases where they apologize to a patient after making a mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

Dangerous people your polis. I had one come round saying I had stolen a cat. Hard to believe it was a stray we were feeding. Anyway he decided to arrest me and take me to the station. I went upstairs to dress in something other than my gardening clothes as I thought there might be someone sensible at the station. I'm in my natural when the nutter bursts through the door and beats the holy crap out of me. Charged with assaulting a PC, resisting arrest etc. Hauled out in jogging bottoms, bare feet and handcuffed in front of the neighbours - 4 polis cars - they thought it was a drugs bust so I got a bit of street cred. They dropped all charges but what I found worrying was when I saw my doctor she told me that it was a regular occurence. How can you support these people? It took a year before the damage to the nerve in my arm recovered. I was also advised not to pursue a case against them unless I wanted my life to be hell.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

Clinton:

Maybe that answers your question?


A

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:43 PM

Got word back from Dean:

Neither smokes. They were however eating brownies and lemon humus with vegetables. Maybe the brownie raised to the mouth looked like a thick stogie.

Paul said, there is a real war going on against drugs. The attitude is severe.

Paul is quite adamant that Police are necessary. He wants them around.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM

Dean adds:

There is the concept of True Positives and False Positives. The more aggressive the police, the more arrests. But both True and False Positives increase. Therefore more mistaken arrests. The cost of war. Paul and Carol were collateral damage, and that is acceptable in some eyes in any country.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:00 PM

They might just have thought if they looked like latter day hippies, it must be a hash brownie. And maybe it was a hot day and they thought this might get them back to the canteen early.

You can get charged with the offence of "wasting police time". I wonder if police officers ever get charged with that when they get involved in this kind of nonsense?

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: GUEST,Brownie
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:07 PM

Here is a recipe for Hash Brownies. Smoking is bad for you.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:21 PM

Colateral damage acceptable to some in any country... yes... they are called fascits. Your civil human rights belong to you alone, not to a swarm. We have strayed from the ideal that it is better to let a guilty bloke go then kill an inocent man (yes the US S.Court says that it is not unconstitutional to exicute an innocent person in light of proof of innocence in the interest of judicial ecconomy)... so here we are, less safe as a society because a society which tolerates "colateral dammage" is a damned dangerous place to live. I think I have lived too long.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM

Not in the least Amos...

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

it's a fine line we walk, getting guys (and a few gals) for the police force who are willing to DO the job involving danger and the dregs of society, and getting guys who simply like carrying a gun and/or harassing people! Both types are out there, and you never know when you'll meet the wrong type!

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM

I understand that, Bill - but what puzzles me is that, when it turns out that someone is the wrong type, why don't the rest of the force recognise him or her as a danger to themselves, instead of lining up in support?

At least that is the perception people in the civilian world get - borne out by comments such as that from Van up the thread "I was also advised not to pursue a case against them unless I wanted my life to be hell."

I'm sure that, as with teachers or social workers or lots of other people in jobs like that, false allegations get made, and, knowing the difficulties, you want to make sure that isn't happening in any particular case. But this kind of resistance to rooting out the bad apples seems to go a lot further than that in police forces.

The thing about bad apples is, it's not true that you always get a few bad apples in a barrel, and the rest stay sweet. If you don't get rid of the bad apples in time, it won't be that long, and the whole barrel is stinking.

Anyone who helps identify corrupt bullies who are masquerading as police officers is doing the rest of the police force a favour.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: GUEST,Humanist
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

To Chief Chaos and ClintonHammond:   
         
There is a cure for your ignorant attitude; it starts with a good swift kick in the balls - that is if either of you have any.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

Here in Portland there are many police shootings every year...many of which the dead are unarmed....there is a stink going on because a dead unarmed black man was shot down...they say oh but he had drugs on him....drugs are NOT guns or a knife...

Not too long ago there was another stink a cop shot down an unarmed black woman during a traffic stop...

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:21 PM

Clinton,

I worked in New York City for three years many years ago, one of those years as a NYC Urban Park Ranger. Each summer there are police offices set up within each large borough park (Central, Prospect, Flushing Meadows, etc) to deal with the additional crime in the parks. I regularly crossed paths with those folks, and we carried police radios to expedite reporting crimes reported to us.

I was speaking with a couple of our regular park cops one day and they candidly acknowledged rough treatment of people when they are arrested. It was pretty appalling--forget "innocent until proven guilty"--they figure they are arresting a guilty person who is likely going to get off without being arrested or fined, so by offering their own street justice ahead of time, the person is at least getting punished in some way. These two had their own view of the world and how everyone in it should behave. Many double-standards in their lives and careers, but to expand on those would be major thread drift.

In all it is pretty scary stuff. You don't have to look far for examples of extreme abuse in New York City cops. I don't for a minute think they are all that way, but there are certainly some Bad Apples in the Big Apple.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:57 PM

Amergin, I am incensed. They shot down a dead unarmed man? :)

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:52 PM

When young I roamed and ranged and followed my footsteps all over Chicago. Often, like Thomas Wolfe, I walked the whole night long.

In 1964 I was 22 and intent on taking the folk world in New York City by storm. I did get jobs at a few basket houses. After a few days in a hotel I realized I'd not be able to afford that luxury. I decided to live outside. I'd pretend to sunbathe in Central park to get a bit of sleep. (Even had a bottle of oil and a towel.) Then as evening came on, I would wander down to the Staten Island Ferry--only a nickel in those days. I'd pay my .05 and while floating over would clean up in the men's room. After that I would go upstairs where a fellow I had met worked selling hot dogs. He kept my guitar behind the counter so I could go into the park and "sleep" during his day shift. I'd pick up the guitar, bid farewell to Jose and wander over toward Cafe Wha where I was playing. After the gig I'd have some small amount of cash so I'd hit the Horn and Hardardt Automat for a meal. Then I'd wander the streets of N.Y. until it was time to go back to the ferry to drop off my Martin 000-18 which cost me $175.00 new back then.----This is the way I lived in New York that summer. Other than getting some of my musical chops together, not much important came out of that trip except getting to see Richard Burton do Hamlet at the Lunt-Fontayne Theater.----------------------But I did get this tale to tell you all. -------- And other than the mounted police in front of the theater to control the crowds that wanted to get a glimpse of Liz and Dick (Taylor and Burton), I never ever did see a policeman----not even when I was "sleeping" in the park. Never ever came close to being beaten by cops or anybody else.

These times we are in, while fascinating, are terribly sad. Nothing looks anything at all like the great future we always foresaw glowing so brilliantly up here in the new century.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM

Art: thanks so much for that! It is tales like this that keep me coming back to the cat year after year.

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:36 PM

I forget who said:

Paul and Carol were collateral damage,

No, they were not. "Collateral damage" refers to damage to physical objects, such as buildings, cars, etc., which is incurred as a side effect of a military action.

Side damage (if that's the way to put it) to people needs some other wording. It doesn't change the responsibility or culpability or whatever, or the degree of damage, but the expression isn't "collateral damage".

Just a language nut trying to keep the meaning of a useful phrase from getting blurred.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:57 PM

Growing up in a tough & poor section of Boston, we got to meet the police on occasion, up close, personnal & in your face. They'd smack us about because, I still don't know why. They were worst than the criminals that payed them off. The poorer neighborhoods got the worst cops & there were many. Back then a cop was looked on a low life scum. They were drug dealers, pimps & drunks with chips on their shoulders looking for any reason to use their gun. My sister at the age of 3 had polio & the cops came to take her to the emergency room, they told my father he could walk if he didn't want to pay for the ride. Over time this type of treatment by law enforcement officers began to change for the better but I believe we're back to square one again. Mainly because the public has allowed it to backslide.

MaGrath, there were far more bad apples, when I was growing up than good & if a decent cop got the notion to report on one of the bad breed he/she ended up with the full weight of the force coming down on them. Yrs back a close friend of my mother's family (Joe Stanley), a Boston cop would not take any part in any shady dealings. He was told to get with the program. He spent his time up until his retirement behind a desk doing night duty. He wouldn't give over & as a matter of personnal pride he wouldn't let them force him out either. So, at least in those days the cops that should've been dealing with the public & could've done a lot of good for the community were buried. When an unarmed kid is shot or a suspect is beaten it's more that just a few bad apples it's a bad policy that's tolerated not only by the citizens (who know what's good for them) but also by other law enforcement agencies. We shouldn't need public watch dog groups to monitor the police in order to make sure that they comply with the law.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:28 AM

Kevin--did you ever see the movie "Serpico"? Good cop tries to do his job and NOT take payoff...etc..and nearly dies as a result. That might explain what Barry just posted...It wouln't be as bac in Des Moines, Iowa as NYC, but the same basic formula exists...I saw it in Kansas!

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 05:24 AM

Serpico is what happens in a police force where it's not the occasional bad apple, it's the occasional good apple. I am sure that most people don't join the police force with that in mind, but it's easy enough to understand how turning a blind eye to corruption and brutality can seem like the best they can do sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM

LOL Ebbie...

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:08 PM

Dave - for some time now, not just yesterday 'collateral damage' has been used and understood to mean unintended human casualty. it may have originally meant merely physical objects, but for many years now that meaning has come to include people. and livestock, and pets etc.

how many remember, or have thought about, or care at all about, the millions of non-human living beings incinerated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the Bikini atoll & the desert of Nevada for 'tests', or all those creatures firebombed in any of hundreds of cities in Japan or Europe. what would you call them if not 'collateral damage'?

Subject: RE: BS: NYC Police and folkies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM

In the second world war it wasn't collateral damage, because killing the civilians was very much an intended outcome, as part of a doictrine of total war. Subsequently, the rules were defined toi class this kind of thing as a war crime, so when it happened it had to be presented as an unwanted side effect - hence "collateral damage".

The proportion of civilians killed in war to military personnel has continued to rise steadily.