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BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes...
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Subject: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM Why is the horizon receeding on the occupation deadline? Violence in Iraq seems to be escalating exponentially... why now? Sure feels like that quagmire thing we experienced in Viet Nam... sadly, the differences are dissappearing rapidly... it's getting ugly. Are we setting ourselves up for terrorist reprisals? Seems to me this could make Viet Nam look mild... ...and meanwhile GWB is insisting on being called "Mr. President", rather than 'sir'... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM From Leno: "President Bush got a little upset with a reporter for calling him 'sir' instead of 'Mr. President.' Man, how upset is he going to be after the election when they start calling him George again?" From John NIchols' column: "So who's the AP person?" demanded Bush. "I am," the reporter replied. "You are?" grumbled Bush. "Well, ask it." "Sir, uh, in regard to...," the reporter began. Bush stopped the journalist at mid-sentence. In a scolding voice, he demanded to know: "Who're you talking to?" The AP quickly corrected himself. "Mr. President," he said. Bush--who in 2002 acknowledged that "If this was a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator"--was satisfied that he had been properly addressed. He then allowed the reporter to continue. However, his reply to the question was typically short and perfunctory. Perhaps, the reporter would have gotten a better answer if he had just said, "Your Highness..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: harvey andrews Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM well...you offer democracy..then say no elections and no, you'can't have an islamic state. You offer freedom of speech...but close down a newspaper you don't approve of. You offer to transfer power...but to a non-elected puppet assembly. Next thing you know you're calling citizens revolting against their occupation, against their disenfranchisement, against their being told what they can have and what they can't have, against their being told what they can read and can't read, "the enemy". There are millions of people saying "We told you so!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Donuel Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/aas0.gif |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: mg Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM Of course there will be a quagmire and of course there will be terrorist reprisals. Were we so naive as to think not? But now they have tasted freedom, for the first time in their lives some of them. The bad guys are not going to go down easily. They have a lot to lose. Many are undoubtedly sincere and see things from a religious framework we do not understand. Trust me, there are worse things than quagmires, and we might live to see them. Might not. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM Taking attention of the 9/11 commission, of course. War sells... all the pretty pictures. :~( ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: akenaton Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM Well said Harvey.... The Americans are now in the position of having to kill the very people they were supposed to have "liberated". We are lead by fools!...They were warned by mass demonstrations,that war would mean more terrorism,and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. There are still people on this forum, and on this thread who would excuse this monumental blunder. When are they going to have the guts to admit they were wrong . |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM "But now they have tasted freedom, for the first time in their lives some of them. The bad guys are not going to go down easily. "...now they have tasted freedom" - that's the problem. The point is "the bad guys" who are most in the picture at present are the guys who Saddam hated worst of all, and who hated him. This "the rebel cleric Moqtada al-Sadr" - his father was a Shi'ite cleric who was killed by Saddam in 1999. They aren't fighting to get Saddam back.They are fighting to get the rod ofvthe occupation, and of the make-beoiueve regime that is being imposed on Iraq to fit the US Election timetable. And up the road there are another bunch, for whom life under Saddam was at least better than it is now, and they are fighting too. And up the road somewhere again, you have "Al Qaida", calling on Sunni Muslims to kill the Sh'ite's, in between killing the occupiers; and showing how it can be done. All the headlines, inevitably, are about the soldiers from outside getting killed. But we know, don't we, that for every dead soldier there are a lot more dead civilians. Gunships firing missiles into crowded city areas - we never had that kind of thing in Northern Ireland did we? Is there something about ordinary people in Iraq that makes them more expendable as collateral damage than people in our own streets? Hell, it's not even that they look particularly different from us, and nor do a lot of the streets. And this masquerades as a "War against Terror". Terror is what it produces, both directly and indirectly. This is an unholy mess. And it won't be long before we'll be hearing how "well, it's easy to criticise with hindsight but..." But it didn't need hindsight to know this was going to be an unholy mess, because outside millions of ordinary people were shouting themselves hoarse predicting it. ................. And here is an article pointing at a total cock-up that helped get us into this situation; and the people saying so aren't even anti-war, they are hard-nosed military experts: Violence blamed on US decision to disband Iraq army. And who do they finger as the military genius in question? One guess, got it first time: "The decision was taken by Donald Rumsfeld, the American defence secretary, under pressure from right wing 'neo-cons' in the Bush administration." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: katlaughing Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM Any Americans who plan to travel abroad might want to buy and wear this TShirt Thanks to WyoWoman for bringing it to my attention! Don't forget to VOTE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:53 PM "The decision was taken by Donald Rumsfeld.." who said, approximately-- "There aren't any good targets in Afghanistan...all the good targets are in Iraq" It reminds me of an old Mutt & Jeff cartoon...Li'l Jeff is on his hands & knees under a streetlight, and Mutt asks him what he is doing...Jeff says "I lost a silver dollar" Mutt gets down and helps him look for awhile...then asks "Are you sure you lost it around here?" ..."No", says Jeff,"I lost it down in the middle of the block"..."Then why are you looking HERE?", asks Mutt...."Oh", says Jeff, the lights much better here." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:57 PM "I didn't vote for him"? Surely "We didn't vote for him"? ....................... US kills 40 in mosque attack as Iraq conflict spirals out of control |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Alaska Mike Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM (Excerp from an article by William Rivers Pitt, here is the entire article. ) There is no simple solution. An immediate withdrawal will set the stage for an incalculable slaughter in an Iraqi civil war, more terrorism against the United States, half a dozen more wars in the Middle East, the world's petroleum falling into the hands of al Qaeda, and the potential for Pakistani nukes in the hands of bin Laden. Staying in Iraq, conversely, will bring us more dead and wounded American soldiers, more dead and wounded Iraqi civilians, more terrorism against America, and billions and billions more dollars poured onto the sand. The only solution involves a long-term strategy. Bush must be defeated in November, and a new administration that does not get its jollies by urinating in the faces of the international community must be elected. That new administration must pull out all the stops to bring a true international coalition into Iraq, so the American soldiers who inspire such demonstrable hatred from the Iraq people can be rotated home. The money being wasted on this Iraq misadventure must be rerouted to fighting actual terrorists like the ones who bombed the trains in Madrid. International money-laundering loopholes used by terrorists to fund attacks, loopholes which were left open by American Congressmen beholden to corporations like Enron which use those same loopholes to steal from stockholders, must be closed. The list goes on and on. None of this is guaranteed to work by any stretch of the imagination. The truth is we cannot stay in Iraq, and with our current leadership in America, we will not leave. Even after Bush is defeated in America, our forces will remain in Iraq until the international community decides to come and rescue us. Make no mistake, it will be a rescue. There are no good options for Iraq. None. This will be the legacy of this administration. Bush and his people have hung this heavy millstone around our necks, and we are sinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Bill D Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM I think.....that if I were Iraqi, or ANY Arab, I'd be making life miserable for Americans in any way I could right now---why, maybe even raising the price of crude oil-- on the theory that it can only help bring about a regime change in the USA in November, and a better Middle-East policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM Of course Bush could always do an LBJ, and go on the telly and announce he won't be accepting the nomination to run for president. Don't hold your breath, mind - but the only thing stopping him doing that is himself and his monstrous conceit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Gareth Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM Kevin - IIRC the argument pre liberation of Iraq were more directed towards the morality of the task. Please do not revise history to justify your stand. Its akin towards suggesting that in Ulster the Good Friday Agreement justfies the facists on both religeous sides. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:46 PM ... and for most Americans (sorry Canada, I mean most US-ers), a pres at war is a pres with an ascending popularity/job approval rating. When we got into all this, I watched as while Mudcat screamed louder, the polls applauded louder. Very weird. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:48 PM It was about whether this was a just war, and essentially whether any good effects achieved (getting rid of Saddam) could outweigh the bad effects (some of which we are seeing today). Arguments about "the morality of the task" are arguments about precisely that kind of thing. I wrote "But it didn't need hindsight to know this was going to be an unholy mess, because outside millions of ordinary people were shouting themselves hoarse predicting it." Are you really saying that we weren't predicting that it would all end up in an unholy mess? (I just can't read the analogy implied in your last sentence - but maybe better not unleash an Irish argument in this thread.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM McGrath, I'm not sure that the demonstrations prior to the invasion of Iraq were because people thought the war would end up in an unholy mess as much as they were about the morality of a "pre-emptive" (what a rationalization!) strike. Strangely enough, however, one of the reasons Canada didn't support the US and get into the war was because our intelligence people felt it would end up in an unholy mess, just as it has. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Sorcha Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:59 PM Bush is a madman....where is Doug R in this thread? He seems to belive in him.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Deckman Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM Mary, You asked: "Were we so naive as to think that?" NO, we were not that naive. And we told President bush, and the rest of his administration, that it was going to be a quagmire. But, in spite of what we said, again and again, he made the decision, by himself, to start this stupid war. Now that he has brought this war about, we are in a terrible situation. Our credibility is ruined, certainly for the rest of my life. There is NO ANSWER to this situation. And it's all because that stupid man in the white house decided that we should have this war. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:11 PM There will probably be several new wars in the region fairly soon regardless of whether the Americans pull out of Iraq or not. The Bush administration has opened Pandora's Box, and there may be no way left to shut it now. Or you could argue that Osama Bin Laden opened it, and then Bush opened it much wider, depending on your preference. But it's opened. What is slowly crawling out of it is a Third World War which will not be fought the way the last two were at all. In World War I they fought soldier to soldier at the front lines. In World War II they bombed the cities and civilian centers of their official enemies. In World War III the battlefield will be unpredictable...and absolutely everywhere...and the front lines will not be very clear at all. Every civilian is in danger now. This happened because various people would rather fight than talk. They imagine attaining victory. It will elude them. No one is going to "win" this one. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:37 PM Morality is about balancing the consequences of your actions. All the consequences. In the case of this war it was about what was likely to happen in Iraq; and what was going to be the consequences of tearing up international agreements that had been painnfully put together for good reasons; and what the consequences would be in this "war on terror". It seems to me that pretty well everything which has been done has played into the hands of Al Qaida. Bin Laden might just as well have been sitting in the Oval Office, playing chess, and willingly sacrificing expendable pieces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:54 PM We have to stick it out. Somehow. But Bush' legacy is a grim one and there was plenty of prediction that it was wrong action. Plenty. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:09 PM Three different versions of the same story: First from an English paper, the right-wing Daily Telegaph: US aircraft in deadly attack on mosque Second from a English paper, which would be descrubed as "liberal" in the USA, The IndependentUS kills 40 in mosque attack as Iraq conflict spirals out of control And here is the FOX News version U.S. Marines Advance North in Fallujah They make an interesting comparison. Thanks to (in this case) Google News. Noone has to read the News wearing blinkers these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Ebbie Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM This is one of those times that it is no comfort to say: We told you so. But damme, we did, and that fact is easily established just by rereading some of the pre-war threads. I wonder how Bush and his henchpeople are dealing with this: April 7, 2004 Reuters "Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration has faced a steady exodus of counterterrorism officials, many disappointed by a preoccupation with Iraq (news - web sites) they said undermined the U.S. fight against terrorism. "Former counterterrorism officials said at least half a dozen have left the White House Office for Combating Terrorism or related agencies in frustration in the 2 1/2 years since the attacks. "Some also left because they felt President Bush (news - web sites) had sidelined his counterterrorism experts and paid almost exclusive heed to the vice president, the defense secretary and other Cabinet members in planning the "war on terror," former counterterrorism officials said. "I'm kind of hoping for regime change," one official who quit told Reuter" Even with regime change this fall, which I pray to God will happen, it appears that this will remain an almost unsolvable crisis. The only successful path I can imagine is if the new American President and his govenment make a clean break of it, apologize for the absurdities that can happen in a representative government and ask for help from EVERYONE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:33 PM Talking about escalation loses sight of the original intent of unseating Saddam, which was to remove the possibility of the lunatic right religicos getting their hands on WMDs. Now I do admit the coalition made a huge mistake by closing the Shiite's newpaper; eventhough it spewed anti US diatribe, but being realistic, if that were left running then the Mullas would not have felt threatened and reacted. Also reported widely here today, the arrest of a senior assistant to the head honcho of the Shiit's. They say that both Suni and Shiite are now united, something that nobody not even the British managed to do before. Perhaps the US has driven out the hatred preached by Saddam's Bath party? Anyway it is a long way from Vietnam but what will happen if some heretofore hidden enemy of the west decided to even up the small arms inequality? What if the Iraqis now get real anti tank/armor weapons that work? What if they also get effective anti aircraft weapons. Don't forget folks the US is playing neo-colonial games right in the face of the RF, Uzbek and far more serious Georgia. Hey if you want to put it to Old Europe then Rumsfeldt could not have chosen a better place to do it by his mits or finger up at the old enemy. Perhaps they are trying to show that the US can do what nobody has ever done, invade and colonise eastern Europe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM From that Independent stiry: ...By last night, the troops which overthrew Saddam Hussein a year ago this week, had been driven from five Iraqi cities after heavy fighting. Allied forces were under attack at both ends of the country. Abu Hussam, an elderly man in Haswa just east of Fallujah, said: "We were pleased when the Americans overthrew Saddam's miserable regime but today our lives are worse than they were when he ruled in Baghdad." He said he hoped the insurgents would win. " ............................................ the original intent of unseating Saddam, which was to remove the possibility of the lunatic right religicos getting their hands on WMDs If Saddam had given any of that stuff (even if he'd had it) to "the lunatic right religicos", of either variety, the first thing they'd have used it for would have been to waste him. Noone who knew anything about the situation believed that line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM sorefingers - The Russians succeeded in invading and colonizing Eastern Europe, with the exception of Yugoslavia. I guess you meant the former Yugoslavia, did you? Amos - I don't think the USA is going to be able to "stick it out" in Iraq...in the long run. We'll see. I think, like Vietnam, it will become untenable...and it won't take as long as Vietnam did. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM It is very different from Vietnam. The Iraqi insurgents are not backed by the USSR, for one thing, andf their flow of munitions is bounded, unless the Jihad Complex breaks out like mad and all moderation is lost. What we must "stick it out" for is to desperately try and put the nation back on a footing of neghotiation and law, rather than fanatacism and force. Going in their was very, very stupid. We could have educated the nation into peace in a decade or so for a fraction of the cost. There were other ways to emasculate Saddam's regime. Cartoon, for example. But we chose the path of violence, under our brainless leadership, and we are stuck in a violent problem. It is enough to drive me to prayer. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:30 PM Oh, for sure, Amos. It's very different from Vietnam. What you had in Vietnam was a limited regional war. What you have here is a slowly developing unlimited World conflict with roots in many different regions and a battlefield that can appear literally anywhere at a moment's notice. Iraq is just one small playing piece on a board that stretches worldwide. Some of the key players are: the USA, Israel, Russia, China, France, the UK, Japan, Australia, Pakistan, India, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Germany, Italy, Spain, North & South Korea, Venezuela, the Phillipines, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and so on, and so on. And the basic reason for it: a growing shortage of vital strategic resources, namely, oil & natural gas, water, food, and arable land. This game is for the biggest stakes of all...control of the rapidly shrinking resources of an overcrowded World. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST,JB Date: 08 Apr 04 - 03:02 AM View of an Irishman living in Germany: Obviously we are receiving reports on the Iraq war in Ireland and Germany which digress totally with those of CNN or other American news sources. I would like to comment on some points mentioned in this thread. From Deckmann: "But, in spite of what we said, again and again, he made the decision, by himself, to start this stupid war". Sorry, I can`t agree! If HE referrs to GW Bush, then never, oh never did Bush make any decisions by himself. He is nothing more than a puppet with very low intelligence who is being controlled by people like Rumsfeld, Cheeny and others (and they are the most dangerous types). They are the real perpetrators of war who really pull the strings in the background and use this brainless cowboy as an instrument of implementation. On top of this, this fool has now become smug, arrogant and conceited when addressing the press. McGrath of Harlow is absolutely right when he says that this group at the oval office have completely played into the hands of the terrorists and Bin Laden might just as well have benn living in the oval office playing chess, and willingly sacrificing willing expendable pieces. Surely though at the end of the day, one must wonder if Bush & Co. should not be held responsible for War Crimes. JB |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:06 AM What damn fool US politcian said "bring it on"!?!! Robin |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:15 AM Mister Bush, Asshole President pro tem of the United States of America said that. LH, if we cannot confine this to a limited conflict then we are in serious doodah. Because no matter why it spreads, what will be claimed -- falsely -- is that this is a religious war (on either side) and that claim will burn all the harder because it is a lie. And th epersistence of the lie will feed the growth of hatred and vice-versa. Talk about a day of Reckoning and opening Pandora's nasty little box...the choice to invade and occupy Iraq may lead, according to your scenario, directly to the worst situation we've ever been in. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM It seems to me the tension is between extremists on both sides. Unfortunately, ours are in the White House. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Mooh Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM Amos...I hope it drives us all to prayer. Many of us started that long ago. This is a war of misinformation. There are parties on both sides who believe it is a war of oil, religion, revenge, colonization, money, influence, and just plain barbaric stupidity. I don't believe anyone will save face in a strategic withdrawal by the USA, there's already been too much damage. The seeds of many generations of distrust have been sown, and they bare no good fruit. What alarms me is the possibility that the Bush League may try to manufacture reason to launch nukes or some other major offensive in much the same way as this war has been manufactured or "spun", and do it before he leaves office. Shrub's adolescent fantasies of being a war hero aside, the world pays for his deluded, bigoted, conceited, arrogant posturing because he's got the biggest toys in the sandbox, strongest schoolyard bullie friends, and richest family in denial. Not being a US voter, I can do little more than pray. God Bless America? What about Iraq? Peace, and prayer. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM When I first saw that the US had attacked a Mosque I think I felt as sick and shamed about my country as I ever have. I do consider myself patriotic. A true patriot would feel shame and sorrow when the people running his/her country are going against so much of the reasons for one's patriotism. I feel it is time once again for those who spoke up preceeding the war to mobilize and demonstrate as never before. The war in Iraq, if meant as a part of the war on terrorism, has only backfired. Bill Carlsen |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM Oh bullshit; they attacked a wall outside a mosque, not even the mosque itself, from which they were being attacked. When lives are being taken, you don't consider the niceties; and the violation of sanctity was not initiated by the AMerican troops. It was being used as a sheltered position from which to launch lethal attacks. So what -- when that is being done -- makes it a "mosque?. It had already been redefined and rendered into a sectarian asset of war. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM "no matter why it spreads, what will be claimed -- falsely -- is that this is a religious war (on either side) and that claim will burn all the harder because it is a lie." Exactly, Amos. That is how it will be marketed, and millions will die because of that lie. It's a very bad situation. It can only be avoided by sharing the Earth's resources in a fair and egalitarian fashion, rather than fighting over them. I don't see the will to do that in the halls of power. Ordinary people are not being told what is going on here. They are being whipped up against each other over phony emotional issues. The dead Iraqui who fought to protect his mosque and culture and national sovereignty, and the dead US Marine who fought to follow orders and serve his country are innocent victims of the same dirty game. It's not a case of "God Bless America"...it's a case of "God Save America (and everybody else)" that we have here. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: harvey andrews Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM ...I hope it drives us all to prayer. Many of us started that long ago. Sorry but you'll never convince me that this isn't over half the problem with everything! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:09 PM One tiny flicker of paradoxical good news maybe. And a nightmare, of course. The reports seem to indicate that in all this there is some rapprochement between Sunni and Shi'ites, even between those who feel nostalgic for Saddam and those who loathed his guts and rejoiced at his fall. Shi'ite flags in Sunni areas, blood donors in mosques of the other persuasion, that kind of thing. That's not good news for those fighting on the ground, or up in the gunships firing missiles down at targets selected for them - but it strengthens the possibility that if/when the troops are pulled out in a hurry, perhaps they'll leave behind them the makings of a viable regime, some kind of National Liberation Front, rather than just a bloody mess and a civil war that would perhaps make former Yugoslavia seem mild. It wouldn't be a regime too friendly to the USA or the UK, but then any regime that is too friendly in that direction is going to have a short shelf-life after the troops have gone anyway. But the nightmare is, what this is doing to millions of young Muslims all over the world, not particularly radical or religious ones, looking at the TV pictures, and feeling that choking sense of impotent anger? The kind of feeling that people inthe Irish diaspora may remember from things like Bloody Sunday. The kind of feeling that people recruiting for would-be Al Qaida style groups must pray for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Teribus Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM "no matter why it spreads, what will be claimed -- falsely -- is that this is a religious war (on either side) and that claim will burn all the harder because it is a lie." So far only one faction has ever stated, or attempted to portray this as a religious war - and that faction is not the current US administration, the IGC, the CPA or coalition military commanders. Mind you, there have been previous examples where the "Arab religious cleric" has used lies, deliberately told to inflame his followers and to prompt civil unrest and murder - Our old pal "where's the back-hander" Arafat's uncle - the man who lit the fires of the current Arab-Israeli back in 1920. Trouble is, the population are gullible enough to believe anybody who sets themselves up as a mullah or Imam, they take is word coming direct from on high or whatever - it's still a lie and unfortunately there is no way of showing the lying bastard up for what he actually is |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM The following is from an Iraq blog that quotes a letter an American civilian in Iraq sent to his wife. It is first-hand information, and very damning. A Letter From Iraq This is a note my friend Scott sent to his wife the day after the four contractors were killed in Fallujah. Scott was in the Armed Forces for years and is now working in Iraq as a contractor helping to rebuild Iraq while his wife and kids are in Florida. He has a ground-level view, and his words are chilling and scary and powerful. "I know about the news. We need Colin Powell back in charge. Discipline is slipping in the forces and it reminds one of the Viet-Nam pictures of old. Instead of a professional military outfit here we have a bunch of cowboys and vigilantes running wild in the streets. The ugly American has never been so evident. Someone in charge needs to drop the hammer on this lack of discipline, especially that which is being shown by the Special Forces, security contractors, and "other government agencies". We won the war but that doesn't mean we can treat the people of this country with contempt and disregard with no thought to the consequences. Those contractors, just like the last ones who were killed, were out running free with no military escort. Armed or not, that is a breach of protocol and a severe security risk. While I grieve for the families of those persons, I would like to see the person who decided that it was alright for them to convoy out there without the military brought up on charges, unless of course that person was in the convoy, in which case at least he won't be getting anyone else killed. I'm angry about how we're treating people here. I know it's not the entire military, in fact it is a very small, select group that believes they are somehow above the law of not only this land, but also the law of the military and those laws we hold dear in our own country. If someone were to try to treat our fellow Americans the way some of these people are treating the Iraqis the courts would certainly lock them away. I would phrase that last line harsher, but in light of recent events that would be cruel. Discipline is needed here, and I'm not certain that our current administration is prepared to take the steps necessary to crack down on all of this. In order for discipline to be restored I do believe Donald Rumsfield would have to admit that perhaps Powell's rules of war were in fact valid." Website |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:22 PM Teribus - For sure, many of the fighters and ordinary people (and some of the local leaders) see it as a religous war, but I think it is essentially a war about vital strategic resources, regardless of what those people think. Great powers look ahead to how they can control key resources. The Russians and Americans are covetously eyeing the oil in the Caspian and trying to get control of it all for themselves. All the nations are eyeing the oil in the Middle East, and that (along with the Arab-Israeli issue) is why the Middle East is a powderkeg. The Israelis are eyeing useful land to expand into...if they can get away with it, and they are eying crucial water resources as well. Venezuela is being destabilized because it has oil in large amounts. I am quite concerned about Canada's future, due to the fact that we have the World's largest reserves of fresh water. The USA wants unrestricted access to that water. Politicians use every other means possible to get people onside for aggressive moves (military invasions, trade wars, etc)...they invoke the usual inflammatory rhetoric...whatever gets people worked up. Religion is one of the handiest ways to get people worked up, but depending on which people and where. Focusing people's anger and fear on a symbolic demonic "bad guy" to "take out" (Noriega, Castro, Bush, Osama, Saddam, Milosevic, Clinton, Quaddafi, Sharon, Arafat, etc...) is another great way to get people worked up. Who the "bad guy" is all depends on who you are talking to. These are classic ways of manipulating ordinary people into offering themselves up as cannon fodder for darker and more prosaic objectives...which are not publicly acknowledged by the people pulling the strings. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: CarolC Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:44 AM Mind you, there have been previous examples where the "Arab religious cleric" has used lies, deliberately told to inflame his followers and to prompt civil unrest and murder - Our old pal "where's the back-hander" Arafat's uncle - the man who lit the fires of the current Arab-Israeli back in 1920. The one who was released from jail and then installed in power by the British government, against the wishes of the majority of Arabs. Hmmm... sounds a bit like what happened with Saddam, only with the US being the string pullers instead of Britain in Saddam's case. I guess some things never change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:13 PM And remember when Bush played right into the hands of the people who would like to make this whole thing a religious conflict by calling it a "Crusade"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM Yup. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM One reason the chimp may have thought he could invade Iraq with impunity (despite widespread US support of those in Ireland who objected (and I here express no view as to the merit or otherwise of such objection) to having been occupied for almost 400 years, almost the length of the entire history of white America) was that having bombed Afghanistan back into the stone age, he has faced little effective opposition to his plans for Afghanistan. Yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM Could be. Afghanistan's been through a lot in the last 20 years. I believe the present situation is that the official government controls not much except Kabul, while an assortment of warlords rule various parts of the countryside, and the foreign troops hold various military bases, conduct raids, and control the sky. That is rather like the situation when the Russians were there, although there's less fighting at the moment. Iraq has in the past proven to be a very difficult place to occupy with a foreign force. The British already found that out, and were forced to leave after a few years. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Blackcatter Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:35 AM During the 11 years the U.S. was screwing up in Vietnam, we averaged a little over 100 U.S. military deaths a week. So far this week, I think we're just under 60. Woo Hoo! And Little Hawk - just about every place is a difficult place to occupy with a foreign force, especially if the population feels they have little left to lose. pax y'all |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Blackcatter Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:39 AM Here's the quote I was thinking of: "You will kill ten of our men, and we will kill one of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it." - Ho Chi Minh, Sept. 4, 1969 Of course this was late in the war, but the final tallys were approx. 500,000 North Vietnamese and 50,000 Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:46 AM Man, why didn't his robot force tire of it with those odds? Some power, eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:09 AM I doubt it was entirely the power of one general Amos, the robot force didn't tire for the same reason any force in the US wouldn't tire if an invading army were on its own home soil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM Exactly. The Vietnamese were not robots. They were patriots fighting for their own soil...against the French, the Japanese, the French, the Americans, and even the Chinese (lster). They are still there. The foreigners are all gone. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Amos Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM The nation seems to be doing all right, too, in spite of the terrible seeds of Communism. But I don't know very mnuch about it, to tell the truth. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Blackcatter Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM Vietnam as quietly been moving towards a state-controlled form of capitalism. Which, of course means that the wealthy weill be getting wealthier, the destitute will stay that way and the people in the middle will be able to live "confortably" if they work really hard and they ca dream of striking it rich. In other words, the religion of capitalism has won and the Vietnamese have lost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:33 PM The religion of captalism has won almost everywhere, except Cuba. (I've been in Cuba.) That is because self-interest and greed are such powerful short term motivators, and you can always hire some professional killers to wipe out the few idealistic visionaries who get in your way and might impede the takeover by the great marketing system. Meanwhile, the World runs out of resources, arable land, clean water, and clean air, and the species of living creatures die off at an ever-increasing rate. All for a lousy buck. When the bubble bursts, you will not be able to eat your money. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:21 PM Incidentally, who in the world is naming these various military ventures? Can it be that no one in the whole blessed government has read 1984? "Bush said U.S. Marines engaged in Operation Vigilant Resolve "are taking control of the city, block by block." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:25 PM Guest Pdc - Thanks for sharing that letter. It condenses and confirms my previously stated fears about using mercenaries and contract workers. It will only fuel terrorism. Involving Japan was another bad idea. They may not want their soldiers on foreign soil but now they have their honour to defend. Just what we need! What will happen if Kerry wins the election? Has he said what he will do? Does anyone have any idea how to stop this madness? At this point, the only way I can see for America to redeem itself is to try Bush for war crimes and/or give him to the Iraqi's. But then, he and Condi, can always blame it on "poor intelligence". As if being "stupid" is an excuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:25 PM I thought Operation Enduring Freedom was a real classic example of 1984 talk. It was the Iraquis who were enduring the Americans' use of their freedom to blow up places "real good". Whoever names these operations is suffering from such grand hubris that I doubt the Emperor Nero could have surpassed it. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: CarolC Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:04 PM This is an interesting side note to the bit about Haj Amin al-Husseini, first introduced into this thread by Teribus. Herbert Samuel was the British administrator who pardoned al-Husseini (after al-Hussieni was arrested by the British for instigating a 1920 Arab attack against Jews), and then installed him in power by appointing him as the Mufti of Jerusalem. I just now noticed, while reading up on al-Husseini, that Herbert Samuel was Jewish. Talk about strange bedfellows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Richard Bridge Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:39 PM Samuel was Jewish? Well I never! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: DougR Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:07 PM TTR: setting ourselves up for "terrorist reprisals?" The inference here, I suppose, is if we are nice to the terrorists, they will be nice to us. Get a grip rhymer. What's happening in Iraq should come as no surprise to anyone. There are still Saddam hangers-on in Iraq, they want things to be the way they were. They had it pretty good then. Also, the ambitious cleric who sees himself as the next Saddam is waiting in the wings for the U. S. and other countries to leave, then he thinks he can move in and impose radical Muslem rule over the people. That guy has to be eliminated, or put in a jail for life. Comparisons with what is going on now in Iraq, and what went on in Vietnam is ridiculous (IMO of course). The Viet Cong had government sponsorship and not just from Vietnam. As far as we know, the troublemakers in Iraq are terrorists acting independently. DougR DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:20 PM "Terrorists acting independently" are what makes this whole thing from 911 such a bummer. Hostile governments are much easier thing to deal with, you know where they live. That applies even when they've got nothing to do with anything - hence the Iraq war. As as we know, the "troublemakers" in Iraq are a varied bunch of Iraqis with all kinds of views about things, with one thing in common, they are against the occupation. More or less what you get in most occupations. I'd have thought Americans would have a kind of folk memory of how that works. I agree though with one thing, Doug, "What's happening in Iraq should come as no surprise to anyone." I have a feeling it does though, to some people, who thought everything was going to be straightforward and simple, and even declared in effect that it was all over last May, wasn't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: CarolC Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM You're being facetious, Richard Bridge? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Alaska Mike Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM Lets see, American soldiers are being sent to fight and die in a country on the other side of the world not to protect our freedom, but for political and economic purposes. This is a country that offered no threat to the United States and one which we invaded without cause. Since the conflict supposedly ended, over 600 Americans have died and more than 18,000 Americans have had to be evacuated out for injuries suffered in combat. Supposedly we attacked this country to give them the freedom and democracy they so desperately wanted. Yet now they find that the democracy we promised was just another sham. American politicians are not interested in promoting democracy in Iraq. Bush and Rumsfeld are afraid that the majority Shi'a Moslems might want to create a fundamentalist Muslem government like the one in Iran. This would interfere with Cheney's Haliburton buddies controlling the vast stores of oil under the Iraqi desert. When the Iraqi people (Sunni and Shi'a alike) realized that no true democracy would be allowed, they naturally rebelled against the occupying army that had invaded their homeland. We now refer to these freedom fighters as "insurgents" and "terrorists", but if the tables were turned I believe Americans would act in the same mannor. The Republicans have wasted many lives and billions of dollars in this endeavor. We are now in a guerilla war which we can never win. If Bush gets another 4 years in the presidency, you can expect a draft to be called for and escalation of American forces into Iraq. Granted, many of the political and economic factors in this conflict are vastly different from those in Viet Nam. But the quagmire, the ever spiralling increase in lives and money certainly reminds me of another "police action" in the jungles of southeast Asia so many years ago. I have 5 children who are of an age where they could be drafted to fight in this conflict. I wish our leaders had been more honest with us when this thing began, and I hope the international community takes pity on our plight and rescues us from this inevitably continuing boondoggle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:58 PM Doug, the guy you want to be "eliminated, or put in a jail for life" will be replaced by another such guy, and another, and another, and another until the last American (and coalition) soldier leaves Iraq. This is not a case of "Saddam's diehards" fighting the foreign occupation of Iraq, it's a case of a people fighting for their own national sovereignty. Saddam is no longer of any importance in that equation. He was only the temporary excuse for a war launched under entirely false pretenses. And he was also a key enemy of Osama Bin Laden and of Islamic fundamentalism. The USA has opened Pandora's box. It started when they trained cells of Islamic fanatics to destabilize and break up the Soviet Empire. Bin Laden was the USA's man in those days. It escalated when they later betrayed and dropped those same people, since they were no longer needed by the USA to hurt Russia. It escalated further when they employed Saddam to attack fundamentalist Iran. It escalated further yet when they brought down Saddam, who was the strongest opponent of Islamic fundamentalism in the major muslim powers of the Middle East. What results from his removal is a resurgence of fundamentalism in Iraq on the Iranian model. This will prove to be a nightmare for the USA, and the USA has orchestrated it all the way along. The roots of Al Queda were unwittingly built BY the USA in order to kill Russians, back in the 80's. You can basically thank Ronnie Reagan's administration for doing that. They did a whole bunch of other collosally stupid things too, while preparing the ground for the Third World War. As for Clinton's administration, they did little or nothing to alter this sorry train of events, once they had been set in motion. I don't expect salvation from the Democrats, believe me. They work for the same corporate interests anyway. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM Very well said, Little Hawk, although I doubt it will do much good. DougR believes what he needs to believe -- it's much too late for him to recognize that he backed the wrong horse, even though the rest of the world sees his horse for what it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:11 PM Another very important similarity between Vietnam and Iraq: "There are alarming signs we may be repeating the Vietnam experience, in which the difference between positive official assessments of the situation and the reality on the ground produced a vast credibility gap." Marianne Means (emphasis mine) Doesn't that thought ever shake you, DR? Don't you ever wonder if they are lying to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What?!?... As Iraq explodes... From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:06 PM The USA have shown that they do a quite good job in making war (if you like to look at warfare from a professional point of view only), let us hope they are at least half as good in making peace. That would be good for them but not only for them. That's why I care about that. I did post that on April 10th last year. Vain hope. Wolfgang |
