BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......

Subject: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:25 PM

Well, folks, it has happened. The draft has been reinstated by Donnie Rumseld. Yup, since the recruiters ain't havin' much luck he has drafted the folks who had allready signed up and have now finished their obligations...

"Ahhhhh, sorry but you can't leave. We gotta a war on an no one else wnats to join in..."

Now who are these folks who have been *enslaved* into the US armed forces? We3ll, by in large they are poor folks. 50% of American adults have at least some college. 6% on the those who Rumsy says can't leave, inspite of meeting thier obligations, have had some college. Hmmmmmmm?

So here we are dependant on the *ensleved* poor to fight this immoral war....

And the beat goes on, and on.......

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:31 PM

I have also been told that draft boards are being organised for a real draft if the double digiter in the white house gets elected this time . We ain't marching anymore... !!! Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:32 PM

Bobert, where did you hear and/or read this?

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:40 PM

Nothin' new here Bobert- the Land of the Free and the Home opf the Brave has never been big on putting rich folks in harm's way.

Take the Prez's situation as an example...

Question is, why do the damn poor folks keep voting Republican? They seem incapable of even voting their own self-interest; something the rich folks have down to a science.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:40 PM

We have got to do whatever we can to change the make up of the Senate and Congress as well as the Presidency. This government is wrong, wrong, wrong. I hope the country has the courage to send these politicians on their way in November. Throw the bums out.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:47 PM

I knew it would come to this. Where did you get this info Bobert?

When will we ever learn...

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:07 PM

The info came from Mark Shields column in The Journal entitiles "Time to Apologize to Former Candidate Howard Dean" (April 11,2004). His colums are distributed by Creators Syndicate (www.creators.com).

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM

Thanks Bobert. Is this the one?

http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=msh

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

Yup, read on....

Purdy intersting stuff in there....

Get cha thinkin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

Bobert, I've missed something somewhere. This refers to the practice of putting people who leave the military in reserves which can be called up even though their formal service obilgation has already been completed. That's been the system for decades now. There's nothing on reiinstating the draft as we knew it during Viet Nam.

Is this the right article?

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:34 PM

"Stop-loss" has been going on since long before Afganistan began. As the name implies, its purpose is to stop the loss of people who can't be immediately replaced. It has nothing at all to do with the draft. Here is a brief article/announcement about it from a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

Sorry about that, hit the button too early.

So apparently did Bobert:

"The draft has been reinstated by Donnie Rumseld", our Bobert blithely broadcasts. Immediately the faithfull followers immediately accept that as the god'd honest and start witterng on about it. CarolC to her credit simply asked for the source of the information.

Nice one dianavan:
"I knew it would come to this. Where did you get this info Bobert?

When will we ever learn..."

Caught, swallowed hook-line-and sinker.

Better response would have been:

"Where did you get this info Bobert? I was afraid it might come to this"

So to date 44,500 US servicemen/women have been retained because they either happen to be in certain required specialisations, or are on active service. WOW astounding news, I can just see it now - Sorry boys my time's up I'll not bother returning the plane I'll just hop out here, always wanted to know if this parachute thing worked, and after today I might not get another chance. Are your lot really that pathetic.

As for actually re-introducing the draft - what on earth could they be used for anytime within the next four years, given that a full draft programme was started this minute.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

All depends on ones interprtation of the facts, Strick. If yer volunteered for say, oh, 4 years with the hope of being able to get some trainin' or college and you've completed yer stint and Donnie Rumsfelf come to ya and says, "Sorry, pal, but you can't leave. You gotta go back to Iraq." then to me that is like being drafted. You done yer time. You completed yer contract. You done yer part. And now, because you completed yer end of the deal, yer in a pool of folks that can be kept forever in Iraq???? If that ain't a draft then what the heck is??? Answer me that one!!! If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, Strick, its a duck!!!

You and yer bud Tetribus may want to spit hairs on this one and knock yerselves out. It's a draft... Jus' 'cause you both is nice an comfy, if you can put yerself in the shoes (which I know you won't) for one second of someone from the ghetto who volunteered, has been shot at, and done his or her time thinking, like the recruiters told him or her, that they would be going to college now and be told by Donnie Rumsefeld, "Sorry, you'll be dodging incoming as long as I say you will"... it's a draft!!! Or slavery!!!

You pick.

Ain't no other options here...

Now get uot yer magnifying glasses and try to divert attention from the realities if that makes ya' all feel all warm and fuzzy. Don't change a danged thing...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:51 PM

That's not quite fair, Teribus, there has been a rumor we were going to reinstate the draft circulating for months. It apparently stems from the fact that members of draft boards sign up for 20 years (I find it hard to believe, but that's what I read) and the board was replacing members who signed up the last time the draft was reorganized, 1984. The recruiting of a significant number of new draft board members apparently morphed into the rumor the draft would be reinstated.

I've posted it before. It's pretty clear the military does not want the draft. They like volunteers much, much better. They're smarter, they're less trouble and they stay in the service longer, long enought to get some good out of the training they have to go through. When military is having trouble meeting their recruiting goals, they generally ask for more money to recruit with, not reinstating the draft.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM

Bobert, OK, what ever you say. To most people when you say we're reinstating the draft 1) it's reinstated not just something we've been doing since heaven knows when and 2) we're thinking lotteries and 18 year olds who never volunteered getting their heads shaved on the way to bootcamp. That's not really interpretation, it's using the the most common definitions of the words. Heck, any definitions of the term draft as used in the US. You don't need magnifying glasses to see the difference between you said and what most people would have understood you were trying to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:25 PM

In a rather pervous way, I DO wish that bush and company would re-start the draft as we knew it in the 60's. That would force people to look at what's really going on ... in our country's name. And to be serious for a moment, offhand I'd say there is a 50/50 chance that President bush WILL be forced to start the draft again. It takes a lot of fodder to feed those hungry cannons. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:26 PM

Well gol danged!!!

I think we're makin' some progress here....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:10 AM

Bob, did you ever see the public service ad years ago that had two old farts in waistcoats and white whiskers taking punches at each other out in a field somewhere? It went along with a brief message that if the old men who started the wars had to fight them, there would be a lot fewer of them. I only saw it a time or two, but like Johnson's daisy/nuke ad, it stuck with me.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:46 AM

the politicians certainly like volunteers more. the big lesson our government learned from vietnam was that if people of all classes have to face the fact that their precious sons and daughters are being sent to die for some warmonger's private agenda there will be an uprising and the military adventures will be a bit harder to pull off. as long as the ones dying are from the lower economic classes (who volunteer in many cases more to get education and job training rather than fighting rich people's wars) it's a lot easier to keep the wool over everyone else's eyes.
if this particular fiasco continues as is, i think recruiting will be a little tougher. and if predictions of further actions against syria, iran, or whomever come true there will have to be a draft. i kind of hope they try it in the hope that it might help more people wake up to the way we've been mislead. you can sluff it off when nobody in your family's ass is on the line but your critical thinking gets a kickstart when it's your kid out there. bring it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:09 AM

Is this "stop loss" option spelled out in the military enlistment contract? If so, it's a moot point, isn't it? If you sign a piece of paper that gives the government the right to keep you beyond the end of your hitch, then you don't have much to complain about if they do it. You may be an idiot for doing so, but that's another issue.

On the other hand, if there's no such clause in the contract and people are being retained against their wills, it's a different matter all together.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:25 AM

Yeh, especially if you signed up before this current mess. Especially since you probably joined so you could get some training and education. Now you find out they had it planned all along.

Its really not like the draft and on second thought, the draft is not nearly as effective as "contract workers" and mercenaries and troops from other countries. Why would they need to draft? Just pay the guys to do "contract work" and you don't have to worry about veteran's benefits, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Deckman
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:39 AM

SRS ... Did I see it, heck ... I was the guy on the left!!!! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:10 AM

Bobert, what you wrote was really irresponsible. As a proud eight-year veteran of the all-volunteer US military, I can confirm that people who enlist in the military are well aware that in times of need their enlistments may be extended. Whether you agree or disagree with the current administration's decisions in Iraq, you would have more credibility if you refrained from statements like this. Calling it a draft doesn't make it one.

Anyone who signed up for military service with the idea that he could get money for college, etc., with no risk of actually being deployed, was deluding himself. It's pretty clear what the deal is well before you take the oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM

Back in The Day:

I enlisted in the Illinois National Guard for a period of eight years: 6 months active duty training, 2.5 years of drills and summer camps, and 5 years of inactive reserves where I'd just sit around a be called if they really, really needed me.

That enlistment was in 1963 (consider those years to come for a moment).

In 1966, I asked about transfer to the inactive reserve and was told that the program I enlisted under had been discontinued and I had to serve the entire eight years on active reserve. Okay, but I do wish that they'd told me about that.

In 1968, my NG unit was activated and eventually served in Chu Lai, South Vietnam. I was seperated and sent to South Korea.

When we were released from active duty in 1969, I and bunch of others said, "Screw it, we've done our bit, we're outa here." Wasn't that simple, though: those who had served in 'Nam could get out and transfer to the inactive reserve, but folks like me, who had been activated and hadn't been to 'Nam, had to serve a total of two years active -- and I was 16 days short!

Didn't matter that I'd tromped around the hills of Korea carrying a loaded machine gun, didn't matter that I had been up to the DMZ -- I still had 16 days active or I couldn't go inactive.

So I went with the advance party to Summer Camp in 1970, served 17 more days active, and went inactive upon my return.

Yes, I do think that I got screwed over at least twice. But I knew from the outset that I could a) be activated for combat duty, although it seemed unlikely, and b) as unfair as it might seem I could be "extended" on active duty if Uncle needed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:34 AM

The basic military obligation is eight years (the contract is here.), generally divided into active duty, active reserve/guard and inactive reserve/guard. Nothing I can find specifies whether or not the "stop-loss" program only extends the active duty phase of this, normally 3 or 4 years, or if it can extend the entire thing. I'm inclined to doubt the latter, but I can't be sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:47 AM

Well, our is due out in July, and I hope we know the real deal by then. He had thought of re-upping if he could get a shore assignment, but so far all they are offering is more sub duty. Maybe this is their way of explaining that they can't let him off the boat. They are having so much trouble attracting nuke reactor mechanics and retaining the ones they have got, that I wonder if they WILL let him out.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

Well, Whistle Stop, while you may be technicaly correct, you have missed the point and perhaps you might want to reread the article that someone posted a link to.

I haven't said anything about folks not wanting to be deployed during what they wetre told would be their term of service. Those are your words. Not mine.

While I respect your service, I don't think you are taking into account the current recruiting tactics or the socio-economic strata from which these volunteers are recruited. The military recruits kids in inner city high schools and is dependent on kids just trying to figure a way out of poverty. Most of these kids who were receuited were done so by folks who sold them on benefits, benefits and benefits. The negatives are sugarcoated or breezed over in a manner to minimize thier consequences. Might of fact, when the recruiters go into the high schools it's all sell, sell, sell. The No Child Left Behind bill has opened the floodgates for recruitment of high school impressionable aged kids. It is the legislation. No Child Left Unrecruited should be the name of the bill...

Bottom line, when 50% of all American adult have at least some college and only 6% of the enlisted volunteers have some college, somethin' ain't quite right... We're asking a disporportionate number of our pooor to carry the load and do the dieing for us... Many of whom really didn't read or understand the small print in their contracts because of the manner in which they were recruited...

And lastly, I don't think it is at all irresponsible to discuss this. Heck, given the realities, it would seem more irresponsible not to...

IMHO, of course....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:04 AM

Bobert, I don't entirely disagree with your basic premise, but let's make sure we're comparing apples with apples. As you so correctly say, many, if not most, of the recruits go into the military right out of high school, and the future promise of funds for college is a big attraction. That being so, then why is it surprising that only 6% of the enlisted volunteers have some college?

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: maire-aine
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:07 AM

First thought: I was pretty sure that the Selective Service system remains in effect-- 18-year-olds still have to register, right? And local draft boards still exist. But if the Selective Service had really started drafting again, holding lotteries and all that, I figured that even the mainstream media would be all over it. So I took Bobert's original message with a degree of caution.

Second thought: I think that the chances of reinstating the draft are way better that 50-50. If Bush is re-elected, I wouldn't be surprised if it's one of the first things he does.

M.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM

As to really reinstating the draft, I might, might be willing to discuss it if you're talking equity issues and then you're going to have to convince me you've found a way to require everyone to serve, not just force poor draftees to serve with the poor volunteers. The rich will find or create loopholes in any unpleasant thing they face.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM

Is it being insinuated that poor people are too stupid to know what they're getting into when they voluntarily sign up for military service? Some people don't WANT to go to college. That doesn't necessarily mean they are poor OR stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:52 AM

It is my understanding that new draft legislation is being stuck into multiple various bills and will evetually be passed without knowing what was done just like was done in a limited medical liability bill that was added at 2AM Sunday morning and voted on without awareness Moday morning. Furthermore the draft has not been passed yet and would best be left alone for another 7 months for political reasons.

The purpose of this particular draft will be a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Bobert, I didn't say, or imply, that discussing these issues is irresponsible. But I believe that putting the attention-grabbing headline "Draft Reinstated!!!!....." at the top of your thread was irresponsible. Aren't you the guy who takes Bush to task for the spin he puts on his positions? Don't you think it hurts your own credibility when you come out with such an obvious falsehood, and then try to justify it by claiming that the word "draft" actually means something different than what it is commonly understood to mean?

The present-day military is made up of a lot more than former "kids in inner-city high schools," whatever your implication was in citing them. Sure, there's a sales pitch; there always has been, and the reality of the world we live in today is that virtually everything comes with a sales pitch. But even these presumably gullible inner-city types (that IS what you meant, isn't it?) know that the military exists primarily to fight wars, and that wars involve a lot of killing and dying. Might a lot of them hope that a war doesn't happen during their hitch? Sure they do; I certainly did (and, to be fair, I was one of the lucky ones who served in peacetime; I'm not claiming that my service required any heroics). But the fact is that we have an all-volunteer military, and most Americans want to keep it that way. Those who do volunteer, whether out of patriotism (some), self interest (some more), or a combination of the two (most), generally know what the risks are. I did, and so did the men and women I served with.

There are a lot of legitimate arguments that can be raised about the decision to go to war in Iraq, and about the way that war is being waged. If you want to "win hearts and minds" to your side of the issues, you'd be better off telling the truth. Leave the spin to the spin doctors; there are certainly enough of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:48 PM

The point I was making, W.S., related more to the original article, which I'm beginning to doubt that you have read, about how the military is filling it's needs not from new recruits but from a select group of folks who have served what they thought to be their time. From *their* perspective, having served and being told that can't leave it must seem very much like a "draft", which Mr. Webster defines as "the choosing or takingof an individual or individualsfrom a groupfot some specific purpose, esp. for compulsary military service."

And, KimC, I am not saying these kids are "stupid" as you suggested I had said. I said they are "impressionable". These kids start getting the bite in the 10th grade. Actually, when you look at the commercials on TV, the sponsored racing cars, they'rte getting sold from the time learn to talk and watch TV. And kids will do stuff because of pier pressure and they will do stuff that ain't all that thought out. Hey, for gosh sakes, they are kids. I don't think their decision making skills are quite up to par with folks who have the luxary of being around a little longer. That's why the military goes after them. They are an easier sell than folks who have been out of their teens fir a decade or so and are beginning to learn the consequences of their actions. So it ain't about intellegence but more about maturity. I'll guarentee you that if you had to be 30 years old to volunteer for military duty, we'd have a lot fewer recruits....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Draft Reinstated!!!!......
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Right. I can see why you didn't state it that way. "Something Like a Draft Has Been, Well, Not Restated, Because It Happened Pretty Regularly Before, But They're Doing It And It's Unfair" was too long to fit into the subject line. :D