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Origins: Christmas in the Trenches (McCutcheon)

DigiTrad:
CHRISTMAS 1914
CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Christmas 1914 (Cormac MacConnell) (34)
Christmas Truce (5)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the Trenches (J McCutcheon) (13)
The Christmas Truce (14)
WW 1 christmas song (16) (closed)
BS: Christmas Truce (1914) (806)
Lyr Req: A Silent Night (Christmas 1915) (20)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the trenches (9)
(origins) Origins: Song about Xmas & WWI (3) (closed)
Xmas in the Trenches Survivor Dies (41)
Musical Question - Christmas, 1914 (14)
Lyr Req: Christmas day 1960something? / 1914 (3) (closed)
Chords Req: Christmas in the Trenches (20)
Lyr Req: Belleau Wood (Garth Brooks) (23)
Lyr Req: Christmas in the Trenches (4) (closed)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Christmas in the Trenches [John McCutcheon]


Barb 07 Oct 98 - 11:04 AM
Mountain Dog 07 Oct 98 - 12:26 PM
Joe Offer 08 Oct 98 - 03:54 AM
skw@ 08 Oct 98 - 06:27 AM
Joe Offer 08 Oct 98 - 09:59 PM
John in Brisbane 08 Oct 98 - 10:08 PM
Pete M 12 Oct 98 - 04:17 PM
Roger Himler 12 Oct 98 - 07:28 PM
skw@ 13 Oct 98 - 03:50 AM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 98 - 04:03 AM
skw@ 15 Oct 98 - 04:33 AM
Pete M 15 Oct 98 - 05:44 PM
skw@ 16 Oct 98 - 03:23 AM
Joe Offer 16 Oct 98 - 08:06 PM
Barbara 17 Oct 98 - 12:21 AM
BSeed 17 Oct 98 - 03:34 AM
Joe Offer 17 Oct 98 - 04:32 AM
skw@ 17 Oct 98 - 08:25 AM
Ireland O'Reilly 17 Oct 98 - 01:51 PM
Barbara 17 Oct 98 - 02:05 PM
Joe Offer 17 Oct 98 - 02:12 PM
BSeed 17 Oct 98 - 02:27 PM
Barbara 17 Oct 98 - 05:14 PM
skw@ 20 Oct 98 - 01:19 PM
harpgirl 17 Dec 98 - 07:15 PM
Barbara 17 Dec 98 - 07:26 PM
Alice 17 Dec 98 - 07:37 PM
Harald Schmidt 18 Dec 98 - 01:10 AM
John in Brisbane 18 Dec 98 - 02:52 AM
Harald Schmidt 18 Dec 98 - 10:58 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Dec 98 - 11:26 AM
Brack& 18 Dec 98 - 08:03 PM
Bill Cameron 19 Dec 98 - 12:00 AM
Harald Schmidt 19 Dec 98 - 05:29 AM
Barbara Shaw 19 Dec 98 - 03:28 PM
Barbara Shaw 19 Dec 98 - 03:31 PM
Bill Cameron 19 Dec 98 - 09:57 PM
Joe Offer 14 Nov 02 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,NoMattch 14 Nov 02 - 03:31 PM
Glade 14 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM
David Ingerson 14 Nov 02 - 05:12 PM
Susanne (skw) 14 Nov 02 - 05:41 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 14 Nov 02 - 06:53 PM
mmb 14 Nov 02 - 09:03 PM
Joe Offer 14 Nov 02 - 11:34 PM
open mike 15 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM
Glade 15 Nov 02 - 09:01 AM
GUEST 15 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM
Teribus 18 Nov 02 - 03:51 AM
Santa 18 Nov 02 - 02:52 PM
Seamus Kennedy 18 Nov 02 - 04:31 PM
David Ingerson 18 Nov 02 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,PJ Curtis 19 Nov 02 - 01:17 PM
Seamus Kennedy 20 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM
fox4zero 20 Nov 02 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,integrationconcerts@webmail.co.za 15 Aug 04 - 09:28 AM
open mike 15 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 05 - 03:30 AM
Brakn 31 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 05 - 04:30 AM
open mike 31 Jan 05 - 01:12 PM
Wolfgang 01 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM
Susanne (skw) 01 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Com Seangan 02 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM
GUEST 25 Feb 05 - 02:22 AM
open mike 04 Dec 05 - 01:43 PM
artbrooks 04 Dec 05 - 02:36 PM
GUEST 06 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Bliffnode 03 Dec 20 - 07:20 AM
EBarnacle 05 Dec 20 - 03:25 PM
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Subject: Book
From: Barb
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 11:04 AM

I'm looking for John McCutcheon1s book containing "Christmas in the Trenches" and how I can purchase it.


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Subject: RE:
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 12:26 PM

Dear Barb,

You'll find complete lyrics to "Christmas in the Trenches" in the DT database, if that helps you some. A powerful song, it always gives me chills when I play it or hear it performed.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches - John McCutcheon
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 03:54 AM

Barb, John McCutcheon and his merchandise can be found on the Web at http://www.folkmusic.com/. Lots of lyrics at the site, too.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: skw@
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 06:27 AM

There is another song about the same incident, Mike Harding's 'Christmas 1914', which I prefer (though I haven't analysed my preference in depth). It doesn't seem to be in the DT, but I could bring in the words and some information about this little-known incident. - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 09:59 PM

I'd sure like to see those lyrics if you can come up with them, Susanne. It would be helpful to get anything anybody knows about the story behind this song.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 08 Oct 98 - 10:08 PM

I note that this has no tune in the DT. Can anyone oblige please? It is too good a song for people not to enjoy it in its entirety.

The first version I ever heard was by Danny Doyle in concert. You know that you've got your money's worth whenever you hear a new song that gives you the chills etc.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Pete M
Date: 12 Oct 98 - 04:17 PM

Hi Joe,

The "Christmas truce" of 1914 was/is widely known about in Britain, and fairly extensively documented. The site here gives several published accounts by participants.
In the show/film "Oh what a lovely war" it is intimated that the truce so annoyed the British high command that they ordered an artillary shoot into the area. There is no mention of this in the eye witness accounts at the site above so that may have been included for dramatic effect.

On that point, I recall reading that as part of the research into "tit for tat" behaviour, it was found that in many places on the Western Front, an unofficial modus vivendi was developed whereby each side kept to srtict "rules" of behaviour designed to minimise conflict. On at least one occasion this lead to the local commander crossing no mans land to apologise to his opposite number when an out of area battery shelled "his" opponents thereby breaking the rules.

Apparently, this kind of arrangement by the troops was so effective that it led to the British GCHQ policy of "agressive patrolling" and rotating units into the front line on regular basis to prevent these arrangements based on mutual tust, forming.

The start of the song "Two years ago...." is a bit ambiguous, and I haven't heard of similar truces later in the war, given the changed circumstances, it is less likely.

Incidently, the last line "And on each end of the rifle we're the same" is reminiscent of the second world war pacifist slogan "A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end".

Pete M


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Subject: RE:
From: Roger Himler
Date: 12 Oct 98 - 07:28 PM

I believe John Mc Cutcheon said he first heard this story from a cleaning lady backstage at a concert where he played. The song more or less poured out soon after.

When he played in Europe, he saw some old men who seemed to follow him from concert to concert. He sought them out and learned they were "there" during the Christmas truce and loved the song.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: Lyr Add: CHRISTMAS 1914 (Mike Harding)
From: skw@
Date: 13 Oct 98 - 03:50 AM

Christmas 1914
(by Mike Harding)

Christmas Eve in 1914, stars were gleaming, gleaming bright
And all along the Western front guns were lying still and quiet
Men lay dozing in the trenches, in the cold and in the dark
As far away behind the lines a village dog began tae bark

Some lay thinking of their families, some sang songs to others quiet
Playing brag and rolling fags to pass away the Christmas night
As we watched the German trenches, something moved in no man's land
Through the dark there came a soldier carrying a white flag in his hand

Then from both sides men came running, crossing into no man's land
Through the barbed wire, mud and shell-holes, shyly stood there shaking hands
Fritz he brought cigars and brandy, Tommy brought corned beef and fags
And as they stood there quietly talking, the moon shone down on no man's land

Then Christmas Day we all played football in the mud of no man's land
Tommy brought some Christmas pudding, Fritz brought out a German band
And when they beat us at the football we shared all our grub and drink
Then Fritz showed me a tattered photo of a brown-haired girl back in Berlin

For four days after no side fired, not one shot disturbed the night
For old Fritz and Tommy Atkins, they'd both lost their will to fight
So they withdrew us from the trenches, sent us back behind the lines
They brought fresh troops to take our places and told the guns, Prepare to fire

The next night in 1914, flak was beaming, beaming bright
The orders came, Prepare offensive! Over the top we go tonight
And men stood waiting in the trenches, gazed out across our football park
As all along the Western front the Christmas guns began tae bark

Sung by Arthur Johnstone from Glasgow, who used to run the city's famous Star Club, on his album 'North By North' (1989).

[1987:] In no-man's-land, between the British and the German trenches during the Christmas truce of that year [1914], an extraordinary event occurred. "The night was cold. We sang, they applauded. Our lines were only two hundred feet apart. We played the mouth organ, they sang, then we applauded. They produced a set of bagpipes and played their poetic tunes. Men were waving torches and cheering. We had prepared grog and drank a toast." [Letter] from a German soldier. - From both sides men came running, and soon were fraternizing "in the most genuine possible manner. Every sort of souvenir was exchanged, addresses given and received." A German N.C.O. with an Iron Cross, gained "for conspicuous skill in sniping, started his fellows off on some marching tune. I set the note for the Bonnie Boys of Scotland, and so we went on and ended up with Auld Lang Syne which we all - English, Scots, Irish, Prussians and Wurttembergers - joined in." [Diary] of a British Captain. - From some old rags and cord a makeshift football was made, and by the light of flares the two sides played a game of soccer, their previous deadly activities forgotten. (Notes Danny Doyle, '20 Years A-Growing')

[1988:] At some points a "live and let live" system evolved - a means of existence involving tacit co-operation between the sides, recognizing a rough parity of forces. [...] One was to have an unspoken agreement [...] not to shell latrines nor to open fire during breakfast. Another was to make as much noise as possible before a minor raid, so that the other side could withdraw to their protected bunkers. This limitation on hostilities did not exist everywhere and was stamped on by command when it came to light. But even such informal arrangements as survived could be quickly buried, along with men killed by snipers, by the odd shell, or gas. The fraternization that did go on briefly between the lines on Christmas Day 1914 did not characterize the way the war was fought in the trenches. Violence was always below the surface, ready to explode. (J.M. Winter, The Experience of World War I, 133ff)

The incident is obviously deemed too unimportant to be mentioned in most histories of the Great War. So far this passing reference in Winter, who devotes part of his book to the experience of the front-line soldier, is the only one I've found, and I for one certainly didn't learn about it in school. However, it seems to be alive in the minds of people in Britain, at any rate, or am I reading too much into the quotations below? Before coming across the song I wouldn't have known what they referred to, but the authors must have been sure most of their readers would.
[1996:] Far from kicking footballs in no man's land, the two rivals [The Times and the Telegraph] clashed over the ABC [circulation] figures. (Observer Business, 15 Dec)
[1997:] It is as much Britain as Germany that we should worry about, and we both have a common interest in building Europe. It is the football matches between the trenches on Christmas Day we should remember - not seeing off a mythical Fritz who has long since disappeared. (Will Hutton, Observer 9 Feb)
Sorry I'm not able to submit a tune. Maybe I could send someone (preferably in Germany) a tape, and they'd do it for me? - Susanne

Thanks, Pete M.!


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Subject: RE:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 98 - 04:03 AM

Gee, it would be great to have a tune, Susanne. Any chance you could record the song with RealEncoder (click here) and e-mail it to somebody like Alison who can transcribe it?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: skw@
Date: 15 Oct 98 - 04:33 AM

?????

Thanks for providing the link, Joe. I had a look but it was all Greek to me. I'm hopeless with the technical side of computing, and just now I don't have the time to work on learning something new. (It does look like hard work!) Also, I have a hardware problem - several in fact. My hi-fi is at home, my Internet PC is at work, and anyway, I light a candle every time it doesn't crash for lack of capacity during a session.

I'll ask around. Maybe some friend can help me get the tune to you, but it's going to take a few weeks, I'm afraid. Have patience! - Susanne


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Subject: RE:
From: Pete M
Date: 15 Oct 98 - 05:44 PM

Hi Susanne, don't you mean "It's all geek to me."???

:-) Pete M


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Subject: RE:
From: skw@
Date: 16 Oct 98 - 03:23 AM

My friends in Britain say 'Greek'. I think it gets the idea across nicely, not having learned Greek in school. We had Latin, and I've forgotten most of that, too!
Susanne


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 98 - 08:06 PM

Ah, we tripped you up, Susanne. The original quote was from Shakespeare's Julius Cæsar
But, for my own part, it was Greek to me.
Pete changed that to fit your situation, and you missed it. I know you're living in Germany, but your English is so good I would have sworn you were American (Of course, others among us might say that your English is so good you couldn't possibly be an American....). Could it be that English is not your native language?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: Barbara
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 12:21 AM

Joe, I've got the record in the house, give me time and I can probably transcribe it.
Soon as I finish sewing this Halloween costume that I'm working on, except when I take a Mudcat break.
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE:
From: BSeed
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 03:34 AM

I've wanted to load the midi transcription program, but it seems to be available only to windows users (I have a composing program and a midi keyboard--ConcertWare Music Studio--but I don't know if it can read that kind of script...but I sure want that song. Have you ever seen the movie "Queen of Hearts"? It's on much the same theme, not the same kind of narrative at all, but reading this thread made me recall it vividly. --seed


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 04:32 AM

Hi, Seed - if I recall correctly, you have a Mac. The Mac version of MIDITXT hasn't come out yet. The available one is a DOS program, which also works in Windows.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: skw@
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 08:25 AM

Joe: -:)-:)-:)
I never did like Shakespeare all that much, apart from the Scottish play, of course. And yes, or no, English isn't my native language. Thanks for the compliment! I used to have an American accent at school, hated it and got rid of it. Nowadays I'm told I sound vaguely Scottish. However, I've since learned that the Americans actually speak an older form of English, and thus closer to the origins of the language, than the vulgarly progressive brothers (and sisters) back home.
Keep in mind for further use - it's fairly easy to trip me up with Americanisms. - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Ireland O'Reilly
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 01:51 PM

Greetings, Everybody!!!

Oh, I feel like I've been gone from here forever! I've recently moved, and my old 486 only has 4 megs of RAM; consequently, I have been able to do little more than email. Well, I think i've got up enough $$$ now to soon get myself a new computer of my very own. :)

Christmas in the Trenches... John McDermott does a lovely version of this song on his "Danny Boy" album. The album is all war songs. It's great.

Cheers,

Ireland


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Subject: Tune Add: CHRISTMAS IN THE TRENCHES (J McCutcheon)
From: Barbara
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 02:05 PM

Here ya go, crew. Try this.
Blessings,
Barbara

Click to play


ABC format:

X:1
T:
M:4/4
Q:1/4=120
K:C
G,8|E2F2G2F2|E3DC2C2|A,3A,A,2G,2|F,6C2|B,3B,B,2C2|
D2C2B,2A,2|A,3G,G,2A,2|G,6G,2|E2F2G2F2|E2D2C2C2|
A,3A,A,2G,2|F,6C2|B,3B,B,2C2|D2C2B,2C2|C6C2|
B,B,3B,2C2|D2C2B,2A,2|A,2G,2G,A,3|G,6E2|E2D2C2D2|
E3DC2C2|A,3A,B,2C2|D6G,2|E2F2G2F2|E2D2C4|
A,A,3A,2G,2|F,6C2|B,3B,B,2C2|D2C2B,3C|C19/4||


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 02:12 PM

Thanks for the tune, barbara. You know, the tune sounded familiar to me the first time I heard the song. could McCutcheon have taken it from an older tune? Which one?
Anybody got the tune to Christmas 1914?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE:
From: BSeed
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 02:27 PM

Suzanne: I noticed that nobody bothered to explain the Americanism involved to you: "It's all geek to me" is a pun--"geek" in this usage means someone whose brain has a scuzzy link to his computer. --seed


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Subject: RE:
From: Barbara
Date: 17 Oct 98 - 05:14 PM

Ayah, 'seed, and if she doesn't know 'geek', is she going to know 'scuzzy'? I can't offhand remember what piece of computer jargon it is slang for - 'SC-something'. Suzanne, geek is like nerd, is like hacker (some will tell you that some of these words are more positive than others). And it describes someone who learned all their social skills from a computer. (which is the only place they need them anyway, since that's where they spend all their time anyway). (Unlike the rest of us, who just Mudcat..).
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE:
From: skw@
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 01:19 PM

okay, folks, getting the idea ...
What else DO you need if you've got Mudcat. You certainly are great companions and make me laugh more often than some of my friends over here! (Quite apart from the odd bit of useful information I've garnered from these waves? currents? ...
Thanks bseed and Barbara. I did have a vague idea what seed was driving at, so now I know.
Who invented Mudcat? He (she? - no, it was probably Max) deserves a gong! - Keep it up! Susanne


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Subject: RE:
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Dec 98 - 07:15 PM

Tonight, I am going to build a fire in the fireplace and sing this song. I hope for peace on earth...harpgirl


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Subject: RE:
From: Barbara
Date: 17 Dec 98 - 07:26 PM

So mote it be.


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Subject: RE:
From: Alice
Date: 17 Dec 98 - 07:37 PM

Great discussion. Thank you for all the background information on both songs.


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Subject: RE:
From: Harald Schmidt
Date: 18 Dec 98 - 01:10 AM

John McGrath, a singer from Northern Ireland, recorded John McCutcheon's "Christmas in the Trenches" more than 10 years ago on a tape called " A man you don't need every day". I am still looking for that tape (or vinyl or cd or realaudio or ...) again. Any ideas where I can get it again?


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Subject: RE:
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 18 Dec 98 - 02:52 AM

Harald, Danny Doyle does a beautiful version on a CD released maybe 8 years ago. Sorry but I don't recall the name.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE:
From: Harald Schmidt
Date: 18 Dec 98 - 10:58 AM

Thanks John, I'll ask and look for it.


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Subject: RE:
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Dec 98 - 11:26 AM

Actually, Geek is an old carnival term, dating way back befor computers. A geek was a freak-show "performer" whose act consisted of biting ther heads off live chickens.


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Subject: RE:
From: Brack&
Date: 18 Dec 98 - 08:03 PM

Another singer from Northern Ireland has put on his CD. Joe McShane.

I thought it was excellent.

Mick Bracken


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Subject: RE: Xmas in the Trenches
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 12:00 AM

I think the tune to the song is McCutcheons, but the instrumental break (a viola?) is the Irish tune & song
"The Minstrel Boy"


To that part you can sing:


"The minstrel boy to the wars has gone
In the halls of death you'll find him
His father's sword he has girded on
And his great harp strung (swung? hung?) behind him"


Christmas in the Trenches is one of those songs that has gotten around a lot without credit to the author--he may be a big star to us folkies but most people will never hear of him! I've heard an Irish band who should know better attribute it to "Francis Tolliver"!


While a lot of Canadians think John McDermott wrote it, or that it's an old song.

I guess that proves its quality, but I find I'm a bit annoyed at performers who sing it every night without crediting the writer.

As for the original incident, no doubt its significant that it happened in 1914, a time of relative innocence when they thought the war with Germany would be over in a few months. If only!
Bill


Bill


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Subject: Lyr Add: ES IST AN DER ZEIT (Ger. 'Green Fields...
From: Harald Schmidt
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 05:29 AM

Dear Bill,

you are right but also the Germans thought that WW I would be over in a short time. There are German songs of WW I, most of them against the struggle. Some are original written by soldiers before they died. Some are written later by popular singers - like "Christmas in the trenches". One of my favourites is the singable German translation of Eric Bogle's "Green Fields Of France" - (it's in the DB - Filename NOMANLD) written by Hannes Wader and called ...

ES IST AN DER ZEIT

Weit in der Champagne im Mittsommergrün,
da wo zwischen Grabkreuzen Mohnblumen blühn,
da flüstern die Gräser und wiegen sich leicht
im Wind der sanft über das Gräberfeld streicht.

Auf deinem Kreuz finde ich, toter Soldat,
deinen Namen nicht, nur Ziffern, und jemand hat
die Zahl neunzehnhundertundsechzehn gemalt,
und du warst nicht einmal neunzehn Jahre alt.

CH: Ja auch dich haben sie schon genauso belogen,
so wie sie es mit uns heute immer noch tun.
Und du hast ihnen alles gegeben:
deine Kraft, deine Jugend, dein Leben.

Hast du, toter Soldat, mal ein Mädchen geliebt?
Sicher nicht, denn nur dort, wo es Frieden gibt,
können Zärtlichkeit und Vertrauen gedeihn.
Warst Soldat, um zu sterben, nicht, um jung zu sein.

Vielleicht dachtest du dir, ich falle schon bald,
nehme mir mein Vergnügen wie es kommt mit Gewalt.
Dazu warst du entschlossen, hast dich aber dann
vor dir selber geschämt und es doch nie getan.

Es blib nur das Kreuz als die einzige Spur
von deinem Leben. Doch hör meinen Schwur
für den Frieden zu kämpfen und wachsam zu sein.
Fällt die Menschheit noch einmal auf Lügen herein,

dann kann es geschehn, daß bald niemand mehr lebt,
niemand, der die Milliarden von Toten begräbt.
Doch es finden sich mehr unhd mehr Menschen bereit,
diesen Krieg zu verhindern, es ist an der Zeit.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 24-Jun-02.


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Subject: RE:
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 03:28 PM

This song will be performed live tonight (Saturday, 12/19/1998) by Mike McCann, of the New Haven area.

The Shaws & friends will be doing a carol sing at the Veterans Medical Center in West Haven, CT, USA, followed by the annual family reunion of the McCann Clan (known as the "Phamtom Nativity Choir"), during which they do an amazing program of old and new Christmas songs, including "Christmas in the Trenches." If you would like to join the carol sing and/or hear the McCann program, be there at 6:30. Bring cookies.

Mike has recorded this song on his new CD called "Soldier Songs."


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Subject: RE:
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 03:31 PM

P.S.

VA center on West Spring Street, West Haven, CT, building 2, 2nd floor dining room.

And that's "phantom" not "phamtom."


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Subject: RE: good point Harald
From: Bill Cameron
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 09:57 PM

Quite so Harald, except of course nobody called it World War I at the time. The Great War (oxymoron) or The War to End Wars (another oxymoron). Whatever you call it, it was a horrible bloody, muddy mess and historians are still arguing over what it was about.

It's interesting that the songs that seem to have staying power are the ones lamenting the destruction of humanity, not the patriotic jingoist ones. (Unless they get institutionalized like The Star Spangled Banner or The Maple Leaf Forever.)

Nice to see that that translation exists.

Peace. Bill


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 01:59 PM

I thought this post from Bob Bolton deserved a place here.
-Joe Offer-
Thread #37092   Message #517481
Posted By: Bob Bolton
30-Jul-01 - 12:08 AM
Thread Name: Know any hard-hitting christmas songs?
Subject: RE: Know any hard-hitting christmas songs?

G'day IanB,

I was working down, thinking of suggesting Ewan McColl's Moving On Song ... but I see the Keith suggested it. It is subtle ... but has a hard hit for those who think ...

On another point, John McCutcheon's Christmas in the Trenches and the events of 25 December 1914 came to my mind the other day when, in a totally different line of research, I came upon the note that "The Germans first threw grenades in to English trenches on 27 December 1914".

There is no mention of dates for English grenade use, but they had seen trench warfare in the Russo-Japanese war of a few tears before and went into WWI with one crude grenade ... a dodgy glass jar of high explosive on the end of a stick and fitted with a contact fuse. Many struck the trench wall and killed the thrower. It all brings you back to earth even more abruptly that John McCutcheon's last verse.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST,NoMattch
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 03:31 PM

I've heard that the French ranks also had their truces during the war and on one particular day in May 1917, the soldiers refused to go back to the trenches. Many were court-martialled and 54 were shot by the firing squad.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Glade
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM

This discussion is way fascinating. Last Christmas I gave my husband a book that had just come out on the 1914 occurence. Can't remember the title. I'll find out. It's under something around here someplace.
Glade


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: David Ingerson
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:12 PM

From my conversations with the granddaughter of one of the (German)participants I gathered that there were a number of such incidents, that there were hundreds of desertions in the following days, weeks, months, and that the following Christmas the generals made sure it wouldn't happen again by ratcheting up the war to its greatest intensity. My friend's grandfather became a life-long pacifist that night.

I would love to get a copy of the book you mentioned, Glade. Please do find the title and post it! I'm sure I'm not alone. Someone mentioned they had never learned it in school. Me neither. I learned about it from John's song. But our children deserve to learn about such events, such decisions, and such human potential.

David


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 05:41 PM

Please dig it out, Glade!


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 06:53 PM

If John McCutcheon's story of how he came to write "Christmas in the Trenches" is true, he had not heard the story until not long before he wrote the song. In his live shows he tells about being cornered by a theater custodian after he had finished his set and having the story told to him.   

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: mmb
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 09:03 PM

John will be here in the Tampa Bay area on Nov. 23! Yayy! I hope it's close enough to the Christmas Season for him to do Christmas in the Trenches. Or maybe with unemployment so high, he'll resurrect Detroit December.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 02 - 11:34 PM

Hi, MMB. I have to admit that at one McCutcheon concert, I wrote a request that he not sing "Christmas in the Trenches. He didn't honor my request. I think I've been to a dozen McCutcheon concerts, and he's sung "Trenches" at every one. I guess it's like asking Arlo not to sing "Alice's Restaurant."
It IS a good song, but I have the same cut on at least four CD's.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: open mike
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM

There is also a song about this truce by Redmond O'Colonies
a fellow who now livce in the san francisco bay area. I
can't find the tape just now-i am sure it was not the McCutcheon
version but it might be the other 1914 song. I love to sing John McCutcheon's Christmas in the trenches each year live at my local
community radio station during their folk show and cider and cookie
party. Is anyone else here in the Chico California area? If so,
I will invite you to join in a horse-drawn wagon ride and carolling
party!!


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Glade
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:01 AM

Found it! "Silent Night : The Story of the World War I Christmas Truce" by Stanley Weintraub was published in 2001 by Simon & Schuster. The hardbound copy's ISBN # is 0-6848-7281-1. Maybe it's out in paperback by now.
Glade


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 09:23 AM

See the "What a Wonderful Holiday Concert Idea" thread for more information on the song.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 03:51 AM

Hi Glade,

Thanks for mentioning the book "Silent Night", have read it and it was extremely interesting. The impression given of a sort of "universal" truce breaking out over the Christmas period 1914 is shown to be incorrect, it only occured sporadically along the line and depended on which regiments were facing each other. I liked the bit in the book where the Germans warned the British that they were about to be relieved by a Prussian Regiment who might not go along with the "truce". Another where the occupants of both sets of trenches were ordered to fight and came to a common understanding that while both would still fire, the shots would be fired into the air or in such a way that they would not cause any casualties.

It is a very good read - highly recommended.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Santa
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 02:52 PM

This is Mrs Santa.Coope,Boyes and Simpson have a complete show about the truce. It was originally developed in Belgium with a Flemish choir and narration by written by the man who is now curator of a war museum(sorry, can't remember his name). They first performed it in the cathedral at Ypres. Last year it was translated into English and performed in the north of England using a choir of about 70 drawn from the area. I was fortunate enough to sing in that. Yesterday we finished the third performance this year. The songs are available on a CD called "Kerstbestand", which is Flemish for "Christmas Truce". This was recorded by C,B and S in conjunction with the Flemish Choir, but don't worry, most of it is in English.
If you're interested in the CD, suggest you contact C B and S via No Masters cooperative at www.nomasters.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 04:31 PM

Our own Chordstrangler, Mickey McConnell, has yet another beautiful song on the same subject. I believe it was written by his brother Cormac. He can be PM'd here at Mudcat on how to get a hold of his CD.
Here we have three different and equally excellent songs on the same topic.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: David Ingerson
Date: 18 Nov 02 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, Glade. I will be looking it up soon.

It's gratifying to hear that three songs, a choral stage production, and a book have been produced about these significant events. I hope they stimulate many more such works. Events like these deserve to be widely known. Humans deserve to know about events like these!

David


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST,PJ Curtis
Date: 19 Nov 02 - 01:17 PM

Seamus (above) mentioned the Cormac Mc Connell song 'A Silent Night (Christmas 1915)'..a stunning. show-stopper of a song...when reduced me to tears when first I heard the author himself sing it for me.
I had the pleasure of producing this song for the Clare singer Jerry Lynch , which was included on his '98 album "Dimming Of The Day' (Dolphin). Check it out.
pjc


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 01:46 AM

Right, PJ. Jerry did a magnificent version, and like Mickey's, it would tear the heart out of you. Great job on producing that album, by the way.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: fox4zero
Date: 20 Nov 02 - 02:24 AM

About 10-15 years ago,for several years, there was an annual Xmas presentation on PBS call "Little Gifts" which consisted of a half dozen pieces. One piece related a Xmas truce and was attributed to a letter written by a young English officer who was killed in action a few months later.

There were other pieces by Dylan Thomas, Teddy Roosevelt....the entire program was very beautiful.

Larry


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST,integrationconcerts@webmail.co.za
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:28 AM

This is a message to reach hopefully John Mc Cutcheon singer songwriter,guitarist,violonist and hammer dulcimer musician from the states.My name is Bieke from South africa and I would like to get in touch with John to see if we can organise also with him integration concerts in our country.For the moment we work already together with artists of 12 different countries.
Please come back to us and I'll explain you the concept in the hope we can arrange and work it out for you to tour in SA
all the best
Bieke


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: open mike
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

if you wish to reach john McCutcheon, going through his web site is the most direct way. IT is not likely that he is a member of or reads this list. I am sure there is an e-mail link on his website at http://www.folkmusic.com/.


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Subject: RE: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:30 AM

Another question about McCutcheon's "Christmas in the Trenches": there's an instrumental tune used as a break a couple of times in the recording - sounds like a march, or some sort of military tune. Anybody know the name of that tune?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches - tune source
From: Brakn
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM

Joe, could it be "The Minstrel Boy" as previously mentioned by Bill Cameron
Date: 19 Dec 98 - 12:00 AM


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches - tune source
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:30 AM

Thanks, Mick - yes, it's Minstrel Boy. I scanned this thread, but I must have skipped past the answer. I spent an hour looking for an answer, both here and at McCutcheon's site - and here it was under my nose.
I used the song last week - I'm home-schooling my stepson, and we were covering World War I.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: open mike
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:12 PM

i thought it was the "Internationale"
the instrumental that John M. plays


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM

Last Christmas the incident was 90 years old and got a good coverage in German newspapers. Some bits I remember:

The two parties agreed not to shoot at each other after the event and not to mention it 'further up'. But that failed. On the one hand the neighbouring companies noticed something unusual and on the other hand, the German headquarter noticed one war statistics looked wrong:

This part of the front had much less than the expected number of dead and wounded (when I read that I imagined them phoning the British headquarter and inquiring what was wrong on their part...). The telltale sign, however, was the sharp decrease of ammunition used on that front. Within 14 days after the event, both sides replaced the respective companies by new forces and the war statistics were quickly within the expected range again. The German headquarter decided to be quiet about the reasons for the replacement.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

Apparently it wasn't an isolated incident but a lot more widespread, also happening where German and French troops were facing each other. (The German author Carl Zuckmayer talks about it in his autobiography.)

At least three books have been written on it:

Stanley Weintraub, Silent Night: The Story of the World War I Christmas Truce (Simon & Schuster, NY 2001)
Michael Juergs, Der kleine Frieden im grossen Krieg (2003)
Malcolm Brown, Christmas Truce (????)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:00 PM

There was a documentary about this, which aired on UKTV HISTORY a couple of weeks ago.

They talked to people who were there, and quoted official sources, private letters home, etc.

The story was slightly different from those detailed above. They said that this took place all along the English/German front, and that there were a large number of football matches, including one with the well documented scoreline Germans 3 British 2 (amazingly not decided on penalties......my comment, not theirs), and one played with a real football brought over by a British Tommy.

They also said that the French refused to have anything to do with it, and remained in their trenches.

I suppose there are as many versions as there are storytellers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:55 PM

The most moving eye witness account of the wonderful human event and the Spirit of Christmas is best captured in the autobiography of Fr. Wille Doyle S.J. who was chaplain to the British forces. He was with the Irish soldiers in the front line. He recalls how one 'Paddy' a bit the worse for wear stayed on in no man's land after the cease-fire ended, singing his intoxicated heart out.

All his comrades kept shouting " Get down, Paddy. Get down". Eventually, he got the message and stumbled back into the trench. But the Gerries held their fire until he had got down. Then all the horrors of the war broke loose again. Read it. It is moving.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 02:22 AM

There is a most moving version of the song by a Scottish/Irish duo called the "Men of Worth". You can hear a sample of the song on their newest CD called Pattern Dance. Check it out on their website: www.menofworth.com (click "Recordings"). You will not be disappointed! Please listen and tell me what you think.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: open mike
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 01:43 PM

I have been playing this song recently and am reminded every time
of both the power of war and the power of music. I have a friend
who cries to think of the horrors of war every time she hears this
song. She especially remembers a medic who helped a young girl and
then the girl and her family were killed--blown to bit--the next
day. I was looking for the thread about the last survivor of the
truce passing away lately at a very advanced age..


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 02:36 PM

This one, Laurel? survivor.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: GUEST,Bliffnode
Date: 03 Dec 20 - 07:20 AM

If anyone is still looking for a copy of "Christmas in the Trenches" I have a 7" single by John McGrath with that and "Too Long Away" on the B side. It is listed on Discogs, you can message me on there if intrested.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Christmas in the Trenches
From: EBarnacle
Date: 05 Dec 20 - 03:25 PM

There was a dramatization of this incident last night on our local Public Television station. It was followed by behind the scenes discussion from the actors. I believe the company that did it was from the Midwest.
Recommend it when it comes you way,


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