BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:13 PM

Well, he'll certainly be remembered as one.... One of his own making. And the memories might not be what he'd like.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:28 PM

The only reason he is a wartime president is because he chose to become one.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

Jack, I think you misunderstand me here, to borrow from the bard
"I come to question Bush, not to praise him".

The pres. has been posing as a "war hero" at every opportunity. Landing on the carrier deck in full flight gear with all the GI regalia with his name on it including the jet. I don't recall any other pres. appearing before the military in quite that way ever before.

But he has never called himself a war hero, only a wartime president. That and a dollar will get you a cheap cup of coffee and should have noting to do with his re-election which is what he is using it for. I was just pointing out all of the democrats that were "war presidents" who are still villified just for being democrats. why should it be positive for one side and negative for the other. Sorry for the drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:29 AM

I'd think that the crew of the boat would be able to substantiate coming under fire. As for the severity of the wound, the CO had the option of filing for the medal for Kerry or not. If the wound wasn't severe enough in the CO's eyes, he shouldn't have filed for the medal.

Then again, I've known of people who got the PH for very trivial things, but they happened during combat (catching a splinter on the way to a bunker during a mortar attack, for instance).

Frankly, I don't care. It was 35 years ago, and if there were doubts they should have been resolved long, long ago. To my mind, he's got three Purple Hearts.

Mind you, I'd much rather see BOB Kerrey running for President....

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:28 PM

Rapaire, as I understand it from an article in the Boston Globe, at the time the standard was a wound or injury while under enemy fire which required medical attention. Kerry's commander was surprise to find that Kerry's boat had come under fire on the mission and thought the wound looked more like a scratch from fingernail than anything else. That could explain why no one's come up with a medical report for the wound. It didn't require treatment.

As I said, it sounds too late to complain about it now. Even if it were true, I refuse to hold Kerry responsible for getting an "undeserved" Purple Heart if the request went through channels and the military awarded it. The Navy is always right. More to the point, I know if I had had 3 Purple Hearts regardless of worthy I was of them, I'd have been out of there, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:19 PM

If you want to bitch and moan about something, don't wait 35 years to do it. If you do, it might seem like you were, perhaps, being opportunistic (shall we say?).

You get wounded by enemy action, you get a Purple Heart. The severity of the wound is irrelevant to the award.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 04:19 PM

His commanding officer should rightly address that to whoever put Kerry's name in for the first one. Of course, that might mean pissing off a higher rank.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM

Yeah, I woudl say we can let that one lie still.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

"Anyway, this has nothing to do with Kerry's medals which as far as anyone knows were justly earned."

The only one to question that lately has been his former commanding officer who raised doubts about the appropriateness of the first purple heart. Given that he's nearly 35 years late bringing that up...

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

As usual for internet conversations someone read Rapier's or someone else's remarks and decided I had belittled servicemen and women.



It seems some people need a devil's advocate to rant at regarding their war experience. Rant on, you have a right to be angry.

I have not judged those in military service but historicly judgments are made.


We placed distinctions between the SS and the Vermacht after WW II and the same distinctions still apply to invading armies.
Those that are drafted by the Nazis were thought to be somehow less culpable for war crimes. One would want to be judged by their piers in such matters. Judging yourself of war crimes is a lifetime anguish that probably stirs anger within all those that have fought wars.


Often overlooked is the fact that there are lifetime scars from fighting against war as well as fighting in a war. Some are victims and some are heros but all are wounded in some way.

IMO unwounded chicken hawks like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld who fight for unjustified war are the most vile of all criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

The Pass is a place I am going to visit before I die. Just to pay my respects. There, and Dieppe.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

The history behind the betrayal Brucie mentions is fascinatin':

"THE BATTLE AT THERMOPYLAE: The pass at Thermopylae was a superb place to withstand an attack. Because of its natural narowness, even with an army as large as the Persians had, only a small number could actually fight at any one time. This enables very few men to hold off enormous armies for long amounts of time.

The Greek army, amounting to 10,000 soldiers, did manage to hold back the Persians for a time. Some believe that the Greeks could have stopped the invasion right there at Thermopylae. There are two reasons given why this did not happen. The first was that a traitor named Ephialtes showed the Persians a way to outflank the Greeks, by revealing to them a secret passage. The large Persian army was traveling in three groups, each taking different paths through the mountains. However, due to this turnover, the Greeks were outflanked and on the edge of defeat. In an amazing display of bravery King Leonidas of Sparta remained behind with 300 of his troops and 700 Thespians in order to hold back the Persians while the rest made their retreat. Leonidas and his troops managed to hold the Persians just long enough for the rest of the Greek forces to fall back to a better position, although they all sacrificed their lives to do so. Moreover the losses suffered by the Persians in the meantime were extremely heavy.

After the defeat at Thermopylae, Sparta decided to fall back to the original plan of defense. Athens was quickly evacuated and her people fled to the island of Salamis. With nothing standing in the Persians' way, they moved in, sacked and burned the entire city of Athens (including the Acropolis and the Parthenon..). Once Xerxes learned where the people of Athens had fled to he decided to launch a naval assault, a fight that would be called the Battle of Salamis."

---

Anyway, this has nothing to do with Kerry's medals which as far as anyone knows were justly earned.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:33 PM

GUEST's insecurities show.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:07 PM

shiver Whenever I see someone claim to know who "Guest" is, I'm always afraid they think 'tis I. For the record, it isn't.

Do my insecurities show?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

He was also the guy who sold out the Spartans to Xerxes. He was a traitor to his country.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM

"Ephialtes was a democratic reformer in Athens in the early years of the 5th century BCE. Evidence about him is scanty, although we can learn a certain amoung from Plutarch's biography of Cimon, who was Ephialtes' main political opponent (Plut. Cim.). Around 462 BCE, Ephialtes brought about changes to the Court of the Areopagus. He sponsored laws and decrees that removed many powers from the Areopagus and gave them to the People's Court or the Assembly. Because the Areopagus, consisting of former archons serving on the body for life, was the least democratic of Athens' political institutions, the reforms of Ephialtes can be said to have completed Athens' transformation into a radical democracy."

From a google of the name. Ya learn something every day on the Cat, eh??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM

GUEST: In another age your name was Ephialtes.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Interesting perspective, Rapaire. I wonder what there is behind it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM

No, JtS, I'm not angry with GUEST. Just telling the truth about GUEST.

GUEST doesn't want the truth known, because GUEST is a Tom Ridgeback, a Quisling who's sold its soul for less silver than Judas would have. I've seen this sort of thing before -- something rants and raves and is far more than anyone else, something who knows it all, an expert who actually had the information, the websites and so on supplied to it by the puppetmasters who makes it dance.

There is no anger in knowing the truth. Only sorrow that another soul has been sold.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:51 AM

You totally overestimate GUEST, People say nasty things as guest to get a reaction from people who are not GUEST. If you react with anger, the GUESTS accomplish their objective.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM

GUEST, by your statements you have insulted myself and others here. You have insulted those men and women, from every nation, who have served in the Armed Forces of their country. You spout the old, oft-repeated, unthinking, propoganda that I heard in the '60s and which I understand was puked up about the Korean Conflict in the early 1950s.

This leads me to one inescapable conclusion.

GUEST, you are a plant. You are spewing this stuff in all directions to see who will agree with you. Your puppetmasters in the Dept. of Homeland Security or the FBI or the CIA monitor this thread and will post surveillance on, and possible arrest, those who do agree with you.

In brief, GUEST, you are a fink. What we used to call a "narc." A plant. A front for Those In Power. Your very words and ideas betray you, echoing what the FBI and other groups learned in the '60s. You are a Judas, worse than Judas, in that Judas betrayed only one person and you want to betray many, an anonymous Judas to whom no one will ever be able to put a name or face -- save the puppetmasters who pull your strings.

Continue on your mission of betrayal, marionette, but remember that when the work of the puppetmaster is over the puppet is broken and discarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 03:34 AM

GUEST: I'm trying to see things from your point of view but I can't stick my head that far up my ass. The implication that all vets are Calleys is a bit much. No, too much. What a clump of f#cked up misery you are. Take the cucumber from another thread and put it gently in you ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:59 PM

Now here's a story about some soon to be honorable, respectable vets. One of those being court martialed is described by virtually everyone who knows him in just those sorts of terms. I guess the power just went to their heads, and made them a bit giddy.

BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM

To return to sanity ( or as I originally mistyped Sadanity )

"But "there are still pockets of torture" - and some of them are in places within the present American sphere of interest, such as Ukbekistan.

In Iraq most of the people killed have been non-combatant Iraqis.   Killed by both sides, but mostly by occupation forces. The Iraqis fighting in Fallujah and Najaf are very largely people who detested Saddam and were happy to see him overthrown.

It's a mess. It's always a mess, and people do the best they can and make different judgements about what that is."

Kevin - your sources please ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM

Sorry. I do not have your eloquence with words. "Eat me fuckface" was the best I could do. I too know who the GUEST is.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

Don't Sweat it Mick.

For a while now, I haven't been reading any posts by Anon guests. Its a source of tranquility to ignore them, almost Zen like.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:30 PM

You Bush and the boys DID swear to uphold the constitution? In that case they should have been given a test to see if they understood it.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:28 PM

I find it the height of hypocrisy, never mind arrogance, as well as delusional, that our GUEST would have an issue with someone cursing at her. On any number of occasions that I had responded and shown the faults in the arguments/posts, the response from this poster was as blue as it could be. I am reminded of the time that crude sexual innuendo was the only response that could be mustered.

You are a joke.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Oh, JtS, that vow went out the window in the first 24 hours. He's espoused changing the Consitution to his own whimsy rather thsn defend it repeatedly.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

Chief, Fox News has been calling him a hero. John McCain is saying that Bush and Kerry "both served honourably" as if their records were equal. Personally, I am concerned about Bush's stance about the war. He and his people are not listening to the people with experience. I respect General Powell's opinions about War and about this war in position. The people who Bush is listening to. The famous Chicken hawks talk about Pax Americana, world leadership and world peace through US force. But they seem to have no idea about the blood that will cost. I wish some of them had served. The policies of Gitmo are not those of someone who has sworn to protect the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM

Guest, Rapaire:

You guys are both blowing smoke, and would have to do a lot better than that. You're not going to automatically parse individual posters and their messages out of the middle of an HTML stream just by adding it to a kill file, no matter where you redirect it. You'll have to code the parser to null the messages from the stream while preserving the rest of the file. I can think of a lot of things I would prefer to do with my time. Practice tolerance, for example.

Sorry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:09 PM

Now, Rob, all I'm saying is this is only an issue when the Democrats put up a war hero. Dubya's never claimed any hero status, as you well know. When their guy lied and pulled strings to keep from going to Viet Nam and then fluffed his anti-war record to boot, it's a completely different story and no one dared compare his record with heros you acknowledge.

(P.S. Rumsfeld graduated from Princeton just after the Korean war and served as a aviator and flight instructor in the Navy. He's too old for Viet Nam and too young for Korea or WWII.)

Haven't seen you here in a while. Suffering withdrawals with TTT down?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

I is a wartime President (not war hero, not warrior)

That's the claim. So was FDR, So was Kennedy, So was LBJ, So was Clinton unless you don't want to call Somalia and the actions in the former soviet states "not wars". So he missed Vietnam, where was he during Granada? Panama? Desert Storm 1?

We've got Guest and others claiming that the military murders everyone everywhere we're sent and that war is useless, then we've got Mary saying we're not involved enough! What's a poor serviceman to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM

Dear GUEST:

I have been using the Internet, both as a user and as an administrator, for about fifteen (15) years now. I have been using the World Wide Web since about 1993. I am quite aware of the function of a "kill file." I am also aware of netiquette and the responsibilities of visitors in forums and such places where they are not members. Since you criticize my knowledge and the knowledge of others, I feel that this is the only correct action to take:

/user/GUEST > /dev/null

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Add a bellicose Bill O'Reilly to the hero status list. He evidently did not serve in any capacity. Born in 1949, graduated high school in 1967, graduated college 1971.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:41 PM

Gee whiz Strick. Your buddy Bush is claiming war hero status that he never had. Like Hitler did, he is wearing military uniforms to bask in the respect this country gives to people who chose to serve. Dole was a war hero, So was Bush's Dad. Bush chose not to risk his precious little ass, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld had other priorities yet they are presented as the best people to lead this country i wartime by such "patriots" as Karen Hughes, Ann Coulter, Tucker Carlson and David Frum. This isn't a government its a bloody Woody Allen movie.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM

Apparently you fellas don't get out on the internet much. A killfile is a little tech trick used when you don't want to see any posts from a person one considers to be a flaming idiot. It makes the internet experience much more enjoyable, when you don't have to put up with people who say things like "eat me fuckface".

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

You guys misunderstand Guest -- a kill file is a list of names on a computer from whom one does not accept messages, filtering them out.

At least I hope that's what he-she-it meant....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:18 PM

Cool, Amos. Now show me a comparison for the last 3 elections and convince me the Democrats treat this issue consistently.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:09 PM

GUEST: Get me good the first time because you won't get a second chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

http://www.jordansplace.net/politics/html/compare.html compares the two service records.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

Please do, GUEST. Remember though: I shoot back, and I'm a good shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Strick
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

"Here's what I meant in my earlier post: considering that most Democrats (at least the ones that I know personally, anyway) are anti-war, it seems odd to me that a potential Democratic candidate would capitalize on his war service."

In the 1992 and 1996 elections, Democrats tried to make prior service a non-issue and even criticized Dole for trying to trade on his war hero status. It's all politics and playing the odds. I don't think either side really believes what they say about this, they just want to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

Kim. I think you will find that Democrats like most people are not antiwar when war is required. Unlike, uncritical supporters of Bush and his Chicken Hawk cabinet, they are against the Iraq war because it was not required and because it is being handled very poorly.

The Bushies constantly argue that Bush is a "wartime president" and thet his "leadership" is required in these trying times. The Democrats rightly or wrongly think that Kerry's experince would make him a better wartime leader than Bush. Give Cheney and the other string pullers some credit for slyness. They knew that once this war started the US would have no choice but to try and finish it.

People have a right to question Bush's courage and military leadership. That is what he is campaigning on. How can his people parade him around in a flightsuit under a banner saying "Mission Accomplished" then say that it is dirty politics to question his right to wear that suit and to question his judgement for claiming that "Major combat has ended". losing 110 soldiers and marines,who knows how many Humvees and Iraqi policemen are not major combat, wahile fighting dudes in pickup trucks with Abrams tanks was major combat? I would think the major combat would be the combat in which the US takes significant casualties. What goes on in that man's brain?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:12 PM

Here's what I meant in my earlier post: considering that most Democrats (at least the ones that I know personally, anyway) are anti-war, it seems odd to me that a potential Democratic candidate would capitalize on his war service. It seems like he would be more likely to capitalize on his war protest instead - but that's a good way to alienate the older veterans who may not appreciate him throwing away his medals or ribbons or whatever they were.

Military service is NOT a prerequisite to holding the office of President, and a war hero does not necessarily make a good president. U.S. Grant may have won the Civil War, but he had one of the most corrupt administrations in American history, because he was too trusting of the people around him.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

I saw Karen Hughes interviewed the other day. About 4 times she spoke about how much she and Bush were above trashing Kerry, Just before she trashed Kerry. In here own way she is a stupid petty and purile as Bush.

I saw another news segment which made a lot of sense to me. I don't remember his name or even the network, but one comentator said a coulple of things that struck me as rather wise.

The first was in answer to Karen Hughes and her criticism of Kerry. He said no matter what you say about what a war hero did with his medals, you are still talking about a war hero and his medals.

He also said that the people who will decide the election, those who are not decided. Aren't paying any attention to all of this noise and they won't pay attention until October.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM

YEs, please!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM

Time to put some of you children in the kill file, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:00 PM

"Those who are not with us are against us!"
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

Excuse me, GUEST, but I heard that bullshit back in the '60s. I thought it was simpleminded then and I think it's simpleminded now. It died in the hail of bullets at Kent State when the realization broke that yes, there WERE real bullets in the guns and yes, The Man COULD be pushed too far.

And no, I'm not supporting the KSU shootings. They were completely wrong, wrong both tactically and stragically, wrong because "command and control" broke down, just flat out wrong. And they're another place where the guilty got off.

But the so-called "Revolution" died there. No, not its ideals, but the actions. And the most grievous thing was that everyone still grieves about KSU and forgets about Jackson State....

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry's War Medal Controversy
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:54 AM

ROTFLMAO - Aha ha ha ha ha - You're killling me here!! Now I've got to clean the coffee off my screen brucie -

I finally figured out who the GUEST is - Har har har -