BS: Another reincarnation story.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:44 PM

ah, yes...I have no doubt that several of you who have had these 'experiences' DO wish me well and consider me sane, honest and a generally good guy, as I do you.. *smile*
-----

   Of course I wish you well, and consider you sane.

   I used to be exactly like you. It took an OBE to show me there is more to life than we have been lead to believe.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 04 - 06:54 PM

Yes, and there's more to push-up bras than we've been led to believe too! (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:40 PM

Reading this thread, most support for reincarnation comes from subjective experiences, with no shred of independent empirical evidence offered. Because this is true, we skeptics are placed in the very awkward position of having to doubt either people's word or the validity of their experiences to maintain our position. A kind of unspoken emotional blackmail is going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb INDEPENDENT empirical evidence is vital, and reincarnationists are offering none. Books about incarnation are written by beleivers for beleivers and are not trustworthy.
   You will find that most skeptics would not venture to contibute to a thread like this exactly because it involves the potential insulting of people they otherwise like. Personal anecdotes about reicarnation (and that is all there is) are therefore met by silence from skeptics and eager, uncritical agreement from the faithful.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:49 PM

going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb
----

   That may be true for SOME people; but I do not care if people believe me or not.

   It is egotistical for me to assume people had the same or similar experiences.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:50 PM

Seeing as how this thread is a conversation between people who are sharing what they consider to be personal experiences and/or things they believe in, why would people who don't believe this stuff feel a need to come in and comment anyway? Just so you can rain on our parade? What's the point of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:02 PM

You raise a hard problem, there, oohah -- namely, the desire for independent and empirical evidence for a phenomenon that seems to be the essence of subjectivity itself -- the spatial definition of Being. Additionally, it is possible that you are asking to put material processes to work on immaterial phenomena, which is doubly difficult.

But ya know, Bill D has a perfectly workable "friendly skeptic" approach. He speaks for himself and doesn't say anything ad hominem against others, and is respected by all, since he is perfectly friendly. There is no need for skepticism to be upsetting to others, unless you wish to enforce it as the only reasonable path..

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:45 PM

I have no personal experience with previous lives, I have arrived at my current beliefs (or I should say strong suspicions) through research and common sense.
That we live through several successive life-experiences learning and growing as we go is the most rational explanation for it all that I have come accross.

Having said that, both my children were born with a wisdom in their eyes so deep it was intimidating.
I don't believe it was a trick of the light, I believe it was true wisdom, which has since been at least partially smothered by education.

BigPinkLad,
I suspect your name may result from your having lived or perhaps been born in the house in the Overlook Mountains, NY, where The Band developed and recording much of the material for their 1967 album "Music From Big Pink"
What say you to that, my man?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:47 PM

It sure works for me, JohnO! It may not be empirical, but it tellingly real and indelibly human. (I mean the first part, not your guess about BPL, about which I have no opinion...)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:18 PM

I believe it was true wisdom, which has since been at least partially smothered by education

I love that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:39 PM

I think every parent mourns that same suffering and loss that a child goes through to engage with Terran life. It costs so much in pure personal power. But it would be hard to risk not doing it, either.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:08 PM

Exactly, Amos. I'm all for skepticism ... in my experience it's the safest, healthiest approach to matters metaphyical anyway. Especially for the novice!

Regarding "empirical evidence" - as I mentioned above, a few weeks ago a talented psychic healer and friend of mine (ok ok it was Two Bears, and he is just AWESOME at what he does thank you so much my friend!) gave me some details about about my own previous incarnations. I know I am very fortunate that historical records have been kept for centures about the family I belonged to last time around.

The way my skeptical Western mind works, even though I've come to trust my friend's remarkable abilities (I've seen him be right so many times I have no choice anymore!) I simply could not have accepted any of his story as truth unless I could somehow physically prove or disprove at least some of it for myself. So, much to his surprise I started working on doing just that, and came up with ....

Fact: Online research proved without a doubt that the person I allegedly "was" did indeed exist historically (even though her "branch" of that family has been extinct for a couple hundred years now);

Fact: she lived and died exactly when and where and in the manner he'd "seen";

Fact: any information/records specifically about her are not only very difficult to find but written in C17 German. This proves to me that even if my friend was lying or trying to deceive me (which I very much doubt) he could not possibly have known anything about her anyway. I doubt anyone else on the planet has ever heard of her, except for the present-day family members who own those geneology sites.

Fact: I have a list of personal anecdotes as long as my arm which support the theory. I even gave one of my sons her name 22 years ago! (male version of course) As a child I remember wishing I could have named myself, just so I could have called myself that name! I was sure I'd been "named wrong" somehow ...

My other son's name reflects her Scandinavian roots.   I always loved those names, was never sure why until now. The names threw my family for a bit of a loop. They are not "family names", and there is absolutely no Scandinavian DNA on any side of the (current) family tree.

Anyway, these facts are among many more, plenty "empirical" enough to satisfy this particular mortal mind, this time around anyway. If they don't satisfy Bill's or Wolfgang's or the Big Pink Lad's or anyone else's, that's only to be expected.   And even if someone reads this and does "believe", is there any real benefit in that "belief" until it's backed up by personal experience???

In other words, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just enjoying the practice of honestly sharing my experiences and theories in public. IT's therapy, in a way. So thanks to Mudcat for the venue to do just that, and thank you all so much for the excellent dialogue!


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:11 PM

If you had asked me 20 or so years ago,I would have told you that reincarnation was a crock. My beliefs have evolved considerably since then, not in the least because of my last child who, when being teased at age 2 by her 9&10 year old siblings about being the youngest,responded that they both knew very well that she was older but,as they all sat in what she termed "the baby bin", waiting to (her words) "come back down here",they both had agreed to return first so she could continue "gettting ready".When I asked why she needed more time she said because "it was so difficult when I was here the last time".At the time I thought the oddest thing about this was that a two yr. old would use the word "difficult".Sometimes I still wonder if she isn't older than I am as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:14 PM

Daylia:

I hope you will take the time to write up exactly what you went through to discover the verifications you did, in as much detail as possible, and get it distributed so it doesn't get lost. For one thing it sounds persuasive and beyond the range of "coincidence". For another, I think Two Bears should have a copy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Kim C
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:07 PM

This has been a remarkably civil discussion, and I am glad to see it.

Ooh-Aah, not everything has empirical evidence attached to it. It just doesn't. That's just the way it is. Get used to it.

Before Mister's grandmother died a couple of years ago, she began talking about people who'd been dead a long time - her sister, her husband - as if she'd just talked to them yesterday. I am given to understand this isn't a rare occurrence among the dying. One could ascribe it to dementia, the side effects of medications, etc. - but how do we know she didn't really see and talk to these people? Perhaps they were trying to ease her into her own passage. She was a stubborn old bat and probably needed a little coaxing.

Mister also told me that years ago, after his grandfather died, he saw him standing at the foot of his bed, just for a moment. Didn't say anything to him, just looked, as if he was getting one last glimpse of his grandson.

I have heard other similar stories from people who have lost a loved one. My friend Joe told me that he AND his now-ex-wife BOTH saw their friend Steve after he had died from a terminal illness.

My father was ready to go, and we had no unfinished business between us, so I am not surprised that I haven't seen him. I did dream about him once, though. I dreamed he came to visit me, and he told me that I had to be responsible for my decisions. There have also been a couple of incidents where I was sure he was looking out for me.

My friend Sheila died from pancreatic cancer at the age of 43. The week after her funeral, I was getting ready to leave the office at the end of the day, and suddenly I smelled roses. The scent was only in my cubicle, and nowhere else. I looked around to see if someone had gotten a flower delivery or something - not a flower to be found in the whole office. This hasn't happened before, or since.

Sheila was very fond of roses.

LH, let me know if you ever get down to Tennessee, so I can buy you a beer or other beverage of your choice. I like your philosophies.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:49 PM

Amos, your affirming comments and (rather timely) practical suggestions are much appreciated. You're right - I do need to organize this ever-growing "empirical" mess of hand-scribbled notes, correspondences, bookmarked webpages, personal documents etc I've created / accumulated doing this research over the last few weeks.   

*sigh* Practicalities? Organizing? Oh woe is me ....*heavier sigh*      

I'd much rather be orga ... oh stop it ...


Hey!! Has my Higher Power been telling you my secrets or something????



:-) daylia


PS   Kim I enjoyed your stories! And thanks for the reminder to get right out there and smell them roses ... then I'll get all organized I promise oh yes I will oh yes indeed ....

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:05 PM

Hey, Kim, thanks! Will do. I might get down to Tennessee one of these days to visit Two Bears. He lives near Nashville. I'm not into alcoholic beverages in any big way, but I guess I could think of something. I had great spareribs in Atlanta one time with Two Bears and some of his friends. They were astoundingly good ribs as a matter of fact.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:37 AM

Nice thread with some good points. But what do I know...;-)

Consider this. Nothing in the world, or even universe, is ever created or destroyed. All matter is simply changed from one form to another. I believe there is some scientific evidence for this viewpoint. So, if this is the case, surely all matter is simply recycled isn't it? It is simply a matter of course that the matter that was once part of a person becomes the matter that is part of another.

Does this not give at least some scientific basis for reincarnation? What part of that matter brings any memories with it, and how, is another argument altogether.

As to matters of faith. Well, I have faith in my own judgement. Does that mean that my judgement is suspect in some way as faith cannot be subject to scientific proof?

So. I believe in reincarnation. I have faith. Does this make me religious in any way? Answers on a postcard please...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Kim C
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:26 AM

Well then, LH, I'll fix you some tea. :-)

Two Bears, where do you live?

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:54 PM

Before Mister's grandmother died a couple of years ago, she began talking about people who'd been dead a long time - her sister, her
-----

   Aloha nui loa

   Not unusual at all.

   In Hawai'ian vernacular; there are 10 components of a human being.

   Three selves (three levels of consciousness) Uhane, Unihipili, and Aumakua.

   Three voltages of mana (life force)

   four bodies (three aka bodies for the three selves, and the kino kanaka (physical body) Only the kino kanaka dies. the others continue.

-----
Mister also told me that years ago, after his grandfather died, he saw him standing at the foot of his bed, just for a moment. Didn't say anything to him, just looked, as if he was getting one last glimpse of his grandson.
-----

   There have been many similar incidents.

-----
us, so I am not surprised that I haven't seen him. I did dream about him once, though. I dreamed he came to visit me, and he told me that
-----

   If you dreamed of him; he has crossed over to the realm od spirit.

----
week after her funeral, I was getting ready to leave the office at the end of the day, and suddenly I smelled roses. The scent was only in my cubicle, and nowhere else. I looked around to see if someone
-----
   You had a visitation from beyond.

-----
LH, let me know if you ever get down to Tennessee, so I can buy you a beer or other beverage of your choice. I like your philosophies.
-----

   LH lives in Canada; but I live in tenessee (about 25 miles East of Nashville.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:00 PM

Hey, Kim, thanks! Will do. I might get down to Tennessee one of these days to visit Two Bears. He lives near Nashville. I'm not into alcoholic beverages in any big way, but I guess I could think of something. I had great spareribs in Atlanta one time with Two Bears and some of his friends. They were astoundingly good ribs as a matter of fact.
-----

LH: Well if you aren't into alcoholic beveragesl then Kin could take me out for a strawberry daquri. ;-)

I'm very glad you enjoyed the ribs. I very much enjoyed my barbeque at The Rib Ranch.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Kim:

I live in a little town called Mount Juliet.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:06 PM

I'd go for a strawberry dacquiri too. I like sweet drinks, and that sounds really good. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:05 PM

I'd go for a strawberry dacquiri too. I like sweet drinks, and that sounds really good. :-)
-----

I think they are the best drink around.

My next favorite is a screwdriver (vodka and orange juice), and my next favorite is rum and coca cola.

Margaritas and bloody mary's did nothing for me.

Two Beara

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:51 AM

Most people are close-minded about some things...usually because they don't know enough yet about those things (Little Hawk)

I agree here wholeheartedly.

There is another way to so stimulate a brain that is not artificial (Little Hawk)

Sure, several, if one knows about that field and is not close-minded before having studied the possibilities:
hypnopompic dreams, sleep deprivation, drug effects, brain tumor, meditation, hyperventilation, etc (among etc. I also count actual astral travel)

What a dull life it
would be if I thought any model was comlete and unchangeable. (Amos)

I agree wholeheartedly. That's the fascination of my job: Never be contented with the present thinking. Wanting to know more. Looking behind the surface. I'm not so easily pleased with my perceptions.

Seeing as how this thread is a conversation between people who are sharing what they consider to be personal experiences and/or things they believe in, why would people who don't believe this stuff feel a need to come in and comment anyway? Just so you can rain on our parade? (Carol)

Carol, don't play silly. When has ever in Mudcat any thread been left alone to one point of view (please let this thread be only for those wanting to share stories how awful Arabs/.../.../.../... are)? And then, go up and read the first post again. Little Hawk has posted a link and said: Check it out, and not 'please post only confirming experiences'. Checking it out, that's exactly what I do.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:33 PM

Fair enough, Wolfgang. This thread has certainly attracted a lot of response.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Kim C
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:47 PM

Two Bears, I am in Antioch ---- Mt. Juliet is about 3 exits east of me off 40. How about that!!!!!

I had no doubts that my father had crossed over. He was ready to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:51 PM

I wasn't talking to you, Wolfgang, although I guess I didn't do a very good job of making that clear. I was responding to this post from GUEST,Ooh-Aah. If s/he feels like s/he's being victimized because s/he can't control the way the conversation is being conducted, maybe s/he would be happier not participating in the discussion:

Reading this thread, most support for reincarnation comes from subjective experiences, with no shred of independent empirical evidence offered. Because this is true, we skeptics are placed in the very awkward position of having to doubt either people's word or the validity of their experiences to maintain our position. A kind of unspoken emotional blackmail is going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb INDEPENDENT empirical evidence is vital, and reincarnationists are offering none. Books about incarnation are written by beleivers for beleivers and are not trustworthy.
   
You will find that most skeptics would not venture to contibute to a thread like this exactly because it involves the potential insulting of people they otherwise like. Personal anecdotes about reicarnation (and that is all there is) are therefore met by silence from skeptics and eager, uncritical agreement from the faithful.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:10 PM

Aloha nui loa Carol; my sister.

Some may become cricical because of skeptics questioning their first hand experiences.

I do not care if someone calls me a liar or doubts by veracity; because 30 years ago I would have had a difficult time accepting reincarnation as fact.

When you experience things first-hand; it changes you.

When Daylia asked me to tell her something about her previous incarnation; I scanned her to get her energy signature, then I scanned back in time to find the same energy signature. After I found the energy signature; I tuned into that signature, and viewed that life clairvoyantly, and then told Daylia what I saw with zero information in advance. I told her which century the previous life was in, her age when she died. that she was close to the royalty of Norway, the color of her mothers (in that lifetime) hair, and what I told her was more than 90% dead on target and much more data.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:20 PM

Uh Two Bears grrrr GRRRRR

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:21 PM

Yeah, nothing convinces like direct experience, but that doesn't mean it can (or should) convince anyone else...unless they know you very well and have a great deal of confidence in your judgement.

It's like some born-again Christian telling me about how he was "saved" and urging me to join his church and get saved too. Well, obviously he had what for him was a meaningful experience, but to me it's just a story from someone who could be partly right, partly wrong, or entirely wrong. In such cases, I look to my own gut feeling as the only indicator I can really go on...since there is no viable means of seeking what is termed "empirical evidence" about it. One other thing, though...I would observe that person over a peroid of time and see what his general conduct indicated too...as that is a sort of evidence worth considering.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:26 PM

Hi Two Bears. I'm having difficulty determining whether you are under the impression that I am criticizing people who believe in reincarnation, or if you are just saying that you are aware that some people criticize people who believe in it.

In case you got the impression that I am one of the people who are criticizing people who believe in it, I am not. What you may be seeing that could have given you that impression is the quote I put in my last post that was from someone else who posted to this thread.

As for my own experience in this regard, I have conscious memories of some of my other lifetimes. I have no reason to doubt these memories. Little Hawk knows a lot about where I'm coming from, spiritually, so you can ask him about it if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:56 AM

Carol, I hope we'll get to meet someday!

This little poem is by Rumi (classic Sufi poet and mystic). I found it in a book by Hazrat Inayat Khan called The Music of Life. It seems to fit in here quite well ...

I died as a mineral, and rose a plant,
I died as a plant, and rose again an animal,
I died as an animal, and rose a man.
Why then should I fear to become less by dying?

I shall die once again as a man,
To rise an angel, perfect from head to foot.
Again, when I suffer dissolution as an angel,
I shall become what passes the conception of man.


A mineral??? Maybe that's why I can be so rock-headed at times! A plant??? Well I just bet I produced more than a few big beautiful sparkling sticky sensi buds ... then in my next life I probably came back as a deer and ate 'em ....

;-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 May 04 - 10:12 AM

Sorry, Carol, I had no doubts you did mean (at least among others) me. I acknowledge I was wrong.

I did forget another reason that can lead to OBEs: hypoxia

Personal experiences are truly very convincing (for me, for instance, to see a good conjurer close up doing things I considered impossible) and they are real in one sense of the word. But all of our perception and experience is also (beside the objective input) an interpretation that is malleable. So I usually (one exception: vivid memories of experiences that never have happened can be induced under certain conditions) do not question the experience as such but the subjective interpretation given to it. There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Thanks, daylia. That would be great. It could happen since JtS has a lot of family in Ontario.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:19 AM

In such cases, I look to my own gut feeling as the only indicator I can really go on... (LH)

"Gut feelings" can be useful personal "indicators". That depends on the person's ability to accurately (and honestly) interpret exactly what it is their "gut" is "indicating".      

... since there is no viable means of seeking what is termed "empirical evidence" about it.

My own recent experiences suggest that while these "viable means" of seeking evidence are very uncommon, they do occasionally present themselves.

I did forget another reason that can lead to OBEs: hypoxia (Wolfgang)

Yes. That's why there's so many reports of "near-death experiences". As physical energy and awareness decrease due to the lack of oxygen, non-physical (by that I mean emotional, mental, intuitive and spiritual) energy and consciousness (awareness) increases.

There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.)

Hypoxia is certainly the "trigger" a lot of people report, that most - but certainly not all - people even seem to require to have an OBE.

"Triggers" and "interpretations" are quite different things, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:54 AM

There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.)

I guess everyone picks and chooses what they're willing to be open-minded about. It also requires a bit of open-mindedness to consider the possibility that OBE are exactly that... experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body.

I know that I certainly am not open-minded to every possibility (at least not at this time in my journey through life). For instance, I know that I am not open-minded about the idea of engaging in sex with other women. It's ok for anyone else who wants that experience, but it's not for me.

But I am very open-minded about having the experience of accepting (without empirical evidence other than that of my own perceptions) the possibility that consciousness is not dependent upon having a physical body in which to reside.

But as I said before, as far as I'm concerned, all of physical reality is an illusion, including everything that can be "proven" through "empirical evidence" and the "scientific method". It's just that, from my perspective, for reasons of our own, we pick and choose which aspects of the illusion we want to embrace or experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:21 PM

I just thought of a good way to explain how things work inside my own thought processes...

When I was a child, all of the "empirical evidence" at my disposal "proved" the existance of Santa Clause. All of the authority figures in my world insisted that he existed. In fact the entire culture of the society in which I found myself, insisted that he existed. I saw him with my own eyes many times as a child, in department stores, on TV, in books, etc. The experience was repeatable and predictable... evidence of his existance was found under the Christmas tree every year. Without fail. Every year, the cookies and milk that we left out for him on Christmas Eve were gone on Christmas morning. The authority figures in my world insisted that they did not eat the cookies and milk, and that the presents under the tree were from Santa Clause.

But when I was about seven years old, my intuition told me that there was no such thing as Santa Clause. It turns out that my intuition was right. Since that time, my intuition has turned out to be right in quite a few situations in which most, if not all, of the empirical evidence pointed one way, my intuition pointed another. So I have every incentive to trust my intuition about things and to not trust people who tell me I should not trust my intuition, and no incentive to do otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:39 PM

Yep...just like Iraqi WMD's and card-carrying Communists in Congress and the State Department (as Joe McCarthy asserted)...Santa Claus did not exist! Always trust your own instincts on this kind of stuff and to hell with the "authorities".

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:47 PM

Carol,

That's a charming version of a heroic transition! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:11 PM

I died as a mineral, and rose a plant,
I died as a plant, and rose again an animal,
I died as an animal, and rose a man.
Why then should I fear to become less by dying?

I shall die once again as a man,
To rise an angel, perfect from head to foot.
Again, when I suffer dissolution as an angel,
I shall become what passes the conception of man.

-----

Aloha nui loa Daylia; my sister.

Very wise words there. Thank you so much for posting the poem.

Mystics like Rumi are not the only ones that believed in the transmigration of spirit in attempt to atain perfection, and return to the source.

The Hawaiian's also believed in the transmigration of spirit.

If anyone is interested in reading my take on Hawaiian mysticism; fo to the following URL HUNA 101

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:39 PM

And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:35 PM

And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me!
------

You're more than welcome to the books. I am very glad you seem to be enjoying some of them.

Did you get the little book back yet?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:05 AM

Yes I did - and thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: 42
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:25 AM

do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning.



j

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 09:28 AM

It's not that, it's the potential we have for getting closer to angels, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:17 AM

First, I doubt we all believe any one thing in comon. But as to your question...

TREE frogs?

TREE FROGS???

Sorry, pal. A tree frog won't cut it. They have no art in them. They have no pyramids, no hanging gardens, no stabiles and mobiles; they will not heal the sick with their conscious inventions nor cause the stars to shudder with their symphonic inspirations. They have no beautiful Mondrian canvases nor beautiful V-8 engines nor beautiful motorcycles, nor schooners' sails nor space shuttles in them, all kinds of beauty beyond their little domain. Wall hangings, clean sheets, well-turned fountain pens, the tilling of acres in harmonious rows, orchards, farms -- all these are beyond them.   And they will never invent angels to aspire to. Whereas you and we are capable of all this and more. Including the invention of angels.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 01:43 PM

do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning.
-----

42; You missed the point of the Rumi poem.

We are spirits that are learning and growing through multiple forms. I know for a fact that I was a lizard, a Bear, and several other animals, and several lifetimes as a human being over the last 800 years or so.

In my previous life; I died as a U.S. soldier in WWI fighting the enemy in France.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 04 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, I seem to relate well to lizards, hawks, and wolves. I think we all have soul connections to certain animal species. If you look at the development of a human foetus it seems to pass through all the evolutionary stages from single-celled creature to sea creature to amphibian to reptile to mammalian to human. We carry in our genes the whole story of life on this planet.

There's more than one way to look at reincarnation. You can look at it from the cellular level, the genetic level, the mental level, or the spiritual level, and they are probably all valid in their own way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:42 PM

When the young man I mentioned above, died, there were a number of oddities involving ravens the first few days and weeks.

* The first one was when the body was found- he'd been missing on the mountain for four days- quiet, watching ravens were sitting all around in the trees surrounding where the body lay. There had been NO assault on the body, although that is standard. (Keep in mind that this is Alaska and here Mother Nature claims many for her own.)

* When the party notified the other groups by radio that he had been found they all turned back to base. A raven came from somewhere behind and circled one group that had been especially close to the young man in life then turned and flew back calling melodiously. One of the group said, There goes ___________.

* One person who had been especially close to him was walking on a hard pan road close to town when a raven landed on the roadway ahead of her. He looked at her then strutted back and forth. She spoke to him and he cocked his head and warbled then lifted off and flew away.

* One person drove into a grocery parking lot and before she even stopped the car a raven landed on the hood (bonnet) and walked to the windshield and stared intently on a packet of french fries she had on the dash board. She rolled down the window and laid a fry onto the hood. He backed off until it was laid down then came forward and picked it up and flew away.

* A raven walked through an open door into a small liqor store/newspaper outlet and they had to shoo him out.

* One friend wrote a song about him in which she called him an eagle. Then she had a dream in which he told her, "I'm no eagle! You know I'm a raven." She changed the lyrics immediately.

To this day when a raven speaks to me, I greet him as Brother.

(I would love to think that we have that option. I want to experience the world from above. I just wish we had a clearer view ahead)

Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 08:58 PM

I have had special memories and visions related to hawk-nature. If I needed a particular icon to explain myself, I'd use a hawk as soon as any.

A