BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse

Subject: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 04 - 10:36 PM

I finally found a website that has all the photographs shown on 60 Minutes II last week. They can be viewed here, though they take some to load (though not as long for me as the other thread on the subject here):

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 May 04 - 11:33 PM

Think maybe nobody cares for manipulative crap?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:20 AM

Take a hint, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:56 AM

There is nothing manipulative about keeping the thread going as long as the other thread is going. I do think the link should be put in at the top of the other thread for posterity sake, so that if someone opened that thread down the line, they could find a link to a website that published all the photos.

These photos haven't been that easy to find online in one place. I posted the link as a public service.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:49 AM

I am not a Guest and I finD these photos disgusting, are these photos all fakes?, if not the world should see them.
I keep pointing out ALL ARMIES OF OCCUPATION ARE NO DIFFERENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:15 AM

These are the photos shown on the US program 60 Minutes, ard mhaca. The photos that ARE being shown around the world, and that have triggered investigations now by th US Congress.

To suggest that anyone who cares about this issue is just engaging in "manipulative crap" is way beyond the pale of reasonableness. This is a widening scandal here in the US, the Bush administration is being challenged for covering it up...and as Ted Kennedy said as he walked out of the closed door briefing of the Senate Armed Services Committee, we have only seen the tip of the iceberg on this.

But as you point out, some will always attack the messenger, as a way to try and discredit/deflect/deny the message.

You are also absolutely correct to say all armies of occupation engage in these practices, and the US military is no different, despite what the former US military Mudcat members say. Of course Vietnam vets here want to deny that there is an in-built component of evil in the culture of military. Because if they don't deny it, they would have to admit to themselves and those whose respect they want to keep, that it is the ability to dance with evil that attracted them to the military to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Amos
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:45 AM

The saddest thing about them is the smiles.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:23 AM

Today the US commander of Iraq`s prison system apologised for the abuse of detainees by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison.
If he and his fellow officers had been more alert and doing their duty this wouldn`t have happened, then again they may have been very alert and turned a blind eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:17 AM

Fuck off, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:21 AM

I think another problem is ready to surface about this too ard mhaca, which is the fact that "independent contractors" along with CIA and military intelligence personnel have also been fingered in the now 6 (according to Secretary Rumsfeld) investigations the Dept of Defense has underway into the allegations.

So it appears this wasn't isolated, or being done without the knowledge of superiors. The brigadier general who had the command for all the prisons in Iraq at the time the alleged torture took place (she is now stationed stateside), has said that Army military intelligence, CIA, and the independent contractors were the personnel running the show there, and NOT the military police under her command. Her story is that the MPs under her command that were in the unit, some of whom have now been reprimanded, others charged, were following orders from CIA, Army military intelligence officers, and the independent contractors.

She (the general) also said the CIA/military intelligence people did their best to prevent the Red Cross from entering their cell block and interviewing the prisoners, which is also a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

The Defense Dept, the White House, etc are only using the word "abuse" and will not use the word "torture" for the obvious reasons. They are also claiming this is a few bad apples who are now being dealt with, the system works, everything is JUST FINE, thank you very much.

But that isn't what many members of Congress are saying. What they are saying is, we will convene our investigations. This will be playing itself out for quite awhile, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Fair enough, GUEST. This is fair stuff and topical. I guess I was responding to the fact that you started the thread and then only you kept bringing it up. Seems to indicate a need for something, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:59 AM

"following orders"...now where have we heard that before?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:05 AM

The news outlets are now reporting that the Shrub will address the issue with two Arab networks. From the headline article in the NY Times:

Bush to Address Prison Abuse in Interviews With 2 Arab Networks
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: May 5, 2004

WASHINGTON -- As President Bush planned interviews with Arab television to underscore his revulsion at photographs of U.S. soldiers gloating over naked Iraqi prisoners, a top Pentagon official said Wednesday he expected investigations of abuse to widen.

Bush's appearance on Arab television was set for the day after the Army disclosed that it is conducting criminal investigations of 10 prisoner deaths in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus another 10 abuse cases.

In addition, the deaths of two Iraqi prisoners already have been ruled homicides. In one case, a soldier was court-martialed, reduced in rank and discharged from the Army. In the other homicide, a CIA contract interrogator's conduct has been referred to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution.

McClellan said two 10-minute interviews with Bush were scheduled for Wednesday.

In an interview with Ohio reporters during a campaign swing through the state Tuesday, Bush sidestepped an opportunity to apologize for the abuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:07 AM

And of course, when prisoners are murdered by interrogators, that isn't torture. It is just "abuse".

Apparently, the US media is now going along with the conspiracy to avoid the 'T' word.

Yes, this is EXACTLY why the US refuses to be held accountable to the World Court. I hope a movement starts to hold war crimes tribunals, and that our military and government is convicted in abstentia.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:21 AM

I find it amazing that the photos should stir up such hatred against the person who is exposing this scandal.
Do you wish that this should be hidden and buried away with all of other atrocities commited by uniformed thugs?.
Well done guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:40 AM

Soldiers on all sides of conflict have engaged in criminal behaviour. That doesn't excuse the behaviour. However, one cannot posit from that that ALL soldiers everywhere engage in criminal/sadistic behaviour. That has been the unwritten postulate of this GUEST.

The people who are engaging in torture deserve a court martial. I expect they will be. I hope they are. And they will deserve it. I hope too that the person(s) who issued the OK to do that shit face the same charges.

It's too bad that it takes twenty-seven trolling posts from this GUEST to ruin the reputation of his one good one.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:53 AM

All soldiers everywhere are engaged in criminal behavior because of their profession. The veterans of vietnam military on Mudcat have been tarred with the brush of evil and cannot erase it. I want everyone to know how their so called heroes really are.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:04 PM

GUEST, you're really going too far, even for an Ashcroftian.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Guest 11:53 AM, for pointing out that the problem ISN'T a few bad apples. The problem is the culture of violence and militarism, which only is ever able to hold criminality and sadism in check. If the world has learned nothing else from Rwanda, the Nazis, Bosnia, and all the other genocides and wars against civilians in the last century, it should certainly be that.

The pro-militarism Vietnam vets don't want to talk about who the true victims of war are, and whom, if they actually saw combat, they themselves killed in Vietnam. Civilians. Innocent civilians. Not because they were any more or less evil than the soldiers killing civilians in Iraq today. That is simply the nature of war nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:41 PM

It was not the actual violence that offended me. It was pictures of those nude people. That should not be allowed on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:10 PM

Well that's fine then, Guest 1:41 PM.

The nudity also offends the international community, and is designated as torture in the Geneva Convention for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,NOT GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:22 PM

I agree that the treatment of the prisoners was wrong and those that are responsible need to be punished. I disagree with the partisan tone that GUEST takes. And by the way, that is not the nature of war now- it has always been the nature of war. Are you so naive that you are surprised that people who fight wars become immune to what seems to them as inconsequential? Are you so stupid as not to recognize that Congress will divide not on lines of morality but party? It does not matter which party is in power, the Outs will fight the Ins, regardless of the issue.

I'm not sure what lessons GUEST believes we learned from "...Rwanda, the Nazis, Bosnia, and all the other genocides..."- care to explain that one? I'ma little puzzled as to what point you are making.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:54 PM

GUEST: Is nudity the only thing that bothers you? For God's sake.

However, it is historically clear that brutality is something that happens in war. It has ever been thus. Brutality is not the fault of just invading armies or soldiers. Even armies that have lost resort to it. The soldiers responsible will be called to account. As soon as possible would be good.

You seem to think Americans have sole ownership of brutality and inhumanity in war. Not true. But you don't seem to have much commerce with anything beyond your very narrow view. Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:01 PM

It's like a guest echo chamber in here.

These photos are disturbing. Not all of them have been on the networks I watch, but unfortunately, when the network news folks interview members of the military or administration they can't resist repeating the slide-show of a select few of these over the conversation. They need to be available, I just wish the News/Entertainment departments had some sense of proportion.

I dread the effect on the rest of the world that Bush's two ten-minute interviews will cause. The pud can't speak several sentences in a row without stammering, and can't keep a reasonable facial expression when speaking to American audiences, so think of the confusion and obfuscation that Arab-language audiences are going to see. He should let someone else do the talking--no one is going to believe a word he says, especially with his dim delivery.

Guest, this stuff does need to be available, but you're going way over the top with the accusation that all military are criminals. Is this our old friend/foe Dreaded Guest from down near Austin somewhere? Have you resurfaced for this occasion?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:46 AM

Guest - a few things bother me about this thread

1. The photos are disgusting but I thought everyone had already seen them and thought enough is enough!

2. Photos are not evidence - especially in our digital world.

3. I believe that this actually happened but then again, it could all be propaganda.

4. I have already heard your rant about the evil military. Although I agree with some of it, I do not believe that the individuals who serve are all evil.

5. Anyone who has to keep their own thread alive should consider that maybe nobody is interested. Its sort of like talking to yourself.

What is your point anyway? Go find Sharangi-la. Wait a minute. Isn't that somewhere in Kashmir? There are other kinds of evil there.

What I'm trying to say is this - On earth there is no heaven but what you might be able to find in your own precious life. I doubt if I will see world peace in my lifetime but it is a very noble ideal. Keep dreaming but do not continue to rant against those that are serving in the military. We've already heard it. I think they should all desert or mutiny or something. Whoever heard of taking orders from a privately contracted interrogator? Sounds like the chain of command is pretty vague, at best. Unless, of course, you want to hold the Commander in Chief responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Samoth
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:29 AM

--It's a shame that our soldiers would engage in such acts. All those responsible should be punished. It does not however negate the justness of this war. Whatever has happend, it pales in comparrison to what was happening in Iraq just days and weeks before we arrived. Human shreaders have been found for god's sake. Where are the pictures of the mass graves. the pictures of the hundreds of thousands of innocents that he murdered, raped, and "abused".
--Yes our soldiers should be punished. No it doesn't mean the Americans are evil. It doesn't mean the war is wrong. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that we shoud turn our backs on our fighting men and women over seas.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:59 AM

The war is wrong. Men and women who commit such acts are evil. To say those things doesn't come remotely close to saying "all military people are evil" or "Americans are evil" but that doesn't matter, because people read things the way they want to read them.

One way that people distort another person's words to make them fit their worldview, is by adding words like "all" or "none" to twist the meanings, and make things they find ambiguous and unsettling, appear black and white. These things just aren't that simple. Generalizations are sometimes useful, sometimes ridiculous.

Most people want the world to appear in black and white, which is why when people see photographic evidence of something like the Rodney King beating by police, or Iraqi prisoners being tortured by our "heroic" American troops in the same prison where Saddam Hussein's hatchetmen committed horrendous atrocities--that shakes up people's preconceived notions of the most powerful authority figures in our society whom we wish to believe are benevolent, ethical, responsible people.

When we see that the hero myth is so ambiguous, we get upset. We have difficulty accepting the information to be true, even when we are presented with it again and again.

Many photographs do lie, or have been manipulated for effect. Military propaganda in recent years has been relenting in their attempts to heroicize what the troops are doing in our illegal wars in our name.   So when the heroic warrior myth disintegrates before our eyes and turns into a despicable, evil monster, people will deny this really happened, they will try and make it go away with dismissive remarks like "it isn't so bad" or "it isn't as bad as what Saddam Hussein did". And because our guys got caught, these problems will exacerbate anti-Arab prejudices as well, because some will blame the victims.

Does a man who throws a rock deserve to shot and killed? Apparently, there are a few people here who think the answer to that question is yes. But it does beg the question: so why is that prisoner's death been ruled a homicide?

All I can say is, I'm glad we don't have to rely on the ethics of the people in this thread to decide serious issues like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:30 AM

GUEST: You have no idea about ethics. This shit is a game to you. You don't even have the ethical responsibility to sign your name. I told you to fuck off. Excuse me, such was not my place to give you an order. So allow me to ask instead: Would you please fuck off? Thank you, so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:50 PM

GUEST thanks for posting the photos. I had not seen them all. I am as disgusted by them as any feeling human being should be. I did not read anywhere in any of your threads that you think all Americans are evil OR that all military are evil.

I think the remarks made to you are unfounded and uncalled for. You are presenting your point of view without venom, but it is being met with venom. People have selective eyesight at times.

Don't give up though. Some of us find your remarks very interesting, and echo your sentiments. We should support your points of view maybe, but I for one can't be bothered doing battle with the war horses on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:40 PM

"Soldiers on all sides of conflict have engaged in criminal behaviour"
Indeed you are right, brucie. But this war was instigated on illegalities, or have you forgotten this?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Samoth
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:41 PM

I am disgusted by the pictures of Western soliders and Contractors being mutilated and murdered in the streets. Where is your outrage over that, or is it only Americans who you think are evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:44 PM

I am disgusted by pictures of Western soldiers and Contractors being there in the first place, Samoth.

Where is your outrage over that, or is it only the Iraqis who you think are evil

Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:51 PM

This war is not of our choosing but theirs! Never ever ever forget that no matter who does what to who. BTW this so-called humiliation of a few detainess - if it was really that - is nothing compared to the brutal calculated and unfeeling slaughter of thousands of Americans on 9-11!

We need to focus on the fact that Al Qaida is still out there planning and ready for yet more evil and they have no qualms at all about doing their thing.

Be vigilant!

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:00 PM

I think Guest is correct to make us think about this matter,regardless of the hurt feelings.
All inhabitants of this earth should look on one another as brothers.
Enemies are in the main, invented by politicians and religious lunatics.
The politician will exhort the soldier to kill "enemies of the State " on one day, and the next will be inviting the same "enemy" to shake hands with the Queen, or join in "democratic government"
Its no wonder the military man,who is usually "intellectually challenged" anyway,doesnt know if his arseholes' punched or bored.
Getting back to the subject ,I just missed "National Service " in the UK,but I remember ,most of my friends who did serve their two years in the forces returned brutalised,and hardly recognisable in personality.
The photographs are sure to reinforce the belief held by Moslems,that
Western culture is corrupt and disgusting.
A belief that I have shared for a number of years....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:07 PM

This war is not of our choosing but theirs! Never ever ever forget that no matter who does what to who.

With all due respect, sorefingers, I think if you review the history of the affair you will find that those responsible for choosing to attack "us" (meaning the US) were not Iraqis. (Actually they wer emostly Saudis, as far as we know).   So how do you reckon it was their choice? Or are you of the turn of mind that says all "ragheads" are the same as all other "ragheads"??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:29 PM

The Washington Post today announced it has obtained what may be more photographic evidence of detainees' abuse at the infamous Abu Ghraib prison:

By Christian Davenport
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 6, 2004; Page A01


The collection of photographs begins like a travelogue from Iraq. Here are U.S. soldiers posing in front of a mosque. Here is a soldier riding a camel in the desert. And then: a soldier holding a leash tied around a man's neck in an Iraqi prison. He is naked, grimacing and lying on the floor...

...Mixed in with more than 1,000 digital pictures obtained by the Washington Post are photographs of naked men, apparently prisoners, sprawled on top of one another while soldiers stand around them. The graphic images, passed around among military police who served at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, are a new batch of photographs similar to those broadcast a week ago on CBS's "60 Minutes II" and published by the New Yorker magazine. They appear to provide further visual evidence of the chaos and unprofessionalism at the prison detailed in a report by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba. His report, which relied in part on the photographs, found "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" that were inflicted on detainees.

This group of photographs, taken from the summer of 2003 through the winter, ranges widely, from mundane images of everyday military life to pictures showing crude simulations of sex among soldiers. The new pictures appear to show American soldiers abusing prisoners, many of whom wear ID bands, but The Post could not eliminate the possibility that some of them were staged.

The photographs were taken by several digital cameras and loaded onto compact discs, which circulated among soldiers in the 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit based in Cresaptown, Md. The pictures were among those seized by military investigators probing conditions at the prison, a source close to the unit said."

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:32 PM

Sorry, I meant to provide a link to the new photos in that last post.

There is a slide show of some of the new photographs at the Washington Post website, but registration is required to view it.

Slide show of new photos of prisoner torture at Abu Ghraib 5/6

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From:
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:52 PM

I am a soldier and I am disgusted by these pictures, but to condemn the military over this matter is retarded every soldier I have talked to and known would be or is as sickened as everyone is about this.

I am disgusted by this but in all due respect I am not condoning what they did any form quite the contrary I think it is disgusting but, I have seen far worse done to my brothers and sisters in arms.

This is war shit happens. You think shit hasn't happened to our soldiers in such fashions? If you think that your a idiot. The only difference is the US doesn't parade it around like every other country because we seek to protect the individuals from the humiliation that has occurred during their inprisonment.

Again the soldiers behind the abuse will see justice handed to them and rightfully so it is deserved but to condemn all military action is completely unacceptable and irresponsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: mg
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:22 PM

What bothers me the most is not hearing that immediate action was taken..I have had a hard time following this...my computer is basically down and I can just stay late at work sometimes to read etc...when was the abuse stopped and how long did it take? Were special efforts undertaken to speed up the process so that the remaining prisoners could be released if found not to be a threat? Were immediate orders issued to inspect every prison or facility in the war zone? Not just for abuse but for adequate food, shelter etc.? Are we so low on personnel that we must use what have been described as traffic cops (itself a necessary and demanding speciality but different from prison control) to do one of the most sensitive aspects of the war? Were commanders told to inform their troops of the seriousness of their duties and that no abuses would be tolerated? That this would affect how our POWs would be treated? And would lead to more Americans and coalition troops being captured????? It all boggles my mind. I am not so naive as to believe horrible situations do not occur, and as GUEST says, I am touched by evil, but also by good, and the knowledge that evil is not just going to go away on its own. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:55 PM

It doesn't take much searching to answer one question: who IS that woman smiling so broadly in so many of those abusive photos? Her name is Lynndie England, and here the sweet thing is in a photo with her fiancé. A Google Search on her name comes up with quite a few remarks and photos. Here's a blurb from the Muslim News from the UK:

Another reservist, Lynndie R. England, 21, told her mother in January about potential problems at the Iraq prison.

England grew up in a trailer down a dirt road behind a saloon and a sheep farm in Fort Ashby, W.Va., a one-stoplight town about 13 miles south of Cumberland.

Yesterday afternoon, her mother, Terrie England, pressed her fingers to her lips when a reporter showed her a newspaper photo of her daughter smiling in front of what a caption said were nude Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

"Oh, my God," she said, her body stiffening as she sat on a cooler on the trailer's small stoop.

"I can't get over this," she said, taking a drag on her cigarette.

Lynndie England, a railroad worker's daughter who made honor roll at the high school near here, had enlisted in the 372nd for college money and the chance to widen her small-town horizons. In January, however, she gave her family the first inkling that something had gone woefully wrong.

"I just want you to know that there might be some trouble," she warned her mother in a phone call from Baghdad. "But I don't want you to worry."

Lynndie England said she was under orders to say no more. The military has told the family nothing; all the Englands know is that she has been detained, apparently in connection with the unit's alleged misconduct at the prison.

"Whether she's charged or not, I don't know," Terrie England said.

This was not supposed to be the fate of a girl who grew up hunting turkey or killing time with her sister at the local Dairy Dip, making wisecracks about the cars whizzing past.

"She wanted to see the world and go to college," said Terrie England, whose T-shirt bore a design of heart-shaped American flags. "Now the government turned their back on her, and everything's a big joke."

She held photos of her daughter in khakis, smiling atop a camel in Iraq.

At most, the 372nd's alleged abuses of prisoners were "stupid, kid things - pranks," Terrie England said, her voice growing bitter. "And what the [Iraqis] do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?"

Everyone had been proud of Lynndie England. A Wal-Mart in nearby LaVale displays her photo on its Wall of Honor. The Mineral County courthouse in Keyser, W.Va., posts her photograph and those of other local soldiers under a banner that says: "We're hometown proud."

Lynndie England had found purpose, and love, in the Army. She got engaged last year to a fellow member of the 372nd, Charles Graner, who appears with his arm around her in the newspaper photo.

Now, Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base - her family declined to say where - and is barred from leaving for anything besides her job. She has been demoted from the rank of specialist to private first class. And when she calls home, she says frustratingly little.

Destiny Goin said the Army had trained her sister Lynndie for an administrative job, "a paper pusher." Instead, she wound up helping to guard 900 Iraqi prisoners of war in a sprawling, squalid compound near Baghdad.

"It's just unjust, is what it is," Goin said.

Rest of the article is here. This story just tears at your heart strings, doesn't it? [NOT!]

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 07:32 AM

First, thanks to those here who have commented positively about my keeping the thread going, and raising the difficult issues.

Mary, I'm with you on this for a number of reasons. In another thread, you said you thought as many prisoners as possible should be released as quickly as possible and this horror magnet of a prison be blown sky high. Just imagine the message our troops COULD have sent to Iraqis if, when the area was taken over by us, we had blown up the prison, and never used it.

Second, you mention the timing. I think there is still so much shock and awe surrounding these events right now, that we don't know exactly what happened. But good journalists will eventually trace it all back, and a few of us who will bother to go looking for their stories, will finally know the truth (as far as it will ever be knowable about something horrendous like this).

It seems to me that the reservists who are currently charged, started sending home letters which appeared to be reporting on irregularities at the prison in January. But that also appears to be around the time Rumsfeld was notified of the investigation? Though I'm not sure, because I think I also heard that Rumsfeld had been notified last fall, so don't hold me to that one. But at any rate, I think the reservists were already in hot water at the time they started writing home, and were in damage control mode.

With the new photos that were published yesterday in the Washington Post, this whole thing could widen, because it appears from the Washington Post story, that a CD with these photographs was being widely passed around among troops inside and outside the prison. Which brings up the issue of what is and isn't acceptable in the military culture on the ground in Iraq. That would, of course, involve the higher ups both participating, looking the other way, and condoning and justifying such behavior because it raises troop morale/relieves combat stresss to see the photos in the (to them) funny context of a travelogue, and especially, of the humiliation of Iraqis who our troops obviously view as their enemies, not their allies, in the liberation of Iraq.

So, I think this is all quite complex. Soldiers have a lot of technology on the ground in Iraq that the military simply can't keep control of, as this shows.

Again, I reiterate that for this CD to have been widely circulated among the troops, the military culture on the ground in Iraq, had to be supporting it, just like whole police departments are often corrupt when there is widespred corruption among police. The culture the troops operate in HAS to give tacit support at the least, to what was going on, the same way it was given in the LAPD when the police brutality scandal broke with Rodney King. These circumstances never involve just a few bad apples. These are circumstances where the bad apples have been put in charge, and it is those with a functioning moral compass are intimidated and silenced.

Rumsfeld must go. There is just no way for him to remain at the helm, because his presence would be too damaging for the troops and for the nation. It would also be best for Bush's re-election campaign for him to go today, but this administration has so much wrongdoing going on it, and so much secrecy covering it all up, I think they can't see the forest for the trees on this one.

We'll see what happens with Rumsfeld's testimony. But I just can't imagine a human rights scandal of this magnitude not bringing down some high officials. And it probably shouldn't stop with just Rumsfeld.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Melanie
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:08 PM

We should not condemn the whole military but we need to keep in mind that a lack of respect for the Geneva Convention has been the policy of this administration. It is clear that Lynndie England was not properly trained and it sounds as though many other reservists were not even aware of the rules. It is ridiculous for a war justified on human rights grounds to be waged by soldiers who have not even been familiarized with the primary document regarding rights for soldiers.

It is not enough to discipline young, untrained reservists, whoever trained Ms. England has to go too.

And whether or not Rumsfeld goes, the Geneva Convention must be respected from now on or the U.S. Army will (fairly or unfairly) be known as hypocritical abusers of human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,REALIST WORLD TRAVELLER
Date: 08 May 04 - 07:39 PM

Thank you GUEST, for taking the time and trouble to impartially show some of the photos the world is now discussing and viewing.
I am a Buddhist, but totally disgusted by the photos.
If this is the Christian, caring US Military in action from a country that professes to 'care' so much about Human Rights, then the USA is in a very sorry mess.
One only has to read the threads on this Board from obious Americans and the abuse directed at GUEST, to clearly see that it is a nation of fascist selfish bigots.
The actions of US troop in Iraq make Saddam Hussein seem a much better choice for the Iraqis.
Americans should ask themselves how they would feel if a foreign army took over their country, imprisoned President Bush (now THERE'S a GOOD idea!!) and then sadistically tortured US citizens.
The US should NEVER have invaded Iraq in the first place - America is NOT God. If any Americans have a brain, other than just a belly full of hamburgers and fries, they should get the hell out of Iraq NOW!!
All US personnel involved in this torture and abuse should be tried by Iraqi courts of justice and face the consequences.
George Bush should be there in the cock alongside them.
The crux of the whole problem is that Americans cannot 'see' what the rest of the world thinks of them and why most of the world hates them.
US perople canoot go blindly through life thinking 'We Are The Best', just like Nazi Germany.
The USA is trillions of dollars in debt, ridden with political corruption and led ny a President with the brains of a sheep (apologies to all sheep everywhere).

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,CCIE
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:45 PM

It is unfortunate that this event has shown the true colour of some of the comentators here. Americans are no different than any other nation upon the earth at this stage since the creation. If the people speaking here were really " World Travelers " they would have already realized this.
The problem here is not Americans or America. The problem is most people will obey the orders of a superiors no matter what the command. Peer pressure has alot to do with this, but social and political pressure can cause many people to do many different things.
Sure the US has gotten themselves into a war that is looking more and more everyday like it will not have the outcome that was desired in the first place. Ending the war has pushed them to do anything to acheive that end. I would ask all of you to first think about your own ills and address your issues first instead of screaming America or Isreal, Saudi Arabia, India, China or some obscure crack in the earth.
The fact is that most people of the world are blind followers no matter what they are following. They are us and we are them. BLIND FOLLOWERS will do anything that is asked of them. Americans...they thought that they werent blind followers and now they have found that they are just like everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:53 PM

"The problem is most people will obey the orders of a superiors no matter what the command. Peer pressure has alot to do with this"

Yes, but you can't order someone to hate.
There has to be some room in your theory for personal input and 'creativity'.

Whatever that turns out to be, can be the main problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 May 04 - 12:52 PM

They have accidently released some more shots - see Yahoo - of a woman prisioner on a leash like a dog, naked and kneeling on the floor like a dog.

When the rest of these photos are circulated the entire world will be mad as hell as the USA.

The people who ordered this done to POWs should be tried and then publicly executed by a firing squad. That's what the allies did at the end of WW2 ... oh and they hung a few of them as well... in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:43 PM

The scariest thing about this thread is that there are people who think it's all OK. Odd to have no education and live in a trailor park but have access to the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 09 May 04 - 08:18 PM

Well, to me,..........this is "beyond" shameful for the US in it's standing in the world community. It's repulsive and despicable. How can we as a nation recover from this? It's like a grown-up playing with fire and burning the house down only to be caught by the child. Horrible.

These photos brought instant tears and anger from me. I wondered if my forefathers from Africa AND my native American Indian relatives from years passed were treated this way. I think not. I think it was much worst for them. But who was there to save those abused ones? Wrong is wrong. That's another story.....Some say one way to judge a nation is to see how humanely they treat their prisoners in time of war. I hear this is the tip of the iceburg.

The weakness of some brings shame to all. We, the US, are supposed to be leaders, bringing innovative ideas to an opressed community, not followers that continue the abuse these same people have suffered for so long already in their own with Sadam. Where were the leaders for the military in this whole process? Are they part of this too? There's supposed to be "checks and balances" each step of the way in the distribution of power right?. That's the way our governmemt is set up any way. It's not right and I'm going with a gut feeling that now things will HAVE to change from the very top, in between, and even the bottom.   

To sum it up: I believe that the vast majority of the military enlistants are doing their jobs to the letter and are performing superberbly. I support them. I have yet to believe that this abuse is running rampant in the general population of the military. However, this is a "black eye" for all of us, especially for those that serve and have done so much good. It over shadows the good they have done and will be embebbed in the memories of those that we tried to rescue for a longer time. Ultimatey, it makes the current US administration look worst than before. We already know that Iraq had no direct link to 911, and yet, we the "adult" (in the world community) have gone to war with a "child", little Iraq. I have to admit that even though I have never supported the Bush Administration for a variety of reasons beginning with how they got into office in the first place, the loss of millions of jobs while the rich got richer from insane tax brakes, the extremely large national debt, and the the "cowboyish" image we now have in the way the Iraqi war has been conducted, to name a few,.......this must have caught them off guard. Poor leadership just about sums it up................A change is a commin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:57 AM

http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/IraqPOW/pages/IraqGangRape.htm

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Later note from Mr. Happy in the Help Forum:

Subject: RE: Request for link in thread to be removed
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11-May-04 - 05:37 AM


In retrospect I heartily agree the link be removed, as I've found since I posted it that there's definitely doubts as to the veracity of the image.

Apologies if I offended

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I have been asked to remove this link because the photos shown on the linked page appear to have been altered. I think I'd agree that the photos have indeed been altered, but I'll let people make that assessment themselves. We're adults here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Photos here of Iraqi prisoner abuse
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:47 PM

Considering how widespread the abuse of prisoners was (ie that the CDs were being passed around in Iraq among most of the troops, mercenaries, and CIA/MI people, I'm not convinced that there isn't widespread abuses of Iraqi civilians by our troops too.

I believe the 4 mercenaries/'private contractors' tortured and killed in Faluja may well have been killed because of widespread running amok in our name by 'private contractors' and troops as well. That would make some twisted sense of the savagery of their deaths and the desecration of their bodies, and the fierceness of the siege of Falluja. Remember, we didn't allow the Iraqis to properly bury their dead during the siege. Not much was made of that, or of our siege preventing medical care, food & water, and other necessary supplies reaching the Falluja civilians in the US media, but I'm sure it was a huge deal for them, and that resulted in the fierceness of the resistance to our troops and mercenaries there.

The normal soldier's fears that becomes hatred of one's enemies is a choice, and a common one among soldiers. That hate is still to be heard when you listen to vets speak, half a century later, about their military experiences. I got a blast of it from my ex-Marine brother in law when we were discussing the prisoner abuse scandal this weekend, while we were at a memorial for some deceased family friends. That couple were both WWII vets, him Navy, her Marines. But the contrast between their acceptance and forgiveness of themselves and their "enemies" from WWII, and their conscious decision not to hate the "enemies" of the US wars then and since, became a hallmark of their lives.

OTOH, my brother-in-law, a Korean vet, is bitter and full of hate, racism, and bigotry, and spews the military propaganda lines we see so often here at Mudcat from vets. Yet, when someone challenges him for spouting the crap he was brainwashed with way back when, he does a disconnect, eyes sort of glaze over, he gets confused, mumbles, and changes the subject.

So IMO, we Americans know full well just from experiences we have had with active military people and vets we know (ie family, friends, colleagues) that there are at least two sorts of military/vets in any era, and not just this monolithic "you are with the troops/vets or against us" stereotype that the US military/government/media perpetually promotes.