BS: World peace possible.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 04 - 05:26 PM

The question before the council is: what other activities or pursuits should the Department of Peace be charged with in order to achieve its goals?

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:21 PM

A truth I think we can all agree on is this: We will all die (with the notable exception of William Shatner), and whatever we have accumulated ain't goin' with us. Those who believe an afterlife exists or believe it doesn't--well, the cash ain't goin' along either way. So, having more that you need is greedy. I think it was St Basil who sid that "The coat hanging in your closet belongs to the poor man."

Something I truly believe is that if we do nothing to act as stewards on this planet, and if we do not leave it the better for our passing, then we deserve to have our graves pissed upon by rabid dogs, for we are little more than they, and worthy of the end we receive. I am not presuming to tell my peers how they should live; rather, I am trying to inform myself and maybe trying to remember that I own nothing but my thoughts. One thought is this: if we do not pay attention to the plight of our world, our memories will be cursed through the ages, for indeed we have taken a Garden and turned it into a gutter.

Once again, where are you Esmerelda?

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 08 May 04 - 02:02 PM

El Greko - "They lost out because few were prepared to back their views to the end. And as they grew older they allowed daily compromise to eat away at their ideals"

How true. Many of those ideals were lost in the pragmatic decisions regarding the well-being of the children that were born to them but in many cases, the torch was passed. In most cases, however, the movement was chalked-up as a bit of romantic history by those who were, in reality, 'week-end hippies'. I know plenty of people, however, who still embrace the principles of peaceful revolution.

I think the internet has provided the older generation with a means of influencing generations to come. As previously stated, teachers are encouraged to 'teach to the test' and stay far away from controversial, political issues. Teaching children to make decisions based on critical thought is left to all of us.

Sadly, many parents never discuss politics, consumerism or environment with their children. When both parents must work full-time to provide the basics, there is very little down time at home and not much interpersonal communication.

That said, I still think it is a parental responsibility to make the sacrifices necessary to raise, thoughtful, caring human beings. Sadly, the emphasis continues to be on competition rather than co-operation.

Every aspect of our society needs to stop rushing to accumulate material wealth and begin to value the benefits of ethical and sustainable communities. We are blessed with the benefits and should be showing the world how it can be done. Otherwise, the underdeveloped nations will only want to emulate our consumer consciousness and we will be locked in a struggle to compete for dwindling resources.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Hey, "defeatist" or "resignation", it's a matter of perspective, I guess. A realist would call it resignation, an idealist would simply say that resignation to inability to influence is defeatism. Both would call it "compromise", and each would mean something slightly different by it. The song I referred to is precisely about how the ideals of youth are compromised as we grow older (or more realistic). It isn't a political song, but rather a reflection on the state of humanity. Nevertheless, I would give a lot for it to become redundant in 3 years...

Agree about the humour - best weapon I know.

Hey, how about sending comedians to the front? I could name one or two...

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:45 PM

What -- nothing more to address the question? Going once...

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: pdq
Date: 08 May 04 - 12:34 PM

El Greko...I believe the term "deaftist" applies to someone who knows or believes that he has been defeated. What I refer to is more "resignation". It is the ability to face the fact that you can only do so much, then either scale back your efforts or turn the job over to those who are younger or more motivated.

One point about humor is that it is the greatest way to make mean people realise that you cannot be defeated by them. Seeing other people happy and laughing makes "blue meanies" real mad.

Please write some more great songs, but remember what Benjamin Franklin said: "guests and fish may smell in three days and political songs smell in three years".

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:59 AM

So what else needs to be built up in the Dpartment? Brainstorming, that's what. And what else?

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 May 04 - 05:25 AM

Awww I'm tickled that brucie and dianavan have kissed and made up!

Don't worry, El Greko, enough cookies to go around, and in time, when sent that recipe, some ultra delicious snickerdoodles!

Time to go to the UN and pass around a few thousand..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:08 AM

Sorry, Ellenpoly's I meant - she won't give me any now...:-(

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:07 AM

Though dianavan's cookie recipe might have a quicker and certainly tastier effect...;-)

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 May 04 - 03:06 AM

pdq, mentioned above the subject of control with respect to ensuring peace ("As the circle gets larger, we have less and less control. By the time we are dealing with nations of 1/2 billion people or religions of a billion people, each of us, as individuals has little or no control over what happens").

While on the face of it it seems a realistic attitude, it niggled at me, because it feels like a shrugging of shoulders, almost defeatist (not characterising anyone here, just making conversation, right?).

To counter that, the example of Ghandi comes to mind. He had no control over his countrymen, he did not issue edicts or orders for others to follow. All he did was state his view and provide an example with his behaviour. Yet, see how easily he influenced events in his country, not to mention attitudes worldwide.

Or the guy who was seen by millions trying to block the tank with his body in Tienanmen Square. He too influenced attitudes well beyond his immediate span of control.

They were both just individuals, yet it seems that they could influence outcomes outside their immediate circle. It may take sacrifice to achieve it. But then, it all depends on how strongly you feel about something.

And I think that this willingness to pay a high price is a telling point. The flower-power movement could/should have had a more far reacihng effect than it did, for example. It was full of benign (and often naive) intentions. They lost out because few were prepared to back their views to the end. And as they grew older they allowed daily compromise to eat away at their ideals. Which is the story of adulthood, for most of us.

"...But we've arrived; and as we pat each other's backs
our principles we now betray.
And year on year, as we 'progress' and we 'advance'
it's not just hair that's turning grey"
("The Flowers And The Guns")

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 08 May 04 - 02:20 AM

Apology accepted. Now have one of Ellenpoly's cookies. Soon I will send her a recipe for snickerdoodles. My grandma used to make them with an 'X' on top, sprinkled with sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:19 PM

dianavan: I am sorry. I had said on another thread that I can be a real ass at time. Now you know I spoke the truth. Please excuse me.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: mg
Date: 07 May 04 - 09:01 PM

These are not quite handouts.   It is a way of also getting rid of our waste management problem. I am not talking about sending our garbage to other lands. But good, working equipment, such as hospitals and universities stockpile. And if some stuff does not work, and it is being sent to a country, say Mexico, which has a good number of mechanics, they can strip it and use the steel and wire for other things. Or fix it if it is broken. Amend the wiring for their country. One thing we need, in addition to going metric here, is a worldwide electrial system. Ours of course. Refrigerators are so awesome. Not just for food, but the chain of refrigeration for vaccines and medicines. And one story I saw on the telly showed going to a landfill, finding 17 or so old refrigerators, plugging them in, and they all worked. I was in Czechoslovakia when they were changing rapidly, and they would have been so helped with more refrigeration and just ways to cover food. Think of what we could do just with plastic bags we are drowning in. Or others could do. COver their water jugs in Africa so they don't get guiniea worm. Simple as that. Mormons of course do a great job getting stuff overseas. Every little church used to have a mission barrel a hundred years ago. Why can't we do that now?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 08:21 PM

Mary - of course you're right but there is no profit in doing so. It could be done but selling weapons is much more profitable. Same with distributing food. Isn't it interesting that we always manage to get the food and goods to our troops but not to the people of the country they occupy?

I know that giving people 'hand-outs' is not a long term solution but I do think that it might go along way toward restoring peace and giving the people an opportunity to help themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: mg
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:45 PM

Excellent idea about shipping surplus..or what we call landfill, which often can be very useful stuff, like old computers, refrigerators, clothing etc. We do not have a department of shipping stuff, to my knowledge, and whenever there is a catastrophe somewhere people want money. We have a lot of stuff. It should be given to these places actually prior to catastrophes for them to have on hand for everyday poverty plus earthquakes etc. We only think now in terms of airplanes and fast delivery of stuff. Some stuff, used bedding, towels, clothes, toys, bikes, can take the slow boat to wherever. You have to be sure it does not harbor germs, but that can be taken care of by thorough cleaning, with steam perhaps, and airing in the sun, which some of these places have in abundance. We need something below the Red Cross that collects and distributes stuff prior to emergencies and we need to have ongoing collectiona and distribution. If nothing else, a whole lot of trains to Mexico. mg

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:40 PM

Amos - Seems to me that if we spent as much time and energy creating methods of transporting and distributing food as we do on weapons, we might actually achieve peace.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:11 PM

A serious proposal could be a good start. Book-length, spiral-bound with color graphs and plates.

Another departmental section could have to do with using surpluses for peace. For a lot less than it costs us to run a PAC Fleet Exercise every year we could fill ships wityh surplus building materials, excess piping and plywood, and surplus grain and oranges and ship them out to places where hunger is getting in the way.
Doesn't make sense we can afford to send our biggest eaters with weapons and MREs, but not food supplies for the locals...

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Deda
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:02 PM

I think it must be nap time. Naps are very good. Everyone should have them.

So how can we get a Department of Peace? Short of electing Dennis Kucinich, which just ain't realistic.

AID (state dept's Agency for International Development) was supposed to be a move in that direction, and maybe it is, but we don't hear much about it. Ditto the Peace Corps, which I'm sure is still doing good work around the world, where it hasn't been chased out (they've pulled their volunteers out of Mauritania in the last year).

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:36 AM

Ah, El Greko, DO have a cookie...take two!..;-)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:24 AM

Judging by this thread, "Gobstoppers" might be a good idea ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:05 AM

I've never heard of these, dianavan. If they're chocolate, I'll certainly do my best to add them to my growing list of tasty things to offer at the next Peace Conference!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:21 AM

Thanks Ellenpoly - Do you have any snickerdoodles?

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 May 04 - 04:07 AM

Anyone want a cookie?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:17 AM

brucie - you took that comment about your hours all wrong! I was saying that it was a conservative estimate (that you had probably worked more than that). I was actually agreeing with your post.

When I called you class clowns, I thought, being a teacher you would know what I was talking about. Oh well... Whatever...

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:16 AM

You guys wanna take it outside on the playground? :>) Now, don't get all serious on me. You are two of my favorite posters and I would hate to see either of you get all tiffed up. I have been all tiffed up, and I know from first-hand experience it ain't worth it, honest. Find some soft answers, and turn away wrath reciprocally.

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:47 PM

dianavan: You said, "I'm not a dumping ground."

Neither is anyone else, lady.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:41 PM

dianavan: You wrote, "brucie and pdq are just being rude because they have nothing else to say. They get alot of mileage out of being class clowns. You know, if you have nothing meaningful to contribute, just say something cute or funny so people don't think you're just plain stupid."

dianavan: You wrote, "I really don't want to hear insults or name calling or mockery - I hear it from children everyday. I don't expect it from adults."

Yep!

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:35 PM

dianavan: Your nerves are shot. Relax. I am not the last word on what's polite or rude. I simply think YOU are rude. You are mouthy and offensive at times, this having been one of them. Many people will disagree with me. You will likely be one of them. However, look at this:

"Gee brucie - only 2247 hours? Thats conservative."

The above was a remark you made to me after I'd written on the thread you started entitled "General Strike in British Columbia" that I tracked the hours I worked in my fourth year of teaching. No, my dear, it was not conservative. It was an accurate record of the hours I worked give or take two hours. You see, you just had to 'correct'. You are abusive and offensive. People like you are the reason we won't have world peace. Because only your opinion will ever count. No one else knows as much as you. Must be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:29 PM

I believe there is plenty for JUST the Education arm to do; but then there is the economic arm. Their job would NOT be to offer free money, but to provide ways to enable infrastructure, primarily energy and water, and seed capital under carefully nurturing conditions, including education on alternatives.

If there is an infrastructure that enables energy and water to be available, almost anything can eventually be brought about, absent violence. At leasst that's my liberal optimist perspective on it...

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Deda
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:22 PM

A madras (emphasis on the second syllable, similar to morass) is an Islamic school. They exist all over the arab world, and many of them teach virulent anti-semitism from pre-school on. It's been covered by 60 minutes et al.

I do think that a department of Peace would have to look at the teaching of racism, systematically and institutionally, wherever it appears. Undo this: "you've got to be taught to fear and hate / people whose skin is a different shade / you've got to be carefully taught.."

Two other things that would dramatically forward peace around the world:
(1) eliminate child-beating and wife-beating. (How? Well, that's the job of the department of Peace! But it would take a massive outreach and education program, to start with.)
(2) Educate all girls and women, at least through high school to start with.
Hatred and violence don't just pop up in graduate schools. They are planted much earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 11:07 PM

I can think of a few times when I have "let it fly" but I do not remember ever giving you an earful, brucie.

Here goes - Since when were you the last word on what is polite or what is rude? I can think of plenty of offensive comments you have made (I, personally, was not offended) but I have certainly read less than polite comments from you and your friend, pdq, directed at others.

Doesn't really matter if you like me or not. I didn't come here to win a popularity contest but to find out what others thought about current issues and exchange opinions. I rarely cast the first stone but I am not above throwing it back even harder.

Actually, brucie, most of the time I am offended by the way you "suck up" to some of the people who actually are rude.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:28 PM

ditto from here, bro...

Ohm: a unit of resistance

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 04 - 10:10 PM

dianavan: We all have bad days. I have never taken you to task on anything. In keeping with the title of this post, I won't. I will say that tolerance for non-mainstream opinions might be a place for you to start. Peace starts within the self.

I don't mind what you write about whatever you write about. I don't assume you're a feminist, realist or necessarily any other kind of 'ist'. You are however a bit dictatorial and very rude.

OHM

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:48 PM

Bobert, I think you may have mis-read what Deda was saying, because it sounded awful similar to what you're saying. Mebbe look agin? I didn't see any wagging fingers. Ithink what she said was "negotiate a change in curriculum". Sounds similar to me...



A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:30 PM

Absolutely wrong, Deda. Wrong, wrong, wrong...

The teachings of peace thru a Department of Peace would not wag fingers but find win-win solutions to conflict. That ***can*** be done without waggin' fingers and layin' blame...

Conflict resolution is being taught in many schools around the country and it is very much helpful. Take it to a larger problem, bring in folks who have win'win mantalities and you'd be amazed at how far such a program, especially if it was a coming from a Department within the govrenment, with cabinet stattus, and Lockheed Martin would be in the RV business...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 09:10 PM

By "madrases" you mean mother-schools, like kindergartens? I'm not familiar with the term...But if so, there is a helluva program.

A planet-scale campaign to dispel false images of others as evil. The rot is wide spread. Man, what a lot of good that could do!!

Educational campaigns about the difference between harm and belief could follow -- however it should be designed. Toleration 101. Maybe "Live Communication 101" as well.

Well there's one whole section hard at work using the taxpayer's mopney to do some positive change.

What else?

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:33 PM

Deda         Now that IS the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Deda
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:29 PM

I'd say that a Department of Peace would need to negotiate a change in curriculum in the various madrases around the world that teach small children that the Jews are the source of all evil in the world. And whatever other instances they may find of racial brainwashing in early childhood education around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:25 PM

Amos,
"What strategic and tactical programs should a Deparmtent of Peace pursue in order to address and defuse the root causes of violence among people??"

I suggest a start could be made by an earnest attempt to address grievances.
Ammong other things, the Arabs are pissed off because they were promised an independent homeland if they would just help beat the Turks, and then had to watch as their territory was divided up by the superpowers, leaving them next to nothing.
This is just an example. There are many peoples with many grievances which need to be addressed, and I emphasise EARNESTLY.

John

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 07:39 PM

I am surprised and not a little chagrined at the apathy and indifference. The ideas that ultimately change how the world turns have to come from one person, initially. If not you, who? (If not now, when?) .

C'mon you guys...

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 May 04 - 07:01 PM

Agree, pdq. The subject is indeed too big for a "solution" to be found here. We are no think tank. But airing opinions is OK too, just letting off steam. No harm done.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Amos
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:03 PM

Bobert:

If a department of Peace were to be created, say, it would have to be surely seperate fromt he Deprtment opf Defense, no? Perhyaps they could split the budget.

So here is the real puzzler of the ages.   A lot of brilliant analytical thought has gone into our systems of war, from bootlaces to smartbombs and satellites and sidearms and submarines. Amazing. What strategic and tactical programs should a Deparmtent of Peace pursue in order to address and defuse the root causes of violence among people??

Personally I think they would have to start with a long survey of successful Public Relations campaigns, the kind that have captured people's fancy and inspired voluntary enthusiasm. Then, they would have to do some similar analysis to identify the patterns that produce violence, including the influence of divisive rumor-mongering by third parties, for example, as a key mechanism often overlooked, and the promulgation of false ideas (AMericans eat babies for breakfast) and so on - a catalogue of key mechanisms and ways to address them.

A billion a year to start and you'd see results all across the planet within three to five years. And no angry widows, orphans or bereft parents!

So what other strategic targets should such a department pursue to be effective??

A

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 04 - 03:13 PM

El Greko...quite right, that was a bit of a stretch. However, anyone who thinks that a topic as huge and complicated as this will produce any meaningful answers, especially on an informal "folk music" forum, is also stretching. I am quite sure you know that our actions toward each other, on a personal basis, are well within our control. As the circle gets larger, we have less and less control. By the time we are dealing with nations of 1/2 billion people or religions of a billion people, each of us, as individuals has little or no control over what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:22 PM

I reckon so...
Don't try tooo hard, pdq, you'll strain something;-)

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Megan L
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:53 PM

from whats said in here as long as two humans survive there will never be world peace so best extinguish the species and let some other animal take over

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: pdq
Date: 06 May 04 - 01:17 PM

As a man once sai, while swinging a legume plant over his head:

       "Imagine twirled peas"

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:43 AM

Hey, dianavan, don't beat yourself too hard. Only yesterday I told GUEST,Ooh-Aah in another thread to attempt self-procreation. I was kinda sorry afterwards that I flipped my lid, but this pacifist had had too much.

We also need some humour to help keep perspective; I don't mind brucie's and pdq's "speaking with their mouth full" (that's what you were doing guys, right?). When it comes to perspective/humour, Jeremy Taylor says it for me in his "Reasonable Man".

And you can move from humour back to the seriousness easily. My favorite slogan - wish I'd thought of it - is Robb Johnson's:

"Be reasonable - demand the impossible NOW!"

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: dianavan
Date: 06 May 04 - 12:56 AM

brucie and pdq - my apologies for the rather mean remark. Perhaps I misunderstood your posts but it appeared that you were "making fun" of the mostly thoughtful comments that people had contributed.

I really am not "hateful" but I also think that sometimes people need to be told very bluntly to "back off". Lately, I have been more intolerant - possibly because of the situation in Iraq. I have also been pushed to the limit by other mudcatters that insist on branding me anti-American, feminist or whatever name or label they can attach when I don't agree with them. I'm not a dumping ground.

I agree with the concept of peace starting at home and in your community. I admit that I haven't been a very good expample of that here on Mudcat. I have not yet learned to turn the other cheek. I will probably never be that meek. This is a cyber community and I joined so that I could have meaningful discussions with people from all over the world. I really don't want to hear insults or name calling or mockery - I hear it from children everyday. I don't expect it from adults.

Subject: RE: BS: World peace possible.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:41 PM

Hitler's regime was hardly atheistic. They got along fine with the Roman Catholic and most of the other Christian churches in Germany and various other countries, and every German soldier wore a belt buckle with the slogan "Gott Mitt Uns" (God is on our side)...and believed it too! They were very consciously fighting for Christendom against atheistic Communism.

However, I am not disputing your basic point, shadygrove. Atheistic regimes have been every bit as effective at wiping out innocent people if not more so, and the quasi-religious regimes like the Nazis were really after the usual dark objectives...land, resources, political and financial power, and military supremacy. God was an afterthought, a handy propaganda piece to motivate the ordinary soldiers to fight harder.

You might have included Mao Tse-Tung and the other Chinese Communist leaders among the atheists who have murdered millions of people. The invasion of Tibet and the destruction of its ancient Buddhist society is a prime example of genocide in the name of atheism.

- LH