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BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and.....
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Subject: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 18 May 04 - 03:18 PM It has been over 24 hrs. and no one has mentioned...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Once Famous Date: 18 May 04 - 03:30 PM Me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 18 May 04 - 03:31 PM ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: wysiwyg Date: 18 May 04 - 03:32 PM Baby-killing, pagan-hating Christians. Ooops, maybe I'm wrong.... Well in case I am right I have at least rectified the omission. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,Shlio Date: 18 May 04 - 03:35 PM Politics. No? Too much to hope for really. How about rubbish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 18 May 04 - 06:33 PM William Shatner? Damn..... Now we'll not STOP hearing about him. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Irish sergeant Date: 18 May 04 - 06:38 PM Squeaky Fromme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 18 May 04 - 07:39 PM No one has it yet, Not even close. Actually semi-serious. Perhaps I should add ....no specific thread mentions... Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 18 May 04 - 07:43 PM Indian Election? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: open mike Date: 18 May 04 - 08:21 PM May 17, 1949 Robin McG's birtheday?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 May 04 - 08:23 PM Happy Birthday? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: JennyO Date: 18 May 04 - 10:31 PM Farts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 19 May 04 - 12:18 AM Music? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 19 May 04 - 12:21 AM Farts is closest but stil lightyears away |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: LadyJean Date: 19 May 04 - 12:29 AM bagpipes |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 May 04 - 12:35 AM V.D. ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: katlaughing Date: 19 May 04 - 12:40 AM A Mighty Wind? Songcatcher? (Actually, I think it's been lots longer than 24 hrs for both of those!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amergin Date: 19 May 04 - 12:50 AM the pure worship of nathan tompkins? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 19 May 04 - 12:52 AM The answer is political in nature and I noticed this more as an " Ain't that interesting" rather than a lets bring this up and start a fight. So I'm hoping I'll see someone else find the answer and start the thread. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Benjamin Date: 19 May 04 - 01:03 AM Moris Dancing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: open mike Date: 19 May 04 - 01:41 AM it is wysiwyg's birthdya tomorrow--or is it today where yo ulive? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 01:47 AM Maybe everybody's waiting to see if it's worth talking about...... yet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 19 May 04 - 02:32 AM BigPinkLad and Ooh Aah? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Metchosin Date: 19 May 04 - 04:01 AM rubbish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 19 May 04 - 04:05 AM Hull? Aardvarks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,freda Date: 19 May 04 - 04:07 AM Michael Moore's film, "Fahrenheit 9/11," , "a two-hour attack on President George W. Bush" made its debut Monday at the Cannes International Film Festival? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: fat B****rd Date: 19 May 04 - 04:07 AM Larks Tongues In Aspic ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 19 May 04 - 04:08 AM Hey wasn't that an album by King Crimson? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: fat B****rd Date: 19 May 04 - 04:09 AM Yes. That is to say it is an album by KC not Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Ella who is Sooze Date: 19 May 04 - 04:15 AM John O'Lennaine... big pink lad and oo ah... Laugh, I nearly fell of my chair.... thanks for the smile this morning.... very funny way of putting it! Ella! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: mooman Date: 19 May 04 - 04:16 AM Dubya? Peace moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: The DeanMeister Date: 19 May 04 - 04:18 AM Punch the Horse? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Sttaw Legend Date: 19 May 04 - 05:06 AM harriWattsband |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 19 May 04 - 05:20 AM The Mick Tomlinson Experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 08:56 AM manatees |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 19 May 04 - 09:12 AM Emmerson Lake and Palmer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amergin Date: 19 May 04 - 09:20 AM the death of the head of the iraqi governing council? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Rapparee Date: 19 May 04 - 09:22 AM Musical farts that blow purple powder on Blair? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: wysiwyg Date: 19 May 04 - 09:24 AM GWB ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 19 May 04 - 09:27 AM Darva Conger The Cast from the Apprentice Richard Hatch Michael Jackson Robert Blake Geraldo Rivera Lacey Peterson Alan Dershowitz Bill Gates Hillary Clinton Susan Sharandon Barbra Steisand John Ashcroft George Steinbrenner Jimmy Swaggert Rush Limbaugh Al Franken We can only hope this trend continues |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: freda underhill Date: 19 May 04 - 09:32 AM hamsters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: mooman Date: 19 May 04 - 09:49 AM 9? £57? Peace |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: freda underhill Date: 19 May 04 - 10:29 AM how long has it been now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 10:34 AM freda, that is an awfully personmal question.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,ladyjane Date: 19 May 04 - 10:37 AM Jim McCallan: What's this with Indian Elections??? My husband just had... OOps! Sorry! I misread that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: JennyO Date: 19 May 04 - 11:51 AM Spaw? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 04 - 12:22 PM Would All Bran help? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: CarolC Date: 19 May 04 - 12:30 PM One of Colin Powell's aids moved the camera off him while he was being interviewed and focused it instead on the beautiful Mediterranean because she didn't like the question he'd been asked, and he had to tell her to get out of the way? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 19 May 04 - 12:56 PM Amergin is closest, Knocking on the door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Deda Date: 19 May 04 - 01:17 PM What folk music is, really? The stolen election of 2000? Al Gore? Hubert Humphrey? Millard Filmore? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 01:34 PM Sorry I didn't look in here before. Could it be the fact that they've found some other poor sod to put in the place of the assassinated "leader," and that poor guy is supposedly leading a "sovereign Iraqi government" in six weeks' time? I don't envy him being the one Bremer pinned the tail on. And then there's this little tidbit:
"We have a hundred detainees (who were) senior leaders of the former regime, including Saddam Hussein, Tareq Aziz and Ali Hasan al-Majid," lawyer Salam Chalabi, the tribunal's director general, said on arrival at Kuwait airport. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 19 May 04 - 01:56 PM I hyope they don't announce the date and place of transferring Saddam and his hundred men. They're likely to be liberated by a sudden raid, Robin Hood style. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 02:53 PM the russian hostages freed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 19 May 04 - 04:42 PM terrorism? suicide bombers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,Ed Date: 19 May 04 - 05:30 PM It has been over 24 hrs. and..... DonMeixner hasn't told us what we're suppossed to be guessing at! Sorry, never much liked guessing games. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: DonMeixner Date: 19 May 04 - 05:52 PM Hi Ed, You are right I haven't. I have been at odds to ask the question myself because I'm sure it will be a hot button issue. But here goes. There is documented use of a nerve agent as well as mustard gass in Iraq by unidentified isnsurgents from undifined places and it didn't seem to raise enough dust in the forum to rate its own thread. Possible proof of the existence of those famous and undiscovered WMDs. Personally I think it is a big deal and it bumps this mess up another notch. Where do we go from here? No clue, home I hope. I prefered all the other answers to this one believe me. And I could have sworn I made this almost very same reply last night. Seems to have gotten lost in the electrons. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 06:07 PM from the BS: Torture thread- "Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them. Seems like a flaw in the logic, somehwere. If the hardware is not the weapon, and the chemicals are not the weapon, what is? " It does not appear to matter what WMDs are found, or even used. There are those who have decided that the US is wrong, regardless of whatever happens. Some of them lost a lot of money ( present and future) when Saddam was removed. Some just do not like the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dick greenhaus Date: 19 May 04 - 06:40 PM The shell that was fired is, more properly, a Weapon of Minimal Destruction. Sorry about the confusion. Or does W really think that Iraq was planning on shelling us? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 06:43 PM ANY chemical weapon, by definition, is a WMD. Sorry Dick, that is the way it is. If someone uses a nuke on us, and it fizzles, I doubt if we will ignore it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 06:53 PM The report I heard about this (probably on NPR or BBC radio) concluded that the shell (containing sarin) was quite old, and probably overlooked when the weapons were destroyed after the 1991 war. The thought was that these shells number in the 10s or 100s, but don't amount to an arsenal of WMDs. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:00 PM What Hans Blix said "US Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said in Baghdad that two soldiers were treated for minor exposure to sarin, but no serious injuries were reported. He said he believed that insurgents who planted the explosive didn't know it contained the nerve agent" That is the trouble with not letting the Weapons Inspectors finish their job, in my opinion. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:01 PM Overlooked???? When the UN inspectors were doing such a wonderful job??????????? Either the inspectors were doing a good job, or not. The claim that we should have let them continue, in the face of blatent violations of the terms of the 91 ceasefire, is based on how competent they were. BUT THEY MISSED 10s or 100s OF SHELLS?????? SO All of you outy there concede that the inspectors were not capable of dealing with Saddam, and the US was entitles, nay, REQUIRED by international law in invade. Thank you for seeing the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:07 PM Yes, but Bruce, as I have said before, it was not the US' responsibility to enforce the UN resoultions on their own. I see the UN have passed a resolution condemming the killing of those civilians in Gaza. Wanna invade? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:10 PM No, but as parties to the 91 ceasefire we did have obligations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Rapparee Date: 19 May 04 - 07:20 PM I'm not going to get into this, but here's a quote from "The Nation's" website: "In an October 2002 speech, Bush said Iraq had a "massive stockpile" of weapons of mass destruction. Vice President Dick Cheney claimed "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction...that he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." In his famous presentation to the United Nations Security Council, Secretary of State Colin Powell declared, "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq, today, has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent."" From the article "WMDs gone MIA": "On Aug. 26, 2002, Vice President Cheney told the VFW, "Stated simply, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us." On Dec. 2, Ari Fleischer told the White House press corps, "You've heard the president say repeatedly that he has chemical and biological weapons." On Jan. 7, 2003, Fleischer added, "We know for a fact that there are weapons there." Also in January, Rumsfeld declared, "There's no doubt in my mind that they currently have chemical and biological weapons." In his Feb. 8 radio address, Bush declared, "We have sources that tell us that Saddam recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons—the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have." Cheney added in March, "We believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." On March 17, on the eve of war, President Bush told the nation "Intelligence … leaves no doubt that the Iraqi regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." So persuaded, America united behind the president and went to war. Something is terribly wrong here. It is impossible to believe the president would deliberately lie to the nation when he knew the full truth would be discovered at war's end in a few weeks. Either he was misled, or he was deceived, and, so, too, was Secretary of State Colin Powell. Who did it? Who was responsible for the intelligence failure, or the dishonest use of selected intelligence, or the conscious and deliberate deceit of a president and secretary of state? Where are the weapons? We have searched 300 sites and arms dumps and found not one shell. If Saddam had the weapons, why did he not use them? If he destroyed them before the war, as Rumsfeld now argues, he fulfilled the terms of Resolution 1441 and could have saved himself by showing UN inspectors where and how he did it. Why would Saddam let himself, his family, and his regime perish protecting weapons he either no longer had or did not intend to use? Is it possible Iraq never had that vast arsenal of anthrax, VX, sarin, and mustard gas we were led to believe? Did the intelligence agencies fail us, or did someone "cook the books" to meet the recipe for an imperial war? It is time Congress investigated the Office of Special Plans, set up in the Pentagon to sift and interpret all intelligence and placed under neoconservative super-hawk, Paul Wolfowitz." This last is from "The American Conserative" (June 30, 2003) and was written by Pat Buchanan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:29 PM let me see... we went in in 2003... the ceasefire was 1991... 12 years and the inspectors couldn't find 100s of shells. These are not rifle cartridges, you know. I think if they had not been HIDDEN they might have seen them. If they looked. If they were not in some palace. If they were not manufactured after the war, in violation of the ceasefire and the UN resolutions. But I guess Saddam had to spend all that oil money on something, since he did not want to feed his people. Oh- I forgot- he had to replace the WMD that he had used on his own people... Tens of thousands, but since they were only Kurds, we don't want to mention anything about them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 07:50 PM "let me see... we went in in 2003..." and it is now 1 full year later. Remember that this weapon were not 'found'. And no amount of killing and torture of Iraqis, nor the apprehension of the people on 'The Deck Of Cards', has yet found any. I was always certain that there was the possibility of a few 'strays' turning up, and I certainly hope that they will be few and far between. But it is in no way indicitive of the "... conservative estimate is that Iraq, today, has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent." One swallow doesn't make a summer, Bruce. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 07:56 PM "Remember that this weapon were not 'found'. And no amount of killing and torture of Iraqis, nor the apprehension of the people on 'The Deck Of Cards', has yet found any." Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found. and the chemicals are so easy that anyone can make them, remember? If every time some evidence is found, the answer is that this is not all, I will agree- it is not all. But that does not mean that it is not there, just that we have not found it, or it was removed or destroyed in the time that the UN gave Saddam. Do you feel comfortable knowing that SOMEWHERE there may be 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons, NOT under the control of any responsible party? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:05 PM "Do you feel comfortable knowing that SOMEWHERE there may be 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons, NOT under the control of any responsible party?" Of course I don't, Bruce, but I think our energies (and tax money) would have been better spent actually looking for them, rather than blasting in there, and creating the situation that we have now, of nobody knowing anything, anymore. Iraq could be brimming with WMDs at this stage, for all we know. The 'biggies', I mean. They may not have been there before we went in. Using sledgehammers to strike nails, again. That's what we might get for our haste in turning the place into anarchy. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds- but the UN would not have stood for that. Just like they withdrew their forces when confronted by the situation in Rwanda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 19 May 04 - 08:42 PM I have no party affiliations in the US, beardedbruce; one can be as bad as the other, if you ask me. I don't like the hyporicy of certain standpoints; that's mostly my problem with all of this... Not quite off topic, but interesting, all the same: Bush abandons his 'favourite son' Chalabi Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 19 May 04 - 09:53 PM beardedbruce - Sarin can be made by anyone with the desire to make it. I'm not sure you can blame Saddam for this incident. He's not in power anymore. If you want to blame, maybe you should blame the people who are now in control of Iraq. I haven't seen them turn up any evidence of stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons. Besides that, there are plenty of other countries who have WMD. The U.S. and Israel included. The source of that sarin could have come from anywhere. Just because it was discovered on Iraqi soil doesn't mean it was an Iraqi weapon. Any terrorist group from anywhere could have made it. I too am worried for the safety of the coalition forces but I think the damage from nerve gas is significantly lower than the nervous disorders that have resulted from fatigue, trauma, emotional stress and immoral behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 May 04 - 10:50 PM beardedbruce, you're grasping at straws. You certainly drew some screwy conclusions from what I posted and put words in there that I never said. I can easily imagine a single large cache of this stuff existing and having been missed. I can imagine a single large cache of this being hidden by Saddam. But of all of the things he'd choose to keep caches of, is this the one he'd bet the nation on? I think everyone missed it during the inspections the first time round, and they never had a chance to discover it the second time round, cause your boy Dubya decided to shoot first and ask questions later. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? I think you're certifiably insane. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 20 May 04 - 04:29 PM dianavan: I do not blame Saddam for THIS incident- I blame him for the stockpile of chemical projectiles that were found in the initial invasion. NONE of the other countries with WMD signed a ceasefire, under the condition that they eliminated all WMD. ( Well, we will NOT talk about Korea- the ceasefire does not mention WMD) Or should I talk about the 17 UN resolutions? Stilly: Try reading what I write, instead of what you want to have had me write. You may think me whatever you want- but I was here in the 60's. If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over. I will consider their arguements that they just wanted the poor cambodians to enjoy the country air. Remember the domino theory? seems to have been true, regardless of what people wanted to believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: 42 Date: 20 May 04 - 05:45 PM How could anyone think that any party in charge of chemical weapons is "responsible"? It's either ours or theirs? We're right and responsible and they're subversive and malignant? i shiver at the thought. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 20 May 04 - 10:29 PM Beardedbruce - all the better reason to bring back the UN weapons inspectors to finish the their job. Seems the U.S. left out alot of important information about the discovery of the sarin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: fat B****rd Date: 21 May 04 - 03:24 AM ........nobody's responded to the original thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 May 04 - 11:16 AM beardedbruce, you need to change your name to Archie Bunker.
This is a logical fallacy of ad hominem variety (tu quoque), beardedbruce. I was here in the 60's too, pal, and you couldn't get away with that argument then just as you can't get way with it now. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 May 04 - 11:17 AM And why not? Just because you don't want to believe that your actions could cause any harm? IF the anti-war folks were effective, the policies that they pushed the US into were at least in part responsible for the Pol Pot takeover of Cambodia. So you claim that the anti-war folks had no effect on US policies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:48 AM No, I claimed that anti-war activists and deaths oversees are not linked in the way your "logical fallacy" tries to link them. You're not arguing 2 + 2 = 4, you're arguing 1 + 5 = orange. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:49 AM overseas |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,noddy Date: 24 May 04 - 12:00 PM YESTERDAY! I win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 May 04 - 06:16 PM "If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over." I seem to have made too large a logical step for some of you. 1. If ANYONE in uniform is guilty of being a baby-killer, just by being in uniform, since some people in uniform were baby killers ( and prosecuted for it), then if I show that some members of the anti-war group were murderers, I can claim that they all are. 2. It is recorded historical fact that when Jane Fonda went to Hanoi, and was televised with 5 POWs, they slipped her peices of paper with their names and serial numbers. She then gave those papers to the North Vietnamese officer, and 4 of the 5 POWs were killed- the 5th survived and returned home at a later date. This was the act of a traitor, and was tantamont to murder. case stated. Care to show a logical error? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 May 04 - 11:48 PM beardedbruce, you didn't research this, obviously, or you never would have posted that old saw. It makes your entire argument all that much weaker that you can't even cite facts. The Snopes pages doesn't paint Jane as very bright:
This said, you need to read a little farther:
"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda." SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 07:55 AM "It is also undeniable that some American soldiers came to harm as a direct result of Fonda's actions, an outcome she should reasonably have anticipated." OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 08:34 AM Selective memory syndrome eh beardedbruce, what about the rest of the crap you quoted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 08:41 AM I am checking to see what eveidence exists on BOTH sides of the disputed point. I will state, however, that my logic is shown valid. My item 2 is in dispute- sobeit. But you cannot tell me that there were NO ACTS of violence or assult by the anti-war people. Not and tell the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 08:53 AM The disputed point is really the central pillar of your post and it has been shown to be crap, accept it. Your logic hold no water in my view, your wording is as twisted as your poetry, rambling and incoherant tripe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 09:18 AM Sounds like I hit a nerve- Who did you kill???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 09:45 AM I have never lifted a weapon in anger in my life, any suffering I may have caused is nothing I think compared to the suffering caused by your dreadful poetry. My nerves are fine by the way, thank you for asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 09:47 AM We could allways broadcast your poems 24 hours a day on Iraqi radio and TV, the militents would soon give in, a bloodless vistory, but would that then count as mass torture? Even you can't be that cruel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 09:55 AM Well, I could... But will you concede that, logically, if I can produce even ONE act of murder by the anti-war people, my statement is LOGICALLY valid? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:04 AM Logic is highly overrated look at the harm spock did to countless Star Trek scipts, but go on then dig up this murder you keep going on about, at the very least it'll stop you from producing any more poems for a while. Then once you have that bee out of your bonnet you can jump in the truck and head off to collect your latest copy of redneck monthly, hope you have fun coloring in the pictures. But one murder no matter how brutal it might be still bares no comaparison to the thoughtless killings at the wedding in Iraq that we are now seeing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:21 AM I thought it was acts of murder 'many times over', beardedbruce? Your argument is only valid for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:24 AM We were talking about 2 million cambodians, but I guess they are not people to you....Wrong ethnic group. And I may be conservative, but hardly a redneck. Talk about crap.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 04 - 10:25 AM No, Beardedbruce, because you were claiming hundreds of thousands of lives were lost due to the acts of anti-war activists. One does not prove your bogus "theory." And violent anti-war activists are enough of an oxymoron, just as the murderous acts of right-to-lifers, that they require a separate category for their sanctimonious acts, that of criminal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 25 May 04 - 10:26 AM 99 |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: el ted Date: 25 May 04 - 10:27 AM 100 I thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:29 AM No, beardedbruce, your argument is only valid for 'many times over'..., not ONE act of murder. You're trying to change the goalposts |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:34 AM " If ANYONE in uniform is a babykiller, then the anti-war folks are guilty of murder many times over. I will consider their arguements that they just wanted the poor cambodians to enjoy the country air." SRS: Wrong- see my statement. Guest: you are correct, I have to find multiple murders. Are you comfortable that I will not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:36 AM Beardedbruce, If you think any here condone any acts of murder, mass murder or otherwise of any group around the Globe then you are an idiot. Cambodia suffered, but it suffered 25 years ago, what good will your logic games do now, no matter how clever they may make you feel. The evnts in Irag are ongoing maybe you could direct your energies where they may actually do some good and save lives, or are "they" the wrong ethnic group for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Bill D Date: 25 May 04 - 10:42 AM " If ANYONE in uniform is guilty of being a baby-killer, just by being in uniform, since some people in uniform were baby killers ( and prosecuted for it), then if I show that some members of the anti-war group were murderers, I can claim that they all are." sorry, bruce...logical fallacy. equivocation on the term "anyone" (all members of the category vs. any SINGLE member of the category)..and the terms 'people in uniform' and 'members of the anti-war group' are not equivalent. (fallacy of the divided middle, I believe) dangerous place, this Mudcat....*grin*...you gotta be REAL careful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:42 AM " From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds- but the UN would not have stood for that. Just like they withdrew their forces when confronted by the situation in Rwanda. ...... Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan - PM Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then? Jim ........ Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? " THIS was my original comment.... Maube you should learn to read, as I stated earlier. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,Not 10.36 AM Guest Date: 25 May 04 - 10:45 AM "Are you comfortable that I will not?" I'm afraid it will have to be proven. It was a statement said and repeated, in all confidence, as if to qualify an argument. Something the Bush Administration has a certain propensity for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:49 AM Yes, beardedbruce, but the anti-war folks in the US can't take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians. I am comfortable that you cannot prove this |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:50 AM Keep it up beardedone, every minute spent here is a minute away from the poems, thank god! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:52 AM Here's a straw....., grasp it...... quick.., quick..., quick (too late!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:53 AM Bill: logical fallacy. equivocation on the term "anyone" (all members of the category vs. any SINGLE member of the category).." I know this is a logical fallacy- please see my "IF". I was commenting on the "fact" that some of us were accused of being baby-killers, quite forcefully, during the war because we were in uniform. I was in CAP, doing SAR in the DC area- no matter- I was a baby killer. But no-one working to end the war had any responsibility for the actions that were attributable to the US withdrawing, even thought they ( those working to end the war) caused that withdrawal. and the terms 'people in uniform' and 'members of the anti-war group' are not equivalent. (fallacy of the divided middle, I believe) I am not sure I understand this point- If there exists class of those in uniform, why can there not exist a class of those who are anti-war? How would you suggest I had worded it to include those people who were active in the anti-war demonstrations? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:55 AM Ahem.. there's a little question of 2 million dead Cambodians? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 10:57 AM Guest: So, you claim that the anti-war movement had no effect on the US, and did not cause the US government to withhdraw unilateraly from SE Asia???????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 10:58 AM Given beardedbruces facility with words, you would think his poems wouldn't stink so bad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:02 AM So bearded one, its better to carry on with a going nowhere war, also causing untold numbers of dead and widespread destruction than to try and halt it? Hitler took that path as well, which gave us the scenic ruins of Europe for all to enjoy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:03 AM beardedbruce: 25 May 04 - 10:57 AM "So, you claim that the anti-war movement had no effect on the US, and did not cause the US government to withhdraw unilateraly from SE Asia???????????? " Nope. You (on the other hand), attribute 2 million dead to it |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 04 - 11:05 AM Bush apparently spent much of his time last night again repeating his mantra that Iraq and Sept. 11 are one and the same. I predict that history will have a recording of his voice under the button one pushes to hear an example of the voice of evil. His argument is as fallacious as bruce's. Bruce, the argument is as idiotic when you repeat it down here in the thread as when you first posted it. Who gets credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? The Rwandans get that credit. Who gets credit for 2 million dead Cambodians? The Cambodians. You're taking unrelated events and trying to push them together as if they are cause and effect. What you're practicing isn't "Logic," it's illogic. It goes far beyond the "fuzzy" category to what you're trying to pull off. Take some time off. Do some reading. Here. and here and here are a whole bunch of places you can go look. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:06 AM You were telling fibs, beardedbruce. Weren't you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:08 AM Better a few fibs than his poems, I read one once. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 11:09 AM So, if/when we withdraw, and the various factions in Iraq slaughter one another, you will say that the US had no responsibility for the massacre? Or does your "logic" only apply to the other side of the political spectrum? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 11:12 AM Guest: By attacking my poetry rather than my statements, you have conceded that you think the statements are correct. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Bill D Date: 25 May 04 - 11:15 AM bruce...both 'people in uniform' and 'anti-war folks' are indeed classes, they are just not logically identical classes, since membership in the classes are based on different principles and definitions. It is easier to imagine if you create a class called "people wearing red hats"...some of whom may be murderers, but not by virute of their wearing red hats. To be the middle term in a syllogism, the terms should be identical. (Straining to wrap my head around this...it has been too many years since I was expected to get it right for a grade.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:16 AM After they have their "free" elections, what if they do ask the coaltition forces to leave, what then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM Afraid not beardedone, just that your poems are as odious as your statements. Might as well cover them both at the same time to save bandwidth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Bill D Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM bruce...you will note that those who can't deal with logic usually abuse it anonymously with ad hominem attacks....but you figgered that out already... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 25 May 04 - 11:21 AM Bill, IF the class of those in uniform were all baby-killers because some of the memebers of that class had killed babies THEN the class of those who were active in anti-war activities .... Guest: We leave, and the world gets to watch the slaughter... Just like you seem to want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:21 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM Nope. I would say if you ask the question "who's responsible for the loss of 10,000+ Iraqi lives and almost 1000 U.S. and allied lives" I'd have to answer George W. Bush. And the idiotic congress that let themselves be swept away by fear when they voted for this war. Not fear of Saddam, but fear of being labled anti-American cowards by Rove and Cheney and Bush (and as they would portray it, Americans in general) at such a time of pain. At a time when we should have paused and taken a careful and measured look at what was going on in the world, Bush took advantage of the injury to the American psyche to push his agenda forward, and everyone was treading so carefully HERE that they ignored their common sense and just let him have his way. More fools them. Now the U.S. does have this blood on it's hands, for no good reason. But it has nothing to do with 9-11, with Rwanda, with Cambodia, or with anything other than the ego of the heir of Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan, George Walker Bush. As he works through his feelings of inadequacy for having been a loser and a poor student and always needing a boost from Daddy and the family name he's out to finish what his daddy started in Iraq (and he doesn't buy the logic that his father stopped when he should have if he was going to go there at all) and Reagan's fiscal "let your friends get richer" policies. He's combining the two into the most atrocious excuse for an appointment to the presidency that I've ever seen. Oh, wait! I forgot Afghanistan! How silly of me! And they had nothing to do with it, either. Bush got a two-fer there, blew up two Moslem countries for the price of one atrocity on American soil. No wonder your thinking skills are messed up, brucie. You've been practicing Dubya's form of "logic." SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:30 AM 2 million Cambodians, bruce.....??????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 11:32 AM And the daily death tolls we are presented with currently are so much better because? You would rather it all carries on than take a chance that they can govern themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 May 04 - 11:56 AM "The Killing Fields." |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST Date: 25 May 04 - 12:05 PM Good movie |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: ToulouseCruise Date: 25 May 04 - 01:02 PM *sigh* I liked this thread back when we didn't know what it was 24 hrs since... can we start guessing again? Brian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: sledge Date: 25 May 04 - 01:32 PM Kiefer Sutherlands has saved the day again, good job he's around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 26 May 04 - 01:09 AM beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda? I also want to know this (since you are so good with statistices): What do you think the number killed by Saddam + the number that might possibly be killed if the U.S. withdraws might total? Add to that the loss of American freedoms + a deeply divided U.S. + the cost of the war, + loss of American credibility in the international community. Who are the losers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 10:40 AM dianavan: "beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda?" THAT is the question I was asking. "I also want to know this (since you are so good with statistices): What do you think the number killed by Saddam + the number that might possibly be killed if the U.S. withdraws might total? " too many Add to that the loss of American freedoms + a deeply divided U.S. + the cost of the war, + loss of American credibility in the international community. Who are the losers? " You did forget the number killed by all the WMD of Iraq's stockpile that may be used in the future..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 11:12 AM Beardedbruce: The WMDs of Iraq's stockpile...huh??? Your political insight is rivalled only by the depth of your poetry, I am afraid. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 11:15 AM try reading the entire post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 May 04 - 11:16 AM Hard to believe that Saddam was telling the truth and Chalabi was lying, beardedbruce? You're still buying Dubya's lie about weapons of mass destruction? It's the U.S. with the weapons of mass destuction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 May 04 - 11:18 AM Here's more posted to another thread but works here as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 11:21 AM Well, I did try, Bruce, but it diid not make much sense to me., A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 12:31 PM "beardedbruce - So why is it the U.S. didn't go it alone in Rwanda?" THAT is the question I was asking." Correction, beardedbruce. That is the question I was asking, and you still haven't answered it yet. I can imagine the reason, though..., as I'm sure you can, as well: 'Who needs the Rwandans?' Sort of like, 'Who needs the Kurds?', when Saddam was coming down heavy on them in his halcyon years, as to why we didn't invade him 'for killing his own people', then. Hypocrisy, I think the word is called, beardedbruce, and it normally swings the balance of whether or not we give a damn about other peoples' situations, if they have something worthwhile to offer us in return. The question should then have been: "What do the Rwandan's have to offer us?" C'est la vie in the big wide world, beardedbruce, and for the Bush Administration to say that they actually care about 'Saddam's own people' (like they're doing now for instance), is another little bit of the same pretzel logic at work. Like this, for instance: "...the number killed by all the WMD of Iraq's stockpile that may be used in the future." Why not add to that the number killed because some butterfly in China flapped it's wings? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 12:42 PM As I have said: Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan - PM Date: 19 May 04 - 08:13 PM Why didn't the US not do the Rwanda gig on their own, then? Jim ........ Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce - PM Date: 19 May 04 - 08:15 PM WE SHOULD HAVE! Why don't you ask that of the administration in power at the time? I would like to know the answer, as well. The anti-war folks in the US can take credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, but who gets the credit for 800,000 dead Rwandans? " |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM And my question was why the anti-war movement helped kill 2 million Cambodians: YOU have not answered that. Do I believe they intended to? NO. But they MUST bear the consequences of their actions, just as the US must bear the consequences of the attack on Iraq. I do not believe that the present administration intened was has happened- so you think they should not bear responsibility? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 01:05 PM But beardedbruce....., you haven't said anything. You said The US should have. You forgot to mention why they didn't. We have already put to bed the notion that the 'anti-war folks' can take the 'credit' for 2 million dead Cambodians. Are you sugessting that they can also take the 'credit' for 800,000 dead Rwandans? Did you lobby your Congressperson at the time, that he/she demands the US Administration to invade Rwanda? Because if you didn't, you could quite rightly claim a couple of Rwandan lives, for yourself. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 01:07 PM Any other dead people you would like us to take 'credit' for? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 01:11 PM Well, there are more than enough for everybody. I had agreed that your question was a good one ( about the US not going into Rwanda) YOU chose to make ME responsible for an answer, after I stated I wanted the same answer you did. "We have already put to bed the notion that the 'anti-war folks' can take the 'credit' for 2 million dead Cambodians. Are you sugessting that they can also take the 'credit' for 800,000 dead Rwandans?" Hardly- YOU have ignored it, and never answered. If you do not chose to accept my arguement, sobeit, but do not think because YOU say something that I HAVE to agree YOU are right. It does not work that way- you have to persuade me, as I would have to persuade you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 01:18 PM You were the one that claimed that the anti-war 'folks' were responsible for 2 000 000 dead Cambodians. Your 'argument' has to be proved for it to be accepted, I'm afraid. That's the way it works... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 01:33 PM But your arguements vice Iraq need only be stated to be accepted? Hardly fair. AGAIN: 1. The anti-war folks influenced the US to withdraw from SE Asia. 2. When we withdrew, the Pol Pot regieme was able to take over Cambodia. 3. The Pol Pot regieme killed off 2 million of their people. 4. THEREFORE, the antoi-war people bear some responsibility. Or will you say that the Bush Admin will have no responsibility for what happens in Iraq after we leave??? You can't have it both ways: Either you take the credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, and blame Bush for the dead Iraqis, or you cannot blame Bush for what happens after we leave. THAT is the way it works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 01:37 PM "Either you take the credit for 2 million dead Cambodians, and blame Bush for the dead Iraqis, or you cannot blame Bush for what happens after we leave" No, beardedbruce. That is you having it both ways. Your 'ergo' in point 4 is not proven. Prove it please Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 26 May 04 - 01:46 PM BB's item 4 is an example of the Post Hoc Fallacy |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 01:52 PM NO, Jim. YOU are the one trying to have it both ways. Your statement is ignoranty (lacking in knowledge) IF B is responsible for B, and B is responsible for C, THEN A is responsible for C. There are other contributing factors, I agree: But that does not make my arguement invalid. since simple logic seems beyound your limited comprehension: The Pol Pot regieme would not have been in power, had the US still been in SE Asia, or even had been percieved as willing to reenter. Because of the actions of the anti-war activists, the US withdrew unilaterally, and left the region in a state of political flux. I also believe that the British and French terms at the end of WWI contributed to causing WWII. SAME LOGIC HOW am I havbing it both ways? you would say that the anti-war movement bears no responsibility for the results of their actions, but the Bush administration does????????? Just because you do not want to believe something does not mean it is not true. READ what I have said. By YOUR logic, since Bush is Responsible for invading Iraq, and the invasion of Iraq is responsible for killing all those Iraqis, Bush IS NOT responsible for killing any Iraqis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 01:56 PM sorry: IF A is responsible for B, and B is responsible for C, THEN A is responsible for C. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 01:59 PM Definition: The name in Latin means "after this therefore because of this". This describes the fallacy. An author commits the fallacy when it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other. Examples: (i) Immigration to Alberta from Ontario increased. Soon after, the welfare rolls increased. Therefore, the increased immigration caused the increased welfare rolls. (ii) I took EZ-No-Cold, and two days later, my cold disappeared. Proof: Show that the correlation is coincidental by showing that: (i) the effect would have occurred even if the cause did not occur, or (ii) that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause. So, GUEST Tia, you claim that (i)the US would have withdrawn even without the anti-war protests? seems like they all wasted a lot of time and energy, then. Or is it (ii) Th US withdrew because of some other reason than the anti-war protest? Again, you are stating that the entire anti-war effort was pointless, and had no effect on what happened. I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 02:03 PM Bruce: Pol Pot, an enemy of the Soviet Union, also gained support from Thailand and the US. In particular, the US and the PRC vetoed the allocation of Cambodia's United Nations General Assembly seat to a representative of Heng Samrin's government. Influenced by realpolitik the US directly and indirectly supported Pol Pot, who espoused radically revised variant of Maoism adapted to Khmer nationalism. Envisaging a perfectly egalitarian agrarianism, the Khmer Rouge favoured a direct route to communism, thus bypassing the intermediate stage of socialism. Anti-modern and isolationist, Pol Pot was quite the opponent of Soviet orthodoxy. Because he was anti-Soviet, the United States, Thailand and People's Republic of China considered him preferable to the pro-Vietnamese government. Who is responsible for what, beardedbruce? And I see you have now lowered yourself to throwing insults, as regarding my 'ignoranty' and 'limited comprehension' And I haven't even read your poetry.... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:12 PM "Your statement is ignorant (lacking in knowledge)" How is this a personal insult? Your statement. IMO was: I have made no comment about you, or your other comments, or opinions. I stated there were other contributing factors: By your "logic", since there were other factors in the reason we went into Iraq besides Bush's wishes, he bears no responsibility. I will expect you tpo be consistant with this in the future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:14 PM and you do appear to comprehend what I am saying- The flaw MUSRT be in my explaination, although it seems reasonable to me. How am I supposed to explain simple logic to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 May 04 - 02:15 PM beardedbruce, you're always gonna save money on health care in your lifetime--you'll never have to pay a proctologist a cent.
Tia made no claims of any sort. You're putting your garbled words in her mouth. She posted a lucid description of how rhetoric works and the fallacy of your argument. A lot of thought has gone into how people construct arguments and we've been trying to point out the error in your so-called arguments--she didn't justapose any of the elements you are trying to cobble together to make your argument stick. She was showing you that by making these claims you're assuming that they are somehow sequentially related to each other, when in fact they are merely coincidental. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 02:21 PM "limited comprehension" could be construed as one, brucie baby. "By your "logic", since there were other factors in the reason we went into Iraq besides Bush's wishes, he bears no responsibility." That is not my logic at all, just you trying to put words in my mouth. The sole reason we went into Iraq was because of WMDs, and the Bush Administration's insistence that they were there. What about these 2 million dead Cambodians, then. What with tacit support from the US, would your logic allow you to tie those deaths somewhere on the same stick as Saddam's dead Kurds? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:21 PM SRS: "Tia made no claims of any sort. You're putting your garbled words in her mouth. She posted a lucid description of how rhetoric works and the fallacy of your argument. " She said "BB's item 4 is an example of the Post Hoc Fallacy " I quoted the definition of same. IF she claims my statement as being that fallacy, then the PROOF ststed in HER link applies: "Proof: Show that the correlation is coincidental by showing that: (i) the effect would have occurred even if the cause did not occur, or (ii) that the effect was caused by something other than the suggested cause." THUS, my statement: "So, GUEST Tia, you claim that (i)the US would have withdrawn even without the anti-war protests? seems like they all wasted a lot of time and energy, then. Or is it (ii) Th US withdrew because of some other reason than the anti-war protest? Again, you are stating that the entire anti-war effort was pointless, and had no effect on what happened." I fail to see where I have made a logical error.Or is there no requirement for her to "prove" what she believes, since you agree with it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 02:25 PM I suspect Guest Tia is actually a regular TIA and male... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 May 04 - 02:26 PM BB, your argument is so ass-backwards that no one in their right mind is going to bother to try to argue it with you or take the parts you consider "evidence" and rearrange them. And at this point, I wash my hands of trying to introduce you to the idea of critical thinking skills and logical discourse. You just don't have it in you. Next! SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:30 PM SRS, In other words, you concede that my logic is correct. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 26 May 04 - 02:34 PM Wow, never have I apparently said so much when saying so little. I'll try again. If event B occurs after event A, this does not necessarily imply that event A caused event B. To assert that coincidence does imply cause is to fall prey to the post hoc fallacy. Now, on another subject - this morning, after I brushed by teeth, I looked out the window, and my dog was chasing a duck down the creek. Amazing what can be accomplished with a toothbrush! |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 02:35 PM Wish we could call in an adult to smooth things out sometimes... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 02:40 PM "In other words, you concede that my logic is correct" Wrong again, beardedbruce. I think it means that your logic is incorrect As for Rwanda.... The US and the Genocide in Rwanda 1994 - Evidence of Inaction Happy reading.... there's a lot there Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:43 PM Guest Tia, PLEASE note what I said: IF A is responsible for B, and B is responsible for C, THEN A is responsible for C. Where is my post hoc fallacy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 02:47 PM Probably somewhere in the fact that the US administration supported Pol Pot, and probably overlooked his little indiscretions with his own people. Hardly anything to do with the 'anti-war folks' at all Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 02:47 PM Jim, You seem to miss the POINT. I think that the US SHOULD have interferred in Rwanda, and would like to know why we did not. The reduction to attacking me rather than my arguement is defacto recognition that the arguement is valid. Thank you for the url. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 02:48 PM Responsibility is not uniquely linear, for one thing. Real world events are not billiard balls. This means that although a syllogism such as you describe above seems correct on paper, it does not necessarily merit consideration in the real workings of the world. Example: Mother is responsible for James, who is six. James, who is six, is responsible for the death of Muffins, a cat. Therefore Mother killed Muffins. Holes big enough to drive a truck through -- for one thing, the word "responsible" has multiple meanings within the single syllogism. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 04 - 02:50 PM "We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds" - but the US was already supporting Saddam to the hilt at the time he did that. And within a few months after that it was stepping up assistance to his regime. ............................. Blaming opponents of the war for Pol Pot is rich. In effect it was the US government who were responsible for him coming to power - and it did its best to keep him in power too when the Vietnamese invaded to stop the killing, for which they were roundly punished by crippling sanctions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 02:55 PM "The reduction to attacking me rather than my arguement is defacto recognition that the arguement is valid" Which is exactly what you did to me, wasn't it? ("limited comprehension") Using the same logic, that is... Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 03:01 PM Amos: "This means that although a syllogism such as you describe above seems correct on paper, it does not necessarily merit consideration in the real workings of the world. Example: Mother is responsible for James, who is six. James, who is six, is responsible for the death of Muffins, a cat. Therefore Mother killed Muffins." I would claim that the mother bears some responsibility, for not being more careful about the actions allowed to James. "Responsibility is not uniquely linear, for one thing. Real world events are not billiard balls. This means that although a syllogism such as you describe above seems correct on paper, it does not necessarily merit consideration in the real workings of the world." "By YOUR logic, since Bush is Responsible for invading Iraq, and the invasion of Iraq is responsible for killing all those Iraqis, Bush IS NOT responsible for killing any Iraqis. " So you will get off Bush as being responsible for Iraq????????? Jim: My failure to show you the elements of logic is my fault: You lack of understanding is yours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 03:03 PM Thank you for validating my argument, bruce Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 03:11 PM McGrath of Harlow: "We SHOULD have gone in when he started to gas the Kurds" - but the US was already supporting Saddam to the hilt at the time he did that. And within a few months after that it was stepping up assistance to his regime. " I AGREE, and I think, IMO, that the US was WRONG. Where have I indicated otherwise???????????? But please blame the administration in power at the time, NOT ME, for this failure to act ............................. "Blaming opponents of the war for Pol Pot is rich. In effect it was the US government who were responsible for him coming to power - and it did its best to keep him in power too when the Vietnamese invaded to stop the killing, for which they were roundly punished by crippling sanctions. And I think the US was WRONG. But given the political climate in this country, due to the anti-war spirit at the time, the US COULD NOT have gone in to stop it, or done any intervention in the region. If we had stayed in SE asia, there would (probably) been no such mass slaughter. Or are you all arguing that , if the US had still been in SE Asia, we would have alloweed it? THAT might be a valid point. But please stop saying that my logic is invalid because you do not like the conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 03:15 PM Oh, sweet Jesus, you being simpleminded on purpose or is it genetic? Bush premeditatedly unleashed a large blunt weapon against the people of Iraq -- the leader in particular -- with malice aforethought. If you are going to try to parse the events of real life by some kind of logic, BB, you're gonna have to find some logic that cleaves to ground truth, not the logic of rhetoric. They are different grammars. Reality is not two-valued. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 03:18 PM "This means that although a syllogism such as you describe above seems correct on paper, it does not necessarily merit consideration in the real workings of the world. Example: Mother is responsible for James, who is six. James, who is six, is responsible for the death of Muffins, a cat. Therefore Mother killed Muffins." Further example, then: BY YOUR LOGIC Example: Bush is responsible for the US military. The US military is responsible for the death of Iraqis. YOU seem to claim that the statement that Bush killed Iraqis is FALSE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 03:25 PM "But given the political climate in this country, due to the anti-war spirit at the time, the US COULD NOT have gone in to stop it" The US could not have gone in and stopped it, beardedbruce, because they were supporting them "But please stop saying that my logic is invalid because you do not like the conclusion." Well, I'm not saying that. I (and I can only speak for myself) am saying that your logic is invalid...., because your logic is invalid, really. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: beardedbruce Date: 26 May 04 - 03:30 PM Then show how it is invalid. The statement "your logic is invalid" is not valid without some supporting statement. "The US could not have gone in and stopped it, beardedbruce, because they were supporting them" And WHY were we supporting him? Could our loss to the NV have had anything to do with it? Then you give further weight to my statements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Jim McCallan Date: 26 May 04 - 03:33 PM "And WHY were we supporting him?" You don't want me to accuse you of not being able to read, as well, do you? Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Amos Date: 26 May 04 - 03:36 PM To beat this argument any further is silly. Bush's contribution in activating the Army's role in Iraq was both necessary and sufficient, given the nature of military command channels. Not clear what your confusion is. But you're ending up in an odd sort of place. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 26 May 04 - 03:43 PM As an anti-war protestor, I apologize for having caused the deaths of 2,000,000 Cambodians. There. Now, what's our next topic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,lurker Date: 26 May 04 - 04:50 PM Can the responsibility be divided, or is it cumulative? Say, can 20,000 anti-war protestors take responsibility for the death of 100 Cambodians each? Or are they all responsible for 2,000,000 deaths, leading to a grand total of 40,000,000,000 Cambodians' deaths that they are responsible for? How logical... |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: dianavan Date: 27 May 04 - 01:18 AM correlation does not prove cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: GUEST,TIA Date: 27 May 04 - 07:32 AM dianavan - BB will want you to prove that wild statment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 May 04 - 11:30 AM "WHY were we supporting him? Could our loss to the NV have had anything to do with it?" Now that is a very interesting sort of logic. I wouldn't try it in court. "When Mr Brown was killing his family, Mr Jones tried to stop him doing it - and you attempted to prevent Mr Jones doing so. Why was that?" "Well Mr Jones had previously chased me off his premises, when I was attempting to steal his house, so I was angry with him. So it's all his fault." |
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Subject: RE: BS: It has been over 24 hrs. and..... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 May 04 - 01:22 PM It appears that Beardedbruce simply can't see why his approach to syllogism is not what passes for critical thinking. He's aiming at deductive reasoning but landing firmly on specious argument. |
