BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan

Subject: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 19 May 04 - 03:33 PM

There is ongoing genocide in Sudan. Arab Muslims are killing about 1,000 Black Muslims each week.

The world's response is to elect Sudan to the United Nations Human Rights Commission.

Nat Hentoff's latest column.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:35 PM

I heard about this horror ages ago, and have wondered if it will ever make it onto the Bush administration radar. Since they evidently don't have any oil, it probably won't catch Cheney's attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:47 PM

from the CIA world factbook:

In 1999 Sudan began exporting crude oil and in the last quarter of 1999 recorded its first trade surplus, which, along with monetary policy, has stabilized the exchange rate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:49 PM

and of course any Palestinians killed by Jews are far more important to talk about. Regardless of the number being killed. What does Al-Jezera have to say about this, if anyone knows?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:49 PM

So, go tell Louis Farrakhan about it.

Black Muslims are probably even bigger anit-semites than Arab Muslims.

Amongst the biggest purveyours of hate on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:59 PM

They still do not deserve to be killed just because of who they are.

But it is interesting that none of the people who complain about Israeli government actions say nothing about this.....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:03 PM

btw, Black Muslims in the US are a far different group than the Muslims who are black, in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:05 PM

Martin Gibson,

You are confused. The "Black Muslims" who are being genocidally murdered have nothing to do with Farrakhan's "Nation of Islam" movement in the USA.

Furthermore, Farrakhan's "Nation of Islam" represents only a small proportion of African American Muslims here. The best known African American Muslim is certainly Muhammad Ali, a man who is certainly not at all anti-Semitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:50 PM

"...But it is interesting that none of the people who complain about Israeli government actions say nothing about this"

Probably because it's a whole subject, on it's own

Aljazeera.com

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:57 PM

let me see....


Arab countries condemn Israel acts
Arab countries Condemned Israel killing of at least 10 Palestinian childrens and teenagers in Gaza Wednesday.


Seven Iraqis Killed in Karbala
U.S. occupation forces and followers of Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr clashed near one of Shi'ite Islam's holiest sites early on Wednesday, four Iraqis were killed and nine wounded.


Israeli occupation forces fire on crowd in Gaza
Israeli occupation forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing eight Palestinians.


Anti-U.S. march in Tehran
Thousands of Iranians have marched on the streets of Tehran Wednesday; protesting against U.S. and UK occupation of Iraq.


Soldier pleads guilty in Iraq abuse trial
Courts martial proceedings of U.S. soldiers charged with abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison started in Baghdad Wednesday.


Al-Qaeda claims Salim death
A group linked to al-Qaeda has said it carried out the attack which killed Iraqi Governing Council head Ezzedine Salim.


Nope...nothing about thousands being killed in Africa....



Wednesday, May 19, 2004: 09:45 GMTAl-Qaeda claims Salim death



MIDDLE EAST BUSINESS AND FOREX
• King Abdullah II: Political reforms should be done on a full stomach
• Arab business leaders: wide-ranging reform in the region is necessary



Middle East FOREX Markets per $USD

Euros 1.1896
Pound Sterling 1.7889
Bahraini Dinar 0.3770
Kuwati Dinar 0.2947
Qatari Riyal 3.6402
Saudi Riyal 3.7500
UAE Dirham 3.6728
Egyptian Pound 6.1800
Iraqi Dinar 1472.0
Irani Riyal 8557.0
Jordanian Dinar 0.7080
Lebanese £ 1514.0
Sudanese Dinar 259.80
Syrian Pound 44.2300



LATEST HEADLINE


40 Iraqis killed at a party
19/05/2004 23:12:00
At least 4o civilians were killed Wednesday when a U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party in an Iraqi village near the Syrian border.





MIDDLE EAST NEWS
More News...

Arab countries condemn Israel acts
Arab countries Condemned Israel killing of at least 10 Palestinian childrens and teenagers in Gaza Wednesday.


Seven Iraqis Killed in Karbala
U.S. occupation forces and followers of Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr clashed near one of Shi'ite Islam's holiest sites early on Wednesday, four Iraqis were killed and nine wounded.


Israeli occupation forces fire on crowd in Gaza
Israeli occupation forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing eight Palestinians.


Anti-U.S. march in Tehran
Thousands of Iranians have marched on the streets of Tehran Wednesday; protesting against U.S. and UK occupation of Iraq.


Soldier pleads guilty in Iraq abuse trial
Courts martial proceedings of U.S. soldiers charged with abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison started in Baghdad Wednesday.


Al-Qaeda claims Salim death
A group linked to al-Qaeda has said it carried out the attack which killed Iraqi Governing Council head Ezzedine Salim.




   
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Host: Dr.Kareem

"Why are Iraqis turning down freedom" and "We do not have freedom in US?"

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"Are Soldiers & Militants Human?"

Is there a good accurate Literal translation of the Koran into English available and where can it be obtained from?

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Conflict in Chechnya - More information about this war?





CONSPIRACY THEORIES
Whats behind todays world events?

U.S. prepares for June 30 handover of power. So why is it considering moving forces in S.Korea to Iraq?!
Recently Paul Bremer, the supreme administrator of the U.S. military government in Iraq, and Colin Powell, the U.S. Secretary of State, announced the 30 June hand over of power to an Iraqi interim government.


Similar abuses at Guantánamo!! Is it the U.S. technique in interrogations?
Amid the scandal of abusing Iraqi civilians at Abu Ghraib prison, we hear of similar abuses at Guantánamo Bay.


The Mossad behind failed attempt to assassinate Hamas new leader Khaled Meshaal?
Syrian security forces have arrested a cell of five Yemeni Jews commissioned by the Israeli Intelligence, Mossad, to murder the new Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal.


Saudi oil props up the U.S. dollar globally?
Saudi Arabia has agreed with the U.S. to sell all oil in dollars, also it has ensured that the dollar is the operating currency for all of OPEC. How far does this strengthen the U.S. position in the world?


Thomas Hamill released as part of Fallujah deal or did he really Escape?
Was American hostage Thomas Hamill freed as part of a secret Fallujah deal in which Iraqi's took over the city and Hamill released in exchange.




nope, nothing here, either. I guess that they do not consider it worth talking about....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:03 PM

Put SUDAN in the search box, Bruce.

... normally helps...

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:06 PM

I went to the front page of their site- If THEY do not consider it important enough, why should I look in the classifieds??????

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:08 PM

World News
US officials discuss peace, humanitarian relief in Sudan
KHARTOUM (AFP) - Two visiting senior US officials met with senior members of the Khartoum government for talks on efforts to secure peace and ensure humanitarian assistance in Sudan, government sources said.
Sudanese children march for peace.
KHARTOUM, Sudan - Hundreds of Sudanese schoolchildren have marched to the presidential palace in the capital Khartoum to demand an end to the 21-year civil war.
Annan warns of Rwandan-style genocide in Sudan
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan warned Wednesday a Rwandan-style genocide may be repeated in Sudan and said international military force could be needed.

more results >>


Middle East News Brief
Sudanese freed from US Guantanamo base.
KHARTOUM - Two Sudanese nationals have been freed from the US Navy base at Guantanamo and negotiations were underway for the release of the remaining ten Sudanese detainees, Foreign Minister Mustafa Ismail said.

Sudan peace talks resume in Kenya, under pressure to reach deal.
NAIROBI - The Khartoum government and Sudan's main rebel group resumed peace talks in Kenya aimed at ending 21 years of devastating civil war.

Sudan's Islamist party HQ closed
Sudanese authorities reported that they have shut down the headquarters of the party of the main opposition Islamist leader Hassan al-Turabi.

Sudan in truce with Darfur foes
The Sudanese government and two rebel groups from the western Darfur region have signed a ceasefire in an effort to end the conflict in the area.

Truce extends in Sudan as talks continue
Sudan's government and main southern rebels signed a one-month truce extension.

Sudan accepts U.S. aid
Sudan has accepted to allow American aid experts to enter western Darfur region.


Hmmm... not quite the emotional tone they use with Israel, is it?????

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:10 PM

Why shouldn't you?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:20 PM

... posting on top of each other again :-)

I don't know what you were expecting, Bruce.

Does this placate you, at all?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:34 PM

link was to "Hezbollah Condemns 'Un-Islamic' Berg's Beheading"

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:53 PM

I know.

It's just that you seem to believe that Muslims are not concerned with the behaviour of those that fight 'in their name'.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:59 PM

"Hezbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the resistance group said in a statement Wednesday, May 12.

Hezbollah, which the United States blacklists as "terrorist", said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqis by U.S.-led occupation soldiers.

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees," read the statement carried by Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:06 AM

Sudan does have oil, and it's a big source of the problems they have there. I already posted documentation of this in another thread about Sudan a while back, and I don't have time to search for it now. But it probably can be found by putting Sudan in the filter box and resetting it to more than three months.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:08 AM

Ah, what the hell...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=68040&messages=10#top

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:21 AM

Then the oil must be out of reach of the Bush folks. Because that is the issue that gets their attention above all else.

From two previously linked articles:

He said more than one million people were being affected by ethnic cleansing. He said the fighting was characterised by a scorched-earth policy and was comparable in character, if not in scale, to the 1994 Rwandan genocide. "It is more than just a conflict. It is an organised attempt to do away with a group of people," he said.

Arab militias, backed by the government, have driven hundreds of thousands from their homes, in retaliation for a rebellion launched a year ago by two armed groups.

They accused the Arab-dominated government of ignoring the black African inhabitants of Darfur. More than 100,000 people have fled across the border into Chad, but have continued to face cross-border raids.

Then there's this:

Pro-government militias

For generations, the two Darfuri communities - African farmers and Arab nomads - have been rivals for the scant resources, the water and pasture, of western Sudan's harsh landscape. But the conflict resolution think-tank, the International Crisis Group, says a decisive factor in this war has been the help given to the pro-government militia. A recent report concluded: "These 'Janjaweed' militias have over the past year received greatly increased government support to clear civilians from areas considered disloyal." The Khartoum government flatly denies this charge.

The 'Janjaweed' militia are accused of ethnic cleansing

A senior government official in south Darfur is Ahmed Ngabo Ahmed. Asked whether the government has armed the militia, he emphatically says: "Never, never." The humanitarian consequences of this war have been catastrophic. The United Nations has described the situation in Darfur as a crisis of "enormous proportions". The survival of the hundreds of thousands of displaced is on a knife-edge.

Under intense pressure from the international community, the Sudanese government has reluctantly agreed to allow the delivery of international aid. But humanitarian workers are gloomy about the future. They talk privately of bureaucracy obstructing the delivery of help. The rains are also due to arrive shortly, and with them, the increased threat of disease and hunger.

Those doing the attacking are Arab. They are probably also Moslem, though the two are not necessarily mutually inclusive. The Black Africans are probably not the same kind of Moslem, and they probably aren't all Moslems (just like all christians don't really practice the same religion). What they aren't is Arab. They are called "tribal" Africans, and it is typical for tribal peoples (in the U.S. as well as other colonized nations) to blend allochthonous (formed somewhere else) religions with autochthonous (formed locally, on the land) religions and come up with something that is not longer exactly either one. Must piss off the fundamentalist Moslems, just like in the New World it pisses off the fundamentalist Christians.

"Politics" is probably an oversimplified answer.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:39 AM

The Committee on Conscience Genocide warning page:

"A new factor worsens the threat of genocide: oil. In late 1999, the Sudanese government began earning hundreds of millions of dollars from oil exports, made possible in part by Western oil companies like Talisman Energy. This hard currency gives the government both greater means and greater motive to accelerate its assault on disfavored groups.   

Greater means, because the oil revenues finance the purchase of new weapons. As one Sudanese cabinet minister said, "What prevents us from fighting while we possess the oil that supports us in this battle even if it lasts for a century?"

Greater motive, because the government can tap the country's estimated reserves of some 8 billion barrels only if it cleanses ethnic groups like the Dinka and Nuer from the land under which it sits. The need to secure oil fields has fueled a vicious scorched earth campaign, laying waste to a broad swath of territory. Amnesty International has documented what it calls "the human price of oil" in Sudan: "a pattern of extrajudicial and indiscriminate killings, torture and rape - committed against people not taking active part in the hostilities."

There is more to come: the government does not yet control the richest oil deposits. According to the Washington Post, "the government is bent on ethnic cleansing of territory surrounding other, as yet unexploited, oil fields.""

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:03 AM

http://www.sudan.net/news/press/postedr/198.shtml

"With mixed feelings, KAIROS has received the news of Talisman Energy's intention to sell its assets in Sudan, a country where oil development is virtually synonymous with civil war and gross violations of human rights, and where foreign companies like Talisman are clearly profiting from armed conflict.

While some of Talisman's shareholders are breathing a sigh of relief, KAIROS' church-based and socially responsible investors, together with human rights organizations that have focused their energies on extractive companies operating in conflict zones, remain deeply concerned for the people of Southern Sudan. These beleaguered people bear the scars of a war in which oil development has played a critical role. The change in Sudan's oil operating partnership will bring no foreseeable relief.

Talisman's Sudan venture has been a continual target of scrutiny and protest since investing there in 1998. But the company has blatantly walked away from its responsibilities in Sudan. Had Talisman listened to church nd other shareholders, and properly incorporated a human rights framework into its business plan, it might have played a constructive role in transforming oil development into a force for peace rather than the instrument of death it has become.

KAIROS and its Sudanese church partners have always maintained that oil development could have been of great benefit to Sudan, if the company adopted international human rights standards, an independent human rights monitoring and reporting process, and provided assurances that the role of oil production was not exacerbating the conflict. The company sidestepped these demands and remained obdurate to the end, refusing to take any real responsibility for the human rights abuses associated with oil operations.

Actions taken by the company to emphasize professed social and human rights commitments obfuscated the larger context. Reports published in 2001 and 2002, to demonstrate compliance with the International Code of Ethics for Canadian Business, obscured the ugly truth of human rights atrocities occurring in the oil fields.

Talisman often claimed that another oil company would be less inclined to respect human rights in Sudan. But it is difficult to imagine abuses more serious than those already being committed by Sudanese government forces in concessions licensed to Talisman. According to reports issued by independent human rights experts, violations included attacks on civilians by helicopter gunships re-fueled and re-armed on airstrips on Talisman's concessions, and the forced displacement and killing of people in concession areas under exploration."

Google search- Oil Human Rights

Check out all of the other countries listed besides Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:48 AM

Stilly River Sage, 19 May 04 - 04:35 PM

"I heard about this horror ages ago, and have wondered if it will ever make it onto the Bush administration radar. Since they evidently don't have any oil, it probably won't catch Cheney's attention."

So it has been established that this region of the Sudan does have oil. What, no outcry about Arab Muslim militias, aided and abetted by the Sudanese Government (logistical support and provision of air support), going in and grabbing it at the expense of the indigenous population? No, of course not, that sort of condemnation is strictly reserved for the current US Administration.

But not to worry SRS, all will be well, the matter is under consideration by Kofi Anan and the United Nations, fully armed with all "their lessons learned" from Rwanda. And that is how it should be, isn't it? Isn't that what we've been hearing on this forum for the last eighteen months - two years, about how such problems and conflicts should be handled solely by the UN? What has been the response from that august body - The United Nations? According to the article linked to by Guest C-Watch:

On the 4th May, the United Nations have elected Sudan, the primary source of this current genocide, a country that massacres its own African citizens, to serve a three-year term on the U.N. Human Rights Commission.

Abso-bloody-lutely terrific, epic in fact, says all that needs to be said about the United Nations. The three year term should be just about long enough for them to discuss, delay and prevaricate, until the situation is as they want it, then in 2014, Kofi can dust off the recent speach he made down in Rwanda, do a little cut-and-paste exercise and once again waffle on about the need for harmony and reconciliation, and about how the international community should learn from their mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:11 PM

Guest, your thinking is so helter-skelter it isn't worth responding to. Read to the end of the thread before you turn on the vitreol.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:11 PM

Helter-skelter thinking SRS - don't make me laugh

You've been pounding away for months now about GWB and the current administration out for all it can get based on other peoples oil. BUT when actually confronted face to face with a situatuation that is precisely that - what do come out with - "politics" - Effin right it's an over simplified answer - and bloody hypocritical on your part.

Your concluding two paragraphs are typical weasel statements of the left justifying non-action.

CarolC blames it all on Talisman, a Canadian Company, oil found in 1983 - when did Talisman get involved - way after the civil war in that part of the world kicked-off - but don't let fact get in the way CarolC, it's all Talisman's fault remember. Complete and utter Bollocks, as usual.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:36 PM

I don't justify non-action, Guest. I'm appalled by it. Do you assume that attempting to understand the nature of the problem in the Sudan insead of, pardon the cliche, seeing it only in black and white, constitutes ignoring it or apologizing for it? You're cracked. Why do you think Dubya's war has gone so terribly wrong in Iraq? Because he and his pals didn't understand a thing about what they were doing. And they apparently don't care to begin to even take a look at the Sudan, let alone understand the conflict.

This is the kind of thing Bush should have paid attention to regarding Iraq:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May2004/El-Amine0518.htm

The Shia Rise Up
by Rami El-Amine
www.dissidentvoice.org
May 18, 2004
First Published in Left Turn


"What is striking is how much has changed in a week ­ a week. No one can talk about the Sunni Triangle anymore. No one can seriously talk about Sunni-Shia fragmentation or civil war. The occupation cannot talk about small bands of resistance. Now it is a popular rebellion and it has spread."

-- Wamid Nadhmi, a political science professor at Baghdad University

It's still too early to assess the impact of the April Iraqi uprising against the US occupation but one thing is for sure, things will never be the same again in Babylon. The tenacious resistance that the mostly Sunni fighters put up in Fallujah — more than 600 Iraqis (mostly women and children) and around 60 US soldiers were killed in the first week alone — rightly became the rallying cry of the rebellion. But Fallujah has been bearing the brunt of the occupation from day one.

What was different about this uprising was that large numbers of Shia rose up against the occupation forces. Suddenly the US and its allies were no longer just facing small pockets of armed resistance, concentrated mostly in the "Sunni triangle" northwest of Baghdad, but a major rebellion that killed more than 83 US soldiers in the first two weeks and took control of a number of major cities. US-trained Iraqi police units not only refused to put down the rebellion but in some places joined it. A battalion of Iraqi Civil Defense Forces refused to go to Fallujah "to fight Iraqis."

Go online for the rest of it.

It's long, Guest, so take your time reading it. Then consider what such a stupid mess Bush can make in the Sudan if he doesn't understand the issues. The U.S. always can wield influence in disasters like this, but I don't want to leave it to Bush to go for the knee-jerk reaction of choosing sides instead of looking at it globally. My remark about oil was right on. If there wasn't oil, Bush and Cheney wouldn't care. If there's oil but corrupt individuals in the Sudan have it all sewed up, then Bush doesn't care. Why do you think the U.S. has such poor relations with Mexico, all things considered? It's because there is enough corruption in Mexico to absorb all of the oil money there and the U.S. can't get it's hands on it. If things were different, they'd be our best pals. It has been that way for a long time, through many administrations. This one is just good at making bad situations a lot worse very quickly.

I don't expect you to "get it," Guest. You're too busy finding ways to misread people's words and intentions.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:54 PM

GUEST20, May 04 - 01:11 PM, where did I say it's entirely the fault of Talisman?

And where was Mr. Hentoff's (and your) righteous indignation prior to now? This is an old conflict. Why is he only just now getting all puffed up about it? Is it because he has an agenda that has nothing whatever to do with human rights? Like, for instance, trying to get rid of the UN altogether?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:15 PM

SRS, your diversion is not going to work.

The subject is the Sudan and what is going on there - what are your recommended solutions? As I stated previously, it is currently in the hands of the UN, who have elected Sudan to the U.N. Human Rights Commission. Does that give you any confidence in their ability, or willingness to deal with this situation?

On Iraq, and how things are percieved as going, yes the US do seem to doing everything in their power to make a complete and utter balls of it.

A tale of Two Cities - Fallujah and Karbala

There is no great unification of Sunni and Shia against the Coalition Forces at present - but there might be.

In Fallujah the US had a golden opportunity and blew it. They sealed off the city and made demands, threatening action if their demands were not met. The demands were not met..... What did the US do..... Nothing. In Fallujah they were up against Sunni loyalists and foreign fighters. There would have been few tears shed in Iraq if they had flattened the place, even the Sunni's elsewhere in Iraq would have at least understood it, after all, that is the treatment the rest of Iraq has been receiving at their hands for the past 30 years.

In Karbala and Najaf, having been humiliated up in Fallujah, they decide to take a tough line on the Shia followers of Moqtada Al-Sadr, now holed up in a town containing the holiest of Shia shrines, if they decide to "do the business" here they run the risk of setting the whole country alight, and few others besides. Brilliant strategy

Sisstani is totally against Moqtada Al-Sadr and in the South in Maysan the UK forces are taking vigorous action against Al-Sadr's militia, but down there Al-Sadr's men are in a minority and not all that well supported by the local population. If the US a bit further up country however go in with guns blazing and start demolishing Shia Holy Sites, then all that could change, and change quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:27 PM

To be fair CarolC, you didn't say it was all Talisman's fault. You just quoted great chunks of an article that implied that, and also gave us a link on Oil and Human Rights that included the Sudan and other places round the world. But the views expressed in the article do not, in any way, reflect your own - Right?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:04 PM

"To be fair" says Guest. This guest hasn't a critical thinking skill to his name, can only shake his finger at people, can't follow a train of thought through complex illustrations, and then spends 2/3 of a post describing exactly what he said "wasn't" the topic of the thread. Give me a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:21 PM

But the views expressed in the article do not, in any way, reflect your own - Right?

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Guest. I hardly think that Talisman is entirely responsible. But I do think that it is responsible for a lot, and it is also a good example of a kind of situation that is altogether too common in the world today, involving many different corporate and governmental players.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:59 PM

Louis Farakhan should move to Sudan and become president there.

why not have the Nation of Islam there?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:01 PM

Gee, it seems like a few thousand people a week killed is not enough to keep the interest of the folks here... since they can't blame G. Bush. But the ones about the evil US actions seem to be going strong. Anyone care to give me a reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 06:30 PM

I suspect a main reason for the difference is that it is unlikely that there is anyone reading the threads at the Mudcat who would defend what appears to be happening in Darfur.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

Why should they give you a reason, beardedbruce? Is anyone here on Mudcat accountable to you? Are you going to decide if their reasons for not contributing to this thread are good enough, and will you write a pome about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jun 04 - 09:38 PM

They're rioting in Africa, they're starving in Spain,
There's hurricanes in Florida and Texas needs rain...
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls,
The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
Italians hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch,
AND I DONT LIKE ANYBODY VERY MUCH..

The more things change the more they stay the same.And, if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 05:01 AM

True, Kendall.

How is your voice?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 05:15 AM

Have you never asked yourselves why the news about this 'genocide' reach us right now when the US government is in difficulties due to their lies leading to the occupation of Iraq and its oil wells? And why is it that the victims are portrayed as Christians and the perpetrators as Muslims? Don't you see how easy it is to falsify these reports or, in the case of real brutalities to instigate people to violence. Has not the CIA done this on many documented occasions?

Of course, there is oil in Sudan, and, in addition to that, Sudan is situated strategically in a position to control much of the oil transport. Since the Muslims in Sudan have seen this connection they are portrayed as brutal murderers in order to prepare an occupation of Iraq. The Neocons hope that the real truth never comes to the light for the events are in a far away country. But if you ask yourselves Cui bono (who profits) you'll see easily who is lying here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 06:14 AM

Wolfgang:

The victims are also Muslim, just black rather than Arab.

It has been going on for a while- I have no idea why the press finally decided to even notice it. There are still NO headlines or major stories about it here in the US.

What lies are you talking about? Even Al-Jezera admits it is happenimng, they are just not making the kind of fuss they would over the US or Israel doing something.

I do not see any Neocon efforts here, at all. Just another massecre of innocent people that is ignored because liberals can't blame the econservatives for it.

And if the Iraq war was one of "blood for oil", why are oil price up, and production down? One would think that if we attacked to get the oil we might have been able to get some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 06:59 AM

Wolfgang - 03 Jun 04 - 05:15 AM

The timing of the story had a great deal to do with a western journalist going into the area, against the wishes of the Sudanese government and bringing out visual evidence of what is going on, and has been going on for decades. It has been known about but lacked any evidence that could be "shown" to the world.

As to why the victims are portrayed as Christians has got something to do with the sites sounding the most strident warnings are Christian Missionary sites - Not the CIA, Wolfgang.

By all means asks who profits, pray tell us.

In Iraq - the duly elected government and people of that country, much more so than they ever profitted under the regime of Saddam Hussein.

In Sudan - the Sudanese government and the people of that country to the extent that the Sudanese government wants them to.

Or are you trying to say that oil, gas, whatever natural resource is found, then exploited by Neocon multi-national companies, who dive in extract what they want and run off with the profits leaving the land they entered impoverished? Utter rubbish. In very few places on this planet do Oil Companies OWN the oil they extract - the national governments of the countries they operate in OWN the oil. The oil company extracts it under licence, a licence that can be revoked at any time. The Oil Company extracts the oil, transports, refines and sells it. The Government of the country gets paid in royalties and in tax revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 08:23 AM

Beardedbruce and Teribus, you two were not the readers I had in mind when posting. Teribus, you have read the 'Who killed Nick Berg' thread. That may give you an idea what was in my mind when posting here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 03 Jun 04 - 01:55 PM

I saw a nice segment about this on Bill O'reilly last night. Had congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, and another black activist from an "anti slavery" organization.

In general we all agree that genocide is going on and no one is paying any attention to it, or doing anything about it.   A question came up about Kofi Annan and the UN.   Why is he not doing anything about it.   This is the third genocide on his watch, and he has done nothing.   (the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons of this world have also been silent on this issue)

For those of you who say we should have gone to the UN to handle Iraq, or got a UN coalition- it doesn't look like the UN has a very good track record on this issue. I guess I will have to cancel my vacation plans to the Sudan this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:13 PM

refresh-

And can someone tell me the Kerry take on the Sudan? Serious question- I would like to know, now that the present administration has (finally) stated that it is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:29 AM

From Sunday's Washington Post:

"the admnistration will continue to press other countries to press the United Nations to press Sudan's government. The uncertainty of this strataegy was immediately apparent after Mr Powell spoke. Brushing aside the evidence, France and Germany declined to call the killings genocide. ... China, the leading foreign investor in Sudan's burgeoning oil fields, said it might veto a tough Security Council resolution."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:21 PM

and no one here cares....


I guess a few Iraqis are of more value than thousands of Sudanese.....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:40 PM

beardedbruce, you seem to equate verbal spewing with caring. They're really not the same thing at all. Try to learn the distinction, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:23 AM

Carol C.--trying to reason with a fully-programmed robot [there are MILLIONS of them, it seems] of the out-of-sight right of the neo-con nest around the White House is a complete waste of time and effort. They MUST suppress the news of the terrible atrocities being committed in Iraq. They know full well that the re-election of their cretinous "chief" depends on it. At least, I would fervently hope that, given the truth about what is happening, that the Am,erican people have the moral stature to dump the acquisitive, lying crew which is ruining not only Iraq, right now, but America itself. It is surely getting through to the American people that the vast majority of the global populace see the US foreign policy as very, very wrong.
I trust not too many are affected by the weasel words "My Country, right or wrong..."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:25 AM

From the Sudan Tribune:

"Obviously the oil companies are deeply complicit. Attacks by Janjaweed, often with aerial support from Sudan government forces, have cleared the way for pipelines and drilling. Oil company roads and bridges are used by government troops to carry the genocide into more remote communities in Darfur. And it is an unhappy fact of recent history that violence, disorder, and corruption generally accompany the exploitation of oil in undeveloped nations. Oil revenues do not translate into schools and hospitals for the people; they translate into arms and Swiss bank accounts for the elite. Sudan, the largest country in Africa, and one of the poorest, is a case in point"

In this recent article, it states that Britain and other countries are busy signing contracts for Sudan's oil while the genocide is continuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:50 AM

Ain't too many clean hands when it comes to genocide in the Sudan.

Read this, SVP.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 01:54 AM

And then of course the man whose only failing--according to many--was getting his tweeters blown in the Oval Office (followed with a few things about a wannabe President):

What a crew, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:27 AM

Look at what we've won with a sabre and a gun . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:34 AM

Silent night, holy night, all is calm . . . .

And the oil companies say we can look forward to ten more years of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:16 AM

Britain and other countries
Let me add that the 'other countries' mentioned in this particular context are: China, India, Japan

Who wants to read all of the aricle from which Dianavan has quoted can read it for instance here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

Let me add that the 'other countries' mentioned in this particular context are: China, India, Japan

And the US and France, according to the link in Brucie's 25 Jul 05 - 01:50 AM post...

"American companies are not far behind. Marathon Oil, based in Houston, TX, is a partner in the French Total Corp., which holds oil leases in a southern area marked by fierce fighting throughout the war. The Associated Press reported recently that Marathon, a major contributor to the Bush re-election campaign, has resumed payments to the Khartoum government and will be part of Total's operations in the oil fields."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 05:02 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/08/04/sudan.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:17 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/08/24/sudan.unhcr.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:33 PM

It's nice to see they're concerned about getting people returned to their land.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/09/27/sudan.darfur.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:42 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/12/16/darfur.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:01 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060320/ap_on_go_ot/us_nato

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:41 AM

Thanks for keeping this thread up to date, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Kweku
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 06:06 AM

the Darfur region in the western region of Sudan has enough oil to feed the entire population of Sudan. the Arabs want it for themselvs and the Black Africans say NO. China says it is no genocide over there because they are the only ones doing explorations and drilling over there and the whole world thinks it is no problem for Arabs to massacre Africans. because everybody is always exploiting Africans so what is the big deal.

But one thing i always say,"the whole world would never know happiness and will never ever enjoy their wealth until Africa is accorded its respect and right". lets wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 11:16 AM

Bravo, Quarcoo.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Brass Monkey
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 12:45 PM

Is it worth mentioning that it is a sackable offence in the Gulf region to say that the Darfur situation even exists?
I've just been sacked for asking what a sticker written in arabic meant on my office door!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:02 AM

"The top United Nations political official has invited the Sudan's Foreign Minister to the world body's New York Headquarters to hold discussions on transitioning from an African Union (AU) force in the country's troubled Darfur region to a UN peacekeeping operation there."

from


http://allafrica.com/img/static/aa-trans_200x116.gif

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Kweku
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:32 AM

the Arabs are never going to allow the UN into the Sudan,its all talk to assure the tax payer that the UN is living up to its goals.

everyone knows Kofi Annan is as soft as a tissue.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 04:25 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/27/darfur.clooney/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

"GENEVA, Switzerland (Reuters) -- The United Nations said on Friday it would cut food rations for more than 6 million people in Sudan, half of them in Darfur, because of a severe lack of funds.

Many donor countries appear to have tired of the long-term conflict in Darfur, despite signs that malnutrition is again on the rise among people living in squalid camps, the United Nations' World Food Program (WFP) said.

WFP said it was halving food aid from the minimum daily requirement of 2,100 calories to 1,050 calories as of May.

....

The United States was the largest donor at $188 million, it said, while Italy was the only major European country to contribute so far ($1.2 million)."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/04/28/sudan.aid.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM

Here, here!


http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/28/darfur.protest/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM

oh, btw...

"The EU is the Palestinians' largest donor, giving more than $600 million a year in aid. Without it, the Palestinian Authority has been unable to pay public workers."



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2630&ncid=2630&e=3&u=/ap/20060428/ap_on_re_eu/france_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 06 - 01:55 AM

Ah but, BB, the aid to Sudan has not dried up completely. The Iranians have offered share their recently acquired nuclear skills and technology with the Government in Khartoum.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 01 May 06 - 12:16 PM

Difficult new developments...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060501/ts_nm/sudan_darfur_dc_27


BTW, here are some of the "Arab" Janjaweed (Janjaweed means "men on horseback").

They're all ethnically "Black". The Janjaweed along with the Rebels. And most of them are Muslims, too (on both sides). I suspect that the main difference between the two "ethnicities" is the language spoken by the different groups, and lifestyle (nomadic herders versus settled farmers)

http://www.warnews.it/index.php?option=com_akogallery&Itemid=52&func=detail&id=83

http://dehai.org/archives/dehai_news_archive/mar05/att-0035/01-ArticleInclude.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/youcreatedcosmos/Sudan_Janjaweed_militia.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 May 06 - 09:27 AM

Sudanese Arabs come in many shapes, sizes and colours.

The Janjaweed are considered (by themselves and others) to be Arabs, hence their cultural and ethnic links to the government in Khartoum and the resulting support given to them by that government.

You are correct about the herders/farmers dichotomy, the linguistic differences and the fact that both sides are predominantly (Sunni) Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 02 May 06 - 12:50 PM

Yes, I agree. But the "Arab" versus "Ethnically Black" dichotomy that many people are trying to use to specify the differences between the two groups is a false dichotomy, since both groups are ethnically Black. The term "Arab" in this context most probably refers to language, and that is probably what makes the "Arabs" and "non-Arabs" in this context different ethnicities. But it's definitely not a conflict between "Blacks" and "non-Blacks".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 06 - 01:49 PM

"Ethnically black" is not a helpful expression. Australian aborigines would be "ethnically black" but are completely distinct from subSahara African blacks. Skin colour is only one and not the best indicator of ethnic (racial) differences.

from the Wikipedia article about Darfur:

The main ethnic groups are the Fur (after whom the region is named), speaking a Nilo-Saharan language, and the Arab Baggara. Others include the non-Arab Zaghawa, Masalit, and Midob….Relations between Arab and non-Arab inhabitants have been tense during much of Darfur's history.

Or, from Carol’s link: Khartoum used militias, known locally as Janjaweed and drawn from Arab tribes, to crush the rebellion.

While the conflict has a political basis, it has also acquired an ethnic dimension in which civilians were deliberately targeted on the basis of their ethnicity (Wikipedia)

Kofi Annan too has spoken of “ethnic cleansing” as well as Human Rights Watch has.

A UN observer team did report: The 23 Fur villages in the Shattaya Administrative Unit have been completely depopulated, looted and burnt to the ground (the team observed several such sites driving through the area for two days). Meanwhile, dotted alongside these charred locations are unharmed, populated and functioning Arab settlements. In some locations, the distance between a destroyed Fur village and an Arab village is less than 500 meters. (UN Interagency Report cited below, 25 April 2004)

Language and style of living may contribute but the killing is ethnically discriminate. Mostly, Non-Arabs kill Arabs and vice versa. The differential way the weapons are available to both groups it happens that most killers are Arabs and most killed are Non-Arabs.


Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 02 May 06 - 02:25 PM

I don't disagree that "ethnicity" is a big part of what is going on. But the point I am trying to make is that terms like "Arab" and "Black" in this particular case are very misleading. Especially here in the US where such terms are very emotionally charged and have a lot of history (and a certain amount of baggage) associated with them.

This conflict cannot be boiled down to simple terms like "ethnic Black" and "Arab". It's far too complicated for that, and such over-simplifications don't help solve any of the problems. They just encourage an knee-jerk emotional response not based on any real understanding of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 06 - 02:55 PM

Janjaweed means "men on horseback" (Carol)

No. Jaweed alone means 'rider'. 'Jan' adds the weapon to the peaceful picture, so 'Janjaweed' means verbatim armed rider which makes more sense than just 'rider'. Your omission is interesting, Carol.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 06 - 04:01 PM

Given that the Fur have been subject to ethnic cleansing (or perhaps some would prefer to call it "displacement") and the Arabs have not, I would suggest that ethnicity is an important part of the equation. I'm sure the Fur would think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 May 06 - 04:05 PM

Sorry, that's me above. I forgot to sign in!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 May 06 - 04:39 PM

Carol,

I have clicked on your three links with pictures. For two of those links there is no way to tell whether the people portrayed are Janjaweed or not. But the third (first) photo comes with a text. Did you read it, Carol? I did and I laughed about this part:

Un mio conoscente, un ufficiale dell'esercito sudanese, mi ha assicurato al 100% che l'uomo nella foto non e' un Janjaweed ma un abitante del luogo. I Janjaweed sono chiari di carnagione: sono arabi, non africani!

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 May 06 - 04:58 PM

Molto interessante, Wolfgang. Ben' trovato. Ho visto la fotografia ma non ho letto il testo.

(Very interesting, Wolfgang. Well spotted. I saw the photo but I didn't read the text)

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:16 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/02/darfur.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 08:31 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/sudan

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:13 PM

O great!

Haven't we heard this before?

Until now, the U.S. has been content to sit back and allow the atrocities because the Sudanese govt. was co-operating with the U.S. led War on Terror.

...and now its as if bin laden is openly challenging Bush to invade Sudan.

Funny how that coincided with the marches.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:23 PM

"Until now, the U.S. has been content to sit back and allow the atrocities because the Sudanese govt. was co-operating with the U.S. led War on Terror. "


Or you could look at the facts, instead of going into Bush-bashing mode. I not your chosen Canada has done even less.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:29 AM

From Sunday's Washington Post:

"the admnistration will continue to press other countries to press the United Nations to press Sudan's government. The uncertainty of this strataegy was immediately apparent after Mr Powell spoke. Brushing aside the evidence, France and Germany declined to call the killings genocide. ... China, the leading foreign investor in Sudan's burgeoning oil fields, said it might veto a tough Security Council resolution."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:37 PM

http://story.torontotelegraph.com/p.x/ct/9/id/fa91f3ed4c5fd51f/cid/71df8d33cd2a30df/

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:39 PM

Regrettably, Canada's current policy on the genocide in Darfur seems like history repeating itself. As many as 15,000 civilians are dying each month in Sudan. The United Nations estimates that 12,000 troops are needed to turn the tide - a fivefold increase from the approximately 2,400 that are currently in the region.

While it is true that Canada's skilled troops would be capable of providing support to the African Union well beyond their actual numbers, the commitment of up to 100 troops cannot be viewed as anything more than a symbolic gesture.

By offering such a small force, with little information about plans to send additional troops in the future and only a vague long-term commitment to provide increased financial, technical or equipment assistance, Ottawa should not imagine that it has done all that it can to help the Sudanese.

http://www.sudantribune.com/article.php3?id_article=9560

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 06 - 10:47 PM

Thats right.

China will side with the Arab government of Sudan to protect their oil interests. The U.S. will invade, with a coalition, to back the rebels and there will be more death.

France and Germany declined to call it genocide. They did not deny that there was widespread killing and displacement of people.

I wouldn't want to tangle with China and bin laden at the same time, single-handedly.

Hopefully, the U.S. won't decide to "go it alone". Hopefully, they will lend support to the African Union. Unfortunately, the U.S. will probably want to do it "their way".

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 12:01 AM

No. Jaweed alone means 'rider'. 'Jan' adds the weapon to the peaceful picture, so 'Janjaweed' means verbatim armed rider which makes more sense than just 'rider'. Your omission is interesting, Carol.

Not so interesting, really. I just gave the definition I saw in several of the news articles I read about what's been going on there lately.

What is interesting (and a bit pathetic) is your need to try to make my repetition of what I read into something sinister.

Here is a Google search using the key words, Janjaweed and "men on horseback" (with the quotes). You can see numerous articles in which the term "Janjaweed" is translated as Arabic slang for "men on horseback". I do not speak Arabic, so I have to take the word of the people who say they know what it means.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=janjaweed+%22men+on+horseback%22&btnG=Google+Search

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 12:23 AM

I have clicked on your three links with pictures. For two of those links there is no way to tell whether the people portrayed are Janjaweed or not. But the third (first) photo comes with a text. Did you read it, Carol? I did and I laughed about this part:

Nope. I didn't get past the caption, which says, A Janjaweed on the back of (his) camel. The Sudanese government has supplied to the Janjaweed horses and camels.

I did a google image search and used pictures that were captioned as being people who were Janjaweed. To see the picures in their original contexts, do a Google image seach on the key word, Janjaweed.

Here in the US, all of the people pictured and captioned as being Janjaweed (that I found) would be considered by others, and would consider themselves Black.

This tells us nothing about Black people, just as the fact that they speak Arabic tells us nothing about Arabs. What is sinister is when people try to convince others that what is going on in Sudan has anything whatever to do with anyone being "Arab" or "Black".

Just how are people defining "Arab" anyway? And how are they defining "Black"? These are pretty arbitrary classifications under the circumstances, and they are being used in service of an agenda that has nothing whatever to do with human rights or the prevention of genocide.

The rebels are killing civilians, too. But we don't ever hear about that in the news media (at least not the news media in the country in which I live). Why is that?

The reason is because the agenda being served by both sides is that of clearing the people off of the land. The people who support the rebels want the people cleared off the land just as much as the people who support the Janjaweed do. The only difference between the agendas of the two sides is who each side want's to have control of the land once the people are cleared off of it.

The government of Sudan wants to control the land after the people are cleared off of it, and the people backing the rebels want to have control of the land once the people are cleared off of it.

In the final analysis, that's what it all boils down to.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 03 May 06 - 03:01 AM

I would agree with that Carol.

I would go farther and say that the U.S. have not stepped in sooner because they want the Sudanese govt. to do the dirty work. Now that most of the people have been displaced, the U.S. will save the day and gain control of the land.

Nobody really cares about the people who were farming in that area. First they were pushed out by the herdsmen and now by the oilmen. Doesn't matter if its U.S. oilmen or Sudanese (Arab) oilmen. The end result will be more lives lost and many more atrocities comitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 May 06 - 11:02 AM

Carol, thanks for the link and for the support in making my point. The first sentence of the first hit that you see even without clicking on the link is:

The name "Janjaweed" means "armed men on horseback."

Not 'sinister', Carol, that was not in my mind. 'Biased carelessness' was in my mind. There are many more explanations of the word janjaweed in the web or in print using a full translation than the wrong one you have given. I don't believe that everything you have read happened to give the wrong translation. I rather believe that you have read both translations in turn and have kept in memory the one that did fit your bias.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 11:21 AM

I never saw the definition you used, Wolfgang, before I used the definition of "men on horseback" (without the word "armed").

It cannot possibly be carelessness or an omission or bias if I was unaware of the definition you gave prior to your having posted it. I would have had to be aware of that definition in order for your point to have been proven. Not only was I not aware of the definition you gave, but I was also unaware that there might possibly be more than one definition used by different people. If you look further in that search, you can see that there are numerous articles where the word "armed" is not mentioned at all. And most of those articles are not in any way sympathetic to the Janjaweed. In fact they are quite critical of them. So it's not even bias on their part to have used the definition I gave.

But I can assure you that had I seen that definition you gave prior to posting what I did, I would most certainly have included the word "armed", because I know from long experience that if I ever make a mistake of any kind, you will be along very soon to correct me.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 May 06 - 11:22 AM

I easily believe that in the USA all the people involved would be considered 'black'. That's understandable when looking at your history.

In the context of the country involved the people considered by themselves and by others as 'Arabs' are easily distinguishable (with few errors) from the others. How else would one party know whom to kill and whom not.

Musa Hilal (considered by most as the leader of the Janjaweed)
A Darfurian refugee

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 11:29 AM

One further point...

In order for there to be a bias on my part, I would have to be sympathetic to the Janjaweed. I have never given any indication that I am in any way sympathetic to the Janjaweed, because I am NOT in any way sympathetic to the Janjaweed, and you cannot find a single post from me that would suggest otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 11:42 AM

So in your mind this all boils down to who is the most heavily pigmented, Wolfgang?

Promoting racial hatred (which is what you are involved in doing), by cynically using the victimization of one group of people (in this case people you are calling "Black") for the purpose of spreading hatred towards a second group of people (the ones you are calling "Arabs"), in service of a political agenda that is not in any way humanitarian (which is what the government of some Western countries and Western media are doing), is racism.

If you are genuinely interested in what is best for the Dafurian farmers, you won't participate in what these people are doing. Because the end result of all of this pressure on the US government to take action will not be good for the farmers. They will still get cleared off of their land. And many, many more of them will die in the process. All you have to do to know the truth of this is to see what is happening right now in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:17 PM

Admitting that people are racially different, identifying what the agendas of the racially different groups are and why are the first steps to understanding this and many other conflicts. Calling Wolfgang a racist because he's trying to do that smacks of woolliness and lazy-mindedness.

Any understanding of the umpteen conflicts that have dogged the Sudan pretty much since independence (some fifty years ago) rests on an understanding of the very dichotomies that exist there. Firstly, there is Muslim/non-Muslim; secondly, Arab/African. In most cases, these dichotomies co-exist, e.g. the Southern Sudanese, who have been fighting the Khartoum government for equal rights, revenues, etc. on and off for the past fifty years are both non-Muslim and African. The government in Khartoum is Arab and Muslim. As we have already agreed, the Darfur conflict is not based on religious conflict. Where we disagree is that I believe it to be an ethnic conflict. Just saying "Well, they're all black anyway, so they're all the same" is just not good enough for me.

It's interesting that the example of Iraq was brought into the equation. In the Sudan and Saddam-era Iraq, both governments proclaimed that their countries were "Arab" and both claimed allegiance to the greater "Watan Al-Arabi" (Arab Nation) despite the fact that both countries had significant non-Arab minorities (30+% in the case of the Sudan and approx. 25% in Iraq); these minorities were thus sidelined. In both countries, the non-Arab minorities have been discriminated against, and in some cases, directly persecuted. (I'm aware, by the way, that much of the persecution in Saddam-era Iraq was against Arabs; that leads us to the inter-Arab sectarian Sunni/Shia divide, which is perhaps best discussed elsewhere.)

I'm aware that the Americans went into Iraq ill-prepared and that they've made a right cock-up of it. However, that does not justify looking the other way while the Fur continue to be murdered, raped and displaced in huge numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:18 PM

This is how you can tell that there are hidden agendas at work in this conflict...

Did anyone notice in beardedbruce's CNN link, that the "Justice and Equality Movement" has been described as being "closely linked to Islamic fundamentalists"?

In any other context, the very same people who are supporting these "ethnically Black" rebels would be calling them "Islamo-fascist terrorists". Why not now? What is different in this context?

The difference is that in this case, the "ethnically Black Islamo-fascist terrorists" are being used as proxy fighters for Western oil interests.

And by the way, my sympathies in this particular conflict are mostly on the side of the farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: melodeonboy
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:22 PM

Apologies again. That was me above, not "Guest"!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 03 May 06 - 01:26 PM

melodeonboy, my suggestion that Wofgang is practicing racism is based on my long experience with his posting history, not just with his stance on this particular issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 06 - 05:59 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/04/darfur.talks.ap/index.html

ABUJA, Nigeria (AP) -- Sudanese rebels on Thursday endorsed a new proposal drafted by the United States and Britain to help end the war in the troubled Darfur region, saying it meets their key demands and could set the stage for a peace accord.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:44 PM

So I guess it is possible to negotiate with terrorists. Looks like doing so might just save a few lives, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Only when the terrorists are willing to admit the other side has the right to be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:54 PM

Or when the other side is willing to hear them when they say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:56 PM

True, and some terrorists are neither willing to listen to the other side, nor allow for their existance. Or has Hamas made any changes to it's charter?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 06 - 09:57 PM

Actually, I was thinking that your posts perfectly describe the government of Israel, beardedbruce, but that's another thread, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 06 - 10:07 PM

BTW, the Hamas charter does not deny anyone's right to be alive. It denies the right of other people to create a political entity on what they consider to be their land. You and I might not agree with that stance, but it is a pretty big falsehood to suggest that that is the same thing as denying anyone's right to be alive.

But that's not the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 01:54 PM

The United Nations says 180,000 people have died from illness and malnutrition since rebels began attacking in February of 2003, and some 2 million have been forced from their homes.

U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick, who's attending the talks, told The Associated Press on Friday that participation by Minni Minnawi, who leads the largest rebel group, has been key.

The deal reportedly includes disbanding of the government-backed Arab "janjaweed" militias. The militias are blamed for killing and raping villagers and burning villages of mostly black Africans.

The United States has branded the situation in Darfur a genocide.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/05/darfur.talks/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:41 PM

I don't know what the hell Muslim genocide in the Sudan has to do with Israel.

What is happening in the Sudan is WRONG, and the fact it's Muslims doing it has got little to do with Israel.

Start another thread to bash the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:47 PM

Peace, I was responding to something beardedbruce said. I did not bring Israel into the discussion. Take a pill, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:09 AM

"Actually, I was thinking that your posts perfectly describe the government of Israel, beardedbruce, but that's another thread, isn't it?"

Take one yourself, ma'am. Suppository.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:19 AM

That was a response to the Hamas comment, Peace. Remember where Hamas is an issue? Here's a hint... it ain't in Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:21 AM

Gee, no SHIT Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:21 AM

Precisely.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Peace
Date: 06 May 06 - 12:23 AM

But more precisely, you brought Israel into this thread. NOT Beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 06 May 06 - 01:49 AM

Peace, I may have been the first one to use the name "Israel" in this thread, but I am NOT the one who brought up the subject of Israel. At this point in time, is not possible to separate any discussion of Hamas from the subject of Israel. That may change at some point in the future, but right now, that is the reality. If beardedbruce makes an accusation against Hamas, he does it in the context of the subject of Israel. You may not like this, but as they say, too bad.

And of course, long after beardedbruce and I have left off the subject of Israel (more than twenty four hours before you made your post), now YOU are the one who is carrying it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:23 PM

NYALA, Sudan (CNN) -- Angry demonstrators have killed a Sudanese interpreter working with African Union forces in Darfur in riots that broke out during a senior U.N. official's visit to a camp for displaced Sudanese, forcing him to flee.

Jan Egeland, the United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs, said the man was killed in an African Union police station after Egeland and his entourage were chased from the Kalma camp during violent protests.

The man, who was hacked to death when a civil police post was overrun after Egeland fled the camp, was serving as a translator for the police.

Egeland condemned the killing, saying it was the result of rising tensions in the camp. He urged local officials, U.N. officials and African Union leaders to find a way to calm the tensions.

In Washington, U.S. President George W. Bush said on Monday he had ordered emergency food stockpiles to be sent to Sudan to help ease the crisis and urged Congress to approve $225 million in food aid.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/08/darfur.talks/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:41 PM

...and of course, the new Conservative Canadian government says we don't have enough troops to send to Darfur.

Opposition leader, Jack Layton, says we should pull troops from Iraq to go to Darfur.

This new government is very resistant to the voice of the people and like Bush, our new PM will do whatever is good for business.

We'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 May 06 - 05:32 PM

I have to disagree with comments about Wolfgang. I think he would oppose any sectarian or racist attacks upon religious and ethnic minorities in any country.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:25 PM

I see nothing in Wolfgang's posts that hint at 'racism'...only an attempt to do a practical clarification of how skin pigmentation is often viewed by others.

What I DO see in this thread is a lot of prickly sniping for the sake of it....sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:28 PM

You're both entitled to your opinions. I happen to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:33 AM

dianavan - 08 May 06 - 04:41 PM

Maybe someone should tell Mr Layton that Canada has no troops in Iraq to pull out and send to Darfur.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:07 AM

teribus - Thats not the first time I have made that same mistake. I meant Afghanistan not Iraq.

Seems logical to me that the U.S. should deal with Afghanistan and Iraq (they started it) and Canada should go to Darfur.

Of course that will never happen since the Bush admin. now have their man (Harper) in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 May 06 - 03:03 PM

Darfur is a problem that Canada cannot solve. Peacekeeping is only possible when two sides have declared a truce; and are willing to use political reasoning to settle differences. The Sudan is a killing ground, and there is no peace and widespread famine and disease, in addition to ethnic cleansing killing. The UN is completely impotent and unwilling to take on the job of sorting out this nightmare. Our troops would not have the equipment or the mandate to cure it either. Stay out of Darfur, until the UN has the balls to lead a mission with some chance of success.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Teribus
Date: 10 May 06 - 11:48 AM

Very true Dave,

Kofi Annan declared it to be the gravest, most serious crisis facing humanity just over two years ago. Colin Powell went there and came away talking about genocide (which it surely is) and the UN, France, Germany and China back peddled like hell - Why? Because if the UN declares that it is genocide then the UN and its member states are COMPELLED to act under the terms of its Charter - that's why the displacement of over two million people and the deaths of over 300,000 are not genocide - there again the man at the helm (Kofi Annan) did not recognise what happened in Rwanda as genocide either, must just be a matter of scale, not intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 May 06 - 02:53 PM

Wofgang is practicing racism

Thanks for the support, but she obviously doesn't mean me. (grin)

I've never been in Sudan, but I've been (before the Darfur conflict) in its Western neighbour where most of the Darfurian refugees now go to, in Chad. My brother has been there in a development project and my (adopted, obviously) niece and goddaughter is black, born in the South of Chad. Most of the money I donate still goes to a school project in Chad.

One cannot overlook the ethnic background of conflicts there between a population that consider themselves (and are considered by others) as 'Arabs' (correctly or not) and much darker skinned people living predominantly in the South considered by the "Arabs" as "Negroes" or blacks. The genetic difference between Subsaharan Africans and Africans living in the Sahara or north of it is hugh. In countries like Chad and Sudan both populations are living in the same country and that is one source of the conflict.

One has to be "colour" and not only colour-blind to not see in the South of Chad that the local elite (police chief, prefect) are usually of a lighter tone of skin and have quite different facial features than nearly all other villagers. The racism there takes by the way quite the same form as racism in Europe (and perhaps America?): the lighter end of the continuum of skin colours consider themselves 'better' and treat the others as 'second class'.

My understanding of the Sudan situation is that this kind of racism contributes to the conflict and that the genetic difference between the groups involved is larger than ussually the genetic difference is between neighbouring groups of people.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 06 - 04:42 PM

But I do mean you, Wolfgang. Regardless of what the specifics of the conflict are in any part of the world, if "Arabs" or "Muslims" are involved, you always side against them.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:19 PM

One of my friends (a young air force pilot I work with) just volunteered to go as a UN Observer. I am lending him my old Commando knife, and suggested he purchase a good .45 and keep it within arms reach at all times. Damn the UN for the corrupt useless bastards they are; all they do is talk do the paperwork and have Observers watch the killing and record the dead.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 06 - 03:58 AM

a quick look at wolfgang's posts shows him speaking against the war in iraq, and against a potential war in iran. while wolfgang often targets religious crackpots (of many religious backgrounds) he speaks supportively of progressives of different cultural backgrounds as well. Wolfgang has acknowledged that Muslims come from many different countries and have different forms of Islam, that Muslims are not a race. He sees Muslims in their complexity of backgrounds and views.

..........a contribution of Wolfgang's from another thread -

Some comments on Iran by Iranians living in exile (mostly my translation):

Ferdos Mirabardi: The only groups protesting openly against the regime are women and students...Women in Iran have lost so much under the mullahs that they defend each little piece of freedom...Each islamic regime is basically hostile to women.

Simin Afschar: Iranians are much more progressive than the reactionary picture of human rights the mullahs have...Ninety percent of the population are held in leash by ten percent, the mullahs and their goons.

Hamid Tafazoli: voices for a change of regime have to come from within the country itself

Hessam Vossoughi. Once the resistance against the Shah has been propagated as 'antiimperialism'..., but behind this 'left' propaganda quickly the antimodern impetus could be seen.

Maryam Namazie: The situation of women living in Islam-stricken societies and under Islamic laws is the outrage of the 21st century. Burqa-clad and veiled women and girls, beheadings, stoning to death, floggings, child sexual abuse in the name of marriage and sexual apartheid are only the most brutal and visible aspects of women's rightlessness and third class citizen status in the Middle East

........

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 09:45 AM

I'm not sure in what way your post refutes what I was saying, Freda. Iranians are not necessarily Arabs, and I don't see how the quotes you provided are an example of a conflict between Muslims and any other group.

One thing that I think is indicative of the kind of racism I'm talking about (and I am definitely not pointing fingers at you in this case), is the tendency to lump all kinds of different ethnicities into one category... essentially, "the other brown people". "Arab" is such a misleading term, regardless of whether or not the group in question uses that term to refer to themselves. It has become a catch-all perjorative in most of the Western world.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 06 - 01:38 PM

You're right, Carol, most Iranians are Persians. (I worked with Iranians for a few years) I appreciate the passion with which you abhor racism, and standing up for people who are generically slandered is brave and commendable. I think it's hard always understand people's motives and it is good that the debate is vigorous. At present I work with Australian Muslims and understand the impact that negative comment has on the various communities.

But I put those quotes of Wolfgang's because as well as being Persians, most Iranians are Muslims, and Wolfgangs quotes from disaffected Muslim and non Muslim intellectuals showed to me his understanding of the diversity of views within Muslim-dominated countries. I think he understand the complexity of the religious and historical factions in Muslim dominated cultures.

Both of you have a lot of insight, and I continually learn from these discussion in Mudcat.

regards

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 01:46 PM

I appreciate your comments, Freda, and I'm glad the Muslims in your country have you working on their behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:42 PM

UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- The U.N. Security Council passed a resolution Tuesday that would accelerate planning for a United Nations peacekeeping force in Sudan's Darfur region.

The resolution, passed unanimously, also threatens "strong and effective measures" -- diplomatic language for sanctions -- against anyone who stands in the way of a May 5 peace agreement signed by the Sudanese government and Darfur's main rebel group.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/16/un.darfur.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:43 PM

from above post...


"While Bolton praised the resolution, it was significantly weaker than one put forward earlier by the administration of President Bush. That draft would have given the United Nations immediate control over peacekeepers in Darfur, but China, Russia and several African nations opposed."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:05 AM

N'DJAMENA, Chad (CNN) -- Children as young as 13 are being forced into combat by Sudanese rebels who take the youngsters from squalid refugee camps in neighboring Chad, CNN has learned.

In some cases, Chadian guards look the other way as rebels make children join their ranks, local people say.

Abdul, 16, told CNN he had no choice: "When I saw them beating some of the people, I was afraid. That's why I couldn't refuse to go.

"I'm not a volunteer -- I was forced," the boy said, visibly scared. (Watch children tell how they were coerced into combat -- 9:35)

The camps are supposed to offer shelter from the conflict across the border in Sudan's Darfur region, where 180,000 people have been killed and 2 million others forced from their homes in fighting between rebels and the Sudanese government-backed Arab militias known as janjaweed.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/05/17/chad.recruitment/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 May 06 - 08:15 AM

Carol, thanks for your kind words. The people I am working with now are middle class, established people and they do not need help. Instead we go through a process of liaison and communication to assist them in helping their own communities.

Previously, when working with refugees, I have interviewed children such as have been mentioned by Bruce on his previous post. They were forced into an army after their parents were murdered by the opposing side, including a young African man who with other young people was put into the front line by the people who took over their village and murdered their parents. They were rescued by UN peace keepers and put into a refugee camp.

Refugee camps around the world are huge places where it is not always possible for the authorities to control the behaviour of guards or workers there, and in some refugee camps there have been incidents of sexual abuse against children and young people.

In previous centuries, displaced people like this were used as slaves by the conquerors. Refugee camps give protection and hope, but ultimately the many displaced people in African and other refugee camps need to be given asylum by sponsoring countries, to be given a chance at a normal life. There are a lot of people sitting in camps in Africa who may be there for decades.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: CarolC
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:44 PM

Good points, freda. Which is why I don't side with the rebels any more than I do with the Janjaweed. They are all committing atrocities.

I side with the farmers, and I wish people would start framing their comments on the situation in Sudan to take into consideration who the real victims are... the unarmed civilian population, both "Arab" and non-"Arab", and most particularly, the farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan was due to meet Mr. Bashir this weekend. But his chances of persuading the president to change his mind seem negligible. It's not that Mr. Bashir has any principled objection to "colonialist" peacekeepers; he has already accepted a 10,000-strong U.N. deployment in Sudan's south as part of a previous peace agreement. It's simply that Mr. Bashir has calculated that he can snub the international community with impunity. As well as ruling out peacekeepers for Darfur, Mr. Bashir has recently imposed a two-day suspension on most Western aid efforts in Darfur and is blockading humanitarian access to the victims of another crisis in Sudan's east. His fighters are exporting instability to neighboring Chad. And he has missed a deadline in the Darfur peace deal for submitting a timetable for disarming the genocidal janjaweed militia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100784.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/07/18/sudan.darfur.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- Sudanese President Omar al-Beshir again rejected calls for him to accept a U.N. force in the Darfur region of Sudan, while the United States pushed for a vote on a U.N. resolution to provide up to 17,300 U.N. troops for such a mission.

John Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, told reporters that he saw progress among U.N. Security Council members in reaching a resolution agreeable to all 15 -- including "a clear desire" on the part of all the five veto-wielding members, "including Russia and China, to move this forward."

British diplomats said the latest draft resolution -- to be discussed Wednesday for a possible vote on Thursday -- would make more explicit than previous versions that deployment of the U.N. force would be in cooperation with the government of Sudan.

Violence erupted three years ago in Darfur, when ethnic African rebels took up arms over what they saw as neglect by the Arab-dominated central government.

The Sudanese government is accused of responding by unleashing Arab militias

Atrocities have included the abuse of children, sexual violence against women and attacks on humanitarian workers, according to the United Nations.

Nine humanitarian workers have been killed in the past month, more than 200 women have been raped at a Darfur refugee camp in the past five weeks, and on Saturday two soldiers with the African Union's mission were killed by an unidentified group of men.

The financially strapped African Union force of 7,000 troops has been unable to quell the violence in Darfur.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/29/sudan.unforce/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 08:08 AM

"KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) -- Sudan gave African Union troops a one-week ultimatum to accept a deal that would block a proposed U.N. peacekeeping force in Darfur or else leave the war-torn region, a step that would likely worsen the world's worst humanitarian disaster.

The deadline announced Monday escalates Khartoum's standoff with the United Nations over Darfur to a key crisis point, pitting Khartoum's determination to resist possible war crimes investigations against the U.N.'s appetite for a new, rough peacekeeping mission.

Many observers believe Sudan has dug in against a U.N. deployment in the vast western region because it fears the force will hunt down officials and government allies suspected of war crimes for atrocities against Darfur's ethnic Africans.

At the same time, the United States and Europe have stepped up their demands that Sudan let in the U.N. troops, which still must be assembled at a time when the world body it putting together a peacekeeping force for south Lebanon. Sweden and Norway underlined on Monday that they were prepared to contribute to a Darfur intervention.

European Union spokesman Amadeu Altafaj Tardio warned of dire consequences if the African Union is forced to pull out before a U.N. force can take over.

"There would be a very difficult scenario," Altafaj Tardio said in a telephone interview. "We need a stronger force on the ground to ensure security. It is crucial to reach an agreement with the Sudanese before that deadline."

The removal of the 7,000 African Union peacekeepers in Darfur would raise the prospect of a new upsurge of fighting in the region, where some 200,000 have been killed and 2.5 million people displaced since 2003."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/09/05/sudan.darfur.ap/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:30 PM

"UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The African Union said Wednesday the mandate for its peacekeeping forces in Darfur will be extended through the end of the year, averting a crisis by ensuring that international troops will remain in the war-torn Sudanese province.
The AU also said the United Nations will provide material and logistic support. The mandate had been set to expire Sept. 30.

An underfunded African Union force in Darfur has been largely unable to stop the violence, leading AU leaders and the U.N. Security Council to demand a takeover by the United Nations, with its deeper pockets and better resources. But the Sudanese government had refused the U.N. peacekeepers."

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:58 PM

Out-gunned soldiers avoid confronting enemy

We went on the road today with African Union peacekeepers in Darfur, Sudan ... you know, those 7,000 ill-equipped and undermanned troops who are supposed to police an area the size of Texas.

The United Nation's top diplomat in the Sudanese capital, Khartoum, told us that some of the units have to cook their own food. How are you supposed to keep the peace when you're worrying whose turn it is to cook? They're also seriously under-equipped in terms of firepower. And the few helicopters they have don't even have enough fuel to fly troops in and out of difficult-to-reach places, the UN's top man told us. And this is their mandate: Shoot ONLY if shot at -- this in one of the most lawless and unforgiving regions on earth.

Well, we were about to find out just how undermanned and ill-equipped they are on this day. We were on patrol with them to a town called Tawiya, recent scene of heavy fighting that forced more than 15,000 civilians to flee their homes. Add that to the roughly 2.5 million internally displaced people, a polite term for refugees in their own country.

Halfway into the trip, the radios started crackling (at least they have radios). There was trouble up ahead and they had to turn back and avoid a confrontation like they had a couple of weeks ago when nearly a dozen of them were killed in a gun battle with anti-government forces. Imagine what this does to morale. Battle-hardened soldiers forced to turn back because the "bad guys" up ahead are better equipped. It' enough to demoralize any troops, and these African Union troops are fast getting demoralized.

The bottom line, their commander told me: He needs twice as many troops, plenty of logistics support, lots of harware and free access to the air, something the Sudanese government is completely opposed to. And to think that these are the soldiers that stand in the way of Africa's second genocide in a little over a decade. They don't appear to stand a chance.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/10/out-gunned-soldiers-avoid-confronting.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:13 AM

Notice how this genocide is being ignored by the "Axis of Evil"?

On Darfur, Hugo Chavez Asks for More Time to Study, While Planning West Africa Oil Refinery

Hugo Chavez, president of Venezuela who is vying for a seat on the Security Council, said on Wednesday that he would need more time to study the question of Darfur before recommending sending UN peacekeepers or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:53 AM

The "mandate: Shoot ONLY if shot at" and instructions to avoid confrontation are common for ALL UN Peacekeeping Operations BB. There is also a popularly held misconception that UN Peacekeepers are sent into situations to solve problems and protect people. There are clearly defined conditions that must be met in any conflict situation before UN "Peacekeepers" can be deployed, with the over-riding proviso that if fighting resumes between factions the UN Peacekeepers are withdrawn.

What is needed in Darfur is for the UN Secretary General to recognise the situation for what it is - Genocide - then clearly state that in a report to the Security Council. The UN, according to it's Charter, must then act to prevent further bloodshed. What would then have to be raised would be a UN Force tasked with the following objectives:
a. Provide security in the area by actively confronting and engaging those armed groups involved
b. Disarm all factions and armed forces operating in that area, by force if necessary.
c. Assist and protect aid agencies in their efforts
d. Force negotiations between the central Government an the rebel factions.
e. UN presence maintained in the area initially to protect the general population and deter future Janjaweed/Sudanese Army incursions.

The above force would not be a "Peacekeeping" Force in UN terms and at present I doubt whether the member states of the UN would be willing to front up such a force. So as with Rwanda, Kofi Annan and the UN, can once again dither and turn away. Everything stated above should have been done by Mr. Annan at least two years ago.

Old Guy, I wonder if Hugo Chavez, being the populist people's President that some proclaim him to be, would consider going to the area to see for himself. Somehow I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:37 AM

Chavez claims to be fighting for the oppressed underdog.

Why wouldn't he use some of his oil money to help save the lives of the non Muslims that are being exterminated in Darfur by the Muslim Janjaweed terrorists supported by the Sudanese government instead of useing it to drive a wedge between poor people in the US and their government?

The reason is, even though the said "I am Catholic Christian", he needs to show Solidarity with Omar Hassan Ahmed Al-Bashier and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who are Muslim tyrants that support terrorism and Jihad against non muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 11:47 AM

Darfur in grave danger, says Annan
POSTED: 12:38 a.m. EDT, October 6, 2006
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UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said on Thursday Darfur was close to a catastrophe, as the United States sought to rebuke Sudan for trying to scare off potential U.N. troop contributors.

Annan, in his monthly report on Sudan's vast Darfur region, said violence, rape and insecurity were on the rise, despite a peace agreement between the government and one rebel group.

"The region is again on the brink of a catastrophic situation," he wrote.

Fighting among armed rebels, militia and bandits has continued, despite the Khartoum government's decision to send more troops to Darfur. Khartoum has refused a U.N. takeover of the cash-strapped and struggling African Union force in Darfur.

"Unless security improves, the world is facing the prospect of having to drastically curtail an acutely needed humanitarian operation," Annan said.

The United States demanded that the Security Council respond to Sudan's warning that any nation pledging U.N. troops for Darfur was committing a "hostile act" and a "prelude to an invasion."

The warning came in an unsigned letter on Thursday from Sudan's U.N. mission to dozens of countries, many of whom attended a meeting on September 25 on potential pledges of troops to a U.N. force in Darfur.

"In the absence of Sudan's consent to the deployment of U.N. troops, any volunteering to provide peacekeeping troops to Darfur will be considered as a hostile act, a prelude to an invasion of a member country of the U.N," the letter said.

In response, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton circulated a draft statement, obtained by Reuters, that Security Council members will consider on Friday.

U.S. 'deplores' Sudan letter
It says the council "deplores" the Sudan mission's attempt "to intimidate potential troop-contributing countries volunteering forces for a peacekeeping mission in Darfur."

"This aggressive gesture by Sudan directed at fellow member states challenges the will of the Security Council," which has authorized up to 22,500 troops and police for Darfur, and "is unacceptable behavior by a member state of the United Nations."

Bolton noted that the diplomatic note was inconsistent with a polite letter Sudan's President Omar Hassan al-Bashir wrote to Annan this week welcoming U.N. logistics and other support to the AU mission in Darfur.

The AU's under-financed 7,000 troops and monitors have been unable to stop the violence that has driven 2.5 million people from their homes and left at least 200,000 dead since 2003.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/05/annan.darfur.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:54 AM

U.N. report says hundreds died in August attacks in Darfur
POSTED: 4:08 p.m. EDT, October 9, 2006
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GENEVA, Switzerland (Reuters) -- The United Nations human rights chief Monday said "several hundred" civilians -- far more than first thought -- may have died in late August attacks by militias in the south of Sudan's violent Darfur region.

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour said the attacks appeared to have been carried out with the "knowledge and material support" of the government.

"The attacks ... were massive in scale, involving a large number of villages, and were carried out over only a few days. Government knowledge, if not complicity, in the attacks is almost certain," according to a report by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

A statement accompanying the report said, "The (OHCHR) ... is urging the government of Sudan to order an independent investigation into recent militia attacks that may have left hundreds of civilians dead in south Darfur."

Early last month the OHCHR put the possible death toll from raids near Buram at 38. Many of the 10,000 people in the 45 villages targeted in the attacks, which began on August 28 and lasted into September, were forced to flee.

But the office of the high commissioner revised the toll in its latest report on the situation in Darfur, drawn up with the United Nations Assistance Mission in Sudan, and based on interviews with survivors of the attacks and other sources.

"The large-scale assaults resulted in chaotic displacement, widespread separation of families and scores of missing children," the report said. "Most of the villages attacked were under government control," it added.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/09/sudan.massacre.reut/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 11:23 AM

Actually, Elderly Guy, it's Muslims the Janjaweed are killing in Darfur, not non-Muslims. So you can go back to not caring, now.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 11:26 AM

starting post of this thread for rehearsal:

There is ongoing genocide in Sudan. Arab Muslims are killing about 1,000 Black Muslims each week.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:10 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/22/sudan.darfur.un/index.html


But why bother mentioning it?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:02 AM

The Liberal Crybaby "socially responsible" Mudcatters here are so busy trying to bury Bush with the people killed in Iraq that they are not concerned about the people being murdered in Sudan.

They think Walmart is more evil than Omar Hassan al-Bashir.

Coalition for Darfur: Darfur: 80 Children Under 5 Dying Every Day
Darfur: 80 Children Under 5 Dying Every Day. From the AP. Myriam Ibrahim does not like to talk about her daughter Fawzia. The smallest of triplet girls born ...

CBC News In Depth: Crisis Zone: Darfur, Sudan
The conflict has killed more than 200000 people, and more than 200000 have ... Children in refugee camps are dying every day from starvation and exhaustion. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:58 AM

Where is the almighty America? Where is the self-righteous, fighters for freedom and democracy?

They're in Iraq, shooting themselves in the foot when they should be in Darfur.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 02:08 AM

Sorry, dianavan, the Sudanese will not allow the US, or even the UN to send troops in. Or do you advocate the invasion of another country that has not attacked us? It has already been ruled out that the UN be able to enforce its sanctions against the desire of the country involved. ( See Iraq, Iran, Lebenon, Korea...)


BTW, where is your holier-than-thou Canada? Or Britain? Or France? Or China? Or Japan?

The US *HAS* declared it to be genocide, which is more than Canada or the UN has been able to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:15 AM

Where is socially responsible Dianavan?

Bitching and moaning about Walmart, GWB, and Jews.

Example: "Isn't this a form of neglect or abuse? Isn't WalMart contributing to the deprivation of these children?"

Why doesn't she start an "Invade Sudan" crusade?

Or would she prefer an "Invade Walmart" crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:06 PM

When it comes to genocide, I think the world should step in to end it. That is the socially responsible thing to do.

The U.S., however, has tied itself up by attempting to fight terrorist criminals instead of opposing a government that is intent on genocide. There is a big difference between calling police action a war and actually waging a just war in defense of human lives. I can't support the deployment of troops in an effort to force democracy down the throats of a Muslim nation but I can support a multi-national force attempting to stop genocide.

We should be in the Sudan not in Afghanistan or Iraq. That goes for Canadian and British forces, too.

Comparing WalMart and the Sudan is comparing apples to oranges. Different threads for different topics. Are you so deperate to attempt a 'put down' that you have to reach that far out of bounds.

I do believe we should invade the Sudan. I also believe that you have to fight evil at home and on the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:42 AM

Seems the US was against Saddam trying to exterminate the Kurds and it was one reason to invade Iraq.

So we invade Sudan. Then what? Install "our son of a bitch" to run things? Try to convert it to a Democracy? Listen to crybaby liberals yowl that is all about oil and feeding more money to Halliburton?

Building some Walmarts over there might give them jobs and a better standard of living.

Give us a game plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:47 PM

What if Iraq or Iran should invade the USA and kill hundreds of thousands of us, would that make us terrorists?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:19 PM

Thats odd. I thought it was Iran who was against Saddam trying to exterminate the Kurds. Wasn't it the U.S. who supplied Saddam with the military might to perform his dastardly deeds?

So now all of a sudden you think the U.S. invaded Iraq to protect the Kurds? First I ever heard that story. Your really scraping the bottom to justify the invasion of Iraq.

btw - Halliburton is not the only kid on the block when it comes to re-building. In fact, if Halliburton or any of their subsidiaries were involved, it would be highly suspect.

I'm saying that if the U.S. had their priorities straight, they would be sending their troops to the Sudan. As it is, they have embroiled their troops and the allied troops in fighting a war that will not benefit anybody except Cheney and his gang of thieves.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: NH Dave
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 11:08 PM

The US has cut its military to such a level, as a result of people crying for us to spend the money on more worthwhile efforts, that it can no longer mount another action, even in Sudan. This is the reason that many combatants, especially the Marines are facing a third tour in Iraq already.

We're tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq, with little ideas of how soon we can disengage, and bring the troops home.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Old Guy
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 12:16 AM

Dianavan:

None of your babling presents a plan of just what America should do in Sudan. I thought that was the issue.

Your method of debate consists of non factual, unsupported rhetoric, solely designed to make "the other side" look bad. It does nothing for your credibility and it does not advance your cause. Like those little Palestinian rock throwers.

Maybe you think if everybody just constantly pisses and moans about Cheney, Halliburton, Iraq, Saddam etc. it will cause something change in Sudan. I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:40 AM

On the other hand, the longer we sit back and do very little about so many of these little wars, Aids and a few other things like this, the closer we get to the solution of a big problem, the massive overpopulation of the earth.

Nothing is entirely bad, except possibly a 78 verse child ballard being sung very badly....

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 10:10 PM

Actually, guy, its you who make the unsupported statements.

You say the U.S. invaded Iraq to protect the Kurds. Where did you get that idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:31 AM

What I said was "Seems the US was against Saddam trying to exterminate the Kurds and it was one reason to invade Iraq."

Where did you get the Idea that I said something different?


There is not a glimmer of a plan in your statement, just rock throwing.

Like I said, your method of debate consists of non factual, unsupported rhetoric, solely designed to make "the other side" look bad. It does nothing for your credibility and it does not advance your cause. Like those little Palestinian rock throwers.

Keep throwing your rocks and something will be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim genocide in Sudan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:40 AM

"The Bush administration has labeled the crisis a genocide.

"The plight of the people in Darfur is the making of the Sudanese," Pronk told CNN Correspondent Jeff Koinange in an interview Wednesday. "The people have been forgotten, neglected, marginalized. The government is responsible for using the army and Arab militia, which kill and kill and do not abide by any rule, let alone human rights rules."

Pronk drew sharp criticism from the Sudanese military this month after blogging that government forces had suffered serious losses recently at the hands of rebels in Darfur.

In an October 14 blog entry, Pronk wrote: "First, the SAF [Sudanese Armed Forces] has lost two major battles -- last month in Umm Sidir and this week in Karakaya. The losses seem to have been very high. Reports speak about hundreds of casualties in each of the two battles with many wounded and many taken as prisoner."

"The morale in the government army in North Darfur has gone down. Some generals have been [fired]; soldiers have refused to fight," the Dutch diplomat said.

On Thursday, Mohamad said Pronk was not truthful about the army, saying that Pronk relied on unverified third party accounts.

Pronk was sent to Sudan to try to convince the government and rebel factions to comply with a peace agreement signed about five months ago.

A U.N. resolution approved August 31 authorized the creation of a more robust, better-equipped U.N. peacekeeping mission. But Sudanese President Omar Hassan al-Bashir has refused to accept such a force, saying it would violate his country's sovereignty.

Pronk has urged countries to push for a prolonged and beefed-up African Union force.

An estimated 200,000 Sudanese have been killed and more than 2 million displaced in the Darfur province in western Sudan since the conflict began, according to the United Nations. An African Union peacekeeping force has been unable to stop the violence.

"More than 2 million people in camps. You can say that Darfur has been cleansed," Pronk said in the CNN interview. "The international community took action too little and too late."

He added: "For many people, it is too late. They cannot be salvaged anymore because they have been killed, they have raped, atrocities have taken place with impunity in this part of the country.""

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/10/26/Sudan.ambassador/index.html