To Sing or not to sing....

Subject: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:52 AM

Hello All,

I was having an indepth discussion with my brother the other day, this was very strange, as we usually talk about girls,beer and football like all good men and true.However, this time, we were talking about bands in the folk scene and what is the formula to success. We noticed a very obvious observation that the majority of folk artists who have 'made it' are singers, either unaccompanied or in bands. As my band is a non singing band, is it better to learn a few songs and just bite the bullet and learn some songs? Do singers have a better chance of working as Folk clubs tend to like it more? or shall me and my brother go back to talking about Arsenal?

I leave it to you lot to decide....

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:19 AM

Speaking as a singer (not bad) and a musician (bad!), I must say I prefer singing bands to music-only bands. I don't dance (and who does, in a folk club?), but I like to sing along. This is the big difference: at a concert you can join in a chorus, or even a whole song, but you can't whip out a whistle and join in a tune.

Its great to hear and see real musical talent: great to listen to well-played tunes and great to watch those magical fingers whizzing about. But throw in a few join-inable songs too.

Steve

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:26 AM

I ran a folk concert series for 27 years, and during that time, I also ran a summer folk festival. I never booked a completely instrumental band... not even for dances. I booked unaccompanied singers, but not unsinging bands. I don't think that my audience would have sat through a whole evening of instrumentals, no matter how good the band was.

That said, the singers in many of the bands weren't great singers. In some of them, I figured that they drew straws and the one who lost had to sing. But, that wasn't critical. Many string bands over here in the Yew Ess Aye weren't reno3wned for being great singers, but they brought energy, and a sense of humor to their music.

I'd encourage you to get whoever seems to be the best (and willing) singer in your group to sing leads, and any passable singers in the band to join in on choruses on songs that have them.

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:33 AM

Probably the most lucrative gigs for a purely instrumental band are Dance Band ones. This does mean having a suitable repertoire, having a caller (or knowing a few) and being willing to play at a suitable speed for dancers. There's plenty of bookings around for a capable band and caller, but it can be quite hard work.

Most folk clubs don't really want to book a non-singing band for a whole evening, but some pubs might be willing - the money isn't likely to be anywhere near what you'd get for the average Barn Dance though.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Moses
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:36 AM

Personally, I would not go to hear a band perform unless they included a substantial percentage of songs, no matter how good they were. Just personal taste this, but most people who go to folk clubs like to join in on the choruses or sing along.

Music-only bands are OK for dances, because there would be something else to do other than just listen.

You are likely to find bookings restricted to dances unless you include at least a goodly proportion of songs.

The folk clubs I go to would rarely (if ever) book bands who did not also sing.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:49 AM

For me, few instrumental bands or soloists are good enough to keep me entertained for a whole evening. I like variety.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:53 AM

Sooz, that's "variety" (small "v"), not "Varierty" (capital "V")? I know a bit of comedy often goes down well, but I'm not sure about juggling or dog acts!

Steve

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:00 AM

Until the Chieftains got Kevin Coneff they were one of the worlds most successful non singing bands, no one can argue about how good they are.
eric

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:21 AM

I like listening to tunes as much as listening to songs. I could even enjoy a whole evening of tunes-only. BUT I would be a lot more demanding of a non-singing band or instrumentalist than I would of a singer or singing band. Only the absolute best instrumentalists can cut it for me.

I don't think I am being harsh, as instrumentalists only give me one aspect to enjoy: the music and their dexterity. Singers give me the tune, their voice and expressiveness, the lyrics and the story behind them. The weight is distributed then, and I can find usually something good in one of those aspects to enjoy.

I would strongly advise learning some songs.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:03 AM

Give me a singing band any day. I would almost never watch an act that was just musos & I can't recall ever booking one (my folk club is famous for it's singing audience).

I love singing & take any opportunity to sing along with bands & performers & sessions.

sandra

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GLoux
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:05 AM

Not too long ago, I went to a concert featuring an Irish band that did no songs, but had an invited guest singer come up and sing a song every once in a while. It worked. The concert was very good. I'm just trying to point out that there are different approaches to solving your situation, if you're going to heed the advise your getting here.

-Greg

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Mooh
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:43 AM

I like a good instrumental band, but so often all the tunes start to sound the same. The instrumental duo (guitar and fiddle) in which I play tries to mix things up by playing swing tunes, "celtic" tunes, bluegrass tunes, waltzes, and other styles, without prejudice. The fiddler always plays the same fiddle so her changes in tone and timbre have to come from her hands and that one instrument, but I will use at least a couple of guitars to help vary the sound at least a bit. Dynamics can effect the audience responce greatly. We intend to expand our range of instruments but side obligations tend to distract us too much.

My singer/songwriter duo could benefit from more instrumentals, but we tend to vary the amount of soloing and jamming we do based on the feel of the moment. My sense is that the audience likes the instrumental breaks a lot, and that they strengthen the show.

As a listener I like everything about equally, provided it is sincerely and competently played.

Saw The Creaking Tree String Quartet last year and didn't miss the vocal element at all.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Flash Company
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:10 AM

A pal at work once brought a whole bunch of Instrumentalists to a club I was helping to run at the time. It split the audience right down the middle, half loved them, half hated them!
Just proves you can't please all the people all the time.

FC

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:19 PM

I say sing.

A

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: TS
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:55 PM

Gotta go for the concensus..learn afew songs...as stated with the Chieftains..great band and always will be, but even they knew songs had to come around, and when Kevin doesnt sing, they always have a special guest or two at a live show to do afew songs...go for it..whats the harm...even if its just 5 or 6 songs that everyone loves...(or atleast knows)......Slainte!

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Rasener
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:44 PM

Depends on the audience, but I woudn't sit watching a group that didn't sing. Unless it was for 3 or 4 songs.
I woudn't book anybody for my club either, who only played instruments, other than 3 or 4 numbers.
I am not a musician, I am a listener.
That is a constructive comment :-)

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:33 PM

Davey Baby

I've had the privilege of hearing Mawkin and though you are a mighty nice bunch of guys and sickeningly good musicians, for such a tender age, here is my advice:-

1. Learn some songs.
2. When the fiddle player is leading, the melodeon chappy ought to play some background chords, drones, simple fills, so that he doesn't look out on a limb.
3. When the melodeon chappy is leading, the fiddle player ought to play some background drones, simple fills, so that he doesn't look out on a limb.

Why?

Well, I listened to a lot of instrumental bands at the Oxford folk festival (where I heard you) and as some other people mentioned in the thread earlier, each repertoire began to sound the same. You guys weren't guilty of that because you played tunes from different sources, traditions, styles and mixed it up nicely. And, as also mentioned earlier, singing adds another dimension to the band and makes it more interesting to a wider bunch of people. You don't have to either do a song or a tune, you can do a tune that leads into a song or vice versa. So mix it up laddie, get everyone involved more of the time and if you find your voices are not individually strong, do plenty of harmonies. There are vocal bands whose sum of the parts sound great despite being mediocre soloists. Eventually you will find that just like playing an instrument, the more you sing, the better your voice, expression, delivery and style will improve. You will start to get gigs in clubs too rather than just ceilidhs and festivals.

Regards to the lads and keep smiling!

Pete

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:12 PM

Dave, you have a good act with Mawkin, I have never heard you or Jamie sing but unless you are as good on vocals as you are on instrumentals it probably isn't a good commercial proposition. If you are after club/concert gigs then find a guest vocalist instead.

For those who don't know the band picture here

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: michaelr
Date: 21 May 04 - 02:08 AM

I can only think of one trad band of any stature that does not sing, and that is Lunasa. And while I could listen to them play for days, I can relate to the sentiment that "it all starts sounding the same" -- that's what it was like for me while I was getting acquainted with Irish dance music.

It seems clear that if you have a capable singer you will appeal to larger audiences. You would have to be quite a dedicated tune purist to turn down that prospect.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 02:34 AM

Personally, I could listen to (for example) Aly Bain playing fiddle all night, but then again there ain't too many people with that degree of skill and range of styles. A singer need not be the best in the world to hold the audience's attention if the choice of songs is right - make the songs and/or their description and context interesting and you have a sporting chance of keeping the listeners with you all night.

wr.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for the input guys, thats kind of helped.
For those of you who dont know my band, were a Ceilidh/Concert band, we do ceilidh's most saturdays at private functions during the winter, and then when the festival season starts we turn into a concert band and do the festivals.

Thanks for your advice Pete (from Oxon), we know what your getting at, and have actually started doing tunes like you said, its just that Alex, (the melodeon chappy) has only been with us for 6 months, and has never been on stage before joining us, so his been chucked in the deep end, most of our tunes are in non melodeon keys and so he's still working out the bass side.
Anyway, we saw And Cutting and Chris Wood the over day, who are a fantastic example of drones over melody and things, so we all took notes and will be working our own wayof doing something like that.

As for now, I think im going to enforce singing practice amongst the guys and get our vocals in gear.As its clear that singing is far more popular.I think we wont do any dirge stuff just the unplifting funny happy songs.

all the best and thanks for the tips.

Dave

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Nick
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:53 AM

I went to see Máire Ní Chathasaigh & Chris Newman last year and, if my memory serves me right, they sang perhaps a couple of songs at most during the set that they played. If anything they were the parts of their show that I least enjoyed.

But the range of music they played was so wide and their level of virtuosity / musicianship was so high that I never missed the singing and yearned to hear more of the playing. And wow what a guitar player.

Going to see them in Helmsley at the beginning of July and am not in the least bit bothered if not a single word is sung.

On the other hand I saw the Tabbush sisters at Whitby last year where not a note was played on an instrument and the experience was similarly magical for very different reasons. (As an aside does anyone know if they are due to play anywhere near Yorkshire this year as it would be really good to see them again?)

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:53 AM

And don't neglect eye contact! I don't expect Pete's photo is typical, but if you spend a lot of time looking at your audience and not too much watching your fingers, your audience will feel much more of a rapport with you. But I'm sure you know this.

It can be a problem for singers: if you close your eyes too much during songs, the audience may not feel you're singing to them so much as to yourself.

Steve

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Oryx
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:06 AM

On a slightly phiolosophical note and without wishing to stir up animosity, it does stike me that many singers get away with murder. If they were an eqivalent standard on a whistle, fiddle or guitar, no one would suffer them for an instant. What is is about WORDS that makes singing so special? It generally takes a very good singer (does not have to have a good voice, though this helps) to really tell the story and communicate with an audience. I suspect that prior knowledge of a song and story by an audience causes them to be moved by what they already have in their heads - their own ideal version if you like - NOT by what they are actualy hearing (unless it is REALLY good or bad). This creates an interesting bias which causes us to have a disproportionate desire to listen to and enjoy the songs we know rather than songs brilliantly performed that we don't know. As a thought experiment to test this hypothesis, would an excellent band, who sang songs that no one knows be entertaining (disregearding humour)? It does seem that being able to join in is a crucial part of being entertained. This is no bad thing but it does seem a little unfair to instrumental players who may be exceptionally tallented but relatively far less entertaining. Should we make more of an effort to appreciate the unknown? Should we have to make an effort at all?

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:25 AM

Hi Steve,

I know what your getting at, and that photo is not typical of what we are normally like, we usually build up a rapport with the audience through talking about stuff, silly stories, jokes and just general strange attributes each member of the band has. I think our gig at Waltham Abbey Folk Club worked because of this.We are definitely not a folk club band, but it worked because of the rapport, many of the audience were singers, but still enjoyed it because of the talking and general light hearted humour that happense when we take the piss out of each other.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: VIN
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:51 AM

Hmmm, keeping your eyes open as a singer is a bit of a problem (well for me it is). I'm more likely to forget words/lines if i'm looking at people (and may be at the back of my mind trying to wonder if that guy/lady really is bored stiff or just naturally looks that way) as i find it harder to concentrate - more so if i'm playing whistle which i very occasionally do. S'pose practice, practice and more practice may be the answer. Some folks semm to be just naturals at singing and/or playing at an audience with eyes agape. Wonder if that's why many singers/players on the circuit are teachers or ex teachers (you know, kind of used to 'performing' in front of an audience - classroom?). I've often noted that Vin Garbutt (and other pros)tends to shut his eyes a lot when singing, but then he makes up for it by his great banter and very humourous tales. Oh well.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: michaelr
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:14 PM

Don't know if Dave will come back to this thread, but here's an afterthought:

"I think im going to enforce singing practice amongst the guys and get our vocals in gear." No, no, that's not it!

The operative term in my earlier post is capable singer. De Danann comes to mind as a great tune band who couldn't sing but fostered no less than four great female vocalists who went on to distinguished careers -- Dolores Keane, Maura O'Connell, Mary Black, and Eleanor Shanley.

My point is: keep doing what you're good at, concentrate on the playing, and don't dilute your strong suit with something you don't do well. Instead, look for a comely lass with a great voice and feature her fronting the band. In addition to the sound, you and your audiences will have something nice to look at, as well!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:49 PM

Make a tape of yourself singing and ask yourself

1. Do I sing in tune? If not, then stick to funny songs.

2. Do I lack breath support so that the tone of my voice changes during a line? This is what makes singers sound amateur.

3. If you sound good, can you do it in front of a crowd?

If you think your singing is enjoyable, then I would recommend doing it. Variety is so important to a good show.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Cluin
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:04 PM

Yes, sing. You don't have to be good. Look at Dylan.

And keep your eyes open. You miss most of the fun otherwise. My buddy closes his eyes a lot when he sings. He missed the chick flashing her boobs to the bar.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:32 PM

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Whoops
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:35 PM

Dont sing Dave! You guys playing the tunes is good enough, saw you at Norfolk (I came up to you afterwards), you have a relaxed attitude on stage and came across really well, great choice in tunes and lovely arrangements, you've got drive in your music and don't need to worry about splitting up your set.Keep at it, and people will follow.Cant wait for the album!

Jerry

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:30 AM

Thanks for the advice Michael, obviously we wont sing if none of us are good at it, I saw Sunhoney at Folk on The Pier, and they did a few sets (to break it up a little) with this fantastic female vocalist, so I think that may be the direction we should take, but until we find one and get asked to do better and longer sets we wont worry about it and get on with learning some more great tunes.

Hi Jerry! I hope your headache wasnt too bad after FOTP!

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 May 04 - 07:59 AM

Interesting how different folk is from classical. The general opinion here is that bands should throw in a few songs for variety, even if their primary strength is instrumental. But in classical music concerts that are completely are very standard indeed.Beethoven didnt feel the need to bung in a few choruses of the Wild Rover half way through the Pastoral Symphony for a bit of a change. Why is this?

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: IanC
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:01 AM

Greg

Perhaps you should study the Bach family.

:-)

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:56 AM

I `ad that Beet`oven in my cab once. I said `ow come you never `ave no songs in your shows? `e said if you`d ever `eard the audience at the Vienna Opera `ouse belting out the chorus of "Your Tiny `and is Frozen" you`d understand why!
What am I like??

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:28 PM

Dave

There are some people who naturally good singers. There are others who if they work at it could become good singers and others who despite how hard they try will never manage it. The vocal chords need to be trained to do the job; so do muscles/brain to play an instrument. When Sandy Denny left Fairport Convention, Swarbrick and Thompson took over her role. Listen to Full House and you will hear some guys who get the intonation correct, but the voices do not have any depth or character. Listen to the later stuff by the 'ports and you will hear Swarbrick sing like a linnet; likewise Thompson, he is now a guitarist, songwriter and vocalist of the highest order. This didn't come by putting something under the pillow and hoping a fairy would do the rest, it was persistence at the job.

Dave my advice: either import a decent singer that you all know so that the dynamics aren't disturbed by a newcomer or bite the bullet and learn to sing. The obvious candidates in the band are yourself and Jamie. It is rare to find a bass player who can play and sing well; the melodeon player will be busy supplying both rhythm and melody. That leaves you, the strummy one, and Jamie who when singing probably won't be playing the fiddle – that in itself provides some extra dynamics that makes a band who does tunes and songs more interesting. Not only that, because you two guys are probably still in the parental roost, it gives you lots of time to get some harmonies sorted outside of the band. Sing wherever you go. In the streets, in the lift, in the car, the bog, in the corridors at college, ignore the wild stares and do some sessions or floor spots as a singer; get the voice working and you might yet delight us all. Finally, resist the urge to do just funny stuff. Make sure you work hard on some powerful ballads too and then organise your set so that the audience is taken on a journey and not just exposed to a musical barrage.

Can I have your autograph now please?

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 25 May 04 - 02:07 PM

Whoops, forgot to log in!

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: michaelr
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:08 AM

"...the parental roost"? Just how young are these lads?

Heck, I didn't turn into a capable singer until my mid-thirties -- and it wasn't for lack of trying!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Peter Standing
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:57 AM

About 18 and 20 - and they are very good (mutter, mutter, mutter).

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: breezy
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM

If you want a loe key venue to experiment then come and sing at our spotlight club on sundays in St Albans, 2 songs @ per visit on a once amonth/term basis.

To a club you are already sounding more appealing - simply because you 're thinking about it, - to us die hard songaholics who do also enjoy and appreciate good musicianship for which I do respect you and your band.

You may find some fresh songs as we pride ourselves in being at the cutting edge of song writers too.

You may just enjoy what we do.

Bridges must be built, I accept that I was rather blunt before for which I do apologies for any offence caused.

Last Sunday it was a thrill to have a young fiddler augment our songs without any rehearsal.


John

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST,Chris of Matching Green!
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:30 PM

Blimey! you ppl take fings seriously. I grew up with Dave at school! he cant sing for toffee! well at least he didnt when we played footy.
Glad to see the band is going well Dave, let me know when that album is out.Is Moreton on this year? how much are tickets?

Chris S

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:04 AM

I enjoy a well played tune, but, being a "word person" I prefer singing to be the meat of the performance.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: C-flat
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:21 AM

"Heck, I didn't turn into a capable singer until my mid-thirties -- and it wasn't for lack of trying"

Exactly the same experience for me michaelr. I'm not sure wether it's simply a case of confidence coming with maturity, but I was a dreadful singer in my twenties. I'm not a good singer now but I do sing a couple of solo numbers with my band and provide harmonies where required.
My voice seems to be improving as I get older.
Can't wait to reach 50!! (not long now)

C-flat.

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: breezy
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:29 AM

When and if I shut my eyes when singing its cos Ive got the words written on the inside of my eye-lids
or
cos the audience is bereft of beauty
or
I may have fallen asleep
or
I hadnt even woken up.

come and watch on Tuesday 13th July at Cecil Sharp House.

vacancy for a fiddle player!!!!

Now its youe turn, finish the following sentence

if I sing with fingers in my ears its cos....................

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: s&r
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:37 AM

We play for Ceilidhs, and our general pattern is three tunes for dancing and a song then three more dances. This is varied according to the Audience, but the songs are often chosen to suit the occasion/audience,

Stu

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:45 AM

Dave,
I advise caution with the singing, the male voice dosn't settle into it's full adult range until around 25. My boyfriend who is a classically trained singer is 21 and says he won't sing for at least another four years. Unfortunatly he refuses to sing folk stuff when he starts again!

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: jimL
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:48 AM

Well I know some acts which are purely instrumental, smallpiper spring to mind, and what makes it acceptable is good stage presence and plenty of interesting in-between patter.

As for learning to sing, there is rafts of info on the web - and it needs as much commitment to sing well as to play an instrument well.

Important things for instrumentalists are (IMO)..
1) learn to sing *without* your instrument
2) singing, at least in folk music, is never secondary, so if you choose to do it, then on those numbers you should think of your instruments as background to the song.

Jim

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:05 AM

Some good points Jim, I think to be honest, Mawkin will be heading in the same direction as Vicki & Jonny. We need to work on our stage banter, but were getting there, ill keep my voice in check till im 24 then you guys will be sorry!!!

Subject: RE: To Sing or not to sing....
From: C-flat
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:37 PM

"ill keep my voice in check till im 24 then you guys will be sorry!!! "

Sounds like Bob Monkhouses' line..........
"They all laughed when I said i wanted to be a comedian.............
they're not laughing now!!"

C-flat.