BS: Are there really Angels?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:14 PM

brucie:

If it was wondering what held itself together it wouldn't come up with gravity.

Freda:

Pirsig's just dicking around, to put it politely. Newton's words had nothing to do with the "existence" of a law (meaning, in the absence of minds, simply a consistent behaviour in physical systems). I can promise you that kids learn about the consistent behavior of physical systems with respect to gravity a long time before they get taught about Newton or laws. Watch any kid wrestling witht he corner of a coffee table as he struggles to acheive bip[edal locomotion and you'll see the presence of a law of gravity being learned firsthand.

This does not deny that at some level, individual decisions about what will be bring about what is. But it is not as simple as Pirsig's character asserts, which is probably why (if I remember that book from 30 years ago) he ends up going mad because he can't define qualitas or some thing of that nature.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:37 PM

Amos,

Either that or Crazy Glue.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:08 PM

About twelve years ago I was involved in a head on collision with a bus at combined speeds of about 115 m.p.h. When the paramedics arrived they thought I was dead. They were about to rip out the seats of my Jeep Cherokee to get to me because they couldn't get the door open. I reached over and unlocked it for them thinking I'd rather not have my Jeep (which was unsalvagable) torn apart. I suffered an inner ear concusion, a left frontal lobe concussion, a broken wrist, a tweaked (okay so it's not a medical word)sternum, and a broken nose. Somebody was there with me. If you don't want to believe, that's okay, but I do.

As far as animals talking:

"Boy From The Country" - John Denver

Because he talked with the fish in the creek,
He tried to tell us, that the animals could speak,
And who knows, perhaps they do,
How do you know they don't, just because they haven't spoken to you

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:15 PM

The force that holds molecules together is not gravity.

It is indeed a crazy glue, though...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 04 - 02:51 PM

There is a force that holds everything together. It's the force of consciousness, directed consciousness. And even that is part of the dream that we are all dreaming in. The reason people like to define the dream is that it gives them familiar points of reference to work with. The reason people like to limit the dream is because its sheer immensity terrifies them. This is one of the reasons why some individuals don't allow angels in their version of the dream, but it's probably not the only reason. Everyone accepts the common mythology of their particular civilization and regards it as "normal", but then some people later tend to rebel against what they perceive as "normal". In doing so, they establish an alternative normality. :-) Mine includes angels and a number of other somewhat unusual things. I am confronted by mystery, and I accept it. As for the ordinary physical stuff which we all deal with, well, that is so obvious that I don't see much need to debate about it. I just like to look further than the obvious, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:03 PM

Can we get a definition, here? What do YOU mean when you say Angel? A tall, blue-eyed blond androgynous individual with white feathered wings? Until you define what one is, how can you say othat any exist, or do not exist?

If things that happen that I do not understand the cause of is the definition of an angel, then I must be in heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:07 PM

Amos

that quote wasn't meant to be a solution - just a quirky comment. yes, he goes bonkers, and also, in a few paragraphs earlier, he is arguing the complete opposite. but i was reading the book online today, and read that bit about gravity .. when i saw brucie's comments .. i couldn't resist.

angels, the universe, gravity, glue... sometimes, for whatever reason, amidst all the hard times, good things happen, wonderful things happen, there is a bend in the road and a light comes from nowhere.

I am grateful for those times, and a moment like that has just happened for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:22 PM

speaking of angels and car accidents (as was mentioned a bit above)
a few years ago I kit a ptach of gravel while trying to abvoid a cyclist - my car rolled (multiple times accoding to the witnesses - I don't remember more then a half turn

the two items I was never able to locate afterwards- a copper, brass and silver braided wristband my sister gave me "garunteed to preserve your health" - and a cross on a chain - both of which were ON MY PERSON at the time of the accident. They were both missing when I got out of the car. My watch, another wristband and a second neckpiece were all there and intact. Heck - my glasses never left my nose.

So what happened to the wristband and cross? I've always joked they evaporated keeping me safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 03:27 PM

Looking further than the obvious is great...as long as you don't fall off the edge!! Freda, magic is always welcome!! Ya gotta love it when you find it, for sure.

But consider, as regards angels that any individual is capable of constructing, using the same directed consciousness that Little Hawk refers to, an operational locus of consciosuness that acts like an endowed entity, and can use it to interfere with their own lives as though it was being done by an external entitiy.

You can make angels at need, in short. Or so it seems to me....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:28 PM

"I reached over and unlocked it for them thinking I'd rather not have my Jeep (which was unsalvagable) torn apart."

Chief Chaos, that reminds me of what my brother lamented last month after totalling his car: "I need tires for my car, and I don't have the money".

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:54 PM

Funny things is that the door opened. The damage was almost all limited to the front end. If I had been able to at the time, I would have been able to reach out from the driver seat and touch what remained of the front end. The police said I landed 150 yards back from where the impact was.

I always tell people that I won. I did $45,000.00 in damages. THe bus only got an $8000.00 jeep.

I would normally disuade most people from buying an SUV (if it isn't really needed) but aside from my angel co-pilot, I do believe the design of the Cherokee saved my life

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:49 PM

"The world has no existence whatsoever outside the human imagination."...*grin*...There is a footnote in the work of David Hume, who actually tried to promulgate a philosophy with that as a central point...he said that although he could PROVE the logical consistancy of his ideas, sometimes it just got too much for him and he found himself acting as though 'stuff' actually existed!
   He never seemed to get the point that 'logical consistency' was useless if your basic premises were faulty.

Immanuel Kant begins his major work, "Critique of Pure Reason" with the statement "There can be no doubt that all our knowlege begins with experience"

Hume begins one of his major works with an almost identical statement.....and then they go on to almost totally different conclusions!

My only real point here is that people are capable of interpreting their experiences in many ways, and notions of 'truth' and 'reality' are slippery and elusive ideas which are as much a product of superstition and wishful thinking as of careful observation and analysis.

If there really are angels and devils and gods...etc...they must be laughing hard 'up there' at our poor attempts to comprehend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:24 PM

The chicken and the egg engaged in sex. Afterwards, the chicken was smoking a cigarette. He said, "Well, I guess we've answered THAT question."

I think it is in the nature of people to believe in things beyond themselves. Perhaps it IS only a way to explain what we 'see' when we have no 'proof' for it. I may wish to argue that the computer I am typing this on doesn't exist. That then would logically conclude that no one is really out there, because if one reality is meaningless, so too are other realities. However, I'd bet bucks to doughnuts that there is another post after this one.

The fact that no one has proved the existence of angels means that no one has proved the existence of angels, not that angels don't exist. I simply know that for me they do. And I don't require proof for that belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:34 PM

Brucie...the problem is that people cannot or will not accept things which are out of their personal framework. Unless they experience it then it does not exist...It has to be proved to them beyond a shadow of a doubt.....It will also make them suspect you of fabrication because they have not tasted what you have. I can truly believe because I hear what you are saying and because of my own beliefs I believe what you are saying...because of my own experiences I believe you.
Let's just leave the others to their thoughts,whether positive or negative, and get on with things ourselves.
Because of my personal experiences I also believe that Jesus came as Saviour to the world....but there will be many out there who have not tasted my Jesus also and will dispute the truth as I know it because they have been taught to believe otherwise or they doubt as Thomas did and will only accept it if they meet Him for real.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:46 PM

There was a faith-healer named Neal
Who avowed, "Although pain is not real,
"If I sit on a pin,
"And it punctures my skin,
"I dislike what I fancy I feel!"

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:07 PM

Yep, I'm with you guys, and with Bill D. He is one smart sonuvagun, and I appreciate his answers and arguments. I don't know if he's an angel or not, but he oughta be.

Today I received a beautiful comment from GUEST on another thread. I have just had a week from hell, and I figured nothing would get me 'up' for a while. Well, whoever that angel is, the words (about six of them) gave me a whole new perspective on things. Funny how the smallest thing can create great change.

Later,

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:49 AM

Ahh...y' want definitions of "Angels", do you? Well, I can only offer mine, and it's a necessarily incomplete definition.

The Angels I am familiar with appear to be: Spiritual beings of a very powerful sort, but most likely not physical beings. Whether they can manifest physically at all in this reality I don't know. They appear to somehow embody both genders seamlessly, but in a way that is quite subtle, not obvious. I suspect that they appear somewhat differently to different people anyway, since they are interpreted through the witness's own consciousness and cultural expectations...which probably affects what the witness sees. They appear to be very strong-minded and positive in their intentions. They suggest immortality strongly to me. They speak inside your mind, but you "hear" them anyway, as if with the ears. They sing magnificently. They are clothed in light. It can appear as a sort of shimmering clothing. I saw long robes, silvery white. I'm not quite sure about the wings. I figure that some people will see wings and others won't. The wings are a symbol, a visual metaphor. They (Angels) appear to serve a higher power and to be protectors and guides for humanity. They have tremendous focus of will and tremendous compassion. Whether there are "dark" angels, I don't know. I certainly haven't seen any. I have seen one Angel of Light and I have heard the distant singing of others on a handful of occasions.

I don't expect anyone to necessarily believe that. Your beliefs are your own business, and are probably appropriate to your own life path.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:57 AM

Your beliefs are your own business, and are probably appropriate to your own life path.


That's a tautological statement if I ever read one, LH!! :>) I mean, considering that one's life path is made up of nothing else but one's beliefs.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:27 AM

Or non-beliefs??????. We are each shaped by our experiences....those who experience, can claim those experiences..those who don't can't.
Some find it possible to believe without proof and some won't believe unless they have definitive proof. That's life!!!
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:49 AM

My Holiday Angel looked like a slightly balding middle-aged man.

My friend's Angel looks like a little old Chinese man wearing a conical hat. (She is blind, and therefore her description was even more interesting due to her only having seen him in her mind's eye.)

Another friend's Angels are just the voices in his brain that help him make important decisions, and lead him away from danger.

Yet another friend described her Angel as being 9 feet tall, with long red hair and a smile that made her cry.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:06 AM

tautological statements abound!

Redundant tautological statements!

Metetricious, redundant, tautological statements....

Metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements...

Gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements...

Efflusive, gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements..

and sometimes, pusillanimous, efflusive, gratuitous, metetricious, redundant, jejune, tautological statements..


also a few that are just plain silly.... ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:14 AM

Here's an interesting little "angelic" coincidence - last summer at the Rolling Stones concert in Toronto, my friend Don had a wonderful experience. He'd waited for an hour to meet his son at a pre-arranged time and place in the park, but the son didn't show. Worried, Don spent the next hour wandering through the crowd of half a million people in the sweltering heat searching for him. No go.

Ready to give up he headed back to the original meeting-place - and en route he passed by a hot miserable-looking toddler. The child was sitting in a little plastic wading pool, but there was no water in it. Water was at quite the premium that day, and no one seemed willing to give up their precious supply to fill that wading pool. So Don poured his last two bottles of water into the pool, much to the child's relief and delight.

No sooner had he done that but he turned around - and there was his son and girlfriend standing right behind him!

Now this may or may not have anything to do with "angels", but I just love what's implied here -- when you act like an "angel" by giving something of yourself to help another, it seems like you attract the same loving attentions to yourself -- and your own needs and desires are met too!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:26 AM

Bill D perhaps your views on angels might have been useful if you had been able to give any but your criticism has been noted including it's repetitive content..repetitive content...repetitive content...repe.....Perhaps you should find a thread where you have an opinion on the thread itself. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:57 AM

I married one!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:32 PM

Knowing that there's angels and actually proving it are two different things. I know there are but you can't disprove it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:07 PM

Nor is there any point trying to...

You could say the same about love, compassion, and any number of other intriguing things.

I talk about Angels because I find them very interesting, not because I need to prove they exist.

Bill, cease these crapulous, rambling attempts to stick darts in a target that is not physical in the first place. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:20 PM

Of course there are angels....you meet them every day, without realising it....treat everyone as though they are an angel and you will win respect...with love to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:00 PM

I typed a long, friendly reply to Little Hawk and Georgiansilver, but Muscat did its daily crash, and I lost it.. ;>(

the part to LH said...

"yassuh, Boss!...(but iffen they ain't physical, they wont feel it, will they? ;>)"

the other part I 'may' try to re-create....but maybe not..

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 09:26 PM

Damn! Annoying as hell, isn't it, Bill? I now block and save my longer dissertations before hitting "submit".

By the way, I used the word "crapulous" just for fun, having discovered it today in the dictionary. It comes from "crapulence", meaning: gross drunkenness

What a great word! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:16 PM

Ya know, it is very hard to say what the nature of being is, especially if you start entertaining these seditious notions that it may be a variable independent of the physical form of the body. Some folks believe there are actually multiple planes of being and there are various kinds of situations in play depending on the level you are viewing.

Here's what an executive at a large comapny wrote me recently:

It may sound wacky, but enough other things have turned out to be true that I can't dismiss the explanation.
>>
>> In short, there are many planes of existence that intersect here on Earth.
>> There are beings on every plane, and they all have a role to play in a
>> larger cosmic scheme--but that doesn't mean they are all benevolent.
>>
>> Some beings are mischievous; others are downright hostile
>> (counter-evolutionary). When they pick up on a person who desires
>something
>> deeply, they pose as the object of that desire. They subsequently use
>their   influence for sport (or worse).
>>
>> What we think of as personality is transitory. It is a very superficial
>> layer of our being and the first one to dissolve upon death; and it is
>very   rare for a "soul" to have any memories of previous life experiences. So,
>> when people think they are contacting a "departed soul," they are usually
>> being toyed with by another type of being altogether.

I have no opinion about his conclusions, but it is interesting to note the perspective he is communicating.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:24 AM

If you take the Christian perspective..The world has God and devil or good and evil. satan and his followers control all the evil...tempt people into whatever and God and His angels provide all the good. Taking that on board..then the "departed souls" and the "mischevious beings" mentioned above are satan or a demon who is misleading people.
Makes a good case for there really being angels I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:46 PM

Interesting letter, Amos. I do think there are some mischievous entities out there in the Astral, all right, giving people false messages via Ouija board, seance, and so on. One has to use careful judgement when it comes to this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 04 - 05:42 PM

Well. I feel better. Yesterday I had another encounter that affirms for me the existence of angels and people who are instruments.

I live in a house museum and this is the time of year when I'm open to tourists. I serve Russian Tea and Sourdough cookies (biscuits) and we sit around and chat, usually about history, but the talk sometimes ranges far afield. I meet people from literally all over the world.

The last few months, as probably shows on the Mudcat, I have gotten steadily more depressed and angry at the state of this country and in fearing what this autumn may bring. Each further revelation of violence and corruption brought me greater despair.

But today this man from Ohio (Spaw??) came into the museum and within a few sentences I was aware of being in for a memorable learning experience. He is a self-described Spiritualist, comfortable in his knowledge while anticipating further growth. He said he is no longer an "infant" but is definitely still in the "toddler" stage. He said he wasn't planning to go walking in Juneau, especially on these steep hills, but he was "told" to go so he went, and when he came to this house he was told to come in.

His message to me was that I need to understand and accept that what is happening is what must be and that the way I can affect its outcome is looking to myself. When I look to keeping myself centered in love, not steeped in fear, (which he said is what the government is living in) that joins with others who are doing the same thing and together we WILL change things. (I told him that the problem is that he is advocating the use of a stiletto while my instinct is to use a HAMMER.)

We talked for two hours and my stomach is relaxed and happy again. As our illustrious leader once said: Bring 'em on!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:38 PM

He is correct, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:45 AM

Thankee, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:34 AM

Bill D

apart from your crapulous comments above, your comments are always extremely incisive, well argued and persuasive. They make sense.

its just that when it goes to anything remotely intangible, I have had experiences which tell me something different. It doesn't stop me from admiring your brain. but I also highly value the moements I've been lucky enough to experience.

bruce's account of dying on the operating table was very moving. for me, it shows why life is so amazing,and so hard.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:26 AM

Ebbie:

A wonderful story!!

I love the occasional opportunity Ihave to just do as my higher instincts (or whatever you wish to call them) indicate. Doesn't happen as often as I would like.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:43 AM

I love reading these personal accounts. Brave of some of you to give them in spite of the sceptics out there.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Lovechild
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:09 PM

Angels are all over the place. My mums life was saved by one when she fell over the edge of a cliff. She found herslef on the beach without a mark on her but thought she must have blacked out as she couldn't remember how she got there. She swears it must be an angel that saved her as theres rocks under the cliff and she cant have fallen on them or she would have been dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:38 PM

I know the following is contrived and puerile but I can't help thinking that the point being made is one worth making:
"We are each of us angels with only one wing, and we can only fly by embracing one another."
Luciano de Crescenzo

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:51 PM

Actually, I think we are Angels in the making...

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:16 PM

I think you have that one pegged, LH. I hope so, anyway. BillD has got one whoppin' surprise in store. BG

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:43 PM

Yeah, Bruce. I can see it now...

Bill - This must be a mistake. I'm dead.

Angels - No, Bill, you're perfectly all right.

Bill - Uh, uh. I'm history. Once you die that's it.

Angels - Then how do you explain this conversation you're having with us, Bill?

Bill - I figure it's just random firing of the last few fading neurons, that's all, before the final darkness of oblivion.

Angels - How long would that random firing go on then?

Bill - Ummm...my guess is it's gonna stop any second now.

(Much much later....)

Angels - Well, Bill?

Bill - There has got to be a mistake here. When "you is dead, you is dead, and there ain't no mo'". I know that for a fact. When I fell into that industrial trash compactor and got turned into hamburger patties it was curtains. I am gone, kaput, defunct, no more. I'm toast.

Angels - You are the funniest guy we've seen yet, Bill! Don't think we aren't glad to make your acquaintance. Now let's see...does anyone have a copy of the "Skeptics Bible" handy? We'd like to point out a few inconsistencies and see what you think, Bill, seeing as how you seem to be an expert. Now, look at this passage right here...

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:51 PM

And now, from beautiful downtown Valhalla . . . .

Back to you, Bill. (Good cartoon by the way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:53 PM

perfect, LH & brucie!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 May 04 - 11:51 AM

I `ad "Old Nick" in my cab the other day. I said, what do you make of all them angels then? `e said, they`re not all cracked up what they`re supposed to be, wicked little blighters. I said, what do you mean? `e said, where do you think all the "dust" comes from then??
What am I like??

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:45 PM

*big grin*....as I said before, it aint fair. If I AM right, I don't even get to say "I told you so!" If I DO get to have that conversation with the angels or other higher powers, I hope to get some answers to questions I have been puzzled about for years.

"Um..which one of you were supposed to be on duty the night my friend Tom Nyberg was run over from behind by a truck while he was stopped at a stop sign?"

about cartoons...one of my favorites was an old Mutt & Jeff cartoon from MANY years ago. Little Jeff comes running into the bar where Mutt & buddies are, saying:

"Hey, guys...you know old crippled Jake? Well, he just took a drink from the Fountain of Faith and threw his crutches away!"

"Wow!", says Mutt, "Where is he now?"

"Flat on his back out in the alley!"

....with a few tweaks, it could be made to fit many situations we discuss here, though we all know that humor doesn't prove anything either way. And of course, you'd never see a cartoon like that from Jonny Hart, who draws "B.C." ;>)

the whole point is that stories of people who pray, plead, hope and perhaps deserve, intervention from various "higher powers", and do NOT get help are not good news and usually not even known about. Those who are inclined (through personal experience or trust in others) to accept 'miracles' don't usually like discussions about why it doesn't work more often. 'Taint no easy explanation, hmmm?

sorry, I just can't deal with "Well, who are WE to comprehend the ways of 'higher beings'. That's just the way it works."

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:02 PM

LOL! I like the one about the crutches.

I think most people get what they want, Bill, but only what they want at the subconscious level, that is...and it may be hard to figure out what's going on at their subconscious level.

Example: You may have a guy who is fixated on being a big success in business, and yet he keeps screwing up and losing his money. Consciously he wants very much to succeed, yet subconsciously (if one were to look into it) he's acting out a much different scenario...namely, the notion that "I'll always be a failure no matter how hard I try, because the world is cruel and unfair and other people are untrustworthy." So the "angels", so to speak, are giving him exactly what he believes in...failure...as long as he keeps believing in it.

That's just one of a million possible examples of how we short-circuit our best laid plans in this life.

As to why your friend got run over...who knows? There could be a million different reasons for that too, aside from just plain old "bad luck" which I don't believe in, but lots of people do.

Like I said, death ain't so bad...but it's hard on those who are left behind without a good explanation, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Gypsyfree
Date: 28 May 04 - 02:57 PM

When my children were young one of them was suddenly taken ill while out walking in the countryside. I didn't know the area and as we were on the moors houses were few and far between. I picked her up and began to run in the direction I thought would be the best bet, but I was seemingly getting nowhere. A young man approached and just took her. It all happened so fast I didn't have time to react. He ran in a different direction to the one I was taking but we were able to keep up with him, how I don't know. When we came to a cottage he handed her back and knocked on the door. A woman answered and as we stepped inside I turned to thank the young man but he was gone. The woman was a district nurse and she was able to do the neccessary. When I asked her if she saw where the young man went she looked at me funny...she had seen no one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there really Angels?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:17 PM

From Hart when he was part of the team that did the Wizard of Id:

"Who goes there?"
"William the Conqueror."
"State your business."
"I just did!"