Coming Round Which Mountain?

Subject: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 18 Oct 98 - 05:41 AM

On searching the database with happy confidence for chapter and verse for

She'll be coming round the mountain

I was startled only to find

YE CANNA SHOVE YER GRANNIE

Talk about Celtic bias!

Can anyone help with
a) info / source for 'She'll be coming'
b) American origins for 'granny' verses to this tune?

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Barbara
Date: 18 Oct 98 - 08:07 AM

I don't know if there's much information there, Ewan, but the song itself is called "Coming 'Round the Mountain", and it's in the database. See that dinky little apostrophe in front of 'round'? I bet that's why your search didn't find it. Computers are finicky that way. I used [red rooster] and it came right up.
Along with Dick's rule about avoiding proper names (because if you don't misspell them, the person who submitted the tune probably will have), I also avoid words that could be abbreviated. Words like old (ol'; ole) and anything ending in 'ing'.
Hope that helps.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: Lyr Add: SHE'LL BE COMING 'ROUND THE MOUNTAIN
From: snookums
Date: 18 Oct 98 - 09:40 AM

The version I am used to hearing is slightly different and likely is more about a female visitor:

1. She'll be coming 'round the mountain when she comes.

2. She'll be driving 6 white horses when she comes.

3. Oh we'll all go to meet her when she comes.

4. Oh we'll kill the old red rooster when she comes
Yes we'll kill the old red rooster when she comes,
Oh we'll kill the old red rooster,
He won't crow like he used to
Oh we'll kill the old red rooster when she comes.

5. We'll have chicken and dumplings when she comes.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 19 Oct 98 - 05:50 AM

Barbara & Snookums

Many thanks for lyrics and tips.

Best regards

Ewan

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Oct 98 - 07:58 PM

How would I know which mountain? Coul be Pike's Peak! Could be the Matterhorn! Could be Everest! Could be,,,

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From:
Date: 19 Oct 98 - 09:00 PM

It must be a mountain by the sea, or next to a plain. Otherwise, it would not be necessary to refer to the route of travel of the Mysterious "She" whose arrival is so anxiously anticipated. Therefore, it must be a mountain in Alberta or Cape Breton Island, and She is arriving via a mountain pass rather than taking the route across the plain or by landing by ship.

One suspects that the She is a Sinister She, or even a Deceased She, since outside of aristocratic lands hearses were normally the only conveyance drawn by six white horses. Perhaps they are planning for the funeral or the wake of She, somewhere in Alberta or Cape Breton Island.:)

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 03:37 AM

On the basis that all songs start off somewhere, somebody might well know what route she first traversed. Lots of songs began localised, and lots more began without a locality involved, then one was added.

I had not thought about the possibility of this being a supernatural arrival, perhaps a revenant. However, that would explain why instead of killing a plump hen to feed her, the king of the bunch, beloved of voodoo ritual, is being sacrificed to her!

Interesting.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 05:32 AM

Art

I thought I should explain myself a little more.

Often a song is made with an initial localising or personality naming verse. The song gets popular, and the first thing to get dropped is the initial overspecific verse.

It is not impossible that this happened with Coming Round The Mountain.

If so, someone might have noted the original in an old [or new] publication.

For example, a 1963 book explained for me the other day the context of a Scots kids' song I've known and used for 40 years, and at the same time linked the song to one that the New Lost City Ramblers recorded, so the song has a far wider context than I'd ever realised.

One the other hand, you may know this sort of thing well, and be complaining about the nature of my thread heading? Just a way of asking a question in, I thought, an interesting way.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 05:34 AM

I should have said above that it was the appearance in the 1963 book of a new 'first' verse preceding those widely known and recorded for the song that gave the explanation and link.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 09:39 AM

I don't know which mountain but I'll agree that Pike's Peak is a good candidate. 'She' would have had to 'come around' Pikes Peak to get to Cripple Creek during the gold rush. From the plains at Colorado Springs up through Ute Pass or along Gold Camp road.

Doug of Colorado! come in here and confirm this.

Bert

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Alix
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 08:11 PM

I would strongly suspect Mountain Dew. Look, she's driving 6 white horses- obviously her license has been revoked for too many OWI's. She's wearing pink pajamas and huffing and puffing. I'd suggest she bypass the mountain all together and head straight for the Betty Ford Clinic.

Snookums (no- not alix, no matter what my cookie has to say about it)

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 09:31 PM

Oh,.......Now I understand!

Fun speculation. Close, but no cigar.('Tweren't Monica drivin' them horses.)

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: dulcimer
Date: 20 Oct 98 - 10:16 PM

I heard the song is about MA Jones going to promote union organization in the coal mining camps in the Appalachians. I think she also organized in cities. At first the railroads, who also owned the mines or vise versa, let her ride, often for free she because she was an old lady. But when she became so popular, they refused her passage. So she had to sometimes find other means--horses--to get into the camps--must have been some travel on those mountain roads. Taking a more interpretative view of the song. White horses for much of our mythology have been the mode of travels for heros or heroines. And in rural poor American, a chicken dinner was often a luxury, reserved for Sunday, especially if the preacher or some other important person were coming. A chicken may have been the best meat available and such a dinner would have been a sign of respect. I hope someone else can either add to or correct this brief reply.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN THE CHARIOT COMES
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Oct 98 - 07:46 PM

In American Songbag (1927), Carl Sandburg says:

an old-time Negro spiritual, "When the Chariot Comes," was made by mountaineers into "She'll Be Comin' Round the Mountain," and the song spread to railroad work gangs in the Midwest U.S. in the 1890's.

When the Chariot Comes
O, who will drive the chariot when she comes?
O, who will drive the chariot when she comes?
O, who will drive the chariot when she comes?
O, who will drive the chariot when she comes?

2. King Jesus, he'll be driver when she comes.

3. She'll be loaded with bright angels when she comes.

4. She will neither rock nor totter when she comes.

5. She will run so level and steady when she comes.

6. She will take us to the portals when she comes.

Gee, and I thought it was just a silly children's song...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Ewan McV
Date: 22 Oct 98 - 05:58 PM

Two brilliant pieces of material!

Thanks indeed, Dulcimer and Joe.

I think I need to add both accounts to the tale of Canny Shove Yer Granny in a book Im at work, with the tentative title of: Why Is It All Right To Shove Your Other Granny?

Dulcimer - what copyright credit / acknowledgement do you want, if I do? (I don't think I can stretch to an actual cash payment, however.)Or, can you quote me a source re your account of MA Jones?

Mail me direct at [e-mail] if you like.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 98 - 03:17 PM

Folklore is something like what Mark Twain said about science: (to paraphrase) I love it. You can reap such a huge harvest of speculation from such a tiny bit of fact.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 98 - 04:12 PM

Dick,
That's what makes it so much fun.
Now, whenever I sing it, I can swear that the "Mountain" is really Pike's Peak.
Bert.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Oct 98 - 10:20 PM

Joe, would this the relation of "Roll The Old Chariot Along", looks like it might be. Barry

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 02:32 AM

Barry, the first I hear of the relation between "Chariot" and "Comin' Round the Mountain" was when I read that passage I posted from Sandburg's American Songbag. I guess it boils down to whether you believe Carl Sandburg or Dick Greenhaus....
So, Dick, did I twist your words bad enough???
-Joe Offer-

(wicked grin)

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Snookums
Date: 24 Oct 98 - 03:29 AM

I still buy the theory that it was Grandma coming to visit and she was sauced. Snookums

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Philip Hudson
Date: 26 Oct 98 - 10:07 PM

My grandmothers both told me that "she" was the new "school marm" and the mountain was in Appalachia and the "six white horses" were symbolic of the high esteem in which teachers were held. The red rooster and the chicken and dumplins were literal. I'm sold on this one. But the other ones can be true to. After all, it is a folk song. - Philip Hudson

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:39 PM

I watched a small portion of the opening cermonies of the Olympics, tonight. At one point they sang this song and the commentator said it was an old railroad song. I had never heard that, so I went looking on the Mudcat. Sure enough I found my answer and found I was right in thinking it had been around before the railroads. Thanks, Mudcatters!

kat

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 11:43 PM

Well kat, on the plus side they did at least sing Stephen Foster's "Hard Times." They could have dispensed with that pissant Robbie Robertson though during the Native American segment. Now though, since it was pronounced by Bob Costas on NBC this now MUST be an old railroad song.........cracked me up. The best part was the Olympic flag being carried by one helluva' group of admirable people.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM

"When the Chariot Comes" came into print in 1899 according to the Traditional Song Index (cufresno); one authority quoted there (Fuld)says he knows of no printing of "She'll be Coming Round the Mountain" before Sandburg in 1927. The song was sung by children in my primary school in the 1930s and certainly was known to my grandparents, who probably never heard of Sandburg.
Joe Offer's speculation is one I can agree with, until more evidence is found.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM

I see no controversy here at all. The mountain is obviously Camelback Mountain in Scottsdale, Arizona. But it's on the border of Phoenix and Scottsdale, so ...

DougR

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:58 AM

I always thought it was the Sierry Petes

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:01 AM

A good old 78 by H. M. Barnes and his Blue Ridge Ramblers is on honkingduck.com. Brunswick 310. Hawaiian steel guitar in the background. Date?

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:03 AM

Why is Robbie Robertson a pissant?....just curious. I have never heard of him before ...although I thoughly enjoyed that segment.

LL

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:18 AM

I didn't see most of it, Spaw, but I would have preferred if we'd heard a LOT more of the Native American drums and chants than the performers on stage, even though I really like Walela. The whole thing struck me as just one big, over-commercialised American history extravaganza which had nothing to do with sports.

I was also appalled that they used Hard Times! I LOVE the song, but it didn't seem appropriate for what should be a time of upbeat fun. Bah, humbug...I hate what they've made of the Olympics.:-)

katkurmudgeon

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN THE CHARIOT COMES
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:20 AM

The first known printing of "When the Chariot Comes" had appeared in Barton's New England Magazine article (Feb. 1899), before it was incorporated into his Old Plantation Hymns (1899). The article is reprinted in Bernard Katz, ed., The Social Implications of Early Negro Music (Arno/The New York Times, 1969; the song is on p. 117, with music). Substantially a related tune.

WHEN THE CHARIOT COMES

1.
O who will drive the chariot when she cu-hu-hu-hu-hums?
O who will drive the chariot when she comes?
O who will drive the chariot? O who will drive the chariot?
O who will drive the chariot when she comes?

2.
King Jesus, he'll be driver, when she cu-hu-hu-hu-hums, etc.

3.
She'll be loaded with bright angels, etc.

4.
She will neither rock not totter, etc.

5.
She will run so level and steady, etc.

6.
She will take us to the portills, etc.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:42 AM

Kat, I thought "Hard Times" went well with the western theme. The song was carried west with the pioneers, and was a special favorite with the Mormons. Did you notice the hand cart? Thousands went west pushing a handcart, mostly Mormons, many fresh from Europe, althouth we always think of the covered wagon.
"She'll be Coming...", on the other hand does not go back to pioneer days, so that would be anachronistic.
Times are a-changing. The music played onstage is now heard regularly at the Indian get-to-gathers. Buffy St. Marie was one of those who started this. I, too, prefer the old plains drumming and singing, but that has become homogenized- tribal distinctions have been lost. The same is true of the costumes which no longer can be called tribal regalia.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:44 AM

Kat...did you not catch the very end when they portrayed the different stages of a figure skater that eventually ended up at the Olympics and won her metal? Several skaters portrayed the different ages and levels of skill. I thought the story line from the beginning depicting the different animals of the land, then the First Nations People, the Pioneers and finally the society of today, was brilliant. I tend to look at these things from a behind the scenes point of view...the costumes, production and timing of the whole event was wonderful. IMO.

LL

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:57 AM

Was not the tribal distinction shown when each of the five Utah Nations delivered their blessings to the altheletes in their own tongue, and dressed in their own ceremonial clothing? Am I confused here ... ? Where I come from the native dress of the many tribes are quite different from each other and are very authentic.

LL

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 05:11 AM

When she started out, she was coming 'round the molehill...

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM

Compare the "native" clothing worn in the ceremony with the native clothing of the same groups in museum collections, old photographs and drawings from pre-1900; then with similar materials from the 1900-1930 period, then with the way the Indians were dressed for the ceremony. The homogenation is evident.
This is not to say that some Indians do not strive to maintain tribal characteristics. Nor can it be said that there was no commerce among the tribes; there was a lot that has been documented for the pre-Columbian as well as later periods. Some groups had "rendezvous" like the one portrayed for the pioneers; I am only familiar with the San Fernando Festival held at Taos Pueblo on Sept. 30 (opened to others about 1880?). I have a collection of old photographs taken by photographers (my grandmother was one) between 1900-1905 of people at the Festival, at which members of various Plains tribes, from as far away as Montana, among others, attended. Beadwork and dress seen in these photos and others still has distinctive patterns (but, of course, the Pendleton blanket was already very popular among all the groups).

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: GUEST,SAEBAA
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 05:19 PM

THERE ARE LYRICS TO 3-4 SONGS I NEED. CLEMENTINE, SHE WILL BE COMING AROUND THE MOUNTAIN-IF SHE COMES, SUGAR IN THE MORINING-SUGAR IN THE EVENING-SUGAR AT SUPPERTIME

THANKS FOR ANY HELP

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Stewie
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 06:22 PM

Dicho, you asked for the date of the H.M. Barnes' Blue Ridge Ramblers recording. It was recorded in New York City on 28 January 1929 when the band cut 9 sides. Its only other recording session was the following day when it cut a further 5 sides. H.M. 'Hank' Barnes led the string band that toured the vaudeville circuit. Barnes was not himself a musician, but gave his name to the group and booked them.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 08:27 PM

Thanks, Stewie. I was guessing about 1930, but I wasn't sure.
Saebaa, there are several versions of Clementine in the DT. Just type Clementine in the blank under Digitrad and Forum Search.
When you get that one, type She'll be comin', or Comin' 'round the mountain, in the same space.
I couldn't find Sugar... , but it ought to be there?

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 08:56 PM

Not on the forum or in the DT...


SUGARTIME
Sugar in the morning
Sugar in the evening
Sugar at suppertime
Be my little sugar
And love me all the time

Honey in the morning
Honey in the evening
Honey at suppertime
So by my little honey
And love me all the time

Put your arms around me
And swear by stars above
You'll be mine forever
In a heaven of love

Sugar in the morning
Sugar in the evening
Sugar at suppertime
Be my little sugar
And love me all the time

Now Sugartime
Is anytime
That you're near
'Cause you're so dear
So don't you roam
Just be my honeycomb
And live
In a heaven of love.

Sugar in the morning
Sugar in the evening
Sugar at suppertime
Be my little sugar
And love me all the time

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:21 PM

SAEBAA,

"Sugar in the morning" you're asking for, I believe, is "Sugartime," sung by the the McGuire Sisters in 1950s. Their singing and lyrics are HERE.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:50 AM

A searching tip about missin' final "g"s---comin* will get you both spellings.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 11:01 PM

Ernest Phipps' OLD SHIP OF ZION (from The Roots Music Listening Room) is a variant of "When the Chariot Comes." Country Music Resources says that "She'll Be Coming Around the Mountain" was "Adapted from 'Old Ship Of Zion', comp. 1876, or 'When the Chariot Comes', comp. 1899." (p. 535)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 12:52 AM



The Long Steel Rail, The Railroad in American Folksong Norm Cohen, University of Illinois Press, Chicago, 1981, p.40-41.

"How many railroad songs have, been written? This question is impossible to answer, not only because the documentation at hand is so scant, but also because the notion of a "railroad song" is ill defined...."

"Ever since Sandburg wrote that "['She'll Be coming around the Mountain'] spread to railroad work gangs in the midwest in teh 1890's," it has been included in collections of railroad songs. As Lomax graphically described it, the song "catches the jubilation of the halcyon day when the first steam engine came whistling and snorting into a horse-and-buggy town on the prairies. Nevertheless, I have resisted including it here because I do not consider it a railroad song, except during the very earliest years of railroading, no whistling, snorting steam engine ever puffed into town while "driving six white horese," as every version of the song states."

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 07:18 AM

Not wishing to muddy the 'cats water but with with words like coming and mountain I favour the view that there is not a little hint of irony here. IMOHO

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: GUEST,jimmy mac
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 02:39 AM

I can clear up the controversy. The song was written about cooke city montana at the ne entrance of yellowstone park and the six white horses were the old coach horses of yellowstone !

Subject: Add: Going Back With Jesus (origin Coming Rnd/Mtn?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 04:20 PM

On Rounder CD1137, available from CAMSCO:

A Warrior on the Battlefield
a capella Trail Blazers: 1920'2 - 1940's
[Black "Barbershop" Quartets]

Tune is a bluesy variant of the tune used for Coming Round the Mountain. Origin? Chicken or egg?

~S~

========================================================

GOING BACK WITH JESUS
As recorded by Heavenly Gospel Singers Charlotte, Feb 16, 1937


Yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes)
Yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes).

Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes)
Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes).

I'll be on my knees a-praying when He comes (Lord when He comes)
I'll be on my knees a-praying when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes).

I'll be singing Hallelujah when He comes (Lord when He comes)
I'll be singing Hallelujah when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes).

Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes)
Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes

I'll be waiting for King Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes)
I'll be waiting for King Jesus when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes).

Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes)
Oh yes, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (my Lord)
I'll be standing at the station with my ticket in my hand
Oh, I'm going back with Jesus when He comes (Lord when He comes

Comes, comes, comes, coooooooooomesssss..........


SH

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 03 - 06:09 PM

The tune of both comes from the old gospel (spiritual?) "When the Chariot Comes," printed 1899, if not some earlier song that is not identified. Posted in this thread by Masato (09 Feb 02) and by Richie in thread 4947, 13 Nov 02.
Possibly the tune is descended from one of the variants of "Ship of Zion," Sacred Harp (?) and old spirituals, but this is strictly speculative.

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From:
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 03:27 AM

I NEED THE CHORDS TO THIS SONG. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ MUSIC, SO IF YOU ANYONE COULD TELL ME HOW IT GOES I WOULD APPRECIATE...

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From:
Date: 23 Jan 04 - 03:40 AM

Surely SHE was a train and the 6 WHITE HORSES was the steam the PINK PYJAMAS the fire etc.,

Subject: RE: Coming Round Which Mountain?
From: GUEST,DavidInLondon (guest)
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 08:14 PM

Don't suppose anyone is allowed to write out the chords, wesriggins, for copyright reasons - although of course this song is in the Public Domain (I think, but you Americans have very weird copyright laws...). If you find a copy of Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms - it uses the same chords.

Aw heck, so sue me:

G|G|G|G|
G|G|D7|D7|
G|G7|C|C|
G|D7|G|G|

If you want a slightly jazzier version, insert a Csharp diminished chord in the 12th bar. Yee hah!

David