a Python speaks

Subject: a Python speaks
From: harvey andrews
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 09:02 AM

This won't hurt much

Terry Jones
Wednesday June 16, 2004
The Guardian

For some time now, I've been trying to find out where my son goes after choir practice. He simply refuses to tell me. He says it's no business of mine where he goes after choir practice and it's a free country.

Now it may be a free country, but if people start going just anywhere they like after choir practice, goodness knows whether we'll have a country left to be free. I mean, he might be going to anarchist meetings or Islamic study groups. How do I know?

The thing is, if people don't say where they're going after choir practice, this country is at risk. So I have been applying a certain amount of pressure on my son to tell me where he's going. To begin with I simply put a bag over his head and chained him to a radiator. But did that persuade him? Does the Pope eat kosher?

My wife had the gall to suggest that I might be going a bit too far. So I put a bag over her head and chained her to the radiator. But I still couldn't persuade my son to tell me where he goes after choir practice.

I tried starving him, serving him only cold meals and shaving his facial hair off, keeping him in stress positions, not turning his light off, playing loud music outside his cell door - all the usual stuff that any concerned parent will do to find out where their child is going after choir practice. But it was all to no avail.

I hesitated to gravitate to harsher interrogation methods because, after all, he is my son. Then Donald Rumsfeld came to my rescue.

I read in the New York Times last week that a memo had been prepared for the defence secretary on March 6 2003. It laid down the strictest guidelines as to what is and what is not torture. Because, let's face it, none of us want to actually torture our children, in case the police get to hear about it.

The March 6 memo, prepared for Mr Rumsfeld explained that what may look like torture is not really torture at all. It states that: if someone "knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith".

What this means in understandable English is that if a parent, in his anxiety to know where his son goes after choir practice, does something that will cause severe pain to his son, it is only "torture" if the causing of that severe pain is his objective. If his objective is something else - such as finding out where his son goes after choir practice - then it is not torture.

Mr Rumsfeld's memo goes on: "a defendant" (by which he means a concerned parent) "is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his control".

Couldn't be clearer. If your intention is to extract information, you cannot be accused of torture.

In fact, the report went further. It said, if a parent "has a good-faith belief [that] his actions will not result in prolonged mental harm, he lacks the mental state necessary for his actions to constitute torture". So all you've got to do to avoid accusations of child abuse is to say that you didn't think it would cause any lasting harm to the child. Easy peasy!

I currently have a lot of my son's friends locked up in the garage, and I'm applying electrical charges to their genitals and sexually humiliating them in order to get them to tell me where my son goes after choir practice.

Dick Cheney's counsel, David S Addington, says that's just fine. William J Haynes, the US defence department's general counsel, agrees it's just fine. And so does the US air force general counsel, Mary Walker.

In fact, practically everybody in the US administration seems to think it's just fine, except for the state department lawyer, William H Taft IV, who perversely claims that I might be opening the door to people applying electrical charges to my genitals and sexually humiliating me.

So I'm going to round up all the children in the neighbourhood, chain them and set dogs on them. I might accidentally kill one or two - but I won't have intended to - and perhaps I'll take some photos of my wife standing on the dead bodies, and then I'll show the photos to the other kids, and finally, perhaps, I might get to find out where my son goes after choir practice. After all, I'll only be doing what the US administration has been condoning since 9/11.

· Terry Jones is a writer, film director, actor and Python

terry-jones.net

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:32 AM

I'd congratulate Terry Jones' son on the fact that he goes to choir practice. These days most children of a musical bent want to be instrumentalists - singing has very low street-cred.

On the other hand, if his son gets up to some of the things that I did after choir practice . . . . .

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:46 AM

Another Python also spoke (sang) recently;

Eric Idle's song at http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3

SRS

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:48 AM

'prap said Pythonette wanrts a choir(t) night out.............

I'll get me cassock and surplas.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:47 PM

Why oh why would I care what a couple of long-washed-up commedians have to say on the subject of politics?

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: GUEST,v
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:19 PM

Perhaps you are unaware that they both have good degrees from a top English university, spent some of their youth involved in comedy, (very succesfully) and, in some of their cases have gone back to writing and research. Plus everyone is entitled to express their political beliefs. Isn't that why we're in the current mess in Iraq - trying to enforce that right on the local populace. You could also argue who gives a shit about the political or religious beliefs of washed up folkies but they all inflict them on us.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:20 PM

You cared enough to read it and reply, CH;-) Beats me why. Especially as it was printed in that red rag of a broadsheet, the Guardian. It's not as if it appeared on the Daily Torygraph, for chrissake - then it would have all the cred required to wrap one's cod and chips in.

Still... it's an interesting parallel. And those who know the REAL truth (i.e. that such a paper was never prepared for Rumbum and he didn't know of its existence) will not be swayed by the eloquence of a washed up comedian. Because washed up comedians are not to be believed. If they were washed up actors, perhaps...

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:23 PM

So much for the "alternative" element in folk, eh, GUEST,v?
I've seen better fossils in my rock garden.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:03 PM

I'm interested in their opinions on the subject about as much as I'm interested in anyone elses...

Which is to say, not at all...

People who talk about politics like it matters make me laugh

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:47 PM

Great, have a laugh then. Glad to brighten someone's day.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: sledge
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:41 PM

I guess Clinton is being Ironic here, as if politics matter. How would you define that, that they don't affect the price of each and every article that you buy, when and where you may travel in this world, how many bucks you have in your pocket at the end of each week.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM

El Greko: I hesitate to ask around here (not you specifically) because simple questions or responses around here get me into pissing contests when I really don't want one, but I would like to know if there is some reason I don't know about for you to say there was no such memo viewed by Rumsfeld. Below is a picture of the March 6, 2003 "draft" memo, with Rumsfeld's name on the front as the person who ordered it classified. Are you saying the quotes have been distorted? (I don't have time to track them down specifically.)

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/military_0604.pdf

CH I am surprised you lump US-sanctioned torture with mere "politics."

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: JohnHammondIV
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:40 PM

You must pardon young Clinton - he always would say anything, absolutely anything - to draw attention to himself and really annoy everybody else.    At school, pretending indifference to serious matters would get his teachers really riled up, and that experience has led him to use the same tactics ever since.   

I blame myself for how he turned out.   If he hadn't gone to all those pot parties after choir practice, he might still have a mite of common decency left.

Alas, that was not to be.   My apologies to all you good people.   I am terribly ashamed of what I allowed to happen.   Please forgive me.

John Hammond IV
Executive Vice President
Enron Political Lobby

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:51 PM

Yet another wanker Mudcat post...

No wonder so many old time Mudcatters have left this place behind them...


Young? I'll take that as a compliment though....

Heh

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: BaldEagle2
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 07:23 PM

May I try to get this thread back on track?

There appears (to me) to be two important points worthy of debate:

    1.   Does the Terry Jones article add anything to our understanding of abuse in Iraq, Afghanistan and (possibly) Cuba?

    2.   Does Terry Jones have any right to address such topics?

I think his article skewers fairly precisely what the legal memo meant, in terms that most people can understand.    A little overblown, a little short on belly laughs, but the parallels were accurate enough to bring the memo into stark belief.   (If others think not, then we can debate the point).

Does it matter that Terry Jones used to be on the Monty Python program?   I would find it difficult to accept that a valid argument may be dismissed, simply because the person making it is not in the current circle of pundits and public opinion makers.   Again, the point is open for debate.

But it seems that there is a third topic emerging in our discussions (which I would really like to see go away).   If you disagree with what anyone says in this Forum, are you entitled to insult them out of hand?   If this is so, I can see why some of our members do not bother to participate in our discussions any more.

Does anyone care to examine the role of the Court Jester in the Middle Ages, and those of the Late Night shows nowadays?   (Which is where, I think, people like Terry Jones draw both their inspiration and justification).   If so, let's discuss it.   If not, please don't tell me that I am a worthless scumbag to waste your time of day by raising the point.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 07:28 PM

GUEST, heric, my fault for being obscure - my first post was totally tongue-in-cheek. I believe in fact the reverse of what I am postulating there. I was just having a dig at some 'catters who ignore the evidence before their eyes (like the existence of that report).

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 10:12 PM

oh -duh- sorry.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:38 AM

'Oh no, not the comfy chair'

This won't hurt much

I assume that this is a reference to the fact that the original post in this thread is not your original thoughts but a 'cut and paste' contrubution. If so I am in complete agreement. However my view does not matter - the only view on this subject that does appear to matter is Joe Offer's. I copy his following comments from a current thread on the 'help' forum and perhaps any further comments on the issue of 'cut and paste' contributions can be made there, rather than in this one.
http://help.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2597&messages=65
I post this here as I am sure that many posters will be totally unawre of this hard and fast rule and personal judgement that Joe has seen fit to impose upon all contributors to the forum at this late stage in our forum's evolution.

Shambles complains about the copy-paste policy. The policy was established a couple of years ago because a small number of people were overwhelming discussions with multiple, lengthy, non-music articles they had copy-pasted from other online sources. Oftentimes, these articles were readily available at a number of locations on the Internet. People who took the time to write their own opinions were completely overshadowed by pages and pages of words that somebody took a few seconds to copy and paste.

So, we developed a policy and posted it in the FAQ. We encourage people to post the entire text of lyrics and music information, plus a link to where they found the information. Whatever is posted, should be attributed to its original source.

For non-music copy-paste information, posts are limited to approximately one screen full of text - my 19-inch monitor is the arbitrary arbiter of what one screen is, and that's a fairly generous allowance. If the text is longer than one screen, a person should post a link to the full article, plus a summary of the article in his own words (or an excerpt that is less that one screen of text). If somebody posts his own words, the one-screen limit does not apply.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:46 AM

The original cut and paste post WAS only approximately one screen full of text. What was your point Shambles?

By the way, for what it's worth, I enjoyed it. I thought it was very clever.

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: annamill
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:27 PM

Wow! I wish I had read that when my offsprings (i know this is incorrect english. I'm being funny) were little.

I was going to write that with a cockney accent but didn't know how to spell "little" with a cockney accent. "liii''eawl"?


'specially my son! He wouldn't tell me what he did after school either!!

Hey, I thought this was pretty funny! Cheez!

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 08:51 PM

I read Terry Jones' original article. If I remember rightly, from when I was studying philosophy,following an argument logically could lead to an absurd conclusion (Reductio ad absurdam).

I'd also forgotten, until last week, that Terry Jones, while a Python, wrote a song called "I like traffic lights".

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 01:58 AM

Very eloquent letter.

I have a high respect for Jones & the Python Group. I don't think the attribution is more than an honest identification of who wrote it. I certainly don't thing its 'entertainment' funny, rather pointedly funny.

People in power have this veneer of respectability that lets them say almost anything. Because it seems unpatriotic to criticise their roles and positions they have a substantial platform for thier ideas.

I believe that Bush and his Cabinate have badly abused this platform and I think this is an eloquent example of how deplorable things have become. Rumsfield, as he defends these terrible acts is no less culpable than the people who commit such abuse. I dread what goes on in Cuba (that is the American Base in Cuba). I think that it is a frightenning thought that where photos aren't leaked in other areas similar or worse abuses are going on.

I think Bush has devalued the American Moral standard by manipulating laws & the legal process.

This term has highlighted the inequities of the United States -warhawk & rightwing superpower.

sigurd

Subject: RE: a Python speaks
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:30 PM

Who pissed on your bonfire Clinton ?