BS: Spirituality

Subject: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM

I'm worried about a friend

He has taken up a spirituality phase that seems to be doing him more harm than good!

Before he got serious about this stuff he was calm, easy going,relaxed, and enjoyed many different things. Now he looks 20 years older seems more stressed out about the simplest things and is not very scociable at all, When out he is more arguementitive and tends to seem to get pissed off and leave early.

If spirituality is about bettering yourself why should it seem to be bad for him?

My major concern is that the guru guy he seems to be following might be after financial gain to fund part of a Toronto chapter of his cult or whatever this thing is.

My buddy seems to be cutting himself off from the friends that really care about him!

He goes through bouts of depression and won't realize that he may be being sucked in to some false reality while being isolated from the real world!

Any advice would be apriciated!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

Be a good friend, in small ways, to keep contact. What might that look like?

Be honestly curious about what he is experiencing, and ask questions from that place, not trying to "de-goof" him. Support HIS thought process-- don't angle for him to change it for yours-- so that he can think about things for himself.

Remember that it's his life and that he can handle it, and remain a loving and available support person even if he disappears for awhile-- be a good place to come home to when he's ready.

Be a good model of having a sense of humor about oneself. Cults are so SERIOUS. Be fun, off the topic of the concerns.

(And maybe at the same time, quietly investigate the situation and see if you have any information about illegal activities of the higher-ups, that you can pass along to the right people?)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM

hi raptor

what a good friend you are to him. just being there for him if it falls apart is the best thing you can do. if it doesn't, well, its working for him.

i would take him to a comedy club occasionally. that'll knock some reality into him!

good luck

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:00 PM

You could just ask him what it is that worries him.....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freightdawg
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:01 PM

Bouts of depression, moodiness, separation from friends, isolation: you used just about every word that describes a cult. The problem with cults is that they always have a very charismatic leader (the guru to whom you refer) and he/she exercises a tremendous amount of guilt/manipulation/power/control over the people in their "family." Of course your friend cannot see what is going on, because every time you try to point something out to him he will report it to his guru who will then use every manipulative trick in the book to overcome your concern, and turn your friend against you in the process. The problem is the more you confront, the more the guru will try to cut you out of your friend's life.

The only way to completely help your friend is to remove him from the guru/cult for a period of time long enough for him to see how he has changed. Every day he is in the group it will be harder. It can be done, but if he has any contact with the "family" your work will be destroyed. Some cults can be particularly physical with someone they consider to be wavering, so be careful.

Every church/synagogue/mosque/prayer circle/spiritual group exhibits some of the same characteristics, but with a major difference in focus. Legitimate groups want the spiritual health of a person to increase, not decrease. They should be concerned with the whole person, not just one aspect. Also, most healthy spiritual leaders encourage dialog on spiritual matters, they do not seek to eliminate it.

Best of luck. I am by no means a specialist, but I may (repeat, may) be able to help in some way. PM me if you want. I would need to know more about the emphases of the particular group your friend is associated with.

My thoughts are with you.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Janie
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:15 PM

Without more information about his behavioral changes it is impossible to guess what might be going on. You sound like you are really concerned for him. If the changes are extreme, especially with the irritability and the religiosity, then he may need evaluated by a mental health professional. He could be going through a particularly severe episode of Major Depressive Disorder, or even showing signs of Bipolar Disorder. Both can really mess with one's thinking.

Or...he may just be really crabby about something.

If you know someone in the MH field, or have a local community mental health center, you may call and describe your concerns to them and see if they recommend that you try to get him in to see some one. Otherwise, feel free to PM me with more details and I may be able to tell you if it is critical for him to be evaluated.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

Raptor:

Do you know the name of the "spiritual" practice he is pursuing?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

Okay, here's the key:

1. Find out if they are engaging in human sacrifice.

2. Find out if they swear blood oaths.

3. Find out if they employ the uses of rodents in what could be termed an unusual manner.

4. Find out if they hate football and are bored by hockey.

5. Find out if they bow down before graven images of William Shatner.

If so...prepare to mount an extremely hazardous rescue operation. Your friend's sanity could hang in the balance.

Several other disturbing signs:

a)A reduction of interest in watching TV.
b)A reduced tendency to play computer games till 3 AM.
c)Going to bed early and rising early.
d)Practicing Qui Gong.
e)Meditating.
f)An alarming tendency to read "serious" books, as opposed to crime novels.
g)Totally not giving a shit what anyone else thinks about all of the above (a-f).

These disturbing sings could indicate that your friend is slipping rapidly out of the grasp of what is termed "normality". It may be possible to save him/her, but it will not be easy. Be prepared for the worst!

***(Lest anyone think I am being insensitive in bringing humour to this matter that Raptor has brought up...well, I know the friend in question...and that's why I am doing so. I have reason to.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:17 PM

Tough line to walk here. You can't come off as judgemental because his "guru" has allready warned him about "folks like you" and that will only drive a wedge...

...but you can't not tell him that you are concerned about him.

You do need to confront your friend in an indirect manner that is not threatening.

"Gee, _______, you seem to going thru some though times. Hey, if you ever want to talk about stuff call me any time." Then pause, look him straught in the eye, put your hand on his shouder and say, "I mean this very sincerely."

Then leave it alone but continue to keep yerself avilable to him/her.

And yer prayers for your friend might help, too...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

How about seeing a good mental health doctor?

This person sounds mentally ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 08 Jul 04 - 11:06 PM

Apparently this guy now believes that all his old friends are somehow beneth him and are mindless idiots not worth his time.

Spirituality more often than not involves people triing to be something that they are not in the belief that if they act like the people they want to be they will somehow be better!

Wearing a loincloth and painting a dot on yer head doesn't make you Ghandi.

Burning tobacco and sage doesn't make you native!

Bottom line Try to be a good person to those around you and you will be rewarded! Act like a pious asshole and you are worth nothing!

I used to feel sorry for this guy cause he was always triing to be someone else,Something that he wasn't. But he let me down and seems to be more selfish than I gave him credit for and if thats his idea of being a better more chalenged person, so be it.

At this time in my life I need friends that I can count on, not people that will let you down.

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:33 AM

Raptor:

Do you know what this practice is that he has submerged himself into?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Micca
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 03:31 AM

I have found This Frame very useful in deciding if something is a "cult" or just for generally evaluating organisations that seek to exercise some control over its followers

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:03 AM

I think there is more going in here than a lot of us are aware of.

Little Hawk, if you do indeed know the person in question, and if you are intimating that the problem lies possibly more with the person who began this thread and his inablity to accept change happening to a friend...then I wish you'd make that clear.

Raptor, I am getting that you feel very hurt over this, and betrayed. But to feel these things towards someone you like, or liked, is quite different than thinking that he has been badly influenced by a "cult".

Cults of all kinds can indeed be dangerous, and I'm not defending what I know can be very difficult situations with friends and family...but I'm feeling from your last post, and from the one Little Hawk wrote, that this isn't really the case. The guy has disappointed you personally more than your concern that he is being controlled by this unnamed spiritual group. You've offered little in the way of facts about it, and again, though I understand your feelings of having lost a friend, please try not to make this into something it may well not be.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:27 AM

I had a pal do that. It turned out that the cult AND the moodiness were symptoms of a physical health problem that was worrying him, and that he died of. Didn't twig until too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: 42
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:49 AM

Raptor - there is a ring of selfishness in your posts...your friend doesn't want to hang out anymore...you're lonely.

I certainly don't feel like a mindless idiot and am trying to respect and trust the exploration of my version of your friend.

I'm with Ellenopoly on this one and I think discussing this with your friend in a somewhat less aggressive manner might set your mind at ease.(or at least let you feel less responsible for setting them on the "right" path)

"Act like a pious asshole" ??What's that about? It seems to me you are indulging in a little personal peity yourself...what you think works for you may not be the answer for your friends.

j

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:56 AM

Ellenpoly, I know the people and a little about the spiritual group in question here, and I unfortunately have a bit of personal experience with being waylaid and used by a psychically powerful, charismatic "guru" type . (Freightdawg's most accurate description above brought back some chilling memories shiver shiver) In light of all that, I do think you are right on in your interpretation of the situation Raptor is concerned about.

People who feel a longstanding deep-seated discontent with themselves or their lives, or who are dealing with traumatic life experiences can develop unhealthy attachments and dependencies, not only upon "gurus" but upon friends.

I'd like to assure all of you good-hearted Catters that I while I'm 99% positive all is well I am keeping a watchful eye on the situation, and that the people involved continue to receive the very best of my "prayerful" efforts and intentions.

You are a wonderful bunch!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:03 AM

42 the "pious asshole comment" is about a PM I recieved that you did not see!

As for the cult situation I was worried that this group of people are after more than the spiritual advancement of the folks that seem to be enchanted by the leader. There is no indication that they have asked for money yet! And I feel that mentioning thier name might be slanderous!

If they are genuine good for them and good for him! I wish them well!
I was just worried about someone I cared about!

And yes I probably am just feeling hurt and betrayed but the cause for concern was that said friend WAS looking like shit, And becomming more of an introvert, and these have indicated depression in him in the past! And depression is a very scary thing (my wife had it for years before she died)

Most people shrug it off and say thet they are doing thier own thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:19 AM

Know a guy who joined a Jesus Cult back in the '70s. Said everything they did was done by Jesus through them, and the feeling of "belonging" was wonderful. He had no fears, no doubts.

Then one day he realized he'd just said, "Thank you, Jesus, for tying my shoes." It hit him that just maybe, maybe, Jesus and/or God the Father had lots of more important things to do than tie his shoes.

At that point, he walked out and back into what, for him, passes for a normal life.

Maybe this will happen.

Just be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:29 AM

I have been noticing that the people who talk about spirituality and needing healing are people who would greatly benifit by just accepting who they are and stop wanting to change themselves to be something they think they should be!

I've taken up Hand drumming and Dayla and I have found a couple of drum circles to attend one of them is full of people who seem to act like professional victoms the are in need of some sort of healing for being downtrodden. They are a huggy group and seem very phony. They speak about love and happiness but to talk to them at lunch after the drum circle they are a pissed off back bitting group of people!

I have also met people who are very happy with who they are and seem to be doing great and those are the people who are a pleasure to be around!

I'm not knocking spiritual persuits, I find yoga to be a great way to relax the mind and body and I know many people who benifit from Ti chi and chi gong, and find zen writings a great way to open up the mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 11:58 PM

Schizophrenia beats dining alone. And once you get used to it, insanity can be the most normal thing in the world.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 01:00 AM

Art:

Beautiful sentiments for their truth, and their humor too!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:30 AM

Don't blame it on spirituality. That makes about as much sense as invading Iraq to get even for 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:47 AM

Seems to me that some of the people on this thread have either judged you or your friend on what you have written but I find little to form an opinion of substance either way. I do however agree that as this person is your friend, you should offer a caring front and subtly get the message across that you are there if needed. Be a friend to your friend whatever, and try not to be judgemental. If you find out some facts about the organisation which cause you great concern, confront your friend (in as sensitive a way as possible) tell him about your findings and leave it with him....still being there for him...whatever.
I wish to make clear here that this is an opinion based on little knowledge and is "perhaps" what I would do in your situation.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: I'd Rather Be an Old Time Christian
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

I just read this full thread for the first time and find it hard to get a handle on what is going on. I even have a hard time trying to figure out "spirituality" is. I can understand your concern, Raptor, if this is someone you care about. And, I think the advice of keeping yourself available if the person wants to turn to you is right on target. Truth is, though, (I think) we can't always "save" other people from doing something really stupid and self-destructive. Most everyone who has responded to this thread has done plenty of stupid, self-destructive things in their lives despite friends and family telling them that they were heading for trouble. I know that I have. Sometimes, you just have to do what you can, recognize that we are all limited in how much we can affect the lives of others, and then let it go. Anyone who has raised children and gone through their teenage, young adult years with them knows that at some point, you just have to let go and if it's your own approach to "spirituality" put them in prayer. Just "be there" if they need you and turn to you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:53 AM

Georgiansilver, your post has prompted me to share these thoughts from a book about HUNA (Hawaiian mysticism) called Clearing Your Lifepath Through Kahuna Wisdom by Dr. Allan P Lewis. These are Dr Lewis' recommendations to HUNA students wishing to clear "complexes and fixations" (negative mental/emotional habits) and to grow spiritually in the process. I think they fit in very well with this discussion ...

"Make no comparisons
Make no judgements
Delete your need to understand

Make no comparisons means you are not to compare your life to the lives of others. Nor are you to compare your life to theirs.
Nor are you to compare the lives of other people to each other. You are as and what you are. So are they. Change your own life if you wish, but not because of comparisons to others, only by your own considered choice. And allow others the same privilege.

Make no judgements, for these are quick reactions to previous programming, and as you have been learning previous progamming is more often wrong than right. With the aid of the High Self you have the right to judge yourself, but not others. Learn to respond to people and circumstances, not as old habit patterns would have you do but as each experience calls for response, based on the thoughtful assessment of its individual merits.

Delete your need to understand, the need to know the "why(s) and wherefore(s)" of the people and circumstances around you. Accept understanding as it comes, not with an emotional and negative "need" to understand. Wisdom and understanding come, not because you think you need them, but when you allow them to flow through you from the High Self. Wisdom and understanding are a function of what is, not what you think you want things to be.

In fact, all three of these injunctions are saying simply this: Give up your ideas of what you think you ought to be. Accept what is. Then proceed to advance yourself from there. Only then will you cease to criticize, to contradict, and to display all the tricks of negative ego. You will become truly humble and gain the great impersonal overview.

Wisdom and understanding will flow your way, and you will begin to know the meaning of I Am That I Am".


I'm finding that practicing Dr Lewis recommendations is quite the challenge, requiring constant mental vigilance. At least, this new perpective seem to be completely at odds with the way I was conditioned to think and behave! But it's worth it. All that judging, condemning, criticizing, analysing, comparing, competing, flouting and defending my precious personal opinions as if they were the most important, vital thing in the universe --- what a waste of time and energy I now realize all that was! And I'm becoming a happier, healthier, more vital and loving person for my efforts.

I think I'm more pleasant to be around these days too!

daylia


PS I'm preparing material for the HUNA workshops Two Bears and I are giving later this month, and I do appreciate very much the opportunity to "rehearse" these teachings on a public forum.

So Mahalo nui loa! (thank you very much) to the Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:21 AM

Hey, Rap!

I've read this whole thread and don't have much to add. There's been a lot of good advice in here. The only things I'd offer is that none of us has the power to change someone else. It's difficult enough to change ourselves, and we are as deaf-eared to the wisdom of others as we feel others are to our advice. Anyone who has raised kids and gone through their teenage and young adult years discovers how limited we are in shaping the lives of others. And probably just as well. The cliche "Experience is the best teacher" has a lot of truth to it (as most cliches do.) There is a time when you have to let go, and pray (depending on your own spiritual life) that the person will find their way through the valley they're walking in to. And let them know that you'll still be there for them, without judgment if they need you. With nary an "I told you you souldn't have.."

It also sounds like you're taking your friend's new direction in life as a rejection of you. If that's the case, bad move, buddy. It's not about you. Seven years ago, I made a dramatic change in my life which was embraced by some friends, and attacked by others. It was a real revelation for me. The people who attacked me started each sentence with "I." I finally got fed up with them and said, "Excuse me... I thought we were talking about me, not you." Wherever your friend is headed, give thanks for the friendship you've had, because no one can take that away from you. If your friend is heading into destruction, you've done what you can to dissuade him/her.

Now, it's time to "Let It Be."

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:32 AM

Yeah, sounds good to me. I certainly got a great charge out of the last HUNA workshop in Atlanta, and am looking forward to this one. Your job in life is to change yourself, not change others. Why? Cos you don't have jurisdiction over others, that's why.

I have no attraction whatsoever to cults that try to control their membership in various ways, blatant or subtle. I avoid such people. I like my independence and I intend to maintain it.

On the other hand, if I want to learn to play a challenging guitar technique I would seek out the best teacher I could find and learn form him/her. Same goes for spiritual disciplines and techniques like meditation, HUNA, tai chi, and so on. You learn from those who have more experience than you do. That's the way to go. But if they try to take over your life and make your decisions for you, you say, "Hasta la vista, baby!" I've met a few like that... :-) I think such people have a serious ego problem...they have difficulty controlling themselves in some way, so they opt to control others. That's not healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:12 AM

Oh, good post there, Jerry. Yeah, when you change some people really aren't gonna like it. Well, that could mean they've got a problem of their own too, couldn't it?

I remember deciding to go out West and visit Rolling Thunder back in the late 70's. My parents had a big fight with me about it, cos they had had it in mind at the time that I was going to do something else instead, and my going out west wasn't THEIR idea. In other words, they wanted to control my life.

Nobody controls my life but me. I went out west, visited Rolling Thunder, and it turned out to be one of the best things I ever did in my whole life. So, listen to your own inner voice, that's what I say.

"It is not he or she or them or it that you belong to" - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 02:08 PM

Interesting thing about this thread: Only once has God been referred to, and that in a negative example. I thought that spirituality had something to do with God, not just self-realization....

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:07 PM

Jerry, it has everything to do with God, and nothing to do with organized religeon

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 04:11 PM

Jerry, if you care to, scroll up a few posts and you'll find ....

I Am That I Am".

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:19 PM

Well, BroJerry, I mentioned prayer. Any points fir that?

Jus' funnin'...

BroBobert

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:00 PM

"daylia" I find your post very interesting. My comments came from a Christian heart.. and the principles I try to live by are Christian ones. The thoughts from the book about HUNA reflect the efforts that Christians should make in changing their own behaviour. There are many other expectations also but we all find that difficulty in perfecting our ways...of becoming more "mature" in our behaviour and belief. Nevertheless, I must keep trying...keep making the effort to be the best I can be and sometimes failing....
I try not to judge but sometimes I know I do. I try not to compare but know I sometimes do. With regard to understanding... I have found in my belief that I did not have to understand to believe but had to believe to begin my understanding....To everyone their own beliefs and standards but perhaps if we all tried to put some of those things into practice..our attitudes to our fellow man/woman would be far healthier.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 06:03 PM

I would offer for consideration that there are plenty of miles of "spirituality" to go before the first glimmer of God comes over the horizon. But you need to find your own center fully before he's gonna be more than a Big Concept. Institutionalized versions don't do a lot for me. It's a verb with a huge amount of Being in it. That's an acquired skill.

I know this may not go down with some. That's OK with me.

But it's 2 cents' worth....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 07:11 PM

Never dump on anothers religion; it is no sillier than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 08:42 PM

Many religions depart from their best spiritual insights the minute they decide they need to get organized. In the Christian case, there was a lot of emphasis in the Gospel of Thomas on the individual nature as offspring of God which was completely dropped out of the teachings of the Church once it got organized.

An expert on NPR said the other day that although the rationale for this cutting is not really known, it would seem to be that they needed more emphasis on the kinds of lessons that made people manageable, rather than self-determined, for the sake of getting the church to grow. Obviously an organizationally successful decision, but arguably a less spiritual one. And the Christian church is not the only one to suffer this strange transformation when organizing, I believe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:16 PM

Not necessarily related to the current situation, just general a general observation.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!"

Strange! Until you get an interpretation of what this means. The essence of spirituality and religion is mystery. If you begin to think you have the answers and that you know what is in the mind of God, you are not asking the right questions. If you think you can see God clearly, then that's not God. Erase that idea, back up, and start over.

Some people can't stand mystery and ambiguity. They have to have pat answers for everything. That's what breeds fundamentalism. Religion is mystery. Beware, especially of priests, ministers, or gurus who tell you that they have the answers.

The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:29 PM

I think you open a semantic whirlpool with that one, Don.

It is one thing to be totally able to tolerate mystery, and quite another to assert that it is essential to spirituality. I think knowing in the highest sense of the word (not spitting data back, but knowing is what God does and what any spiritual being is capable of.

Certainty is a kind of faith in itself, which does not need data or information or justification.

None of this has anything to do with bashing opponents with information and being dumped back with counter-data.

But having ways to acquire answers is a million times more important tha having some past set of answers! :>)

If I met the Buddha on the road, I'd hang out with him. Not to borrow his answers, but just to feel what he felt like.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

Ah, yes. Provided that is really the Buddha! Therein lies the problem

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 09:40 PM

Maybe I could get him to answer a trick question, or something....

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:13 PM

spirituality is what's happening when you're not looking at yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 10:45 PM

Once again I'd like to suggest a book by Alan Watts titled The Wisdon Of Insecurity.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 11:54 PM

Some people find their spiritual center in organized religion, and that is all right. It works for them. Others find their spiritual center somewhere else, and I believe that is all right too.

We don't all necessarily take the same path to the Divine. And that, I believe, is also all right. (even though it defies the logic of my Baptist upbringing)

Cults are something a little different, though, that take away a person's individual spiritual choice. If that's the case, this may not be such a good thing for your friend. But ---- I am discovering myself, there are a lot of growing pains on the spiritual journey. Perhaps your friend is worn out because this is what he is experiencing. Sometimes you have to get worse before you can get better - after all, a resurrection can only happen after death.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:14 AM

There has been a huge world-wide, up-swing in "EST Training."

Is your friend one of these mis-guided souls???

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:23 AM

That's a clever definition, freda! You could also say it is who you are before you drum up something to be.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:13 AM

Kim, I was raised Baptist but I escaped. I found no logic in that sect.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:02 AM

UPDATE: I disscussed my worries with my friend and was assured by him and others that know him that the Group is not after money, just a like minded bunch of people seeking a higher form of enlightenment.
My friend further assured me that if anyone ever asked him for money he would "Run like Hell".

I believe him.

I wished him well. And said(On your advice) "Call me sometime."

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Raptor
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:05 AM

How many here practice Yoga?

And what for?(Streaching or Meditation)

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 02:38 PM

Raptor, I learned some basic yoga stretches out of a book and practiced them as a sports warm-up for years -- until I slipped a disc in my back once doing the sun salutation.

Consequently, I don't think that twisting oneself into a pretzel is necessarily all that good for the health. Yoga was good for developing self-awareness though, and also for beginning to learn how to breathe properly (which most Westerners don't have a clue about).

I suffered with the pain of that slipped disc for years until I met Two Bears over the internet last summer. He used a combination of shamanic and Huna energetic healing techniques to move the disc back into place. That healing took all of 5 minutes over the phone, all the way from Tennessee to Ontario. I don't think any doctor, surgeon or chiropractor could have effected such a fast and complete healing! I was dancing in incredulous joy at the relief of that long-standing pain for months afterwards - and believe me, I've been learning and practicing Huna techniques ever since!

Will I ever practice yoga again? Probably not. I've been practicing Qigong, particulary Ba Duan Jin for about a year now. I'm finding that these "softer" martial arts are much kinder to the body, while Huna is much more beneficial for the mind, emotions, the body and the spirit.

Some people find that yoga is beneficial, but sorry --- I just cannot "back" that up!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 07:31 PM

When people say "yoga" they are most commonly referring to Hatha Yoga which is a series of physical exercises, mostly what you would call stretching exercises. It's one small part of yoga, as I'm sure you know, Daylia. It sounds like you were either doing the sun salutation a little wrong somehow or maybe you just had a structural weakness there or maybe you were overdoing it. At any rate, one can run into such problems using any physical exercise program, whether it be weightlifting, running, or Hatha Yoga.

The word "yoga" means "union"(with the divine), and it includes a number of different disciplines including physical yoga (Hatha), breathing techniques (which are great!), meditation, study of sacred scriptures, diet, and so on. A Yogi is someone who has mastered all of those disciplines. In the West people usually associate it mainly with the physical exercises, however. There is yoga for the body, yoga for the mind, and yoga for the spirit.

I'm cautious with the sun salutation and some other yoga postures, cos my back is not so strong.

I've been very well impressed by Two Bears' brand of HUNA. It works extremely well, by using what I would call a directed flow of "Chi" (life force). The Japanese call it Ki. The East Indians call it Prana. A healthy person is strong in Chi, a sick person is depleted of it. Same goes for a healthy plant or any other living thing. A lot of Chi can be gathered through improving breathing technique, as is done in HUNA and in Yoga and Qi Gong. These things are pretty universal, I find, and you come across them in most spiritual traditions...but that doesn't mean you'll hear about them in an organized religion. Not by any means.

Religion, I think, is generally a set of beliefs and rules, combined with an authority structure to largely control the outer person. Spirituality is a set of practical methods practiced by oneself to improve the inner person, and it requires no outer authority structure, though it certainly requires experienced instructors to guide novices in mastering various techniques.

Kind of like guitar or banjo playing that way... :-)

Religion purports to be a path toward knowing God. And for some it is. Spirituality is definitely a path toward knowing God, since God exists quietly inside the individual. As the individual comes to know his or her true Self better, the knowing of God occurs as a natural consequence, because they are one and the same. That's Self-Realization.

A Self-realized person tends to act in ways that are most beneficial to all concerned, and tends to genuinely care for both self and others, and does not tend to fall prey anymore to toxic emotions (such as hatred, envy, greed, etc). A Self-realized person is not weak, but readily able to stand up for himself and on behalf of others who are in need.

So, well, most of us are part way there...and with time we will continue to improve ourselves.

I like the HUNA motto: "Harm nothing with hatred." Very wise. Sometimes this is hard to remember when dealing with mosquitoes...but I'm sure it can be done. You see, the problem doesn't like in killing the mosquito, the problem lies in carrying the emotion of hatred while you do it. :-) It's bad for the nervous system on a subtle level.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 08:10 PM

hi daylia,

your story of long distance healing (particularly for a slipped disc) was fascinating.

I practised yoga twice daily for around fifteen years. it is an art of gentle stretching, and works just as well done gently as done with grunt. For that reason, i am not a follower of Iyengar yoga, which moves into an athletic, power crunching style. pushing the body beyond its limits can lead to all sorts of problems.

as well, asanas can be chosen which have the equivalent health benefits without stressing the body. For example, rather than doing a headstand, the same benefits can be achieved by alternating a shoulderstand pose with the fish. The shoulderstand achieves the benefits to organs (kidneys etc) of hanging upside down, and the fish achieves the pressure on the head without stressing the neck.

yoga works for those who start out quietly, and gently stretch and extend over a period of time. anyone doing any type of exercise vigorously can do damage if they move suddenly in the wrong position or without balancing properly.

Salute to the Sun (suryanamaskar) should only be performed when all the individual asanas which comprise it can each be comfortably done as individual postures first. in some ways yoga is like ballet, grace, balance and breathing are all part of it.

having said all that, if I slipped a disc doing any type of movement, i'd avoid it in the future as well. you are very lucky to have met Two Bears.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:02 PM

Life is only real, then: when I am. -Gurdjieff

Judgement and comparison lead us irrevokably to duality. -Krishnamurti

My 'yoga' is that of intense labor, artistically inclined... followed by reluctant surrender to rather spontanious napping...

Raptor, be honest with your friend, and care for him... from the distance he needs.

Be true to your self, so you may be true to others...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

Those are good quotations, Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 07:57 AM

Kim, I was raised Baptist but I escaped. I found no logic in that sect.

I was raised Baptist; but spent most of mt life as an athiest.

I had an OBE (Out of Body Experience) in 1996 and my worldview changed.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:20 AM

I've been very well impressed by Two Bears' brand of HUNA. It works extremely well, by using what I would call a directed flow of "Chi" (life force). The Japanese call it Ki. The East Indians call it Prana.

Thank you for the kind words my brother.


A healthy person is strong in Chi, a sick person is depleted of it. Same goes for a healthy plant or any other living thing. A lot of Chi can be gathered through improving breathing technique, as is done in HUNA and in Yoga and Qi Gong.

You are ABAOLUTELY correct.

Spirituality is a set of practical methods practiced by oneself to improve the inner person, and it requires no outer authority

I have heard it said that "Religion is for people afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for the people who have been there".

consequence, because they are one and the same. That's Self-Realization.

I like the HUNA motto: "Harm nothing with hatred." Very wise.

I can not take credit for the one HUNA commandment. The only credit I can take is for shortening it to four words. The original commandment was "Harm no one and nothing with hatred" I thought that if you "Harmed nothing with hatred" would exclude hurting people too. ;-)

Sometimes this is hard to remember when dealing with mosquitoes...but I'm sure it can be done.

Of course it can be done. Most people kill mosquitos on a reflex, and they do not have tome to think hatred toward the little mosquito.

The best policy would be use insect repellant.

If you do not want the chemicals in Odd, Cutter, etc, buy some essential oil of Pennyroyal, and make a water of pennyroyal.

You can make a water of Essential oil by placing a cup of distilled water, 10-12 drops of essential oil and about a teaspoon of rum, or vodka placed in a spray bottle and shaken well.

The rum or vodka helps the essential oil and water mix up instead of immediately seperating.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM

It's one small part of yoga, as I'm sure you know, Daylia.

Yeah, I knew that. *sigh* I posted that last message when I was tired already. I knew better, too. I'd been working at the computer for 6 hours on the HUNA material. I should have taken a break first, might have been thinking more clearly and feeling a little kindlier toward the discipline of yoga.

Oops ...Hatha Yoga, that is.

It sounds like you were either doing the sun salutation a little wrong somehow or maybe you just had a structural weakness there or maybe you were overdoing it. At any rate, one can run into such problems using any physical exercise program, whether it be weightlifting, running, or Hatha Yoga.

You're right, Little Hawk, on all 3 counts. I've often thought that myself. I think part of the problem was that I never practiced yoga in a class with a proper instructor. I learned it out of a book and always practiced it at home alone. It was hard to check my position while performing those postures, even using a mirror. I'd ask my kids "Does my back look straight while I'm doing this?" and they'd say "yeah yeah yeah" and run out the door to play soccer or whatever.

So I may very well have been doing that stretch a little wrong.

And I remember that occasionally my back hurt a bit anyway, even before I learned the yoga - ever since I was pregnant with the twins, in fact. So I may have been "set up" for problems way back then.

I did enjoy the yoga so much - as Freda said, its like ballet - so graceful, great for flexibility, balance and breathing. It was so hard to give it up. I kept practicing it for months even after my back had started twinging a little. Then one day, it was more than just a little. The pain was pretty bad. I wasn't even sure if the problem was in my back, my hip or somehow all the way down the back of one leg. It just hurt from the waist down, on one side.

I'd been "warned" too --- when I'd start that particular stretch that small still voice in my head started saying "One more time, just one more time and you're gonna be sorry". But would I listen to my Self? Oh no, not good ole trusting learn-things-the-hard-way me ....

"No pain no gain" after all. That's the Western approach to fitness and athletics. I was determined not to be a wimp.

But I don't mind being a wimp today. At least I'm a wimp with a back that works!   ;-)

I AM very grateful to have met Two Bears. I am learning this wonderful technology called HUNA, and it's changing my whole life for the better! My family and friends are grateful too ... even a few strangers I've felt compassion for and spontaneously offered the healing energy to. In particular, people suffering the pain of athletic injuries seem to bring out the best in me these days!

I've got "Holy HUNA!" healing stories comin out the yin-yang at this point, and I've only been practicing it for barely a year!

I can hardly wait for the opportunity to share these techniques with others at the workshops! I wanna get these teachings out there, this ole world needs 'em so badly it seems ...

Anyway, thank you very much LH and Freda for posting the information about yoga. And I do apologize again for slamming it a bit in my last post. What happened to me was because of ME, not the yoga!

Aloha nui loa,

daylia

PS Georgiansilver, thank you for your thoughtful post! I come from a Christian background as well - I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, although I always had major trouble trying to be a "good little Catholic girl". Believe me, Jesus is still MORE than just alright by me! My love and understanding of Him and His teachings has only grown deeper over the years I've been exploring other spiritual paths.

And when I'd got myself into big BIG trouble, VERY hot water "following the wrong gods home", lo and behold He was there for me!! All I had to do was ask. I'll never forget it.

Uh-oh, I'm getting tears ...   

Gotta sign off now .... thanks for listening

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 09:44 AM

Never dump on anothers religion; it is no sillier than your own. (Kendall)

Some religions are rationally superior to others. That means the others are dumber. (Steve Allen)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:03 AM

I've done Hatha Yoga on and off for about 40 years. I'll sometimes go for ages without doing it, and then I'll remember...usually when I have trouble with my back or neck. It's inevitably yoga that helps get me out of pain and back to "normal".
There are some good websites...one it particular that I'll try to track down for you. It shows animated yoga postures and I find them very good illustrations for people to follow...

PS-I'm really glad you talked with your friend.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:27 AM

--The original commandment was "Harm no one and nothing with hatred" I thought that if you "Harmed nothing with hatred" would exclude hurting people too.--

Twa Bears... may I respectfully submit... The original is far and away the superior of the two. As far as I'm concerned, you could do a little retreat and get that ego under control... ;^)
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:00 AM

Here's that website I mentioned on yoga..xx..e


http://www.hathayogalesson.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 07:38 PM

Twa Bears... may I respectfully submit... The original is far and away the superior of the two. As far as I'm concerned, you could do a little retreat and get that ego under control... ;^)
ttr

So what. Everyone has an opinion.

It would help; if I bought a new keyboard so I could clearly see the letters (I never was a touch typist). ;-)

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 10:00 PM

I had thought that just maybe Two_Bears would respond with a smidgen of humility. But, no.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:41 PM

Cute... So who is the connection then, Twa Bears...? 'Spiritual arrogance' anyone?

Perfect example of charlatanism, me thinks...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:54 PM

No, no, Ebbie and Thomas...it's just the process of typing on a keyboard that somehow causes Two Bears to seem aggressive and lacking in humility for some reason. I don't think he likes typing very much. :-) And he does have a keen sense of personal independence, which makes him seem very outspoken at times. (If you push him...he pushes back.)

Seriously. In person he's a pussycat, as they say, a person with a great deal of humility. He also heals absolutely anyone who needs it (if they want to be healed), at no charge, and is no charlatan I can assure you. He makes his living with an ordinary day job, not with HUNA. He's one of the most generous people I have ever met in my life.

You've just got to meet him in person, that's all. Communicating with him over a keyboard is not ideal.

However, I very much doubt you ever will meet him in person, so it's a moot point, isn't it?

One thing I pretty well always disagree with Two Bears about is politics...but so what? I figure he just came from a different political background, that's all. I find him very reasonable on pretty well everything else. Come to think of it, I've got good musical friends right here in this town that I disagree with about political matters too...but we agree on music and most other day to day stuff. Politics is really based upon dividing people, don't forget! Divide and conquer...that's how it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 04 - 11:59 PM

Opinions are like chakras, fellas -- everybody has at least one.

Meanwhile you have been given direct reports of Two Bears achieving effective results on at least one case. Why are you unwilling to allow that author to speak about her own experiences? Would it unnerve you in some way if she were speaking sooth? I think she is. You have second-hand reports of others, as well.

As an expert finger-pointer I can assure you that it takes a certain amount of arrogance to point out another's arrogance.

Let me add that I learned a poem, about forty years ago, from one of my teachers, that has stayed with me ever since even though I have not always adhered to it:

There's so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
That it ill behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us!

Pax vobiscum !

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:15 AM

I generally adore your posts, Little Hawk, and Amos...

...but not this time.

Physician, heal thy self.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:36 AM

TTR,

I hate to do this, but I have to go with LH and Amos. As a scientist, I will admit there are some things that I do not have theories that explain the facts. To rule out what Two Bears claims, without examination of the facts of the cases, is more charlatanism than his claims to have done so. I tend to give more value to firsthand testimony than I would to the attitude that, since I don't uunderstand something, it must not be so.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:35 AM

Amos, that poem is adorable. Thank you!

Physician, heal thy self.

ttr, Two Bears spends a good part of every day doing just that. For anyone serious about learning HUNA or any other energetic healing modality, doing the extensive inner work necessary to improve oneself mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually is not a choice anymore. It's a prerequisite, and a requirement.

Like Nike says, Just Do It - or your energy work will not "work" very well at all.

TWo Bears is no charlatan. I do know a charlatan when I see one these days. That's one lesson I hope I will never have to re-learn.

It wasn't really that this other shaman I knew was a fake. He could move plenty of life-force energy to help others if and when he chose to - which wasn't very often.

The difference is he was driven by the desire to manipulate and exert power and control over others, by money and delusions of grandeur. These character traits plus his oodles of natural charisma PLUS his ability to direct mana (Hawaiian for life-force energy or chi) to effect all manner of miraculous-looking phenomena -- leaving newbies to energy work slack-jawed boogie-eyed, believe me -- made him a very dangerous person to know.

This person hurt and robbed a lot of people, including me. He left a few dead women in his wake - and they died in a manner the doctors could not explain, and the police could not investigate.

There are no laws to cover "black magick".

If you knew about the physical disabilities, family traumas and abuse Two Bears has suffered I think you would understand him a little better. Those experiences are what made him the powerful and generous healer he is today.

LH is telling the truth, and so am I to the best of my ability - Two Bears is the Real McCoy, and HUNA is the Real Thing. I have my back back to prove it - and that's just one of the many many HUNA healings and "miracles" I've experienced and witnessed this year.

Unfortunately, the way Two Bears expresses himself in public often puts people off and damages his reputation.   :-(   So who's perfect?

I could go on and on but I'm not supposed to be comparing, judging, arguing or wanting to know all the "whys and wherefores" about others any more.

*sigh* I've messed that up already, I think.

Oh well, I'm by no means perfect either. I think life would be pretty bland if I was.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:44 AM

The only way to know is to be there. Some people have a crusty or undiplomatic manner on the Net and yet are marvelous people when you get to know them. Others are smooth as silk in their online manners...and yet are snakes when you get to know them. Others are both diplomatic AND genuinely nice in their character. Two Bears is of the first category among those three.

It would be nice if we were all perfect in every way... :-)

As for that other shaman, oh yeah, he knew how to move energy all right. Mostly bad energy, and for a bad purpose. Talk about a big waste of a great deal of expertise and ability...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:49 AM

Do bears shit in the woods?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:50 AM

Perfect example of charlatanism, me thinks...

If you believe that; be my guest.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:06 AM

No, no, Ebbie and Thomas...it's just the process of typing on a keyboard that somehow causes Two Bears to seem aggressive and lacking in humility for some reason. I don't think he likes typing very much. :-) And he does have a keen sense of personal independence, which makes him seem very outspoken at times. (If you push him...he pushes back.)

Aloha nui loa Little Hawk; my brother.

Thank you very much for the kind words.

I am just a bad typist, and do not have a lot of free time.

If someone pushes me in person; I push back if I need to.

Seriously. In person he's a pussycat, as they say, a person with a great deal of humility. He also heals absolutely anyone who needs it (if they want to be healed), at no charge, and is no charlatan I can assure you.

The hundreds of classmates, and three teachers I left lying in the floor (when I was so spiritually sick) during my school days would not describe me that way.

However, I very much doubt you ever will meet him in person, so it's a moot point, isn't it?

LH: Perhaps some of those people could meet us one day when I am going to be in your neighborhood.

One thing I pretty well always disagree with Two Bears about is politics...but so what? I figure he just came from a different political background, that's all.

Absolutely! Our political disagreements does not get in the way of our friendship. It is as simple as you have one opinion about politics, and I have another.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:08 AM

I'm rather fond of Seth's one commandment, "thou shalt not violate". But my favorite is "whatever I do to another, I also do to myself".

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:13 AM

Do bears shit in the woods?

Is there supposed to be a point in there somewhere? if so; I missed it.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:22 AM

I hate to do this, but I have to go with LH and Amos. As a scientist, I will admit there are some things that I do not have theories that explain the facts. To rule out what Two Bears claims, without examination of the facts of the cases, is more charlatanism than his claims to have done so. I tend to give more value to firsthand testimony than I would to the attitude that, since I don't uunderstand something, it must not be so. .

Bearded Bruce;

If you will

1. Stop limiting yourself by believing something this is impossible.

2. Learn a form of energy work, and apply it to your life.

You will experience things science can not explain.

May you enjoy your journey of self discovery.

2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

Yikes...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:42 AM

Two Bears,

I was trying to say I did not credit the attitude that something I did not understand must not be so, NOT that I believed it was impossible. I try to keep an open mind, as all good followers of the scientific principle should ( but often do not).

A friend of mine is working using healing touch. I do not claim to have an explaination, but it appears to me that it is a valid manipulation of energy. She claims I "bleed" energy, but so far we have not been able to show my concious mind how to stop it.

True science looks for theories to explain things, then for evidence one way or the other that the theory describes the facts. There is no definition of those things that one does not have a theory for as impossible- just unexplained.

8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:11 PM

Regarding chi, I used to take Judo, and my sensei taught a bit about philosopy and spiritual(?) concepts related to asian martial arts. Control of your own chi was part of that. I believe a lot of things that are considered 'spiritual' in nature are perhaps real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain.

Acupuncture is, I believe, aimed at re-directing chi (please correct me if I'm wrong). For years, people involved in western medicine thought it was bogus. Now, I believe it's possible there may be a few hold-outs don't think it works. In any case, western medicine came up with 'transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation' (TENS) as a treatment for chronic pain, which blocks the pain signal traveling neural pathways. They have little charts of where to put attach the wires that look a whole lot like acupuncture maps. You use TENS for a while, and the effects begin to last when you're not wearing the machine. I've used one of the suckers, and it worked. Personally, I don't see much difference in the two methods, other than the fact that TENS is a bit more acceptable to most people in western cultures.

I like what beardedbruce said. (Two bears - maybe a misunderstanding of what he said up there?) I've become perfectly comfortable with the idea that I can't explain certain things. If a thing helps someone, or at least causes no harm, I have no problem with it. If a thing works for me, personally, I'm likely to believe in it without an explanation. I'm not so likely to believe in it if I've only heard about it, no matter how earnest and logical the person telling about it is. Not believing is not the same as believing it's not true, though. I'm willing to take chances on nearly any possibility that doesn't involve the risk of losing something important, and beliefs that can be lost aren't important. Maybe I could fix this stupid forearm problem, or numb fingers, or...

Two bears, you seem like a fascinating and gentle person, and if I should meet you one day, I'd be glad.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 07:39 PM

Most people really have little or no idea how a CD player or a microwave works either. :-) That doesn't stop them from having confidence in those devices, because they're familiar with them and they know that they DO work from past experience. People who are familiar with moving Chi also know that it works, whether or not they know exactly how it does. There are some wonderful texts from Asia which do explain how, for anyone who is genuinely interested.

Yes, acupuncture helps to restore proper flow of Chi and to discharge blocked-up Chi from various parts of the body...parts that could be described as sort of "junction boxes". Too little Chi in an organ or muscle causes weakness. Too much Chi causes burnout or other stress symptoms. It's really a lot like electricity.

Benji, you asked if a bear shits in the woods. I think you should go into the deep woods and see if you can find an actual bear, maybe a grizzly, and ask him or her about this face-to-face for the definitive answer. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:23 PM

philosopy and spiritual(?) concepts related to asian martial arts. Control of your own chi was part of that. I believe a lot of things that are considered 'spiritual' in nature are perhaps real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain.

Aloha nui loa Jeri; my sister.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct about martial artists directing ch'i.

I once saw on video tape a Qigong advanced student break a shaft of bamboo over his Qigong master's adam's apple when the bamboo should have crushed the Qigong master's trachea.

Sifu Richard Mooney (a Lin Gong Jing Qigong master) gives Qigong demonstrations around the country, and he is famous for knocking two lines of 6 people down without touching them. Mr. Mooney was an advanced student of Paul Dong. Mr. Dong wrote the book "Invisivle Force: The Ultimate Martial Art). Paul Dong once knocked down a line of 30 people while he was on the other side of a sheet of plywood, to the people could not observe him. or pick up any cues from him.

The study and manipulation of life-force energy is world wide.

Chinese called this energy ch'i; Japanese called it ki. Pueblo Indians called it Itaki, Cerokee Indians called it nuwati, Osage indians called it manitou, Hawai'ians called it mana, etc.

Acupuncture is, I believe, aimed at re-directing chi (please correct me if I'm wrong). For years, people involved in western

You are absolutely correct.

Accupuncture has been used to heal all kinds of maladys, and if memory serves; I once saw a report on a news proadcast like 20/20, 60 minutes, or something similar where an accupuncture therapist was helping heroin addicts break the heroin addiction.

of what he said up there?) I've become perfectly comfortable with the idea that I can't explain certain things. If a thing helps someone, or at least causes no harm, I have no problem with it. If a thing

Good philosophy

Maybe I could fix this stupid forearm problem, or numb fingers, or...

What is wrong with your forearm and fingers.

Two bears, you seem like a fascinating and gentle person, and if I should meet you one day, I'd be glad.

What part of the country do you live in. It's possible we may meet one day.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:30 PM

I was trying to say I did not credit the attitude that something I did not understand must not be so, NOT that I believed it was impossible. I try to keep an open mind, as all good followers of the scientific principle should ( but often do not).

I never said that you believed it was impossible.

I was only suggesting that you approach the subject with an open mind and heart and decide for yourself if lifeforce energy was real.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:29 PM

A microwave will cook your hotdog, Little Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:35 PM

Do you have too much or too little Chi in your organ?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 11:55 PM

I live in New Hampshire, Two bears. The forearm thing is probably 'tennis elbow', and just started around last November. The tips of the fingers on my right hand have been partially numb since about 1991. Nerve conduction tests on that arm were normal, but I've got funny spots on my brain. (But at least the tests show I HAVE a brain!) The numbness doesn't really cause much of a problem. I can't always tell if I'm holding something small, like a piece of paper or a coin.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 02:18 AM

So here and there I do declare that Two Bears get my goat
And flocks of geese resound with ease 'it's now unwise to gloat'
So I'll declare no time to spare as all things come to pass
To write my wrong will not take long... it seems, I've been an ass.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

Aww, TTR ... and you were so close!

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 08:28 PM

Close enough'll 'ave to do... I'm just not built for fighting
Spirit'ul stuff resists review, I'd rather be deliting
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 12:30 AM

I seldom eat hotdogs, Benji, and you wouldn't either if you knew what went into them. :-) Now go find that bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:44 AM

I live in New Hampshire, Two bears.

Are you up for a trip to the Midhurst or Orilia area of Ontario, Canada?

If so; I will be flying (with the help of U.S. Airways) there in four days, and be there for a week.

The numbness doesn't really cause much of a problem. I can't always tell if I'm holding something small, like a piece of paper or a coin

Have you been to a specialist?

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

I yet have to see one demonstration by a martial artist (in video or in reality) that is unexplainable by today's knowledge. A good start is the old book by Houdini, Miracle mongers and their methods, the last chapters about strongmen.

What I see there is a mixture of misdirection (make the onlooker overlook the vital details), clever use of not well know physical laws, tricks, and a very admirable control of their bodies.

No question, without long training you are not able to repeat many of the demonstrations, for you'd lack the necessary control of the body, but what happens there is well within the known laws of physics and physiology. These demonstrations are very impressive at first. The few demonstrations which are physically impossible (we had a group of martial artists touring Germany and I have seen a picture by picture analysis of a video), are clever tricks using misdirection (catching a bullet shot on them through thin glass which cracks to make you think there was a bullet flying).

Admirable control of bodies yes, unexplicable phenomena, no.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:58 AM

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" either, Wolfgang! I must be working from a different pool of knowledge, I guess...or maybe you are just not hanging out with the right martial artists...or both. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:25 AM

real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain (Two Bears)

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" (Little Hawk)

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:39 AM

Unfortunately, Toronto is about 10 hours away by car and I can't really afford flying. I believe Orilla would make the journey even longer.

I've been to neurologists who have agreed the spots on the brain are probably the reason for the numbness. I'm not so sure. I think the spots and the numbness may not be related. They were a coincidence that provided an explanation to the neurologists, who lacked any other evidence of possible causes. (This was what THEY said.) In any case, it hasn't gotten any wors and occasionally is a bit better. It does interfere with playing instruments a bit. (When you can't feel the holes on a pennywhistle or buttons on an accorion, it's a probalem.)

I once worked with a doctor who told me about an herbal headache preventative. While this doesn't fall into the realm of 'spirituality' it DOES involve trying something whose effectiveness (at that time) didn't have sufficient proof (only one study). It could have been labeled 'snake oil' by some. Why a doctor would recommend it, and I would try it:

1. Other patients of his had tried it, and it had worked.
2. There was information on its constituents which showed it wasn't harmful.
3. It didn't cost very much, so it wasn't financially harmful.

It worked, and I'm still taking it.

Since that time, its effectiveness has been proven and the reasons it works have been determined. The point is that, once upon a tine, people claimed it worked, there was no reason to believe it wasn't possible, and it did no harm. I don't count threatening someone's beliefs as 'harm'. Samuel Johnson's quote in Wolfgang's post might also be interpreted as "All wonder is the effect of finding something new." Same meaning/less cynicism.

With spiritual beliefs, I don't believe a person chooses these. They're conclusions based on what an individual thinks and feels. There's no way to prove one set of beliefs is right and another wrong, or we'd all believe the same things. When it comes to joining a group, religious or otherwise, one must look at whether they're likely to do more good than harm for the person doing the believing.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:58 AM

Make sure that the bear doesn't eat your hotdog.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

--Wolfgang

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 01:35 PM

All wonder is the effect of novelty on the ignorance. (Samuel Johnson)

--Wolfgang

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

--CarolC

Just wondered how it looks to quote someone quoting someone quoting someone. I like it. (you can quote me) ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:23 PM

What is this obsession with my hotdog?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:13 PM

Haven't you been advertising it as 100% meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:39 PM

Being at No 100 is an experience but not very spiritual. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:32 PM

Oh my. Now el ted is really going to be ticked...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 05:51 PM

Bengi is an immature and confused person, LH, mired in the quandaries of body-identity and unsure of hsi own physicality at that. Tor emedy this deep and agonizing confusion and th epain it inflicts, he has fixrd on male members and their male members as an obsession in the hopes this will "answer" the confusion and make it go away. It is a case of the cure being worse than the condition, as well as doing no real curing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 06:42 PM

Heh! I think Bengi oughta get some psychotherapy from Herr Liebenscheiss then. He's not ready to deal with the bears yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:43 PM

Jeri

I have the same numbness problem, right arm, right fingertips. I've found that a chinese product, ginko biloba (availabe in tablets or capsules from a chemist or health food shop) helps, as it works on circulation and gets blood to the far reaches of the bodý's universe. its also good for memory and brain function for the same reason.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 07:53 PM

real phenomena that we simply can't now, and perhaps never will, explain (Two Bears)

I haven't seen anything that's "unexplainable by today's knowledge" (Little Hawk)

Wolfgang (grin)


Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. Science is not the same thing as knowledge though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:37 PM

It all depends what you mean by "today's knowledge". When Wolfgang uses the phrase, it means one thing. When I use it, it means another. When Two Bears uses it, it might mean another.

There's a lot of knowledge out there, but people aren't all agreed on their interpretation of it.

They used to say "George has carnal knowledge of Mary", and it meant that he had had sex with Mary, therefore was aware of her in a physically intimate sense. It is my opinion that Wolfgang does not have carnal knowledge of Chi. Some people, however, do. (Chi being a form of vital energy.) Wolfgang HAS Chi, like everyone, but he is probably unaware of how to move it...or that it can be moved in order to heal another person, animal, or plant...or to heal oneself. That doesn't fit into his definition of "today's knowledge". It does fit into mine. It's totally obvious at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 08:41 PM

LOL-- they called ME a proselytizer-- biggest buncha pontificators I've ever seen.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit. If you're sick, see a doctor. Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:33 PM

LH, you'd recommend him over your Doktor Hahnhund?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

Carnal Chi... I highly recommend it. (Never thought to put that kind of name to it though. I always called it 'energy sex'.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:29 PM

Who???? Benji, whatever it is you're on you either need more or you need to stop NOW!

Anyway, does anyone seriously deny that a person needs vital energy in order to operate? Hmmm? That vital energy is simply called Chi in China, Ki in Japan, Prana in India, and a whole bunch of other things in other places. Duh!

How do you get vital energy? By breathing, eating wholesome food, and drinking water...and by some other more subtle methods. I can't help it if you folks are incapable of subtlety. :-)

This is not prosetylization, because it's not a religion. It's a study of the energetic system in living creatures. Matter of fact, it's a form of science that was known in Asia back when the Europeans were still giving each other the evil eye and burning "witches".

Now go sit in a corner, stop breathing and see how long your Chi lasts. Then tell me there's no such thing. Or don't drink water for a few days and see. Chi = vitality. Healthy practices build up Chi, unhealthy ones deplete it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:26 AM

If you stop breathing you will die because your body needs oxygen in order to release energy to keep it working. If you stop drinking you will die because your body needs water for many of the processs that are vital to life. These processes are extremely well understood and therefor there is no need to use a vague concept like "chi" to explain why we need them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:18 AM

Well I've seen plenty that's "unexplainable" using today's scientific methods and technology. (daylia)

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. (Samuel Johnson) (Who is this Johnson guy?)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:54 AM

Well ok Wolfgang, I know of no scientific explanation for the plenty I've seen that's "unexplainable". I know just enough science to have earned an honours BA in psychology. That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis - but Stephen Hawkings I ain't!

Now pardon me if I'm wrong, but your contributions don't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of either spirituality or life-force energy. In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

So, if you see hubris here, maybe there's a bit stuck in your eyelashes?   ;-)

daylia

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 08:32 AM

oops I see a couple problems with my last post that may invite attack from an on-site scientist or two, so I'll attempt to correct them now if I may ...

That included undergraduate level chemistry, biology, physics, analysis

To clarify, by "analysis" I meant analysis of scientific research data - (variables, statistics etc). Those were NOT my favorite courses, but I did learn it well enough to earn a bronze medal and the highest grade-point average of any part-time student at WLU to date. (Not to boast, just to let you know I'm not exactly a scientific slouch)

In fact, I get the impression that (like most Westerners) you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with it, and so know you know diddley-squat about it.

I meant I get the impression you've never witnessed, experienced or even experimented with generating and directing mana (Hawaiian for chi. That's what HUNA is all about - also Reiki, pranic healing, acupuncture etc. Mastering personal chi is the discipline, the "secret" behind all those seemingly miraculous physical feats accomplished by martial artists as well (Karate, Jiu Jitsu, Kung Fu). You certainly don't have to look too far to find hard physical evidence of the kinds of things martial artists can do - just visit your local dojo. There's one on every street corner these days.

Of course you've "experienced" life-force energy itself or you wouldn't be here, and no one would have the pleasure of knowing you at all!

Ok, all set? Lock and load ....   ;-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:02 AM

Daylia,

you try the 'you too' approach and fail to see the big difference between the two of us:

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough.

I just beg you to do the same if you do not know. My issue is with your 'unexplainable' for that is a much too bold claim.

However, if someone speaks about what she has seen or read or heard, it is not clear from the onset which could be a good explanation for that experience. It is not even clear whether there can be only one single explanation. So if someone claims that a certain experience requires the assumption that Chi has been at work, I do not need to know anything about Chi to state that another explanation works too. I only need to know about the other explanation.

Which of (perhaps many) alternative explanations for one experience is better that's a completely different thing and is a very subjective evaluation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Interesting article(sceptical) on chi here

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM

Good artical, and it makes clear some of the problems when discussing chi. People who seek to impress can often embellish things and give whatever their subject is a bad reputation. A quote from the artical: "Chi theory states that the function of the human body is based on a system of energy that circulates throughout all other existing systems and integrates with them all. There is no evidence that such a system exists."

'A system of energy... other than 'all other existing systems' is sort of like saying 'a thing other than all things', and is just a tad bit...'duh'. It also demonstrates a fundemental flaw some dubunkers can have: they don't WANT to see, so they don't try to understand, only find flaws. I don't believe in magical explanations, so I look for the earthly ones. I try to look a bit sideways at things.

I see chi as neurological 'energy', both chemical and electric, and the brain (and mind) is the most important componenent. People used to scoff when someone said they could slow their heartbeat, because it was controlled by the limbic system and couldn't be consciously affected. Well we DO have some conscious control. We can slow our heartbeats and respiration, expand or constrict blood vessels, releive or tolerate pain, etc. No one can yet explain exactly WHY a conscious mind can do these things, what the mechanism is, but it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:19 PM

I yet have to see one demonstration by a martial artist (in video or in reality) that is unexplainable by today's knowledge. A good start is the old book by Houdini, Miracle mongers and their methods, the last chapters about strongmen.

I have seen many things that are unexplainable by today's science happen under my hands.

1. I was at the laundry mat doing laundry, and I heard a lady (Tammy F.) scream outside. I went outside to ask her what was wrong. She said she had injured her hand at work two days before. Her index finger had been numb, and she had been unable to move her thumb for two days, and her doctor had reported that she HAD to have surgery to repair the tendons, muscles and nerves.

I picked up her laundry basket and carried it inside. After we got inside; I introduced myself as an energy healer, and offered to do a healing for her hand. She refused and said "I don't believe in any of that crap.". I said "if the energy does not help; it certainly will not hurt anything.". At this point she held her hand out. I did my deep breathing, then ggently held her hand between my hands, and I used the prayer picture of her using that hand to cut paper dolls for her daughter with a pair of scisors. About 30 seconds into the healing, she exclaimed "How do your hands get so hot?" I explained that it was the energy coming through me. About a minute into the healing' we both observed redness at the wrist, and began going up her arm. After sending energy into her hand for 3-4 minutes; I released her hand and asked how her hand felt. She moved her thumb gingerly and dropped her jaw in amazement. then she wiggled her thumb normaly and exclaimed "Damn! This is cool!" I defy you to define that by current science.

2. In 1980; I was diagnosed with a terminal disease, and was given 6-12 months to live. I went from riding a motorcycle to riding a wheelchair. I started directing this energy to my weakened back and legs. and 8 weeks later; I walked away from the wheelchair.

3. Last November I gave a HUNA workshop in Atlanta. Joy H (one of the attendees had injured her foot previously, and she appeared 70 years old. During one of the breaks; she asked me to do a healing on her foot. I did the deep breathing. and held her ankle. at first NOTHING happened. so I asked her what she enjoyed doing, and after a bit of coaxing; she smiled and said that she enjoyed dancing; so I changed the prayer picture from her walking pain free to dancing. After two or three minutes; there was a big smile on her face, and she said "Two Bears: I do not know what happened; but I felt something shift" Everyone saw Mrs. Hill Walk around the rest of the day pain free. After I finished teaching this spiritual technology; everyone received a healing. At the end of the day; Mrs. Hill appeared 20 years younger at the end of the day.

Both Daylia, and LH witnessed the incident with Mrs. Hill and more last November.

I can't take credit for the healings because I am NOT responsible for the healings. The higher powers, and the healee's subconscious (Unihipili) willing to receive a healing. The ONLY credit I can claim is gathering the energy and choosing a good prayer picture.

What I see there is a mixture of misdirection (make the onlooker overlook the vital details

That is your perception.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Whether something is "unexplainable" or not depends on who is trying to explain it. :-) Ultimately, nothing is unexplainable.

I've seen things that I couldn't exactly explain...but that doesn't mean they are forever unexplainable, does it?

For instance, I can't exactly explain how those AFO's (alien flying objects) I saw in the late 60's manuevered the way they did...in a technical sense. I can't explain their technology, because I don't know anything about it. I'm sure they, however, can explain it just fine.

I've met people who can explain Chi just fine...and demonstrate how it works...in a manner that is physically perceivable through normal sense perceptions. The fact that there is a Guest here who is so ignorant of it that he can blithely state that it doesn't even exist means diddly-squat to me. He simply doesn't know anything about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Samuel Johnson obviously never observed the birth of any of his offspring (if he had any).

Hear Hear! I could not agree more.

Aloha nui loa
2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:33 PM

Chi is chinese for bullshit.

If you want to believe that; be my guest.

If you're sick, see a doctor.

Absolutely!

Prayers, ginko biloba and chicken bones will do f*ck all to help.

Obviously; you do not understand prayer.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

Do I see hubris here? Daylia, I may do you wrong, but your contributions didn't give me the impression you have a deep knowledge of science. So if you see something for which you do not find a natural explanation how do you come to the conclusion that there is no scientific explanation instead of saying that you know of none? And even if you know that there is no scientific explanation yet what makes you state that what you have seen is 'unexplainable' (instead of merely 'yet unexplained')?

Daylia was referring to myself doing healings for her (from 2000 miles away), and my teaching her how to do energy work to punch a hole in a cloud three miles away. I defy science to explain punching a hole in a cloud, or remote healing.

I have been doing energy work for more than 30 years, and have a folder FULL of testimonials of remote healing, passing distance Reiki attunements, etc.

What part of the country do you live in? If you are nearby; (I live in Tennessee) you are welcome to come over and see my assorted certificates, and read some of those testimonials.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 03:21 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:06 PM

Because I have no deep knowledge of Chi and other theoretical concepts in the realm of spirituality ...

Life force energy is not a "concept in the realm of spirituality". It is a very real and physical force, just like gravity - which is also invisible but very real. It's what makes you and I and trees and bears different than rocks, Wolfgang.

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

But in order to work with spiritual life-force energy - which is infinitely more powerful than the physical or mental "voltages" - one is required to work on personal spiritual development, not just physical or mental.

I never would even try to correct you or Two Bears or whoever when you speak about Chi. I never would make a statement like 'Chi cannot explain...' because I do not know enough

Well good for you, Wolfgang! I do know that science has yet to produce the methods or technology necessary for studying life-force energy of any "voltage" level - physical, mental or spiritual. If such a technology had been developed and approved by scientific community, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

Our kids would be teaching us about it.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: skarpi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM

Halló all, I wanna say this , love him ,prey for him and most of all
things stay on to be his best friend, be there for him.
All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM

You don't need to be interested in spirituality at all to work with physical or mental chi. I've yet to meet a sensei (master/teacher of martial arts like Karate) who qualifies for sainthood. Physical and mental life-force energy or chi is the driving force behind accomplishments like chopping a cement block in half with one blow from a bare hand.

Martial artists generate a surcharge of physical life-force energy first (through exercise), then direct that energy toward their goal using simply will and intent. All that's required to chop a cement block in half with your bare hand is a reasonably healthy physique and a highly trained, disciplined and focused mind. Plus the willingness to work with an invisible force like life-force energy, of course.

Ker-ist. I just can't stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:21 PM

Ker-ist. I just don't under stand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 05:59 PM

USe the Force, TBPL. Use the Force. All will become clear to you!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:08 PM

But only if I believe it will ... where's Dumbo's feather when you need it ...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:11 PM

An appropriate request....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 07:07 PM

I've done the cloud thing too...but I didn't punch holes in them, I made them gradually vanish (over a period of say, a minute or two). I did it with smaller clouds, because I didn't have enough confidence to take on the big ones, so I just made little clouds vanish. This was way back in the late 70's. It takes focus and concentration. Anyone who's got those, plus a little confidence, can do it. Most people don't imagine they can do it, so they don't try it...or if they do (at someone's suggestion) they don't try it with any confidence whatsoever...and accordingly the results match their expectations...perfectly. Nothing happens. :-) It kind of works that way with most things in life.

I agree completely LH; my brother.

There are some of us that mess with the really BIG clouds.

Does anyone remember Hericane Lili that was a category 4 hurricane, and the weather experts were expecting Lili to go up to a category 5 storm when it was over the warm water in the gulf of mexico. Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. Before Lili reached land; it was downgraded to a tropical storm. That is a fact of history.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 09:44 PM

He that will enjoy the brightness of sunshine, must quit the coolness of the shade. - Samuel Johnson

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM

Well, that is certainly an intriguing quote...

Regarding belief and accomplishment...there are generally several things required in order to do something difficult.

1. Have the intention to do it.
2. Learn the technique through practice and discipline over a period of time. You start with easier stuff, move toward harder stuff.
3. Be in good enough health so that you have enough strength and energy available to do it.
4. Focus the mind properly on the task.
5. Believe...no, don't just believe, but KNOW you can do it.

Just belief alone is not enough. That's why it takes years of training and hard work to be a good martial artist, and why very few people can break a cement block with their bare hands. A few people can do it. They didn't get there just by believing they could, but belief is a important part of it.

It isn't a technique I have any facility in, because I have never practiced such a technique or aspired toward it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:38 PM

Big hot yellow thing in the sky today, and I don't care for it.

--LR Mole

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:16 AM

Little Hawk, did you pose for those sketches on the skeptical page link that the honourable Guest posted about China, Chi, and Chicanery.

Are you the one banging your head or the one Chiing your hotdog?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:25 AM

A guy said to Samuel Johnson, "Dr. Johnson, you smell!"

Johnson replied, "Incorrect, Sir, you smell me, and I stink!"

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:58 AM

This is an interesting article about Traditional Chinese Medicine, chi and the regulation of therapies like acupuncture in BC, Canada.

here's a quote - Traditional Chinese medicine and modern, science-based medicine are diametrically opposed when it comes to their platforms of investigation. Science-based medicine is based on knowledge (acquired through the scientific method) about physiology and the body's response to external factors, such as viruses or bacteria.

Conversely, traditional Chinese medicine follows the belief that every living thing contains a life-force called qi (pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

With any therapy, there's always going to be some effect on people's perception of their illness," he says, "but in terms of whether or not things are actually getting better from a biological point of view, that remains to be demonstrated."

Although I certainly understand the need for scientific methods of investigation and gov't regulation of traditional therapies like acupuncture, I highly suspect that part of Oppel's problem with alternative therapies is simply the racism that's been part of BC's history for well over a century.

I lived on Vancouver Island for the good part of a year, and sadly enough I witnessed that racism many, many times - even among my own family. :-( There is an ever-growing multitude of "Asian-Canadians" on the West Coast, and unfortunately they are still highly resented for taking precious jobs and business away from the whites, as they have been since the late 1800's.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Now, I suppose people like Oppel would discount Mike's experience. After all, they'd have to dissect his spinal cord before and after the treatments in order to "prove" scientifically that any kind of change had occurred - and that would certainly make him a paraplegic. They couldn't possibly just take Mike's word for it - his subjective experiences with his pain, the acupuncture and HUNA don't meet the rigid criteria of scientific investigation. While it's understandable from a scientific point of view, in real life this just seems so ridiculous!

Now Mike doesn't care one way or the other what scientists think - he just knows that HUNA and acupuncture did for him what the best of Western medicine could not. HUNA and acupuncture - plus a change of occupation - cured that sciactic nerve and relieved him of that horrible debilitating pain. He's back to his old self - off the heavy drugs, boating and hunting and chopping wood and gardening - without a twinge of pain in his back. He looks about 20 years younger than he did last Christmas.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:21 AM

Bengi - I don't know. I haven't seen the sketches. If it's a dashingly handsome guy who bears a strong resemblance to Bob Dylan in the late 70's (circa Street-Legal), then it could be me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:25 AM

Why do we keep thinking of that Johnny Cash song?

First time I shot her I shot her in the side
Hard to watch her suffer
But with the second shot she died
daylia's gone, one more round daylia's gone

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:27 AM

That's "Delia". You an early riser, Bengi?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: bengi
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:36 AM

Early, where in the world are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:55 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

I defy you to define that by current science. (Two Bears)

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have checked all possible explanations and found all of them wanting. So you could tell us which explanations you have checked by which methods and by which way you have convinced yourself that none of the many possible normal explanations doesn't fit.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you have witnessed something you do explain to yourself by the concept of Chi, but your use of the word 'unexplainable' is overbearing. You don't seem to have a clue what alternative explanations are possible.

I could list some explanations but to do so from afar has a big disadvantage: The probability to be far off is quite high. My experience is that quite often effects as they are reported are indeed unexplainable by today's science, but the effects as they have actually happened are often explainable. She who reports an effect with a certain frame of mind or prejudice can unwillingly distort the report according to her theoretical expectations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 09:20 AM

And so can he, Wolfgang - especially when he's been culturally conditioned from first grade onwards to discount anything that Western science has yet to "prove".

Why are you so eager to support any explanation other than an "Eastern" or (heaven forbid!) a "spiritual" one? Especially when, by your own accounts, you have no knowledge or practical first-hand experience with either?

Please don't get me wrong - I have no personal interest in your opinions or your reasons for them. I just think it may benefit you to ponder my question, and I do enjoy helping others.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:16 AM

Sure, unexplainable phenomena happen all the time... and western science is always playing catch up... It is relatively new to the human condition, especially when compared to traditional Chinese anythings...

We all have a lot to learn.

What I find so offensive in some of this thread, is the use of 'tricks' to substatiate an individdle's 'in touchness' with superior powers. Any notion of personal superiority will not eminate from the personality of a Shaman... Arrogance and egotistic posturing are physical manifestations of dark energy and psychic poverty... definitely not from higher stages of enlightenment.

But what is most disturbing of all, is the psychopathic's tendency to try to use this self aggrandizing prattle to menacing ends. Yikes! It is so obvious!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

Our perceptions are influenced by our beliefs and fears. What appears offensive to one person is not so to another. Strong reactions indicate strong opinions, but they do not necessarily have any connection or relation to the person being reacted to.

That's why juries are told never to follow their "hunches" or gut instinct. Because those hunches are often emotional reactions and biases. None of us knows how shaman "should" behave (how many of us have met one?) - people have different attributes. Two bears has made it clear that he is not a guru, that he faciltates a process, and he does not charge money. So he does not have to be perfect. I am more suspicious of people who project as "holy" and saintly. They can be very manipulative.

who can cast a stone?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:33 AM

(pronounced 'chee'). Proponents of TCM believe qi flows through the body through a system of 12 meridians (or channels) that connect to different organs in the body...

Daylia; my sister. There are 12 PRIMARY meridians, that supply ch'i to the organs. Heart, spleen, stomach, liver, etc. But there are hundreds of smaller meridians that transfer ch'i to the rest of the physical body.

In order to restore balance and health, doctors of TCM (as they will now be called in B.C.) employ a number of methods, including acupuncture, herbal medicine, Qigong, Tui Na and exercise therapy such as Tai Ji. TCM is purported to relieve a multitude of ailments, including chronic fatigue, arthritis, PMS, high blood pressure, bronchitis, acne...the list is considerable...

I have no disagreement with any of this material.

Oppel heads the Alternative Therapy Evaluation Committee, a free-standing evaluative body, and is also president of Canadians for Rational Health Policy, a group whose aim is to ensure that health policies are developed based on reliable scientific evidence. His qualms with so-called 'alternative' therapies like TCM stem from the lack of scientific evidence supporting their claims.

I wish to add two cents here.

1. In my opinion; anyone with medical problems should go to a medical doctor for diagnosis and medication, but after they do that there is nothing wrong with adding alternative healing modalities to speed up the process of healing.

2. If an alternative healing practitioner tells you to throw the medication away; RUN don't walk, and report them to the authorities.

About acupuncture - My life-long friend Mike ran a concrete business for years. Working concrete is very hard on the back. Last year he developed a sciactic nerve problem that was so bad he barely walk and couldn't even straighten his back. He looked like an old man, all hunched over in constant pain - and he's only 42. The doctors had him on so many drugs he couldn't see or think straight, and he was still in constant pain.

They could do little else for him - except recommend acupuncture. He took a couple treatments, and there was an improvement but he was still in constant pain.

Now Mike was never interested in anything "spiritual" and always teased me to no end about my interest in natural healing and energy work. But that pain was so bad last Christmas he finally called me in desperation and asked me to work on his back with HUNA.

So I called Two Bears and we both worked on him. I used HUNA to send him energy every day for about a week. He felt enough of an improvement within a day or two to stop taking the drugs, which was a good thing! I recommended that he continue with the acupuncture treatments to speed up the clearing of blocked energy from his nervous system, which he did. After two more treatments, the pain was gone. Absolutely gone! Mike was one happy camper, believe me. He will never doubt again the effectiveness of either HUNA or acupuncture.

Mike doesn't work concrete full-time anymore, but a friend twisted his arm a month ago to pour a basement as a weekend job. Mike couldn't turn down the money he was offered, and did the job - and came home with that sciactic nerve problem flaring up again. He suffered all weekend, finally called me on the Monday asking for help again. I worked on him with HUNA (at a distance), and he saw his acupuncturist the next day for a treatment.

The pain was gone by Tues night. I was over there the next morning, watching him chop wood, so happy for my friend!

Daylia: Thank you for reporting this incident.

WHen Western medicine finally catches up with the practical knowledge that's been around for thousands of years in Eastern cultures, that will be a VERY good thing!

Actually; the knowledge of thus subtle lifeforce energy was known all over the world.

Here are some of the assorted names used for it by assorted cultures.

akasha (Edgar Cayce), animal magnetism (Frank Anton Mesmer),ch'i or qi (China), chiah (Jewish Kabbalists), itaki (Pueblo Indians), ki (Japan), mana (Hawai'ians), manitou (Osage Indians), nuwati (Cherokee Indians), orenda (Seneca Indians), orgone (Wilhelm Reich), prana (India and Tibet), etc.

I just wanted the readers to understand the understanding and manipulation of lifeforce energy is not just something from the East.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:52 AM

Well the storm weakened to a category 2 storm within 24 hours after we started working on it. (Two Bears)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Unconvincing for many reasons.

Wolfgang: it is notpost hoc ergo propter hoc.

After you see things like this happen repeatedly; you lose doubt and know there is something to the direction of this energy.

Two Bears, you are the one who claims that some things you report are unexplainable by today's science. That means you claim to have

By todays accepted science? ABSOLUTELY NOT EXPLAINABLE!

The theory of quantum mechanics (when it becomes accepted) will explain this type of phenomena. Methinks you should read Dr. Stephen Hawking, Dr. Michio Kaku, et all. I would HIGHLY recommend you start with the book "Hyperspace" by Dr. Kaku then go from there.

I still have the impression you claim a knowledge upon that field which you do not have, My guess is that you use the word 'unexplainable' just for impression management and not as the end result of serious study. I wouldn't mind at all you saying you

Then; let's agree to disagree.

Apparently I will never convince you, and I know that you will NEVER convince me to deny the things that I have seen happen with my own eyes.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:05 PM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped? Hmm. Interesting question. My guess is that yes, it can, providing a large enough measure of Chi was directed at the area. I said that's my GUESS. I am merely theorizing about it. Nothing that we think of as solid is in fact solid at the subatomic level, but it appears solid to our sense perceptions. Therefore I suspect that subtle energy can be used to alter solid matter, including bones, by altering the energy patters which that apparently solid matter is made out of. It would require knowing how to manage that subtle energy in a focused enough way, that's all. Very few people have mastered such expertise, but I suspect such things have been done from time to time.

Why do you ask, Carol?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:06 PM

I'm in Ontario, Canada, Bengi. Where are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM

What I find so offensive in some of this thread, is the use of 'tricks' to substatiate an individdle's 'in touchness' with superior powers. Any notion of personal superiority will not eminate from the personality of a Shaman... Arrogance and egotistic posturing are physical manifestations of dark energy and psychic poverty... definitely not from higher stages of enlightenment.

But what is most disturbing of all, is the psychopathic's tendency to try to use this self aggrandizing prattle to menacing ends. Yikes! It is so obvious!

TTR:

You are so far off base that is is hysterical.

I am not tricking ANYONE. All I am doing; is trying to help raise the blinders on people (put there by the church, and accepted scientific theory)

I am neither arrogant or egotistical. I am NOTHING special. Almost Anyone could do the same thing if they opened their mind and heart and applied this spiritual technology.

There is no such thing as dark energy. Energy is simply energy. How the person chooses to apply the energy is what makes it white or dark. Electricity flowing in the walls of your house can take life , or when used properly; in the medical profession; speed up the healing of bones. The same ax can be used to chop wood or kill someone, ad nauseum.

How am I being self aggrandizing? I have a regular job to pay the bills, I do healings free, I do charge for workshops; but to cover the cost of transportation, food and lodging.

How is that self aggrandizement? I am just trying to teach people how special they really are, and how to tap into this lifeforce energy to improve their phusical, mental, emotional, and spiritual lives.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:23 PM

LH, most of the energy work I've had done has had short-term beneficial results, but it hasn't been possible to get long term results because I have some deformed bones in my neck causing a misalignment of my neck which in turn, causes one of the discs in my neck to protrude, pressing on my spinal cord. This causes a disruption in the energy flow from my head to the rest of my body.

This energy disruption causes a lot of problems for me physically, as well as making me easily overloaded with energy. I believe you've seen it happen. Remember the time when I was up in Orillia and you and hesp had come over for dinner and we did a little bit of hesp's kind of dancing? Remember how I suddenly got dizzy and had to sit down with my head down between my knees? This problem has also sometimes caused me to experience bad results when people have attempted to do energy work on me. For instance, making me vomit or become very, very dizzy.

So it would seem that in my case, in order to get lasting results from any sort of energy work, I'll need to address the problem of the misshapen bones. In the meantime, I do have someone who does energy work on me as needed to help to offset some of the problems created by the energy blockage in my neck, but it's always short-term help.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:30 PM

Yes, I see, Carol. Well, I don't doubt that there are ways to heal that, but I can't promise you anything on it. We shall see.

Thomas - Two Bears is about as dangerous as a goldfish. Thanks anyway, for giving me a real good chuckle this morning. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:47 PM

Your hysteria predated any input from me, 'Twa Bears'... ;^)

Look... Your posts are seething with an almost vulgar need to toot your own horn... and then you childishly claim that 'you don't care' what others think. I've met a lot of pretenders to spirituallity... and these are some of the most blatent signs. So... big deal... you have work to do, just like the rest of us.

BTW... I am no expert in these matters... but in my personal experience, the only people who have asserted that there is no such thing as negative energy, have been those that are oblivious to their own use of it.

I am glad that you are able to heal others, Twa Bears... and I wish you all the best in doing so. Please do not forget to do your own personal healing too... And do not forget, that someone out there may be able to heal you, and make you a better, more enlightened being.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:49 PM

Our perceptions are influenced by our beliefs and fears. What appears offensive to one person is not so to another. Strong reactions indicate strong opinions, but they do not necessarily have any connection or relation to the person being reacted to.

I agree completely.

As we are civilized by our parents or guardians, authority figures, and other friends; young children do not want to be thought of as weird by talking of real experiences they have or had, then after time passes; they accept the idea that those experiences were fignents of an overactive imagination, then their unihipili (sub conscious mind) begins building a set of walls that limit the type of material that will be passed through to the Uhane (conscious mind), and people are litterally inside a box.

I just want to help people tear down those walls, so they can reclaim the powerful spiritual being they were intened to be.

Two bears has made it clear that he is not a guru, that he faciltates a process, and he does not charge money. So he does not have to be perfect. I am more suspicious of people who project as "holy" and saintly. They can be very manipulative.

Freda: Thank you for the kind words.

I am neither a guru, a saint, or holy. I am simply a human being who is doing the best he can one day at a time.

If I am a holy person; then God must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

In my youth; I was horribly physically and mentally abused by my guardians. They were devout Baptists, and it was like this child from another planet was placed in their care. They thought ALL mystical, psychic, etc gifts were Satanic, and they did their best to beat Satan out of me. 40 years later; I still have several knots and scars on my body where I was burned with cigarettes, peaten with broom handles, iron pokers, and anything else they could get their hands on.

Their worldview, and religious indoctrination had forced them to perceive such gifts were EVIL, and I suffered because of their indoctrination.

From the abuse I received at home, the abuse and torture I received at school because I was weird; I became a walking/talking nightmare. When I was only 10 years old the school dictated that I learn martial arts "So that young man can learn some self control and self discipline. All the martial arts did was turn an SOB into a dangerous SOB. I left three of my school teachers, and hundreds of classmates lying in the floor. I became the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not get away with it. In my youth; I came close to killing people.

When I was 18 and in college; I took a course Taoist meditation. A few weeks later; Tsang (my meditation teacher) saw the grumpy old Bear side of my nature just about take a classmate apart.

Tsang took me to his home where we had a 90 minute chat about my anger, hostility, bad attitudem etc and he did all of the talking. At the end of the chat; he decided yo break his oath, and teach an American (Qigong) instead of doing nothing and watching me destroy myself.

When Tsang started talking about ch'i the all pervading energy in the universe; I thought he was the biggest crachpot ever to walk the earth, then when he started talking about the more esoteric subjects such as directing the energy to punch a hole in a cloud, influence the weather for a wind to come up, influence the movement of wild animals, etc, I could not stand it any more, and I asked him to prove it. BELIEVE ME; HE PROVED IT!.

31 years ago; if Tsang were to tell me that I would be doing what I am doing now; I would have asked where I could buy some of whatever he was smoking!

Well two years after I began energy work; I reached the realization that every day; I was gives a choice (how I would affect the world around me) to either be a positive or a negative influence. I began consciously choosing to be a positive influence, and I am no longer the miserable excuse for a human being; that I used to be.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: hesperis
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:58 PM

I dunno, goldfish can be slippery. *grin*

Anyway, when I was 12, I started learning guitar. I also had a growth spurt at that time, and ended up with certain body adjustments that make it easier to play guitar. I don't play guitar anymore and the body adjustments that happened sometimes get in the way of doing other things.

My left shoulder bone is slightly smaller than the right one, giving me much less flexibility there. The fingers of my left hand are larger than the right, because I was stretching to hit notes that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to hit, and I can stretch them even farther. The right side of my torso is slightly elongated compared to the left, this happened to make it easier to curve my body over the body of an acoustic guitar.

My left shoulder often hurts and gets tense and has "crack" sounds when I relieve the tension. It is always in more pain and tension than the right shoulder is.

If the body can shape itself in a growth spurt in order to fit a guitar better, rather than from any genetic prompting, then life energy can definitely shape bones.

I only lately realized that the WAY in which I wasn't symmetrical was caused by that growth spurt and facilitated playing guitar. I was very symmetrical before that.

It would probably take a lot of life energy to reshape an adult bone since it took a growth spurt to reshape me.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:01 PM

Can HUNA change the way bones are shaped?

Aloha Carol; my sister.

The short answer is yes; but.

The long answer is because it would require the use of spiritual lifeforce energy (mana loa), the higher powers willingness to help, and it would require the person's subconscious mind (unihipili) willingness to be healed.

The higher powers could easly heal people against their will; but they do not; because they will not violate a person's free will to be sick.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:13 PM

Look... Your posts are seething with an almost vulgar need to toot your own horn... and then you childishly claim that 'you don't care' what others think. I've met a lot of pretenders to spirituallity... and these are some of the most blatent signs. So... big deal... you have work to do, just like the rest of us.

Hello Thomas.

1. The name is Two Bears. it speaks volumes about you; that you do not have the simple courtesy to spell my name correctly

2. How have I been vulgar?

3. How is it tooting my own horn to wake people up and teach them they could do the very same thing only if they are willing to apply themself?

4. Of course I still have work to do. I never said that I did not have work to do; and you did not ask.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:21 PM

LH, most of the energy work I've had done has had short-term beneficial results, but it hasn't been possible to get long term results because I have some deformed bones in my neck causing a misalignment of my neck which in turn, causes one of the

Aloha nui loa Carol:

I will be in Canada next week. Perhaps you could come over when I am there. I will let Daylia and LH work out the details.

If you are unable to meet me when I am there; I would be happy to help however I can via distance. Just PM or E-Mail me.

I teach the basics of HUNA free of charge on my website. HUNA On my website; it has a link to send me an E-Mail, and my E-mail address that you may copy into your mail program.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Thanks LH and hesperis.

Interesting answer, Two Bears. Interesting, also, is the way I got the deformities in the bones of my neck. It was from climbing up on our piano and falling off of it, landing on my head, when I was between the ages of one and two years old.. And I didn't just do it once. According to my mother, I just kept doing it over and over and over. Talk about determination, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:26 PM

Looks like we crossposted, Two Bears. I'm not in Orillia now. I'm in Alabama. I'll have a look at your stuff and get back to you. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:31 PM

Looks like we crossposted, Two Bears. I'm not in Orillia now. I'm in Alabama. I'll have a look at your stuff and get back to you. Thanks.

Carol:

Sorry; but I thougt you were still in Orillia.

I live just up the road in Tennessee. Perhaps; one day; we can meet.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:43 PM

I had an experience similar to Hesperis' in that I also reshaped my body...in a very unaware fashion. I developed the habit of carrying stuff (schoolbooks, mostly) slung against my left hip when I was in my early teens, and did it right through to the end of my schooling. The result? A formerly quite symmetrical body got reshaped into one with pronounced scoliosis (curvature of the spine), a shorter right leg (by about 1/4 inch), and accompanying misalignment of hip bones, shoulders, neck, etc....all of which have since caused me to get quite a bit of muscle tension and weakness on the left side of my back muscles. I am slowly working on retraining and balancing this body that I unwittingly sculpted out of shape when I was young and growing. It can be retrained, but it takes time and diligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:13 PM

I have read through all the posts in this thread and have to wonder where all this anger is coming from, Thomas? Two bears has shown nothing but humility. He has offered to help anyone who wishes his help and accepts your skepticism. How is it that you alone find him arrogant? Think about it.

A couple of years back I posted on Mudcat about some disturbing "talents" I had that I also had no control over. I was met with ridicule. Why is it so hard to for some of us to handle phenomena that for the moment we don't have the science to explain? No one is asking you to believe or even accept. Why so angry?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 04:07 PM

Sinsull... If you are reading humility in Twa Bears posts, you are seeing something there that I just don't. The last couple are a good start...

I'm not angry.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:47 PM

I do not see arrogance or ego or a need to "toot one's own horn" and except for you no one else seems to either. Wolfgang has challenged Two Bears' statements but hasn't resorted to name calling. For someone who is not angry, you are doing a pretty good job of feigning anger.

Why for instance do you insist on mispelling his name?

I too have an utter contempt for people who claim to have a hotline to god. I was raised Roman Catholic and from the age of 9 questioned the concept that only priests and only men had that right or ability. Two Bears hasn't made that claim as far as I can see. He has said that he trained to learn how to channel energy and that any of us can achieve the same. If anyone is interested, he has offered his help as he was offered help when he needed it.

Maybe I need to rephrase my question: Why are you so vehement in questioning Two Bears' abilities and motives?

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:25 PM

I too have an utter contempt for people who claim to have a hotline to god. I was raised Roman Catholic and from the age of 9 questioned the concept that only priests and only men had that right or ability. Two Bears hasn't made that claim as far as I can see. He has said that he trained to learn how to channel energy and that any of us can achieve the same. If anyone is interested, he has offered his help as he was offered help when he needed it.

Sinsull; you read my posts correctly.

Each and everyone of us have guidance and help if we work with the higher powers.

The "Christians" call this link to the divine "Guardian angels", the American Indians call them "Totem animals or spirit helpers", The Occultists called them the Holy Guardian angel, The Jewish Kabbalists called them Neshamah, The Hawai'ians called them the 'Aumakua, etc.

All one needs to do; is do the inner work to bring the subconscious and conscious mind together in harmony; so these spirit powers may work through us.

I am NOT saying the Hawai'ian way is the ONLY way, or even the BEST way. I am ONLY saying that this path really works (if one is willing to apply the spiritual technology).

Eastern philosophy and spirituality GREATLY halped me turn my life around; but it was ONLY HUNA that helped me bring my subconscious and conscious minds together in harmony, and clear the mental complexes and fixations that was severely draining my lifeforce. Then I could begin to witness these things happen.

ALN - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:43 PM

May the path you take lead you to goodness.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:52 PM

May the path you take lead you to goodness.

Thank you Thomas.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:54 PM

I don't think that Thomas the Rhymer needs defending but I surmise, Sinsul, that you haven't read some of the Two_Bears other posts- I know TtR has. The persona that TBear assumes in those other posts is as different from this one as day from night, love from contempt, insight from blindness. IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Two_bears
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:05 PM

I don't think that Thomas the Rhymer needs defending but I surmise, Sinsul, that you haven't read some of the Two_Bears other posts- I know TtR has. The persona that TBear assumes in those other posts is as different from this one as day from night, love from contempt, insight from blindness. IMO

Ebbie:

I made statements, and people did not take the time to read and attempt to understand where I was coming from. People simply flew off the handle and reacted, and ASSUMED I was speaking about ALL Iraqi people. I reached those conclusions AFTER reading BOTH sides of the debate, and viewing the satellite images.

Ebbie: I am a simple person, and I speak plainly. I do not waste time to use flowery but meaningless words.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: *daylia*
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:08 PM

He has Gemini rising - the sign of the Twins, of duality. Isn't it obvious? Just breathe deep and ponder his handle ...

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM

I hadn't seen the other thread. I see I have stumbled into an ongoing disagreement. Carry on, guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Spirituality
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jul 04 - 01:37 AM

Having fun Little Hawk? ...snicker...;^)