This week's phony terrorist alert

Subject: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:26 PM

I would like to see a graph of John Kerry's poll ratings related to the sudden release of new phony terrorist alerts. I love the latest one -- new information from a hard drive about big buildings in New York put together in 2000-2001! Those pesky terrorists, who can fathom their thinking, sure needs the CIA to do some deep work here, you bet. Gee, I wonder if the financial district of New York and famous buildings in Washington could be targets? Naah. Why the World Trade Centre was in Yellowstone National Park, everyone knows that.

This is so pathetic.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:34 PM

If I was a terrorist, I would be amused right now to see just how much damage can be done by doing nothing except 'leaking' possible threats and costing us MUCH time & money....

No doubt they would also do us more REAL damage if they could...but getting "homeland security" to scurry about randomly must also be sorta satisfying.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:39 PM

I think the "leaking" most likely comes from the White House.
Nothing like a few terror stories to concentrate the mind...Ake

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:46 PM

Stay tuned for more "dirty tricks".


..xx..e

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 12:55 PM

What is most amusing is the late-breaking news given by "high-ranking officials" who are being paid a lot to scare everyone. What is this late-breaking news? Terrorists are seriously interested in disrupting the American elections (officials are concerned about attacks on polling places, one article reads)!! They are trying to repeat the Madrid attacks!!! They are interested in car and truck bombs, because these have worked in Saudi Arabia!!!!!They have not lost interest in aviation!!!!!!!!Gosh, who would have thunk it?

A fourth grader who reads the papers could figure out these flashes of insight.

I particularly liked the Senate Majority Leader (Bill Frist, Rep) letting the cat out of the bag -- the information from their top level secret briefing was "very non-specific"!

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:28 PM

Is the beginning of developing a rationale for "postponing" election day?

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 02:31 PM

From the New York Times this morning:

August 3, 2004
THE OVERVIEW

Reports That Led to Terror Alert Were Years Old, Officials Say
By DOUGLAS JEHL and DAVID JOHNSTON

WASHINGTON, Aug. 2 -Much of the information that led the authorities to raise the terror alert at several large financial institutions in the New York City and Washington areas was three or four years old, intelligence and law enforcement officials said on Monday. They reported that they had not yet found concrete evidence that a terrorist plot or preparatory surveillance operations were still under way.

clint

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 05:55 PM

PoppaGator:

It may well begin to establish that people should vote by phone as opposed to go to a polling station where there would be a paper record of the votes.

If the US thinks it can protect itself from attack without clamping down on the entire civilian population it's wrong. Very wrong.

We saw it in Quebec years back. IMHO.

However, if I was an American, I would be starting to have serious concerns about a takeover. Something "don't look right."

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:01 PM

Much agreed with the above---my letter to the Times--hoping for publication in the next day or so. No guarantees, but there were a slew of letters today on the subject.



To the Editor:

    With all the lengthy news coverage and press conferences one has to wonder why. If the authorities know the problem should they not confront it in such a way to minimize public panic and avoid economic and social disruptions? I am hard pressed to find how, after Mayor Bloomberg's press conference, one can respond. His thesis---scare the hell out of everyone and then tell them to just go about their "business".    Echoes of Tom Ridge and Geo. W Bush.


      Up to this point we were given color coded warnings and no specific information. Now we get specifics just before the Republican Convention.    Pres. Bush opposed the original 9/11 commission and now quickly embraces their findings in the most public manner.

    Candidate Kerry will not say that these warnings also serve a political purpose for the President. He won't say it for good reason. It would be a no win situation---terror alert is the President's strong suite. All the polls seem to show that.    The sad part is that it is an issue that is only brought to the fore when Pres. Bush needs it. Otherwise we hear only generalities and belligerence from the incumbent or through his other voice---VP Cheney.

   Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:05 PM

I found it fascinating, having just read Friday's CNN article on how fear of death affects voters (here).

Coincidence, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:09 PM

I sorta like Bloomberg's advice on how to best defy the terrorists--take your family to Athens for the Olympics!

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:14 PM

Question: How many Americans have serious thoughts that the present administration my try to pull off a coup d'etat?

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 06:28 PM

As mentioned in another thread, Bin Laden and Bush both need each other. Bush needs that ambiguous enemy to distract from his failed presidency, and he plays his part well in being the western bogeyman that Islamic terrorists need to whip up the fervor among their recruits. Curiously, neither "side" needs to do much more of consequence. As also mentioned, periodic leaks of "intent" from the terrorists is sufficient to cause the US to scramble in all sorts of costly ways.

And even if no more terrorists are ever caught, these periodic alerts, whether based on actual current information or not are sufficient to keep us focused on fear to the exclusion of all the other things that are either not happening that should or happening that shouldn't be.

I am afraid that I do not see any way out of this that involves any of the current players.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 07:15 PM

Two comments: 1) I think it's wonderful that the Bush Administration is finally reading and paying attention to intelligence that came out before 9/11.

2)In all seriousness, I believe that a lot of this "terrorist alert" is to pave the way for for banning all demonstrations and protests in NYC during the Repub convention.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 08:45 PM

Local SF columnist Jon Carroll is currently running a contest to "Guess the October Surprise." One favorite is that Bin Laden is already in custody in Pakistan and will be trotted out just before the election.

I would not be at all surprised if Bush wanted to do something like postpone the election, but I doubt it will work. Nixon apparently looked into postponing the '72 election, but was advised against it. I mean, after all, we managed to hold an election in the middle of the Civil War!

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 09:10 PM

Up to this point I had never considered such a thing---election postponments. As Dylan wrote---The Times They Are a Changing. Who would have thunk it (Greg Brown).

A frightening time fraught with the type of things that were never envisioned by the framers of the nation.   I, for one, do worry about the Bush dynasty wanting to procreate and become the Big Brother of Orwell's vision.   

Kerry is Kerry---but he is also not Bush. Close in background but surely the best alternative until next time.   Gosh----HST and WJC where are you when we need you---HST is in heaven and WJC--Letterman. What a sorry state. Can we channel FDR? Or, perhaps, even DDE?

Amazing how we have "leaders" that are nothing more than sound bytes anymore---and some (W) that do not even sound lucid.   Substance left debates after Adlai---you can get as much from the Maytag commercials that you get from the politicos. Platitudes and sound bytes.

I await the, hopefully, coming, debates. Should be interesting. I await W in his finest form of oratory.   As you see---I expect little---Kerry should win that in a landslide---but a few more terror alerts can even the field for W.



Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: MAG
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 09:13 PM

I for one think "they" have explored the possibility of a coup. They want to take us back to pre New Deal days, and the right wing of the day made a serious attempt in the 30's. They picked the wrong retired general to tap as a front man. He was so disgusted he blew the qhistle big time. I believe his name was Omar Bradley??

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 09:27 PM

peedeecee hit the nail square on the head... Upwards of a quarter of a million folks are planning to protest the Repub convention and talk about "no bounch"... Bush will go the wrong way if that happens and then the few folks whp make up the swing voters, who apparently will get the election close enough for the Supremes to grant Bush another 4 years on a 5-4 vote, may get ehough doubts about what a fine job Bush is doing and really mess things up for the occupiers. You know, like vote in large enough numbers against Bush so that it won't be close enough for stealing. That would be a disaster for Bush and his boyz are terribly concerned aboput a repeat of Chicago in '68 with moms and pops and kids on TV with their heads busted open and blood flowing down their faces...

Yup, peedeecee, is right on top of this one!

Bobert

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: MAG
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 09:48 PM

A thousand pardons; the above was Smedley Butler. I remembered it was a fairly unusual name. Did you ever read about HIM in your history books??

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:03 PM

Excerpts from a speech S Butkler gave in 1933. It is worth reading.

Google      smedley butler   or    www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.


It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:05 PM

Thanks, MAG. I'd never heard of him before. No surprise that Washington wouldn't want his name in mainstream history books. Can't let the population be hearing this now, can we?

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:16 AM

Keeping the population quiet by making pronouncements about the 'enemy'....

George Orwell from his personal experience, foresaw much of this in 1947 when he wrote "1984" - you should read it. I would not be surprised if it is not encouraged to be on US school reader lists...

"Animal Farm" was another product of life's political experience.

You should read both of these - or if it's been a while - reread them - don't bother with the film - except the full length (not cut down version) cartoon of Animal Farm - which is pretty close.


Robin

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: DougR
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 01:17 AM

And who, pray tell, would lead the chorus in condemning GWB and Company if the terrorists hit the areas on alert, and DID NOT forwarn the country? Why Peter T, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:34 AM

Yeah, but DougR, come on.

This evidence states that three or four years ago, they were planning to hit financial centers in Manhattan and also important sites in DC...and they did that. So what else is this "evidence" telling us?

I can just see these numbnuts analyzing the data:

"Hmm, sez here that three years ago in August 2001, they were planning to take down some big financial targets in New York. Can't be the World Trade Center, that's not there any more. I know, let's seal off the Citicorp tower!"

Duh!

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 04:41 AM

Rumour has it that Bush and Co have already been looking into some kind of Bill to present to the Congress about the idea of postponing elections in the case of a severe threat against the nation. Now who do you think gets to decide it there's a severe threat, do you think??

I don't believe it will happen (at least I don't want to believe it will happen) but I also don't put it past this administration to do something really drastic.

In fact, I'd be much more surprised if they didn't.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: saulgoldie
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 08:26 AM

Yes, read (or re-read) "1984." And see the movie "Orwell Rolls In His Grave."

It may have taken a little longer than he predicted, but I think we are truly on the verge of his vision--nightmare, actually--coming real. And I think allowing Bush another term would make that much more likely than giving Kerry, who I consider in many ways to be the lesser of evils a crack at running things. This may be our last chance to avoid slipping into the abyss.

Yes, read the book, and see the movie. Then vote in the most important election in the life of all humanity.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

Nerd has hit it on the head--the Administration is just now getting around to warning us about the possibility of terrorist attacks on 9/11--

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

DougR-
Assuming the threat is real, what good does a public warning with no suggested actions do (except politically, of course.)?

If one took such warnings seriously, the only reasonable response would be to evacuate the threatened areas immediately.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 02:21 PM

I assume that there will be terrorist attacks, and that they will happen prior to the November election (or not), and they will involve bombs and loss of life. I fail to see how anyone except Michael Moore could blame George W for missing the run-up to 9/11. It was a brilliantly conceived, diabolical plot -- only a great deal of luck could have broken into it. I don't believe al-Qaeda will be as lucky or imaginative again -- they are obviously going back to car and truck bombs and suicide bombers with backpack bombs. I only blame the Bush administration for getting stupidly involved in Iraq. I lived in London in the 1970's when the IRA were bombing regularly. We simply assumed that they were going to happen, and that some people were going to get blown up into little pieces. That is the price you pay for being in an open society.

What I object to is the panic-mongering. It is a combination of the fear-driven Bush administration (as eloquently set out by a number of contributors above), and the desperate desire of "officials" to cover their asses in case something goes wrong.

I also object to the refusal of the Bush administration to take the real threats seriously, among which the most serious by far is nuclear proliferation. They have never believed in strengthening the global disarmament regime, and are now proposing to create a new generation of nuclear weapons, than which nothing is STUPIDER.

yours,

Peter

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM

Foolestroupe: Both those books by Orwell are in the Alberta curriculum. I use both every few years (although it would be great if there was a new movie to accompany "1984"). The old one was never all that good despite having some decent actors in it.

Part of the difficulty I encounter with a few aspect of media study--which I slip into the more formal "English" courses--is that the world has changed substantially, and television, commercials, the 'big sell' are necessary parts of life for kids. It is a cast-iron sonuvabitch to undo the brainwashing that has happened over the years.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 04:21 PM

If there are "terrorist" attacks prior to the election, I'd argue that they will be actually orchestrated by the present administration.

The people who hate us have already got te U.S. in a state of fear and confusion, not to mention a high level or unneeded spending. There's little reason why they need to attack again.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

Terrorist attacks are by their nature aimed at the psyche. Terrorists traditionally carried out attacks of such 'unthinkability' that the very nature of the act was foreign to the people of a given district or country. There is no magic to it. The purpose of terror is to terrorize.

However, the nature of the 9/11 attach was different. It was aimed at disrupting commerce, and the attack itself was symbolic. IMO, the deaths of over 3000 people was something the attackers did not have factored into the equation. It was, from their perspective, a bonus. (From a fire fighter's perspective, we did not know the effect of high temperature on structural steel. Nor did we know how quickly the heat would weaken the structure thus leading to complete building collapse.) The high profile of the event shocked America (and the world). Few of us who witnessed the attack on TV (or in person) will ever rid our minds of the plane flying into the tower. Those of us old enough to remember Kennedy's assassination will forget where we were when we heard the news. So, to be clear, if there is a new attack, it will have to be high profile. From an American administrative view, I think Washington (interpret that how you wish) would need to

1) blackout the various media until it could get a handle on the situation

2) allow only its own speeches to blanket airwaves--whether that be radio, TV, internet or newspapers

It is easy for a civilian population to awake and find soldiers in the streets. I was in Montreal when it happened there, and it can happen way-far fast, even in democratic countries. Truth is, there is no way for 'partisans' to stand for long against the might of a military like that of the US. It is trained in high-intensity warfare, it has communications, and its supply lines are short--if it is waging any kind of action within its own borders. I don't think that National Guardsmen/women would turn on their fellow Americans, but given the right set of orders, they would function under the thought that their actions at the behest of their officers were in the best interests of their country. Harken to Kent State or People's Park. In the words of Forrest Gump, "Shit happens!"

It would not matter who actually orchestrated the attack--or even if it actually happened. All that is necessary is for people to be told it happened. The leaders who then appear on television would handle all the details after that. And people who wanted to complain or find out what was actually going on just might. And then, who would they tell? And how?

Bruce M

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 05:14 PM

There is a preview button, I know.

"Those of us old enough to remember Kennedy's assassination will NOT forget where . . . ."

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM

Assuming the threat is real, what good does a public warning with no suggested actions do (Dick)

Well, I can easily see that election success may be the basic motive in this particular case, but let's just for a moment assume that there were no elections in the USA in the near future.

Assuming that the threat is real, we'd expect a government to put the security forces on alarm and to tell the population why the controls are increased. So even if a government has no intention to suggest actions to the citizens, the least it can do is to explain why some things are different.

Just imagine for a short moment how you would react if you'd see increased police action, if you'd be bothered by tightened up controls, if you'd be delayed by airport security and nobody told you why. When asked why, the government would tell you you don't need to know because there is no particular action that is expected from you.

Would you be glad then?

So if the threat would be real how would you prefer the government to act?

The action of the Bush government, by the way, is no indication at all that the threat is real. A real and fairly specific threat, a general unspecific threat, or an invented threat, they'd do the same at about this time. That they say the threat is real doesn't mean it is, but it also doen't mean it is not. My bet is on Peter's prediction, but I am completely sure that some Mudcatters won't believe whatever happens to be a terrorist action.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:21 PM

Completely off topic minor remark:

Those of us old enough to remember Kennedy's assassination will forget where we were when we heard the news (Brucie)

Actually, Brucie, without the correction the sentence was closer to truth than with. It has been done with the Challenger accident. Students have been asked a couple of questions the day after the accident and three years later. One of the questions was where they were when they learned of the news.

People were after three years completely confident that they had not forgotten any details, but they had (taking their reports the day after the event as truth). In particular, asked again which way they had learned of the news their recollection was often off the mark. The recollection 'floated' towards the visual modality even if the first wencounter of the news was not in TV.

Some of the students did not believe what they themselves had written three years earlier for it did not fit with their later memories.

But I know what you mean. We'll never forget the emotion and the pictures we have seen very often. But where we were, some of us will forget.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

Looks to me that terrorism has already achieved things---and with help from your friendly administration---

The terrorist aim

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:50 PM

Excuse---looks like touching the wrong button (TAB) sends the message.

Let's start again:

Looks to me that terorism has already achieved things---with help from our friendly administration--

The Terrorist Aim                        The Administration Policy
Put Fear into the Public and get       Get on the Media with constant
Media Coverage                         Alerts

Disrupt the Economy                      Make regions pay for the
                                          constant alerts
Do actual damage and cause             Disregard early reports in
mayhem                                  2001 and over react for
                                           political motives later.


Let us face it--we are living in a different time now. We were the Guerrilas against the British Redcoats. This is, as then, a new type of battle. Now we are the Redcoats and have to respond not with political ploys but with the lower tech things that can preclude an attack and also use the high tech to ferret out the people who are the ununiformed guerrilas of today. But we have to do it for the proper reasons---not to cry "wolf" for political "hay". We all know what happened to the boy who cried "wolf" too often.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 06:57 PM

Too true, Wolfgang. I remember the BP: 120/70; Resps: 12; Pulse: 76 of an accident victim at 1:57 AM--that was about 15 hours ago. I do not remember the colour of the vehicle. We do tend to alter our memories with time, and I'm sure that if I'm asked any of the above numbers in a week, I won't know.

And that may be the crux of what I was getting at, unbeknownst to me. Major events take on a life of their own, and in the discussion that follows, things change. I still wonder about the 'plane' that crashed into the Pentagon. I still wonder why the terrorists didn't park the plane in oil refineries that are right near where the Twin Towers stood. And it seems there is much to think about to with the whole thing. Something ain't right with the picture, but I'm not smart enough to know what it is. However, one hopes that the American people will have a fair election and that the elected person will be allowed to take office. In the words of Paul Newman in the movie "Hombre", 'That's to be seen.'

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 07:00 PM

. . . or maybe it was, "That's to be found out."

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM

The only time I'm wavering in my opposition to gun control, is when I realize that if some of the scenarios presented above happened, the general public would be armed to the teeth to fight back. Our military is not 200 million strong, but the populace is.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 09:07 PM

I remember wher I was when the Challenger happened. I was at Kennedy Space Center in the press area. I had gotten permission to be there so I could film the launch with a 16mm movie camera.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 10:59 PM

A) NYC, Northern NJ, and Washington DC are on high alert based on 4-year-old intell (oh wait, one of the terrorists opened a file in January, thereby changing it's "modified" date). Okay, that sounds prudent.

B) Now, within the last several days, North Korea deployed nukes on refurbished shit-can Russian submarines that could hit the US mainland even as I write. Any high alerts in Washington (the real one), Oregon or Kollyfornya? Nope, didn't think so. Any plans to invade to stop the "imminent treat". No? Any talk of the "mushroom cloud over our heads." No, really, no?

Now, I'm dense. Explain to me how A is neither about oil nor elections.

Subject: RE: This week's phony terrorist alert
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 11:13 PM

GUEST, Jaze.

I admire your position, but I think that even with 20-1 odds, civilians would number the time of their armed resistence in minutes or hours, not days or weeks. No one tops the Yanks for night-fighting capability, and they would control the power plants.