BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...

Subject: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:57 PM

Dear Kerry Supporters,

First of all, Bush realy sucks. That's the good news.

So does yer guy. That's the bad news.

He is a typical Democrat. Democrats have been loosing election so long that they think the formula for winning one is acting like Republicans, ahhhh, which they have become very good at doing.

Kerry is no different.

I mean, lets face it, ya got two rival fraternaties in the the Republican and Democratic Parties. They trade issues like old women trading gossip. Don't matter then issue. Fiscal responsibility, Welfare, Education, ect. Don't matter what the issue is. If one is for it the other is against it.

Problem is that they seem to be arguing over isssues that either fall in the middle or on the right side of the spectrum. No, it's not about whether a Department of Peace could be helpfull in the supposed War on Terrorism but just how to reorganize the intellegence (fir lack of a better word) agencies.

It's not even about the rightness or wrongness of the Iraq War but how best to save face.

The real issues that progressives (and even libertarians) are concerned about are not on the table. And why? Like I said, them discussion is from the center to the right.

As long as the Democratic Party wants to play over there with the Republicans then, hey, I don't think I can vote for them.

Earlier this year I mentioned here that I might even work for the Dems but that, given their mealy mouthed platform, ain't worth working for. There's nothing progressive about it... Just a bunch of the usual Democartic babble at election time around the same old worn out themes.

Kerry is going to loose. You know it. I know it. And why? He's not offering the American people a different vision but the same old threadbare pablum.

Sorry to the be barer of bad news.

Nadar, Green 'er don't vote in '04...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:19 PM

Don't be fooled by rhetoric. The election is not about Kerry or Bush. The election is about a future for the United States. That future will be better served by Kerry or a Green Party member. In your estimation, who has the better chance of defeating BusH? That then is who to vote for.

And to all a good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:27 PM

Hate to be so direct but it appears it needs saying again (geez--I just said it yesterday).

If Nader supporters will be happy living with Bush for 4 more years, by all means, support your boy.

However, if Bush wins, let's hear absolutely no criticism from Nader supporters, for the next 4 years, of any of Bush's actions

It could be deathly quiet around here in some quarters.

Some of us have learned from 2000 and some it appears have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

It has nothing to do with living happy with Bush. You are missin' the point.

How much happier would we be living with Kerry? Would someone answer that without bringing up Bush? See what I mean? You can't because we all know that oher than getting rid of Bush thats its business as usual.

How amny folks believe the Kerry is gonna' take on corporate America, which exploits Americans or the IMF or World Bank that exploits folks elsewhere. Why have we not heard Kerry speak about this other than in the usual Democratic blah, blah. I mean, what proposals has Kerry put forth that will end exploitation of people????

None!

Hey, I'm just not hearing the kind of stuff that leads me to believe that the "culture" of America will change with John Kerry as president. Why isn't he talking about the broken winner-take-all system that disfranchises and turns milllions off to the political process?

Why isn't he talking about giving the war powers back to Congress?

Why isn't he talking about universal health care?

Well, the answers are obvious. He's jsut doesn't seem to care about those things.

Like I siad, without a "cultura" change, there can be no change. At least Barry Goldwater laid it on the line, fir better or worse and opened up the way for Reagun. If Kerry is this big hero then he needs to lay it one the line for '08 and speak his friggin' mind and quit looking at polls. Leaders lead. Not follow.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:14 PM

Bobert - it is hard to answer that without bringing up Bush mainly because Bush has done such a terrible job.   

Our economy sucks under Bush.

Bush has created fewer jobs than any other president since Herbert Hoover. Under Bush we have lost 2.7 million jobs, many of them outsource overseas. Kerry has proposed tax cut incentives to companies that create jobs here instead of giving tax cuts to companies that send jobs overseas.

Kerry will return the overtime that Bush just recently cut that effects 6 million Americans. We should have the right to overtime pay after 40 hours.

Kerry has a healthcare plan that will lower premiums by $1000 per year for most Americans. His healthcare plan would cut waste from the system and lower prescription drug prices.    Kerry's plan would extend healthcare to 95% of the American public, and that includes children.

Kerry's plans for education include a college opportunity tax credit on up to $4000 for college tuition every year.

Kerry's plans would be funded by cutting the corporate tax cuts that have only helped the wealthiest in our nation.

Under Bush, our nations record surplus has turned into a huge deficit that our children will end up paying if it isn't stopped. Bill Clinton was able to make the economy prosper, and Kerry's plan could do the same.

Bobert, Kerry IS talking about these issues and many more. The problem is that the issue of Vietnam has been taking all the headlines. This issue was brought up by the same people that gave us Willie Horton, Lee Atwater's "push polls", attacks on John McCain, Monica's stained dress, and so many other dirty tricks.   Anything to turn the public opinion away from the real issues. People like you Bobert do not even realize that Kerry has plans.   That is why it is so important to get Bush out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:25 PM

See, Ron, there you go again... Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up...

Yeah, I've heard these Democratic talking points BUT, my friend, who is Kerry going to get any of those things done without FIRST taking the steps to change the way the American people think about things? Kerry hasn't so much as made one speech that addresses the fundamnetal foundations upon which the current broken governemnt is built. That's what I mean about changing the "culture". Barry Goldwater changed the "culture" in his lose.

Someone has to throw themself on the proverbial hand grenade or none of the programs that you have mentioned can occur.

But's there's so much more than can be achieved in someone in Kerry's position to just say "Screw it, American people, you ain't gonna want to vote fir me after what I gotta say but this is the way it is...". Then he needs to nail the corporate globalist, the IMF, the Christain Right, CleanChannel, corruption within the governemnt, the broken system, etc...

That, IMO, is what Kerry has to offer America. Not beat up old Democratic "We're for you" crap... That dog never hunted too well.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:25 PM

Thanks, Ron Olesko. I've been dong some reading in the various Krery/Edwards/Democratic websites, and you are right. There are sound ideas being discussed.

Bobert, I feel forr you, I truly do. When I'm feeling down, I feel the same. But Cynicism and Despair, though a matched pair with their own appeal, aren't pretty and they are non-productive. We can't afford them.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:40 PM

When there are rattlesnakes in your garden plot, you've gotta get rid of the rattlers before you can plant the garden.

I might think about voting Green in 2008.

In 2004 I'm concentrating on getting rid of the rattlesnakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:42 PM

Ebbie,

No, no, no... This isn't about cynicism or despaie but the reality that:

A. Bush is screwing up big time and

B. Kerry and the Dems are letting him get away with it.

On the "open letter to Nader folks" I mentioned that maybe the American peole need another 4 years of Bush so that they fiully understand that folks like him don't have their best intersts at heart.

But the Dems proably need another 4 years of being out of power so they can figure out that they have to be a ***true*** opposition party that paints the vision of where they thing the country should go, not quibbling about amounts of tax breaks for this or that but more about their vision of what kind of country they want. And they are going to have to throw some constituencies, other than redneck America, some bones...

When they do that then we're on the road toward a two party system, which opens the door to a three, four or five party system that will better represent the intersts of all Americans.

Ya ever wonder why folks don't wanta play any more? Why should they? This is despair 'er cynicism. Just reality...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:44 PM

Bobert, if figures you would steal a Ronald Reagan line!!! :)

The changes that Kerry can make are a continuation of the changes Bill Clinton had made.   Listen to his speeches, check his website. The plans are there. They can be implemented.

I'm really not understanding what you are getting at with Goldwater. What "fundamental foundation" does he need to change? Goldwater left the Republican party in shambles and if he can be credited with anything, it is that the Republican party quickly realized it needed to get it's act together. They reorganized and turned their party into a cohesive unit that came back to win the White House. The Democrats have always been a bunch of loose cannons and it has hurt them. This year it has changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:50 PM

One has burned the wires connecting the capital and period in his sentences - so you'll hear a pause and the end of some sentence left over from last week.

The other one does not know when to end his sentences, in fact every thing he says is one long boring sentence with so many points there isn't one.

Choice, yeah we have one. Ignore the election entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:53 PM

Bobert, you don't get it. This country was never designed to have a three, four or five party system of government. You would need another revolution to change that, and that will never happen. Historically, third parties have been built around one issue. The parties eventual evolve into another. The Republican party grew out of anti-slavery movments that split the Democratic and Whig Parties. It evolved back into the two party system and it will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:01 AM

Bee-dubya-ell: Good analogy. However, I like rattlesnakes...I would use black rats instead.

Ron: well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:33 AM

From Lou Dobbs:

Trading Away Prosperity

{End Dobbs Quote}

I think Kerry would more likely balance the trade deficit and lessen outsourcing of American jobs.

These two issues, along with Bush's extreme religious beliefs, are enough for me to vote for Kerry, even though I am a registered Republican. Otherwise, as hard as it would be be for me, I might have considered not voting.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 06:20 AM

Sure, ignore the election, end up like a banana republic. That will fix 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:06 AM

Kerry looks like Andrew Jackson and is taller
he should be able to beat some bushes

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 07:51 AM

Well, Ron, the Founding Fathers didn't create the political parties with the constitution so I'm not too sure why power can't be shared. Oh, other than the stupid winner take all system, that's why. Yes, it looks as if it is going to take a revolution. No, maybe not an armed one but for someone to come along, like Barryn Goldwater (more on him next), plant the seed that "we are our worst enemies" and let it grow in the minds of the people.

First, the system is badly broken. Think about a hostile takeover of a corporation. So you realize that if two different corporations compete to take over a third that the corporation with the highest bid, even if it is one friggin' penny, wins. Now what that means is that one penny allows one CRO to control the entire taken over corporation. Well the American system of government is no different in any respect, except rather than it be a penyy it's a vote. All this system insure is hostility and arrogance. We need ***prorated representation*** if this country is to survive itself. Like Doctor Phil asks, "Is it working for you?" We, quite frankly, no!

Now back to Barry Goldwater. Goldwater was a seed planter. He opened the doors for the conservatives in his defeat. He took themes and put them out there for consideration and folks initial *reaction* was that the guy was nuts. But those seeds produces a *culture* that would one day elect a Ronnie Reagan.Thant's what I mean. I would vote for John Kerry if he would stand up and say the obvious: "The system is broken and if I am elected president I am going to prepose a constitutional ammendment that requires prorated representation, beginning in the electorial college and working it's way down to the way states elect their Representatives in the U.S. House of Represenatives!!!" And he could follow that up by saying amoung his vatious appointments, from cabinet level on down, that he would seek to appoint folks who better represent the country, picking from Repubs, Greens, Libertarians. Shoot there room enough for everyone.

But John Kerry won't do this. Why? Because just like the folks in the other fraternity and the CEO that won that bidding war in the hostile takeover, he loves his power.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:13 AM

Following your parallel, it took 6 years for Reagan to reap what Goldwater had planted. We can't wait 6 years. The country and by extension the planet is in danger from the loose cannon who now sits at the top of the US, and with control over the largest supply of WMDs in the world. We can remove him, legally, in November. Let's do it--and it can't be done by voting for Nader or sitting home.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:15 AM

Bobert:

I don't agree with your analysis of the situation, but as I grew up and read up a bit on Barry Goldwater, my opinion went up from my childish view of him as 'stupid enemy man'. The campaign to vilify him was tough hard politics of the kind we are seeing now against Kerry.

I never understood the brilliance of Ronald Reagon either. After the recent gooey lovefest for his ghost that was indulged in by a coupla republicans, I'm convinced that they didn't understand it either.

Sometimes it's luck.


oh, back to the subject of the thread. Sometimes it takes different personality traits to get elected and to serve. We've seen Bush in action and I hope we can do better. Put simply, I do not think Bush is evil, indifferent, or even stupid. I think however that we are in an era where we need GREAT leadership. I submit that he (along with his crew) hasn't risen to the occassion 'enough'. I have doubts that Kerry is 'great' but I'm willing to try. I may not be understanding you properly, but your message to me is that you think the two parties are too alike. I agree that there is a lot of similarity, but I think Bush hasn't been taking care of business as well as Clinton did (between interns when he wasn't between intern).

I think the odds are for Bush to be re-elected. The fact that Europe won't like it makes it more likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM

Sorry, I meant 16, not 6 years. Math is definitely not my strong point.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM

Well, Ron, the longest journey begins with a single step. Hey, ya gotta start somewhere. Someone is going to have to step in as martyr and throw out some ideas that can fix this terrible partisan dictitoral mess that we've created... I mean I find it shocking that a committee chairman head would ask the Capitol police to remove the members of the opposing party from conference. But that has occured in the last couple of years. The system is broken.

Now, let me clarify me position as to the outcome of the '04 election. While it would be nice to be rid of Bush and his cronies, at least right now, I can't bring myself to vote *for* Kerry. I've spent my entire life either voting for folks who had little chance of winning or voting *against* someone. Ya know what? It doesn't look mush like I'm going to have but only two choices on the Wes Ginny ballot come Novemeber. No Greens. No Nadar. So I'm thinking "Hey, Bobert, are you gonna stand in a one hour line to vote against someone, especially when that someone can't even throw the progressives a bone or two?" And the answer is, "No."

Like in 2000, inspite of the Bush theft, the Dems arrogance toward the progressives was appauling. I don't wnat to hear the same worn out Democratic rhetoric. I do want to here propopsals. It's easy for Kerry to say he's gonna roll back the big tax break for the richest 2% of Americans becuase it solidifies his base. However, if he were really *planning* on doing it he would tell us how he plans on overcoming a Republican controlled Congress. It's easy to say the United Sates needs intenational cooperation but how's he gonna get it?

I'll tell you what, folks, if Dennis Kucinich had gotten the nomination he would be telling us exactly how he's going to deliver. That's a big difference! That's what progressives are looking for. We've heard the Democatic battle cries far too long. Clinton led them for 8 years but Clinton turned out to be just another Repubocrat. And he had choices because of his popularity. He could have made a difference but choze to leave the rhetoric at the door...

But even beyond the things that Kerry says he believes in, some of which *sound* good, its what he not talking about that concerns a lot of us Greens and progressives. He's not talking about corporate globalization that is moving to privatize everything from water to housing to food. He's not talking about the exploitation of labor. He's not talking about the evilness of the ruling class. He's not talking about the loan shark World Bank and IMF. He;s bnot talking about universal health care.

Now this thread started as a letter to Kerry supporters. It was intended to give you folks some direction in understanding what millions of us *feel* about the Kerry and the Democratic Party. Your arguments shouldn't be pointed back at me but at your party. It has ignored us for 2 decades now and peobably won't be successful until it figures out that it's going to take more than "But look at Bush" arguements to win our support. That's the reality of the situation. We may represent only 3% but you need us if you wanta get yer guy in office. I'd suggest you spend less time arguing with me and more time letting the DNC know that 3% of the population is waiting to be courted... and not bullied...

I mean this very sincerely.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:35 PM

Bobert,

As you know, I agree with you on much of this, and wish the Dem nomination had turned out differently. I just believe in the "burning house" theory at the moment, and see voting for Kerry as a form of triage.

But to point out one problem in your logic, if Kerry TELLS us how he plans to overcome a Republican congress, then the Republican congress will know in advance what tactics he plans to use. Might as well announce in advance his every campaign move, so Bush can clobber him better. Kucinich's extremely detailed plans were great--except they had no chance of ever being enacted, even if he WON.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: maire-aine
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 12:48 PM

There are only two people who can win this election-- John Kerry or George Bush. In the immortal words of Florence Reese, which side are you on?

I decided after the 2000 election, that I'd do whatever I could to get a Democrat elected, and I'm sticking to that commitment. Sure, there are other candidates I would have preferred get the nomination, but that's water under the bridge. I'm voting for John Kerry! And I'm working for John Kerry!

I heard David Bonior (former Dem Whip from Mich) speak a few weeks ago, and he addressed this issue. First we get Kerry into the White House, then we help him make the kind of policy we want him to carry out.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 01:46 PM

Setting up false dichotomies for the sake of the argument is kind of pointless though, isn't Maryanne?

People can and should vote for the candidate they feel best represents their interests and the interests of the nation.

Very sound, cogent arguments have been made by many, that reducing elections to the equivalent of placing bets on the horse you want to see win the horse race, not only do not serve the best interests of our democratic nation, but in fact, work against them.

This election is about much more than the horse race between Kerry and Bush. So very much more.

For instance, if we could actually get Nader and Cobb into the debates, the policy differences between the nation's liberals and progressives, which are very important and meaningful differences in relation to this year's election in particular, could actually be debated on the national stage. Unfortunately, the liberals don't want that debate to take place, because they fear the voters might just decide for themselves that the Kerry supporters were crying wolf when they raised the alarm about the house being on fire as a smokescreen to prevent voters from examining their policy positions vis a vis the more progressive candidates.

At the very least, we should be allowed to watch televised national debates of the third party candidates with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:19 PM

Seems to me Nader has a lot of gall accusing Kerry or even Bush of being a political insider. After all, he's the only person on the scene making a comfortable living as a presidential candidate.

I really doubt that most firm Nader supporters are going to respond to any logical arguments about the futility of voting for him and the reality that their votes only help Bush. I suspect in their political world view, summarized by "the government is in rotten shape and it's only gonna get worse!", another four years of Bush is desirable as a means of strengthening their case. Since it would take basically a revolution, or a mass mental breakdown, to actually elect Nader, why not do your little part to encourage that desparate state of affairs?

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:27 PM

If you want to evaluate what Kerry would get done as president, perhaps you should look at the number of bills and legislature he got through in his 20 years in Congress.   Not a stellar record.

The next question is whether the democrats will take back Congress.   The way the rules are written (thanks to both parties) that is not likely.    In the Senate , 5 democrats are retiring (Breaux, Grham, Miller, Hollins, Edwards) with many in strong repulican states.    Only 2 republicans are retiring (Nichols, Fitzgerald).   In addition the democrats have 19 seats to defend- the republicans only 15.   (same is true in 2006) It is likely the Republicans will keep the Senate.

In the house, very few seats are contested.   Through redistrciting (thanks to both parties) 80% of the house will be reelected by wide margins. Chances are the republicans will retain control.

Therefore- what will Kerry accomplish with a Republican congress?   Sounds a lot like stalemate to me.   That might be a good thing.   Any who expects a progressive agenda will be dissapointed I think.

Sean Hannity did man on the steet interviews from Times Square yesterday.   The first person insisted that it was John "Harny".   The next 9 people all agreed with Sean when he prounounced it "Karny" and said they were supporting "Karny" but couldn't name what "Karny" did for a living or any one of his positions.    Hannity asked them if they knew "Karny's" running mate.   Hannity informed them it was "Stew Ped".   It took 9 people before one corrected him and said it was Edwards.    All of the 9 said they supported "Stew Ped" but couldn't name a single one of his positions either.   One of them (a rapper) stated the reason he didn't like Bush was because everyone knows that Bush had breakfast with Ossama in New York the morning of 9/11.    (Must have been an early breakfast so he had to fly to Florida to meet with the school children)    When I heard that I immediately thought of Bobert.   That kind of conspiracy theory must make you proud.   (were you in Times Square yesterday?)   Very funny if very sad to see the apothy and idiocy of the average public in New York City.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:03 PM

LarryK

I'm for Kerry because Mr Bush has a less than stellar record. According to today's paper poverty is still increasing while Bush says we have an economic recovery. Words vs facts again.

Could Mr Hannity possibly have selected the dumb interviews out of all he made? Most people doing street interviews don't broadcast live, for obvious reasons.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:04 PM

LarryK.   The Hannity thing is very funny.   Steve Allen used to do a similar thing on the old Tonight show. There is a condition that many people enter when a camera is turned on them. I wonder what would happen if Hannity asked them to name the current Vice President.

Just a serious question - do you folks on the right ever check out any other commentary besides Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and conservative websites? I admit that I listen to Al Franken, Randi Rhodes and even WBAI on occaision, but I also tune in to hear what people like Limbaugh & the others are saying. I then do a little research to try to sort it out for myself.   

I guess I started the second paragraph asking a question to the right, but the reverse also applies to the left.   We tend to listen to what we want to believe and follow it blindly.   This leads to some of the erroneous comments that have been made about Kerry AND Bush in this and other threads.

Personally, I feel that Kerry has a better plan and I would feel more comfortable if he was sitting in the Oval Office. Bush has made many errors, the Republicans and their mouthpieces have been caught in way too many lies, and another 4 years could be brutal.   I worry about the makeup of the Supreme Court if Bush has his way. At the very least, I hope for balance.   John Kerry may not be the perfect candidate or even best human being, but he is the right person for the job in my opinion.

I remember something an HR Director told me when I was interviewing people to fill a job in a company I used to work for.   Each of the candidates I reviewed had one or more items that I did not care for. I kept asking her to find more candidates.   She told me that we can spend forever trying to find the right candidate.   There is someone out there that is better qualified for my job, and there is someone out there that is better qualified for hers. We can each be replaced. The decision needs to be made to place the person that can handle the job you want them to do, and someone you can work with to make the changes you want.    John Kerry fits that critera better than George W.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: saulgoldie
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 03:51 PM

I like the rattlesnake reference. But let's be clear that, as many have already said, Kerry or Bush will be the next president. And let's also be clear that while the differences between them are not as pronounced as many of us would have them be, there ARE differences. Here are some issues on which they differ:

The environment. No Kyoto accords; snowmobiles in the national parks; clearcutting of the old growth given away for pennies on the dollar to industry.

Worker rights. Need I list all the ways in which Bush is horrible for the American worker? Overtime rules, and so many more.

The courts. Remember that Bush was chosen by some of the same justices that "daddy" appointed. And there are a whole slew of lesser courts in which are judged employment, health & healthcare, free speech, and class action suits, and as those courts more stacked with right wing-nut idealogues, Americans will have less and less opportunity for redress.

I could go on. But as much as Kerry is by far NOT my favorite Democrat, I am voting, sending money, working for him. We, and the world simply cannot afford another Bush term. It is not a matter of 4 or 8 or 12 years to build a better future. There simply won't be the future. Or at least, it will not be anything like today, not like we would want to live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 05:16 PM

There are SEVEN TRILLION REASONS NOT TO VOTE FOR BUSH. Those same reasons make Kerry the better choice. We have the option of continued stupidity and ineptitude with Bush or a chance for a tomorrow with Kerry. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Fishpicker
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:05 PM

"The real issues that progressives (and even libertarians) are concerned about are not on the table. And why?"

The only thing that has been on the table is Kerry's Viet Nam war record. Most people that had to be there would like to forget it and those that werent would like to hear his views on things that matter with regard to the future of their country Imo.

                              FP

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 11:17 AM

Bobert, those were some great posts.

I've been so outraged by Bush's trampling of the Constitution and spending 2 generations treasure on his whim-war, I was ready to vote for Kerry just to get him out. But I see from Kerry no leadership, no decisiveness, no willingness to be wrong, no conviction whatsoever.   He's accomplished nothing in the Senate and he's going to accomplish nothing as President.

The two parties are corrupt extensions of corporation and wealthy people's selfish wishes. They have the ignorant bamboozled into thinking their two parties are part of our government structure and they have set up Congress to guarantee they never 'evolve' because they have a guaranteed duopoly.   Until some equally wealthy powers start promoting the idea of big third parties and real anti-corruption and anti-duopoly legislation, nothing is going to change and it really doesn't matter who you vote for.

It is a darn shame one party or the other can't choose to 'go straight', there are an awful lot of people who don't vote now that would come out and vote for an honest choice. And a bigger pity that Nader and Perot both let their big fat egos lead the lost down a blind path instead of towards a major third party.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

Hey pattyClink, join the discussion over here on third party politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: van lingle
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 11:36 AM

Bobert, I think your argument has some real merit but for reasons I've stated elsewhere and for many of the excellent reasons stated above I'm going with Kerry. I at least want to have him there with veto power if nothing else.
Okay, I stated my argument without mentioning Bush and his ganster administration whose attempt to overrun a sovereign nation and profit from it's demise was to be, IMO, a prototype for foreign policy in the "-New American Century". I think you underestimate their capacity for doing harm. Damn! vl

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 11:40 AM

OK Van Lingle, but it would be nice then, if you would join us in the "Can We Do Better than 'Anybody But Bush" thread.

Or, before you decide that Kerry is an OK lesser of two evils sort of vote, educate yourself about the Democratic Party's Gang Green front.

Not a pretty picture, and it just may make you do what a lot of progressives have done since 1996: walk away from the corrupt duopoly system, and never looked back.

I will NEVER vote for another Democrat for president.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:02 PM

Is there a distinction between Green Party and Progressive Party. They seem to be on a state by state basis.

The Republican party is composed of several big blocks with a few 'right' wing requirements: anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-war in Iraq, pro-global economy, pro-blurring the distinction between religion and government. Somewhate multi-cultural with an expanding hispanic component, and long a bastion of cuban and anti-communist immigrants. Although they claim fiscal conservatism, the republican controlled government has been unable to rein in expenditures.

Yeah, I know there's a war on, but we're also putting gigabucks into a missile defense system which is not going to do the country any good. (It can't defend against cruise missiles).

The Dems are a much more fracture prone amalgam of moderately pro war, moderately anti-war, and vehemently anti-war, pro-global economy, anti-global economy, pro-big business, mostly pro gay writes, mostly pro-choice. Inherently multi-cultural.

In order to hold his base, Bush MUST assert more to the right than he perhaps himself is. In order to hold his base, Kerry MUST avoid asserting almost anything too strongly.

Thomas Friedman had a great commentary on the true components of the major parties and how each party contained several non-consistent elements through history and political marriages of convenience. I thought it was dead on, but I haven't found a copy of it. It was almost five years ago, but it still holds true.

As for where other parties fit in, there's more to say than I can possibly know. I developed a contempt for the Libertarians because they once nominated for Alaskan governor someone who'd moved out of state. If their own people weren't up on what was going on how could I take them seriously. I have friends who are Green, and I feel for the environmental side of their arguements, but to me they don't have a 'big picture' mentality whereas the Republicans do (a badly flawed one) and the Democrats consistently fake one (but their fake is better than the Republican fantasy).

As to global economy, I go back to Thomas Friedman "The Lexus and The Olive Tree". The global economy is a reality. It has its evils, but its 'what's for dinner'. You will not succeed fighting it, nor should you. You have to fix it from the inside. My analogy would be the industrial age. The Luddites tried to break the machines, all they succeeded in doing was getting more machines built. The unions fought the good fight and brought about a lot more good. Something similar is going to happen here. All that 'cheap' overseas labor will not remain cheap, and eventually justice will prevail.

As to world ecology, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. More was done against pollution in free societies where powerful lobbying groups were brought to bear against big business. In totalitarian (Communist) countries, it is hard to describe in words the extent of ecological abuse, to this day.

I hope I don't come off as a hole-poker. I can still understand the resentment of third party folk towards both parties and the system we are mired in. I'll tune in here and look at more comments. We can all use some good ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:02 PM

Is there a distinction between Green Party and Progressive Party. They seem to be on a state by state basis.

The Republican party is composed of several big blocks with a few 'right' wing requirements: anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-war in Iraq, pro-global economy, pro-blurring the distinction between religion and government. Somewhate multi-cultural with an expanding hispanic component, and long a bastion of cuban and anti-communist immigrants. Although they claim fiscal conservatism, the republican controlled government has been unable to rein in expenditures.

Yeah, I know there's a war on, but we're also putting gigabucks into a missile defense system which is not going to do the country any good. (It can't defend against cruise missiles).

The Dems are a much more fracture prone amalgam of moderately pro war, moderately anti-war, and vehemently anti-war, pro-global economy, anti-global economy, pro-big business, mostly pro gay writes, mostly pro-choice. Inherently multi-cultural.

In order to hold his base, Bush MUST assert more to the right than he perhaps himself is. In order to hold his base, Kerry MUST avoid asserting almost anything too strongly.

Thomas Friedman had a great commentary on the true components of the major parties and how each party contained several non-consistent elements through history and political marriages of convenience. I thought it was dead on, but I haven't found a copy of it. It was almost five years ago, but it still holds true.

As for where other parties fit in, there's more to say than I can possibly know. I developed a contempt for the Libertarians because they once nominated for Alaskan governor someone who'd moved out of state. If their own people weren't up on what was going on how could I take them seriously. I have friends who are Green, and I feel for the environmental side of their arguements, but to me they don't have a 'big picture' mentality whereas the Republicans do (a badly flawed one) and the Democrats consistently fake one (but their fake is better than the Republican fantasy).

As to global economy, I go back to Thomas Friedman "The Lexus and The Olive Tree". The global economy is a reality. It has its evils, but its 'what's for dinner'. You will not succeed fighting it, nor should you. You have to fix it from the inside. My analogy would be the industrial age. The Luddites tried to break the machines, all they succeeded in doing was getting more machines built. The unions fought the good fight and brought about a lot more good. Something similar is going to happen here. All that 'cheap' overseas labor will not remain cheap, and eventually justice will prevail.

As to world ecology, it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. More was done against pollution in free societies where powerful lobbying groups were brought to bear against big business. In totalitarian (Communist) countries, it is hard to describe in words the extent of ecological abuse, to this day.

I hope I don't come off as a hole-poker. I can still understand the resentment of third party folk towards both parties and the system we are mired in. I'll tune in here and look at more comments. We can all use some good ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:16 PM

"We can all use some good ideas."

So long as no anon guests attempt to put some forward, right there robomatic?

So you are a Friedmanian? Well, that certainly explains the closed mind, and the dire view of life on earth you hold. Just love your statements like:

"The global economy is a reality. It has its evils, but its 'what's for dinner'. You will not succeed fighting it, nor should you."

And your sentence that followed the above quote, which shows you are a company man for the duopoly status quo:

"You have to fix it from the inside."

And then there is this rant:

"As for where other parties fit in..."

in which you insist upon the two party system maintaining it's hegemonic stranglehold on the nation with this gem:

" I have friends who are Green, and I feel for the environmental side of their arguements, but to me they don't have a 'big picture' mentality whereas the Republicans do (a badly flawed one) and the Democrats consistently fake one (but their fake is better than the Republican fantasy)."

If that is your justification for supporting the duopolist system in the US, I guess everybody just needs to sit down, shut up, and take what the two parties force feed us?

Now there is some visionary thinking.

Glad I don't live in your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:39 PM

oh maneless one, i can only guess you followed me over from the other thread where I requested you id yourself. I am truly flattered.
no wonder there is alot of talk about rudeness in the 'cat.
a ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - (D'OH)!

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:41 PM

P.S. I apologize for posting twicet. The post didn't seem to be going anywhere and I hit refresh. (But maybe if GUEST reads it twice half of it will sink in).

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: freightdawg
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:42 PM

From several posters above:

"Kerry has a plan" "Kerry has some ideas" "What Kerry is talking about."

Has anyone noticed that the one thing Kerry is not talking about is his record in the senate? He has been there for what, 18 or 20 years and has nothing that he is proud of to run as a president who can accomplish anything? This is not just about campaign strategy. This is about being one of the 100 most influential people in the country and having basically no results to show for it. If he has such a great health care plan, how come there is no legislation, proposed or passed, with his name on it? If he has a plan to fix medicare and medicaid, why is there no legislation, proposed or passed, with his name on it? If he can fix the economy why has he not already done so? The only senator in Massachusetts that can accomplish anything is Kennedy.

The one main point in Kerry's campaign so far has been his service in Vietnam. It has been hashed, rehashed and overhashed. His service in the Senate has been totally ignored, except by the Republicans who are having a field day with all of his flip flops and crazy voting patterns. The rest of Kerry's campaign is all "promises" and "plans". I think this is where Bobert is getting his opinion that Kerry cannot win. If Kerry wants to win, and if the Democrats expect him to win, they had better break out his senate record and let the American people see that he has been an effective senator. Otherwise, Bush wins.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:51 PM

It is a truism that either Bush or Kerry will win this election.

What is an absolute certainty, though, is that the global corporate capitalist elite's agenda will win, regardless of who gets to sleep in the private quarters and go to work in the West Wing for the next four years.

That's the truly frightening thing to me about the blind hatred of the Anybody But Bush camp.

Their blind hatred of Bush understands the above truism is a fact, yet denies and refuses to accept that the above absolute certainty is even more true than the fact that either Bush or Kerry will be the next president.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:05 PM

Y'know, I'm sure there is such a thing as "global corporate capitalist elite" but what that means to me is a lot of rich people who may or may not golf or be memebers of certain country clubs. But the term is loaded and less than helpful becuase it assumes a stance of class warfare, and insisting that there is an 'agenda' is putting forth a fact not in evidence, i.e. a non-fact.

We already know there are rich people in the world. We know there are corporations. They are not all identical, they do not all have the same interests, and in fact quite a few of them are vulnerable as technology changes the underlying rules of our economy. It's one of the reasons I can't agree with the anti-globalism crowd. They are no more keyed in to what's going on in the world than 'W'. Kerry may or may not be. I think Clinton was definitely one of the people who 'got it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:20 PM

It's nice that you might believe in a global corporate capitalist elite robomatic.

Especially because they rule the planet right now, and have not one iota of allegianc to any nation-state.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:34 PM

Good to hear we're making progress!

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:40 PM

I wouldn't call the financial bankrupting of the American economic and political system by corporate capitalist marauders 'progress' though, robomatic.

I'm no fan of the nation-state, but I'm also no fan of the annihilationist push to concentrate the planet's wealth in the hands of less than 1% of the world's inhabitants, whether it be done in the name of democracy, capitalism, or 'progress'.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:11 PM

John Kerry is an educated man. Bush has a problem in this area. I would like to see a president that knows how to speak effectively, is a statesman and can relate to the world, is not impulsive, thinks through a problem, knows how to be an effective politician by not showing all of his cards at election time, using the power of the presidency to accomplish something toward the goals of the progressives, is knowledgeable about the conditions in the country and the world, is not an ideologue who needs to be right over being flexible and effective as a leader, has an understanding of the pitfalls of war, is not afraid to embrace intelligence and education as an important accomplishment and not denigrate it by celebrating stupidity, is realistic about what can be accomplished in a political climate with differing agendas, and can speak a foreign language, (at least one).

John Kerry fits the bill.

Bill Clinton said it best in his book. "You don't throw out the good for the perfect."

Nader has no integrity if he accepts money and backing from Republicans. I believe at one time he did a lot of good as a consumer advocate but his foray into politics is a disaster and he would make a terrible president.

Kucinich did much to influence the public discourse and debate but he didn't have a chance because the American people are just not ready for him yet.

I believe that this thread is a case of the Left shooting itself in the foot again.
Here we have in the White House a disturbed individual who is creating chaos in our country and instead of organizing to get rid of him, here we are
infighting because everything isn't perfect. No wonder the Right-wing is in control of power. They know how argumentative and divisive the Left can be.
They know about divide and conquer quite well.

Kerry is heads and shoulders a more compassionate, articulate and mature person than Bush. He is a real family man and his kids have "values". They don't go around sticking their tongues out at newspeople. He has courage in his convictions. Kerry had the sense to change his mind when he saw that Vietnam was going nowhere and was a waste of time and resources. Also, he realized that the "domino theory" was a sham.

Here's another thing, nobody really knows who does what in the Senate because everyone's name can't be on every bill. There is a lot of influence that goes back and forth between the members and many of the bills that some would vote for contain provisions that might be unacceptable. I believe that Kerry has been influential in the Senate. Bush has never been in the Senate.
Nor has Reagan. Nor has Nader.

It's time to wake up! Another four more years of Bush will be disastrous for this country and even with a Republican Senate, Kerry can ward off some of the
corporate malfeasance and excesses. Those that want to do away with corporations in the US are really in a bubble. They are built into the system.

I believe in the public service interest financed by taxes and government. Corporate privatization will make a mockery of education, the penal system,
will squander the Social Security and Medicare, will trample on civil rights for just about everybody except corporate execs, many of whom are robbers, bleeding their companies dry and taking "golden parachutes" in millions of dollars.

I think that our government has done a pretty good job with public education.
Many of the people who are in power now have made avail of it to their benefit.

I think that we see what corporate power has done with HMOs, the abuse by drug companies, the selling of government through dispassionate and crooked lobbies, and the unapologetic attitude of the Republicans about this is appalling. With the Dems, at least there is some concern about this and I think Kerry will do whatever he realistically can to counteract the big business selfishness and flagrant disregard for the needs of our citizens.

In the meantime, some members of the Left pursue a Utopian and Quixotic dream that has them tilting at the wrong windmills.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

You know Frank, you once seemed to be an independent thinker. But nowadays when I read your regurgitated pro-Kerry diatribes, you just sound like every other Democratic party apologist.

It's a real disappointment I can't find anything in your posts that doesn't read like a cut and paste from the Kerry/Edwards 2004 website.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:31 PM

Frank, I'm a bit disturbed by the quote "you don't throw out the good for the perfect." I would. Is the meaning that you take advantage of what is nominally better among realistic choices rather than hang your hat on an ideal not yet real?

I can go along with that if it doesn't mean giving up on making things better.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Mark Clark
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM

I posted this response in another thread but it applies here as well.

You guys remind me of attending leftist meetings back 40 years ago when there still were a few leftists in the US and listening to them argue for hours about Fabian Socialism vs. Trotskyism vs. ASP vs. old-time CPers and laughing as any useful agenda was totally forgotten amid shades of true-believerism.

Reclaim the US from the brink of catastrophe first, then talk about the future over many beers... after we've made some sort of future possible.

Defeat the neocons NOW!     They are evil!

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Thanks for the condescending attitude Mark, we really need you to step in and add to the chorus of Old Lefties lecturing us all on the evils of the fractious utopians messing up yer plans.

Yawn. We left you Old Lefties in the dust a couple of decades ago Mark and Frank.

Or maybe you didn't get the email?

Thanks, but not thanks to the lesser of two evils strategy.

I'm voting Green, because voting for Kerry won't rid the nation or the world of the neocon's or their money machine.

BTW, that would be the same ATM money machine the Democratic Party and John Kerry uses to fund their corrupt regimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

Since no one seems to be willing to read the arguments being presented by the radical left that I keep linking to, let me bring this one topic right into the thread for discussion.

It is one of the question/answers--just one-- from the 'Monkeywrench Hope' interview I linked to above & in the "Can We Do Better..." thread.

It's addressing "stark difference" argument Kerry supporters keep regurgitating on the differences between Bush and Kerry on the environment (which Kerry's supporters keep touting as one of the "main differences" between the candidates). I've broken it up into more readable paragraphs than the original.

---------------------------------------------------

Joshua Frank:

Jeff, thanks for agreeing to this interview. So many progressives I've talked to, who admit John Kerry offers no alternative to the Bush Administration on almost every issue -- often justify their support for the Kerry ticket by saying that there is at least a stark difference between Bush and Kerry on the environmental front.

They point out such things as Bush's disregard for science, his horrible forest plan, his roll-back of Bill Clinton's roadless rule -- while they see Kerry as an environmental crusader who has received ringing endorsements from all the major environmental groups.

Having covered environmental politics since the early 1990s, how do you respond to this rationale? Do you agree that indeed there are major differences between Bush and Kerry regarding the environment?
-----

Jeffrey St. Clair:

Let's get some things straight up front. The environmental movement bears very little relationship to the "major environmental groups." The big groups, aka Gang Green, function politically as little more than a green front for the Democratic Party. Of course, they inflate Kerry as an environmental crusader. They would say, and indeed have said, the same thing about any Democratic nominee. That's their job. They do it very well, indeed. They should, because the Beltway Greens aren't really environmentalists any more in the way we used to think of enviros 15 or 20 years ago. These aren't activists, but lawyers and lobbyists, mainly from Ivy League schools, overwhelmingly white and liberal, who could (and perhaps will) just as easily be lobbying on health care, abortion rights, trade policy. They come packing with a PhD in deal making. There's no driving commitment to wilderness or burning rage about cancer alley or passionate concern about the fate of the grizzly. It's all very congenial, nicely compensated, prefabricated and totally uninspired.

The irony, of course, is that the better this new breed of eco-lobbyist do their job (i.e., act as a kind of mercenary force against the Republicans), the less seriously most rational people (except the perenniably gullible) take them. With good reason. There's more threat inflation being waged by the Big Greens, than by the Bush administration in the run-up to the Iraq war. Does Bush want to pursue corporate-driven environmentally hostile policies? Of course. Is Kerry an environmental crusader? Of course, not. And there's the lie.

In it's zeal to become a Beltway player, the Big Greens have ceased to be truth-tellers. For example, the Greens say Bush has turned his back on the Kyoto protocols. True enough. But they neglect to say that Kerry turned his back first, voting against Kyoto while he was a senator and Clinton was president.

This is to say that Bush was tight with Ken Lay and covered for Enron. Right on. We all know Bush, the inveterate nick-name dropper, dubbed Lay "Kenny Boy." But they overlook the fact that Lay and the Kerry's are also very good friends and frequent dining companions. Moreover, Ken Lay was recruited by Teresa Heinz Kerry for a seat on the board of her environmental foundation, where he was assigned the task of heading the foundation's global warming task force.

They charge that Bush, fully marinated in crude oil, wants to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling. Horrible, but true. They say that Kerry opposes this. And that's true, too. But they elide the fact that Kerry told Teamster's president Jimmy Hoffa that while he won't drill in ANWR, he does plan to drill "everywhere else like never before." Where would everywhere else include? The coastal plain of Alaska, offshore waters of Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico, the Rocky Mountain Front, the red rock country of Utah, the deserts of New Mexico, the Powder River Basin of Wyoming.

There's more. Kerry met with the American Gas Association a few weeks ago and pledged his support for a Trans-Alaska-Canada Natural Gas Pipeline that will cut across some of the most incredible tundra and taiga on Earth -- a project that will dwarf the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. No one among the Beltway Greens even squeaked. This amounts to a grand and debilitating hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Nader IS the better man. But Kerry can defeat Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:40 PM

To me, the imporant issue isn't who is the better man, or who can defeat Bush.

I'm more frightened at the prospect of Kerry beating Bush and the Democrats returning to the Clinton status quo, than I am of Bush winning. Like the man says, at least with a neocon in office, people actually fight the beast. Put a Clinton Democrat back in, and people throw in the towel, and go home to watch tv.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:48 PM

"people actually fight the beast."

The wrong beast. The real beast is still at large.

Subject: RE: BS: Open Letter to Kerry Supporters...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 08:50 PM

I guess I can't state this enough, but it ain't about Bush. W eknow exactly what we get with him and, inspite of gleefull attempt to run the country into bankrupcty, life will still be here after he is gone.

No, really folks. This is about John Kerry and the Democratic Party. Lets do the math. Let's say that country is fairly equally divided between the two fraternities leaving probably no more than, say, oh 5% OT 6% OF *truely* undecided voters. Now you have 3% Greens and Progressives that are leaning toward Nadar. If the Dems were smart they would do their darnedest to get that 3% and hope they split on the undecided. Right? Simple math. Don't need the Wes Ginny Slide Rule on this one.

Yet, the DNC nazis have done everything in their power to say to the progressives: "Sorry you are not wlecome but, if you don't want Bush, you have to vote for our guy!" That's about the arrogant size of it. And why have they taken this position? Well, I'll tell you why. The Dems are endebted to corporate America, that's why!

And like I said earlier. The more you Dems push your "anyone but Bush" crap at us the tougher its going to be for any of us to consider votin' fir your guy. You just don't get it. Hey, we don't have to have the entire progressive agenda but we are gonna need to be thrown some bones. Threats of "more Bush" ain't bones, thank you.

How about a your guy endorsing the concept of a "Department of Peace" for starters. Don't like that one? Well, how about a full investigation into the loan sharking by the IMF and World Bank? Hey, you all want out votes? Then get to work or you're gonna loose 'um again....

Bobert