This Forum & American Folk Music

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:46 PM

I am not surprised that Frank Hamilton is ready, able and willing to sing those songs we, all, grew up with. He is, however, atypical. I can't remember the last time I heard an Americal "folksinger" present songs like "Erie Canal", "Darling Clementine", "Yankee Doodle" or any Foster song except "Hard Times" or "Angelina Baker" as a banjo solo. Our "folksingers" are too involved with contemporary songs, their own and others, to bother with their own roots. Maybe, they are contemptuous of these old standards because they find them boring and unrelated to their own lives. I know that the schools have pretty much abandoned American folk songs in what little remains of their music programs.
There are, of course, exceptions. Don Edwards has devoted his life to the study and performance of cowboy songs, Bill Dempsey does whole concerts of sea chanties and songs that everybody knows, Ricky Skaggs has no qualms about roasting an old chestnut or two. But, if we can guage from the posts on Mudcat and 99% of the sets we see in folk clubs and festival stages, old is out, familiar is forbidden and original is obligatory.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:10 AM

we did not ALL invent R&R....

PROUD?? for DECIBELS? And concerts that require police? *tsk*

I am an old miserable **** who regrets the whole thing.

****ing off now......

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:17 AM

you yanks invented rock 'n' roll..

for fucks sake be proud !!!!!!!!


thats 50 years of best music ever !!!!!!!!


and anything we Brits did since is so indebted to the spirit of american
Rock n roll !!!!!!


and if you are an old miserable **** who *********************** etc blah blah


well.. you and your miserable false deity music hating god
can just **** off

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:03 AM

Mike Miller makes, I think, the incisive point. Those of us who are aware of what is wrong, and has been, with US policy, will be reluctant to sing songs which glorify that sordid past (and present).

It's similar to why there is next to no German traditional music today. Nationalism, real or perceived, is just not cool.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

Mike, speaking for myself, I am never uncomfortable singing many Stephen Foster songs.
The songs he wrote for the commericalized minstrel shows were not as enduring in my opinion as the art songs such as 'Jeannie With The Light Brown Hair" or "Beautiful Dreamer."
(Camptown Races excepted of course). Angelina Baker lives on in the folk tradition.
"Hard Times Come Again No More" is a classic.

I believe that these songs that are "questionable" in some audience's minds can be appropriately presented in a historical context. I am not in favor of censorship. Some songs deemed offensive can be presented in such a way to describe negative ideas in a historical context.

This would include some songs that depict Native Americans or African-Americans in a bad light. I think it's important to contrast these songs with those whose positive values I embrace in what some would label "liberal". Again, I emphasize that these songs need to be taken in historical context as an index into the lives of the people who sang them.
For example, "The Unrescontructed Rebel" (whose sentiments I don't agree with) is an important example that needs to be shown.

"Dixie" is one of those songs that needs to be looked at and taken away from the Southern KKK or the New Orleans music publisher that stole the song from Dan Emmett. Emmett was a supporter of the Union and would be appalled that it became the Confederate anthem.

It's a great song which was co-opted by hate groups.

I'm inclined to be interested in folk music from the standpoint of history. History tells us the "facts" of what happened. Folk music tells us how people felt.

We need to know these things.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM

Just wanted to comment that here in Atlantic Canada, and in the Ottawa Valley, and no doubt other parts of Canada where I'm less familiar with the folk/roots/trad music scene, the kitchen party continues to be the main venue for most of us. Musicians, singers, songwriters mostly start there, continue to participate throughout their public careers, should they be lucky enough to have one, and rarely stop performing informally with and for their friends and neighbours.

We do have quite a few music festivals - you can attend a Bluegrass or country festival every weekend, should you wish to, and there are several high profile Folk festivals.

As for younger music makers, we here owe a great deal to the young people of Cape Breton, the Acadian shore, Newfoundland, etc., who continue to take a lively interest in making terrific music based on their respective community traditions.

But as to the public airwaves, except for the CBC TV and Radio (Canadian Broadcasting Corp, or "Mother Corp"), you'd never know all these performers existed, Shania Twain and Celine Dion notwithstanding.

I suspect every English speaking country includes relatively small numbers of people who are even interested in any music that isn't dismissible ear-candy presented by equally dismissible eye-candy, designed primarily by multi-corps trying to sell something. But I may just be middle-aged and out of touch on that subject.

On topic, I don't think it matters what group participates more or less on a site like this. The fact that these smaller demographics are participating at all is delightful to me, and also indicates yet another great effect of the internet.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:08 PM

What an interesting thread. I've thought quite a bit about this over the years. That the attitude and approach toward folk music differs from right to left bank of the Atlantic is apparent. I have a few ideas as to why this may be so. It wasn't always this way. America has had a better relationship with her own musical past than she does today. Here's one idea. American folksingers (who tend to be politically liberal) are uncomfortable singing Steven Foster songs (they are, by today's standards, incredably racist and patronizing), and it's tough to romanticise songs of the western expansion (we are, now, aware of the injustices perpetrated by the "Americans" against the "Indians") and, how can we sing what we, now, know to be, pro-war songs. So many folksingers seem embarrassed by their national policies and they equate "patriotism" with the oppressive right and wind up with less desire to immerse themselves in American historical culture (which is what folk music is)
Well, that's one idea. Another is that it might, all, be cyclical. Every once in a while, American pop culture catches up with its roots and, whether it's Burl Ives and The Weavers in the 40's (Boy, did you ever think you'd read those two names in the same sentence?),
Joan Baez, The Kingston Trio, Harry Belafonte, Guy Mitchell, Pete Seeger, Bruce Springstien, O Brother or whoever is the next one to make it OK to love American folksongs as I, and I suspect a few of you, do.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:18 PM

Thanks Frank. Here's where I'll be putting it (somewhere) if you want to be in touch further:

http://groups.msn.com/TheGoodNewsGoodtimeBand/_whatsnew.msnw

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

Susan, I'm writing on a different computer so apologies to all if I answer you here.
Can't get through to your address.

Of course feel free to use any idea that I have to post anywhere you would like. I'm honored that you consider my posts that valuable. Please check out my response to Don Firth on the Ewan McColl post. It's relevant to what we're talking about here.

Guest, there are summer camps such as Augusta and Swannoa and McCabe's Guitar Shop in Los Angeles. There are workshops around the country that have fine instructors but forgive me for being biased in saying that I know of no other institution quite like the Old Town School. It's unique. I think it's a good thread though and people should know what is available to them.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:11 AM

Frank, may I edit together some of your posts above to post on our band's website? I see a great article there about the folk process-- and I was just working on what it means to a singer to, that process, to be connected to the history of the songs we sing. Please PM your response when you get a chance.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

Thanks for that, Frank.

I'd be interested in finding out if there are any other music institutions like the great Old Town School anywhere else in North America?

If people know of them, they could post information about them here.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM

Martin brings up a valuable point. I think of folk music as a form of expression whereby anyone can participate. In America, we have become a spectator culture. We don't play sandlot baseball like we used to. Instead of making music themselves, many vote for performers on American Idol.

I think that the solution is for performers who do folk music to include a lot more people in the participation through introducing songs that have choruses that audiences can sing.

Pete Seeger thought that the "hootenanny" served this function.

I think that the rise of folksong clubs where people get together to make music would solve this problem. We saw a lot more of it in the Fifties and Sixties than we do today. I used to go to gatherings in people's homes where accompaniment instruments would be brought in and songs would be sung and played, particularly American folksongs that were simple and accessible.

Folk music classes concentrating on playing different instruments as accompaniment to songs are important here too.

Somehow, these valuable groups of people became either an exercise in academic criticism or limited to those who were outstanding or professionals entertaining others. I have nothing against those who are accomplished performers but they require a concert or a performance venue.

I think the answer to Martin's question lies in the fact that people don't participate in music making as much nowadays. I think that living room "hoots" or sharing songs would solve the problem.

The Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago was created to answer this need. It's core approach was inclusion of all kinds of interest in a variety of folk music that could be shared through group participation. We taught people to play so that they could go out on their own and share their love of singing and playing with others.

We also provided a venue for those who were more accomplished to perform and get started.

I found that when people became interested in folk music and "owned" it, they became interested in where it came from and the people who originated it. They delved into the history and the various cultures.

A big mistake would be to exclude. I have always stated that folk music is not an exclusive club. It's fine for people to have their preferences and this is healthy but
nothing that people consider valuable needs to be shunned.

I think an attitude of sharing musical knowledge and songs is what may be missing these days. In many ways, the popular music field is responsible by making a "star system" that discourages amateur participation. Music is music before it is a business.

I believe that it's important, however, to encourage people be get better at what they do by learning to play and sing through lessons or mentoring.

Also, I think it's good if people start to memorize songs and not rely on keeping noses in songbooks. If songbooks are used, I think it's important to occasionally look up from it and acknowlege those who are sharing the music with you. Certain lines of songs can be remembered at a casual glance at the songbook.

I think workshops are valuable if the leader can communicate what is important in the music that is being presented. So often. workshops are ego trips for accomplished artists.

The next folk music revival (if there is one) will be in the living room. BTW, The Old Town School of Folk Music is like a great big living room with the emphasis on "living".

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM

Frank, may I edit together some of your posts above to post on our band's website? I see a great article there about the folk process-- and I was just working on what it means to a singer to, that process, to be connected to the history of the songs we sing. Please PM your response when you get a chance.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:35 AM

I'm 30+ years out of the English folk scene, but as I remember it, it was very encouraging to new performers, and we sat through (and applauded) lots of less-than-perfect acts. Club organisers actually encouraged them, and some internationally known talents made the journey.
Compactness was also a factor. When I lived there I could, and sometimes did, visit 7 folk clubs a week, within 1hr driving distance, and 7 or 8 festivals a year. Nowadays I see advertised even more festivals than then.
The American performers that we saw then, and now, are slick and professional artists, who but from their musical preference could fit into any musical field. Only a few English performers could match them.
Is the American scene one in which perhaps a quarter of the audience in a club could and would get up and 'do a turn' if asked? I can't answer that, but I do know that I was encouraged in England, and have been a folkie ever since. Mouthy ever since, too.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM

Sorry, hit the submit button too soon.

Someone mentioned 'almost missing' Martin Gibson in a thread, so I went looking for threads by him.

This is a great thread with some great posts. Wondering what people's thoughts are about the subject a couple of years later--this forum & American folk music, that is. It still isn't being discussed much here in my experience.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:41 AM

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

oh, 100 by the way.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:06 AM

good point!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Brilliant Frank.

The is one constant I find in folk music is not the melody or song because they are changeable and changing. The second someone plays a song on a guitar he first heard on a banjo and sings it without the words in front of him the song has changed. I think the tradition of traditional music is this change and there oin lies the beauty of folkmusic to me.

The one unchanging part of the tradition is the singing. Not the "what" is being sung but the act of singing itself. The somgs will change overtime and go from endearing to unacceptable and back again in a few generations. But someone is always singing them. I think thats where B.B. gets the Bop and Doc gets the Swing.

Great thread Martin, I think we are just in a "All British" "All MOnth" kinda twist right now, stick around for "The Great Blues of Greenland Month."

Don

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 04:19 PM

Frank, I have your excellent piece *saved* for anytime someone asks "what is folk!" It is pure poetry; I read it aloud to family and friends last night and it just rolls off the tongue...you have a real cadence going there that's just brilliant. Thanks, again.

I agree with Ron, Mary and Villan...as an American, I love to read what's going on all over, including the UK. Sometimes it makes me a bit wistfull because I cannot be there, but I love to read about it and look at the pictures. It's great to put faces and words to names. Goodonya, The Villan!

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Kat and Art.

Art, although I thank you for your compliment, I realize that you are so talented that you would have learned anything I had to teach you eventually anyway.

I am grateful to have been there for you at that time, though.

It's always a privilege to show something to appreciative and talented people.
It's a special kind of reward. I think that Susan would agree.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:14 PM

Mary Garvey and Villan are dead right. There's no reason for American Mudcatters to, as the UK "Catters say, "get their knickers in a twist". It is in fact not only a vicarious travelogue to read the postings regarding pub schedules etc. but also good info. I suspect a lot of US Mudcatters would like to or perhaps already have visited some UK and Irish pubs. It's always good to know what they're like, 'pub etiquette', problems, and especially the best ones to get to. If Americans feel their interests are being slighted, they can post notices of their own gatherings, as Mary Garvey has done.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:59 AM

I would like to make a comment and defend the posting of whats on threads.

I have been running my folkclub for a little over 6 months and it has proved to be very succesful.
The many varied artists who appear give up their time free (mostly) to make this club succesful and push their music out to the people of this area. They also stay and listen to the other artists. Normally about 7 or 8 artists on per evening.
I also put a lot of time into ensuring that each evenings events are a pleasant and enjoyable evening for all who attend. Again all for free.

If I don't get the audience in, then I don't survive. So I see nothing wrong in trying to make other mudcatters aware of when my Folk evenings are on.

So please wise up, you guys who may think my postings are misplaced.

Since opening up this club, I have seen so much excellent local talent come through the doors - its just amazing.

A number of them are appearing on a Charity Cd that Lincolnshire will be pushing out shortly.

So, I know that I rely on artists very much to make my club, but sometimes I think some of you artists don't appreciate what efforts Club organisers go to, to ensure that your music is heard.

If you don't or cannot attend my folk club, which is Market Rasen Folk Club - http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.co.uk

then you don't have to read my threads, but I can tell you there is an awful lot of time and effort and pride that goes into all of this and I want to share it with anybody who wants to take an interest.
You never know, you may just be in the area one day, and wherever posible, I will do my best to give you a floorspot of 20 minutes.

Oh and incidentally, I have learned a lot from what all of you guys and gals posts. Mudcat is an excellent forum. :-)

This is not meant to be a gripe or moaning post, just trying to put my side.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Art Thieme...
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 01:01 AM

... freshly back from listening to ALL the previously mentioned music types and styles at the great and venerable Fox Valley Folk Fesival. My batteries are now fully charged.

Martin Gibson, I didn't see you there at Fox Valley -- so I ate your funnel cake. ;-)

Frank, I may have mentioned I got to take one lesson from you at the OTSFM, and then you joined the Weavers. It was the last formal lesson I ever took. After that it was piecemeal---bits and pieces from folks all over the U.S.A. ---! Back then it was obvious to me what a gift it was to have that single lesson from a master. (What you showed the group that day in Chicago was how to pick Pete's "Livin' In The Country" as it was picked by the two of you on your LP called Nonesuch--on Folkways. Thanks so much for what you showed me way back then, and also, now, in your good post. The cream does rise to the top !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 09:56 PM

Art, who says you piss me off?

Oh, I guess the MG you were referring to was Mary Garvey.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:49 AM

Hear, hear! That should be displayed somewhere prominent, Frank! Thank you!

lucky, welcome to the Mudcat. Sounds like a good *combo* to me!

kat

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 11:44 AM

Thank you JimmyT and Jerry. When I hear the great artists of American music I am so grateful that I live in a time where we can avail ourselves of this music on CD and the net. It is easier today to learn to play the banjo, guitar, or ? then it ever was. I remember searching in my younger days for someone who could show me something on the five-string in Los Angeles of the early fifties. There were not that many around. I ran across Eddie Mann who showed me how to play a basic strum. Pete Seeger's book was not widely available at that time. And he hadn't modified or updated it yet. No one in L.A. in the folk circles I was traveling in knew much about Earl Scruggs or Don Reno. If you wanted to learn the blues, you had to travel into the black community and search out the players such as K.C. Douglas in Richmond, Calif. or Jesse Fuller. Lightning Hopkins and Thunder Smith were playing on Central Avenue in downtown L.A. but it was not as accessible to a white kid although I have to say whenever I visited Watts to meet with some musical jazz friends, I was treated very well, with manners and tolerance.
Today we have videos and now DVD's of our favorite artists and can learn in the living room and jam with all kinds of interested musicians.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Peace
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

Ditto what jimmyt said.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 09:54 PM

Frank, you pretty much summed it all up. Next time someone whines about "that's not really folk music" or " What is folk music?" we can just say, "Ask Frank"

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: lucky_p
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 08:14 PM

This is great! I'm just so grateful and enamored that there is at least small cadre of people interested in discussing these matters. Thank you all for rendering some humility to this bespectacled old Jewish radical (should be) grannie who imagines herself as a combination Madame Defarge, Malvina Reynolds, and Mother Jones.

Peace,

lucky

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

Wonderful posting, Frank!

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:28 PM

I've been studying folk music for over fifty years and I've come to the conclusion that I really don't quite know what it is. So, it's the music, words. culture and history that are important to me.

I have tried to approach it from a musical standpoint. Tried to learn to play it, see what makes it tick from the standpoint of harmony, melody, modes, rhythm, counterpoint, vocal and instrumental.

I used to think that it was a form of expression that was somehow separate from other forms of music, and now I don't believe that anymore. I hear jazz in the blues, blues in the appalachian songs and bluegrass, country sounds in the blues, popular music in the ballads (even the trad ones), minstrel tunes in bluegrass and old timey, American banjo playing in Irish music, Irish keening in mountain ballads, minor singing against the major chords of the hymns, religious in the secular and secular in the religious. I hear folk in the rock music, African music in Motown and Hip Hop, and now Hip Hop is all over the world. I hear be bop in B.B. and down home blues in Bird. I hear the wailing of Indian shanai in Coltrane. Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller and James P. Johnson in Mississipi John Hurt, Rev. Gary Davis and Big Bill.
I hear thirteenth chords and diminished chords in Pete's banjo. I hear the "concert artists" such as Jean Ritchie and Redpath following a traditional classical music pattern of performing for paying audiences. Doc Watson plays "Over the Rainbow" and Rockabilly when he does his accoustic country counterpoint. I hear Jimmy Rodgers and Texas Gladden in his singing. Also Ernest Tubbs. I hear the Golden Gate Quartet and Dixie Hummingbirds in the Bluegrass gospel music. "It Is No Secret", a Gospel hymn by Stuart Hamblin, a Country/Western singer (when they had that category) was a staple of African-American gospel churches. I hear old English parlor songs in the Carter Family and some vaudeville numbers there too.

In short, I no longer believe that there is one clear path to American folk music. It's a big stew and the solution to the problem of learning it is to study how it's been used in the extraordinarilly various ways. Sometimes, a genre creeps in that seems definitive and then that is shown to be influenced by something else. A solution to it's study for me has been to learn how so and so does it and look to the background and history of the song or tune.

The person that tries to keep folk music pure is tilting at windmills. As human beings in geneology, we are all said to be descendents of Halfdan the Warty and Erik the Fart but I think we probably go back to preZinganthropus in the Oldavai Gorge in Africa. Music follows our species in the same way, a long river with myriad tributaries.

There is no pure English, Irish, American, Scottish or any other national or international music but there are elements that we recognize and honor. They can be studied, played, sung and enjoyed with the rigors of learning any musical discipline through notes or without notes. The artists that we admire have cultivated a craft through spending a lot of time at it and whatever it turns out to be reflects that sincerity, conviction and perspicacity that it takes to learn it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: mg
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 01:31 AM

I love reading about the events in Hull and elsewhere. I participate sort of vicariously. I read about the ferry schedules and the sleeping arrangements and food at the pub. It's like reading a travel brochure. I also think it is very important to publicize our own events, like Sunnycamp etc.....these are extremely fun, often quite inexpensive, ways to sing all weekend with nice people....the more dots we connect throughout the world and in our own areas, the better off we all are. And you never know, someone from afar could be traveling at exactly that moment and decide to join you. mg

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 11:21 PM

My Dear Fine Art,

I won't, if you won't (die that is!).:-)

Your postings are ALWAYS well-worth time spent and very informative. Who cares if you piss off the MG's of the world; they've not proven themselves worthy, anyway.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:45 PM

I just refreshed an old thread. It is the first thread I started here, and it has lots of very good comments by some of the greats of mudcat. Art, Jerry, Mudlark, Don Firth, Deckman, Amos, MTed, etc. I think it is worth a read. Hope you enjoy it.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM

Art, Let me say how much I appreciate your posts. There are really quite a lot of folks like you, Jerry Rasmussen, and yes, Martin Gibson who have been kicking around this folk music world for a long time and it is fascinating to get you guys' insight about what has happened over the last few decades of American folk music. Please keep making your contributions. People are listening and learning. jimmyt

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Peace
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:06 PM

In many ways, the 'definition' of folk--not something I care to tackle--influences the responses people give to questions. When it is a directly-related "history" question, things can be fairly unequivocal and answers are right, wrong or might be. The pursuit of scholarship most often precludes side trips down Flame Alley. However, the fragmentation of music into categories (is House of the Rising Sun by the Animals still a folk song?) causes people who work in specialty areas to focus IN those areas. And we got lotsa areas out there.

I always thought Martin was a good guy, and I look forward to hearing him play sometime in the next year or so. My own musical quests tend to lean more to 'folk/rock' kinda stuff, but I love good music regardless how it's been actegorized, and nothing beats a great performance by any master of his/her art/craft.

Good thread, Martin.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 10:03 PM

I do hate it when one of you dies, so please quit doing that. ;-)


OK, let's all take the pledge!

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 09:29 PM

Folks, I'm here. Never left. And, Susan, thanks for the unique kids book.
Chris, I will be at Fox Valley Folk Fest over Labor Day. Hope it's not too wet there for my wheels.

About this good thread: I do better writing out info when I know someone is looking for specific things I, surprisingly, might have info on. That is why I like to add my two cents into threads on a topic I might know a bit about. (See the "Who Is Steve Goodman" thread.)I rarely start threads because I am not a self-motivator. I like what I like and when I say those things I sincerely beleieve to be the truth of what folk music "IS" I piss off the MGs among us. So, realizing, I won't change minds out there by being strident myself, I've chosen to avoid those threads. Mainly those are the BS threads of late. --- But where I can be helpful, I will be here.

Thanks for "all the good people" out there and in here at Mudcat. It's a good thing to check back with you all. I do hate it when one of you dies, so please quit doing that. ;-)

Art Thieme
(P.S.---A new CD from some older tapes of mine will be coming out some day soon--thanks to the good work of Dennis Cook in Maryland. To be called CHICAGO TOWN AND POINTS WEST, please consider this just a warning--and a rather blatent plug as well.---Sandy Paton is involved in this as well.)

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 04:07 PM

Y'know, just possibly there's another reason that specifically the mudcat 'mericans don't talk as much about 'merican folk music...

Age.

It struck me as almost phenomenal that at nearly 50 I was young for this site.

The American folk music scene -- when taken as broadly including singer-songwriters, bluegrass, old-timey and actual folk music is as vibrant today as it has ever been -- maybe even eclipsing the folk scare of the 60s. Sure, we don't get played on top 40 radio these days, but what does?

We sell more recordings than ever before.
We have bigger festivals and more of them
We have radio programs dedicated to folk -- many to specific styles.

But this is where the age of the mudcat comes in...

...what we seem to lack is the older generation taking an interest in what the young ones are doing. The American mudcat represents a very old demographic --- one that is still arguing whether or not it is acceptable to listen to the Kingston Trio. The older ones here are adamantly protecting what is left of the folk world that was vibrant when they were more actively participating.

But the older among us here are also, on the whole, more articulate. They tell better stories and at one time showed the care to share that kind of stuff here -- the younger enjoyed it but, by coincidence, serendipity, whatever, the younger ones who have come and gone didn't find a reciprocal interest in what they had to say.

The music didn't sound the same.

Just another guess.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM

The US touring folkie pro's are often farther away from home than their UK counterparts, with much more ground to cover beween gigs. So, less posting time. UK performing-pro Mudcatters just seem to post oftener than, say, Jed Marum or Seamus Kennedy.

~Susan

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:12 PM

Excellent way of putting it John Hardly.

Is it that we are just less uptight about it all? More flexible?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:46 AM

'mericans, like me, are much more likely to care less about the hard edged lines of folk/non-folk.

We not only accept the same blurred edges that our best folk musicians accept -- we revel in them. We love our Sam Bushes who play bluegrass, jazz and rock 'n' roll. We love our Tim O'Briens who play bluegrass, swing, old-timey and celtic. We love our Tony Rices who play jazz and bluegrass. We love our folk mixed well with blues. We love the best of our singer-songwriters who, like Pierce Pettis, Peter Mulvey, LJ Booth, Jack Williams, Cheryl Wheeler, et al, who aren't afraid to marry the best of rock and even pop to make a song more listenable, more interesting, more moving.

We blur our lines and we like it that way...

...but when we blur the lines here (on mudcat) there's always some folk nazi here to remind us that we just don't "get it". And it's not that we are insecure about our eclectic tastes -- we just tire of that very old discussion -- even if we accept a "provenance" as opposed to "style" view of "folk" music.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:49 AM

Martin--

Excellent thread--

A couple of possibilities--

As has been pointed out many times already on the thread, distances are much more substantial in the US---makes it a lot more difficult for folkies to get together.

This is by definition a forum about words. It's possible that a lot of bluegrass and country perfomers ( and possibly fans) either are naturally laconic ( there's a long and honored tradition of that) or just don't want to discuss their music in the kind of depth that often happens here. Added to that, discussions of who wrote a song are less likely on this side of the pond, since it's usually known (even slightly controversial songs like "Darcy Farrow" and "Long Black Veil" have now been dealt with).

Also, there is absolutely no US festival that compares with Sidmouth as to numbers of Mudcatters who attend, with Whitby also likely in this category. Particularly now, it may seem there's an obsession with these two, but they have just finished and they come just about right on top of each other. There's also a lot of concern particularly with Sidmouth, since from being one year perhaps the biggest folk festival in Europe, it's suddenly unclear what the future holds at all--it's essential to keep it going next year as "just the fringe"-- which is actually some of the best music-making in the world--in order that the full festival start up again in 2006.

I have a lot more to say on this great topic, but have to get ready to go to Eastern
Pennsylvania to a Folk Song Weekend--to do stuff like sing and play parodies, continue my struggle, with like-minded others, against the RUS "hymn sing approach", and sing sea songs while swimming in the pond--now that's good exercise. Besides, I'm getting flak here at home--she says I'm doing too much "Mudcatting around" (as Flatt and Scruggs
might say).

Bye for now.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 08:31 AM

Another yeah, not to limit folk music to political and sociological songs. For people who aren't in the folk community, those are the songs that are least likely to "go over" when I perform, unless it's something with humor, like Penny's Farm or John Johanna.

Jerry

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM

Many thanks to the Emeritus Professor of Geography and Demography at Hull University, for setting us straight on a few basic points.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:30 AM

I'm right with you Martin Gibson, but I'll leave it at that so as not to encourage more thread-creep. Joy

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:31 PM

Hello=
Maybe its becuse England is bigger than america, and there is more of us here?

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:26 PM

lucky p

Folk music does not always have to have a social and political agenda. Personally, it is that part of folk music, especially the political part that I really don't like. Tight vocal harmonies and nice picking are much more my style. I also kind of think it is more of the style many American's prefer.

Now I really did not want to have this thread degenerate into another "what is folk" thread.

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:07 PM

Hey, I am an American Mudcatter... sort of... just no one gives a damn about what I have to say about anything... but we're here... as Phil Ochs said, singing in the face of crule men... we're the folks you don't hear on the radio (exept for Ron Olesko and WABI - )
Cheers
Larry