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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST Date: 29 Jul 23 - 07:55 AM my name is joe i have talked many times about folk tunes that are first hymn tunes. i heard a some one talked about the song when the worlds on fire o my loving brother. the song you are thinking about was first recorded in 1929 by the carter family. and is now no'n this land is your land. to say thank you for this |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Jack Campin Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:36 AM There's a hideous one in the 'Celebration Hymnal' - 'Will you come and follow me if I but call your name' which is put to the tune of 'The Shearing's not for you' but speeds it up so it bounces along like an old VW Microbus on its last springs... it's disgusting. It just occurred to me that if you speed up "Kelvingrove" (the tune for "The Shearing's Not for You") you end up with something very close to "Soldier's Joy", and both tunes must have a common origin (in the 18th century). "Kelvingrove" was probably used for hymns before "The Shearing's Not For You" was written. Outrage about it being misappropriated is off target. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 26 Aug 12 - 09:47 PM "Linstead Market", the sad song about a woman who can't sell her ackees in the market, has been used a hymn tune. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Ringer Date: 04 May 11 - 07:03 AM Ah, Liz the Squeak: we have the same allergy! See my post of 06 May 02 - 06:58 AM in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Jack Campin Date: 04 May 11 - 06:39 AM There's one, some drivel about "you for me and me for you" from "The Iona Community", whatever that is, sung to a version of The Shearing's Not For You (aka Kelvin Grove), which turns an unbelievably lovely melody into a trite dotted-crotchet jingle. The Iona Community are an okay bunch of people, whatever their musical tastes. http://www.iona.org.uk has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between the meoldy of It's gift to be Simple and passages from Hayden's Surprise symphony? It's much closer to a tune quoted in one of Bartok's Rhapsodies for violin and orchestra (predating Copland's use of it by about ten years). I'd guess that Haydn and Bartok both got it from Hungarian-or-nearby folk tradition, and that the same tune made its way to the US from central Europe. Anybody know what if anything "And did those feet in ancient time" (lyric by William Blake) was sung to before Parry composed "Jerusalem"? I'd be very surprised if there were any setting of it. Parry wrote it in 1916 for a women's suffrage meeting: Hubert Parry and Jerusalem and surely Blake's radicalism was the point. That would not have been acceptable in mainstream churches before then. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,pdwilson Date: 03 May 11 - 11:07 PM The hymn the summer days are come again to the tune Forest Green is a real favourite of mine as it always reminds me of care free days during the summer holidays in my childhood. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: The Doctor Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:20 PM In The English Hymnal(1933) 44 tunes are listed as English Traditional Melodies, with a further 5 as English Traditional Carols and one specifically as an English Traditional May Day Carol. I've not so far identified all of them, and some have already been mentioned, but to add to the list there is East Horndon, set to the words 'I think when I read that sweet story of old' but named after the village where VW collected 'The Bold Fisherman', Capel to 'The church of God a kingdom is', collected by Lucy Broadwood from some gypsies who sang 'King Pharim sat a-musing', and Gosterwood to 'When spring unlocks the flowers', but originally to 'The brisk, young lively lad'. In another hymnbook was Holy Well, set to 'For thee, O dear, dear country', but found in its original form in The Oxford Book of Carols, and by the Copper Family set to 'Pleasant month of May'. 'O God of earth and altar' I have only ever sung to Kings Lynn, the subject of another thread, while 'Wir pflugen und wir streuen', the tune to 'We plough the fields and scatter', I have only ever seen by its German title, and said to be arranged from JAP Schulz. But it does go very well to John Barleycorn. Shirley Collins' 'Blacksmith', by the way, combines verses from that and 'Our Captain cried'. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM Liz, I think the problem is not with the hymn, but with your accompanist and director. There is no reason for the song to bounce brainlessly along like that. You have my symphathy. Guest, I have heard "Why should the devil have all the best tunes?" attributed to Martin Luther. This is probably a floating quotation, like a floating verse. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:29 PM There's a hideous one in the 'Celebration Hymnal' - 'Will you come and follow me if I but call your name' which is put to the tune of 'The Shearing's not for you' but speeds it up so it bounces along like an old VW Microbus on its last springs... it's disgusting. LTS |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,Guest Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:10 AM Fascinating discussion! I'm told that Johann Sebastian Bach used to use songs sung at local pubs and harmonize them and put religious words to them, with the comment, "Why should the devil have all the best tunes?" |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Burke Date: 28 Jun 04 - 06:32 PM Nice hymn. It seems to be inspired by Psalm 139. It's so loose, it would be hard to call it a paraphrase. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 27 Jun 04 - 07:10 PM Here are new words to the hymn tune Prospect. (from the Faith We Sing hymnal...no other info yet, PM me if interested) THE LONE WILD BIRD The lone, wild bird in lofty flight is still with you, nor leaves your sight. And I am yours! I rest in you. Great Spirit, come, rest in me, too. The ends of earth are in your hand. The sea's dark deep and far off land. And I am yours! I rest in you. Great Spirit, come, rest in me, too. Each secret thought is known to you, the path I walk my whole life through; my days, my deeds, my hopes, my fears, my deepest joys, my silent tears. In secret depths you knit my frame, before my birth you spoke my name; within my soul, as close as breath, so near to me, in life, in death. O search me, God, my heart reveal, renew my life, my spirit heal; for I am yours, I rest in you, Great Spirit, come, rest in me, too. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: masato sakurai Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:26 PM From Marion J. Hatchett, A Companion to The New Harp of Columbia (Univ. of Tennessee Press, 2003, p. 199): PROSPECT |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Burke Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:59 PM With the 1835 date I checked the Online Southern Harmony, since that's when the 1st ed. was published. It's there with the Graham attribution. I guess that's the earliest publication of it that Warren Steel could find. Graham only gets credit for the 1 tune, so I'd say no one knows who he or she was. You can see it Here |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,gkwalton@hemc.net Date: 11 Feb 04 - 09:28 PM I am looking for information on the tune PROSPECT found in the SACRED HARP 1844, and CHRISTIAN HARMONY. Credit for tune is given to Graham, 1835. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Joybell Date: 14 Sep 03 - 06:49 PM Lassie wi' the yellow coatie Would ye weed a highland laddie? cf: In the cross in the cross Be my glory ever There is an excellent book on the subject of popular song in America between 1790 and 1860. Hymns were popular songs then. It covers, among other subjects, the use of folk tunes for these songs. The book is "Sweet Songs for Gentle Americans - The Parlor Song in America, 1790-1860" by Nicholas Tawa Bowling Green University Press. 1960. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,Glyn Owen Date: 14 Sep 03 - 06:12 PM "Our captain calls all hands" (Pop MAynard on TOPIC's voice of the people) has a similar tune to TO BE A PILGRIM, but old Pops tune I feel is far superior -it has some amazing stops and starts and the vocal expressions are mesmerising. Check it out GLYN |
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Subject: ''Michael, Row the Boat Ashore.'' From: GUEST Date: 13 Sep 03 - 08:52 PM |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Burke Date: 27 Aug 03 - 06:20 PM Jerry mentions a use of Air from Derry (aka Londonderry Air) above. There's a better know hymn for Danny Boy. I cannot tell why He whom angels worship. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: John Hardly Date: 27 Aug 03 - 04:16 AM Genie mentions The Water Is Wide -- my hymnal suggests that as an alternate melody for When I Survey The Wondrous Cross. Somebody (perversly) suggested the setting of Amazing Grace to the (almost folk song) theme to Gilligan's Island. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST Date: 27 Aug 03 - 01:56 AM I heard a startling hymn this summer on Sunday morning of the Keith TMSA festival. It used the tune of The Barnyards of Delgaty, (and a slight variation thereof for the chorus), and I swear, it sounded entirely appropriate. Unfortunately, I didn't capture the hymn on tape and even managed to lose my church program, so if anyone else has ever heard it (and knows anything about the "wedding" of tune and hymn), I'd love to be enlightened. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 03 - 03:32 AM I like "Children of the Heavenly Father," which is set to a Swedish folk tune. Here it is at the cyberhymnal: http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/o/cofthehf.htm |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,Levonmarius Date: 25 Aug 03 - 08:42 PM I have been looking up Bunessan bc it's the tune to two hymns in my Catholic music book (an old one no longer in use at my church for a few years now). I like the information that everyone has posted. Thanks for posting it where it can be read by all. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Jim McLean Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:02 PM Mary, neither of the tunes are familiar to me but you do make your point eloquently. Cheers, Jim McLean |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 30 Jul 02 - 03:06 PM Jim, I had not noticed that similarity, but you're right! I also notice tune similarities, usually in the chord progressions and melodic intervals. I've learned on Mudcat that this is very subjective, and not everyone hears the same thing. In this thread about the hymn tune Resignation, I hear so much similarity with the tune St. Columba that I get the two mixed up. I also happen to like both of them and created this short page to show the similarities. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Jim McLean Date: 30 Jul 02 - 12:51 PM I have just stumbled across this site and can add that Morning is Broken, the Elizabeth Farjeon song, was written to the tune of The Blessed Child, a Gaeic song written by a Mrs MacDonald of Bunessan. We sang it in English as 'Child in a Manger' Also has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between the meoldy of It's gift to be Simple and passages from Hayden's Surprise symphony? Cheers, Jim McLean |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 30 Jul 02 - 12:06 PM The National Anthem of Germany is the 3. stanza of the "Lied der Deutschen" (= song of the Germans) and starts: Unity, justice and liberty for the German fatherland. Let us all work for it as brethren with heart and hand ... The text was written on British territory, the island of Heligoland, now German (exchanged for Sansibar). The starting lines "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" were misunderstood by many neighbouring peoples; the poet put "Deutschland" as an ethnic entity against the more than 30 particular states of his time and called, as so many others since 1806, for a unity. Unfortunately it came 1871 with the bloody Prussians reigning. The melody was written by Joseph Haydn and is theme of his "Emperor's quartet". It isn't Austria's anthem anymore, since the text was "God save Francis, the Emperor ..." As I know, but I may err, the Austrians now have for their anthem a chorus of Mozart's Magic Flute: "Brethren give your hands for a Federation ..." There are two tunes for the "Ode to Joy", one by Beethoven, one a folk tune (link above). I never - NEVER! - heard it sung to the tune of the "Song of the Germans" in the 59 years of my life, and I have travelled a lot through my native country. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: alanabit Date: 30 Jul 02 - 05:26 AM The "Deutschland; Deutschland Über Alles" verse is not sung any more. It starts off with something about brotherhood and unity - I think. I haven't listened to it for a while. I believe the tune for "God Save the Queen" was composed by a German. I wonder how that suits some of our football bigots! |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 Jul 02 - 05:20 AM Genie: As mentioned in another thread, "Glorious things of Thee are spoken" does share its tune with "Deutschland Deutschland" (the German National anthem) but the tune is "Austria" (also the Austrian national anthem) and was written by Haydn (Austrian). It is a little disconcerting that the tune of the German anthem is interchangeable with the "European anthem" "Ode to Joy" Nigel |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Haruo Date: 29 Jul 02 - 04:16 AM Anybody know what if anything "And did those feet in ancient time" (lyric by William Blake) was sung to before Parry composed "Jerusalem"? Over a century elapsed. But then I don't think Blake wrote it as a hymn, and it may simply not have been sung earlier. It could be sung to most any LMD tune (e.g. Candler aka Ye Banks & Braes), of course. Or for that matter be lopped in twain and sung as four LM stanzas. Liland |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 28 Jul 02 - 08:17 AM Yes Genie. I read some other threads, and just thought folks who new it knew all the other stuff. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Genie Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:25 AM The UU hymnal "Singing The Living Tradition" has both "Be Thou My Vision" and another song "Wake, Now, My Senses" to the "Slane" tune. It also has 3 English verses to "De Colores" (which I posted in a "De Colores" thread) and a lovely song based on I Corinthians: 13 called "Though I May Speak" which is sung to "The Water Is Wide" (which is the same lyric Mary cited as "The Gift of Love"). Then there is "The Flower Carol" to the tune "Good Kind Wenceslas." Masato, as usual, you are wonderful. Thanks for the link to the Vaughan Williams essay. Nigel, I love your "Slaine" lyrics!! Don't forget that "Amazing Grace" can -- and has been (effectively, I'd add) -- sung to the tune of the Animals' version of "House Of The Rising Sun." Katherine Lee Bates's "America The Beautiful" was, for two years after it was written, sung to just about any popular or folk tune it would fit -- most notably, "Auld Lang Syne." Mary in Kentucky, isn't the tune for "Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken" also the tune to "Deutschland, Deutschland Über Alles?" |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 28 Jul 02 - 12:41 AM Come, O Thou Traveler Unknown This is listed at the cyberhymnal here [http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/o/comeotho.htm], and the tune is named "Candler," Scottish traditional. Another midi of this hymn is found on this page. [http://www.mcn.org/k/woodworks/Pages/organcontents.htm] I know it as Bonnie Doon or Ye Banks and Braes. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 May 02 - 12:57 AM Uncle Jaque, I found a version in Randolph, as sung by Mrs. Marie Wilbur of Arkansas. The title here is "How Tedious and Tasteless the Hours." Since this thread is long and non-specific, I will post it under that title in a new thread. "Greenfields" has been used for a completely different modern tune and song in the DT and Forum, although Sandburg used it (he reproduced text and music from the Missouri Harmony, 1808, page 152-155). The author is unknown, although Newton has been named in some later hymn books. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Uncle Jaque Date: 28 May 02 - 11:47 PM One of my favorites is "Greenfields", attributed to John NEWTON in 1779, but generally assumed to be based on a much earlier English folk song. I would certainly love to find the older lyrics, as it a beautiful, sweet, flowing air indeed, and seems somewhat beyond the rather stilted (IMHO)religious lyrics NEWTON stuck to it in 1779. Searching the internet has yielded nothing besided the Newton version; might anyone have insight as to the more "primal" incarnation of "Greenfields"? I particularly like doing it on my black walnut low "G" open - holed flute "Gilead". |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 May 02 - 04:32 PM Forgot the clickie for a little information on "Simple Gifts." Shaker |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 May 02 - 04:28 PM Most people confuse Shaker songs and Shaker hymns. In the earlier ones, songs, such as "Simple Gifts" has one verse, while hymns generally had two. "Simple Gifts" according to tradition, was written by Elder Joseph Brackett, 1797-1882, of Alfred, Maine. Anecdotes tell of him singing and dancing the song, "coattails flying." Kathy, I believe the song you refer to is "O Brighter Than The Morning Star." A long time since I have heard it, but I believe it was a two-verse hymn. Your version may be a rewrite. Words of a number of the more popular Shaker songs have been revised. Many songs were written, the great majority preserved only in manuscript. Some of the more popular have entered the folk tradition, but research can point out the probable authors of some. The Shaker Library, New Gloucester, Maine, has thousands of manuscripts, including numerous songs. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,kathy Date: 28 May 02 - 03:14 PM If folk tunes are those of the people, sung by the people, then you should be in Padstow on the Sundays leading up to Christmas to hear the Padstow carols. One or two people have sung them out of Padstow but the carollers have only been out of the town once and that was to sing them at the Festival of Village carols in Sheffield in 2000. My favourite hymn has to be the Shaker Bright Morning Star, sung very quietly with stunning harmonies, late at night where harmony singers are gathered together... hairs on back of neck or what? |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 May 02 - 12:28 AM "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" is a hymn by Ada R. Habershon and Charles H. Gabriel, about 1908 (data recently posted to thread 2479: Will the Circle ). Completely new words were set to it, apparently by A. P. Carter and possibly others, but the same title was kept. Somehow, possibly through the Grand Old Opry, the hymn got credited to "Fanny" Crosby, a prolific hymn writer, but who did not write it. See above mentioned thread, which gives a link to the Cyberhymnal. The title of the later song is often changed to "Can The Circle Be Unbroken" (see the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band album of that name). Ralph Vaughan Williams, in addition to his original scores, collected many folk songs and arranged them for chorus and/or orchestra. He wrote new music or arranged music for both hymns and folk songs. He "stole" nothing; everything was credited or acknowledged. A superb composer and musician, he should be considered among the greatest of the English composers. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: masato sakurai Date: 27 May 02 - 11:32 PM "He Looked Beyond My Fault" was written by Dottie Rambo in 1968. The Rambos version is on All Time Southern Gospel CD. The original lyrics are: "He looked beyond my fault and saw my need" & "How marvelous the grace that caught my falling soul." The lyrics and score are in Songs of Zion (no. 31), African American Heritage Hymnal (no. 249), and Gospel's Best ~ Words and Music (Hal Leonard, p. 77). ~Masato
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 27 May 02 - 10:53 PM My gospel quartet sings He Looked Beyond My Faults and Saw My Needs, which is sung to the tune of Danny Boy which, according to my hymnal was adapted from Londonderry Aire:
"Amazing grace shall always be my song of praise
I shall forever lift mine eyes to Calvary The song has been recorded by the Five Blind Boys, among many other groups. Jerry
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: masato sakurai Date: 27 May 02 - 08:35 PM The tune to "The Lily of the Valley" (Click here for lyrics & MIDI) is from W.S. Hayes' "Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane" (1871) (Click here for lyrics & MIDI). Fiddlin' John Carson recorded a fiddle version in 1923, which became "the first commercially marketed hillbilly record." ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: GUEST,songbird Date: 27 May 02 - 08:08 PM Do you know where "Lilly of the Valley came from? I knew the same tune was used for the other songs but where did the original tune come from? |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: masato sakurai Date: 13 May 02 - 10:31 PM "Come, Come, Ye Saints" is in Margaret Bradford Boni's Fireside Book of American Songs (Simon and Shuster, 1952, pp. 300-301). The music is the same as the one linked to by Burke, but the 3rd verse is different. ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Burke Date: 13 May 02 - 06:59 PM That's it Leland. With the title I found it HERE Includes the sound. The tune is pretty much the same. I'd put this in the same class as the other American folk hymn tunes I mentioned earlier. I wonder if anyone has really connected it with an English folk song. The Sacred Harp gives J.T. White an arrangement credit. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Haruo Date: 13 May 02 - 01:35 PM Burke, is the Mormon hymn you refer to "Come, come, ye Saints"? If so, I believe it was originally not Mormon, but was widely current when the Mormons were first singing, and was adapted by them and the text revised following the exodus to Deseret. Or wherever it was they exodused to. Zion, y'know. Anyhow, the tune is similar to "All is Well", and the text ends "All is well! All is well!" It's #30 in the 1985 LDS hymnal (which I was blessed enough to pick up for 50 cents a couple months ago), also a Men's Chorus setting at #326. And I think it's in the old Fireside American book, which I don't have but was brought up on. Liland |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: IanC Date: 13 May 02 - 12:01 PM Trevor Not really surprising that they used "To Be a Pilgrim" for "Our Captain Cried All Hands" as the tune for "To Be a Pilgrim" was taken from this song (the tune's also used for "A Blacksmith Courted Me").
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Trevor Date: 13 May 02 - 11:45 AM Didn't Steeleye also record 'Our Captain cried "all hands"' to the 'to be a pilgrim' tune? John Shepherd (Albion Dance Band etc) is the organist in a local church and I remember picking out the strains of 'To be a farmer's boy' in the recessional one harvest time. One of my favourite songs at the moment was written by Mal Brown, who used the tune of 'Dear Lord and Father' for a song about the Crimean War. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Dave Bryant Date: 13 May 02 - 11:33 AM "We plough the fields and scatter" tune was definitely borrowed from "John Barleycorn" and not vice versa. If you were writing a hymn it's not a bad idea to start off with a tune which many of the congregation would already know. Mind you some hymn tunes have gone the other way. "On Ilkley Moor Baht 'At" is sung to a hymn tune called "Cranbrook" written by Thomas Clark - it was originally used for "While Shepherds Watched". Then of course Sydney Carter borrowed the tune of the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts" for his song "Lord of the Dance" - although you could classify his song as another hymn. |
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Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes? From: Burke Date: 13 May 02 - 10:20 AM Liland, you are correct, I was writing from memory. Bellevue is the tune with "How firm..." Nettleton is a different folk hymn tune widely used with "Come thou fount of every blessing." There's a very popular Mormon Hymn that uses basically the same tune as "All is Well," but I don't know the Mormon hymn. |
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