BS: One Thousand Gone

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,laurine
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:05 PM

who sings mothers love is a blessing

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:44 PM

I think there are two issues that are not at all connected.

1) Terrorism and 'pending' attacks on countries around the world.

2) Iraq.

One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM

nope.


We STILL don't really believe that such things can happen to us- and I expect they will again, before we really understand.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:07 PM

Oklahoma City didn't teach y'all anything?

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:58 PM

"The US was right in the Gulf War. It was NOT right this time to do with Iraq."

FROM what we knew at the time, it WAS right.



"And look at what you are saying. The intelligence source was the same for both 9/11 AND Iraq this time. "

So we should have paid attention for 9/11, and ignored it on Iraq???
It sounds like YOU are the one shooting yourself in the foot.

We were WRONG to have ignored it before 9/11, but there was a different mindset- we were innocent, and did not think that things like that could happen to us.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:53 PM

You want the bread buttered on both sides. That's why it's hard to hold.

The US was right in the Gulf War. It was NOT right this time to do with Iraq. And look at what you are saying. The intelligence source was the same for both 9/11 AND Iraq this time. Sooner or later, yer gonna get a sore foot if you keep putting rounds in it.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM

so, having found out thatthey had ignored the information about 9/11, you would want them to have ignored what they had on Iraq???????????

As I said, if you want them to have acted about 9/11, on poor intelligence, you can't reasonably complain when they did act on Iraq.
Unless your point is to deny that the US is EVER right in it's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Peace
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:38 PM

"but on what basis would you IGNORE such information?"

That would be a good question to ask the FBI and CIA. They did ignore information, as did Bush I think, and they could answer that, bb.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:34 PM

"You have a call from 2 neighbors and someone living with you that a known criminal who has violated parole before has a gun and is about to attack your house. How much investigation do you do before you call the police?"

In this case, the police inspected the neighbor's house and said he didn't have a gun. Mr Bush then had his people attack the house, destroying a good deal of it, and killed the neighbor's children and some other people who were staying there, though not the neifghbor. What they call "Lynch Law." At the cost of the lives of many of Mr Bush's own people.

An attack on Kuwait was not a declaration of war on the US. GWB or Cheney would have made a point of mentioning it, and they wouldn't have needed the WMD pretext.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:49 PM

and 9/11 was something of a first...

You have a call from 2 neighbors and someone living with you that a known criminal who has violated parole before has a gun and is about to attack your house. How much investigation do you do before you call the police?


Read the Senate report- the administration thought that the information was valid.

Simply to NOT act on the information one has is even greater stupidity.

IMHO means In My Honest Opinion. Yours may be different- but on what basis would you IGNORE such information?

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM

Beardedbruce, under what treaty was an attack on Kuwait an attack on the US? Wise up. And on what basis do you say IMHO, the information that was availible at the time, from British, Russian, and US sources ( now suspect, but so what- one has to act on what one has)[my emphasis]? I don't know about the US, but certainly for the UK it was something of a first to kick off a war on the basis of intelligence alone. There was surely an obligation to make sure the intelligence was based on something before setting about the slaughter of innocent people in their thousands? Simply "to act on what one has" is just crass stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: sledge
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:05 PM

BB,

What I meant to put over was that you stated there were some agreements between Kuwait and the USA, when I asked what they might be you stated that you were not sure but that there were UN resolutions in place. These resolution came into after the invasion of Kuwait and as such bears no place in your analogy whereby you say that Iraq effectivley declared war on the USA because of existing treaty obligations with Kuwait. So with the UN resloutions in force, if they had done it again then I would of course be wrong.

I may be wrong, certainly in your eyes I am, but I do blame Bush jr, surely the leader of the most powerful military nation on the planet with all the destrucive potential at his command could have forced compliance through more peaceful means, UN inspectors etc. I know they worked slowly which you don't seem to like but they did not lead to countless deaths as they worked, they may have cost a few millions of dollars, but a lot less than all the bomb and missiles dropped to date.

Didn't Hans Blick the UN appointed weapons inspector say that there were no WMD, surely that should have been enough for most rational people. Even Scott Ritter, someone who seemd quite dedicated stated that the weapons were no longer there, ok so his information was dated but so was that included in the UK government report, remember the dubious inclusion of a dated student thesis.

Bruce, you also critisize those who said Bush "don't do it", but try not to be to hard on them, I am sure that each time a news report starts with "another coalition soldier was killed today" they derive no satisfaction from being proved right to a degree, in fact those who were most vocal are, I imagine deeply saddened each time it happens, I know I am.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:26 AM

Excuse me: I misspoke in my last statement.

One can blame Bush, if one is more interested in being part of the problem than of the solution.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

not sure I understand:

"In that case, the resolutions post date the initial war, rendering the whole analogy invalid."

In both Kuwait and Korea, one side invaded the other, and then the UN passed resolutions authorizing force.


"As for any Iraqi threat to hit the US, even after a war that was a stunning humiliation for Iraq, they had never made any move to strike the US, or did they,? I am sure you will tell me. "

Have you read the British report on the Iraqi capacity for WMD, or seen the news about the Russian warning that Iraq was planning to attack the US?

REGARDLESS of how true they were, they were the best information that was available- and after 9/11, to NOT act at a credible threat would have been irrisponsible, and met with far more noise here than the war has.

One CANNOT blame Bush for NOT acting on the information about 9/11, before the act, and then blame him for acting on information that I would say was more credible and substantiated about Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM

If the money that was channeled into the military expedition against Iraq had been instead spent on infrastructure (roads, water, pipelines, schools and plumbing) in Afghanistan, it could have been turned into a Model Muslim Democracy, if such is possible, and the envy of Middle Eastern nations.

THAT would have reduced extremism and won some hearts and minds.

How come Rove and his puppet were too stupid to change history that way instead of the old way (invasion and violence) which has failed for centuries?

A

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: sledge
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:54 AM

As an aside, the US action in Afghanistan was one I fully supported, I felt that the ties between the Taliban and Al-queda were such that they were almost the same organisation and as such were as culpable as each other in the atrocity that was 9/11.

Regards

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: sledge
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM

In that case, the resolutions post date the initial war, rendering the whole analogy invalid.

As for any Iraqi threat to hit the US, even after a war that was a stunning humiliation for Iraq, they had never made any move to strike the US, or did they,? I am sure you will tell me. Was their infrastructure even capable of doing so anymore anymore? the most they did was switch on a few radars and make a few catch me if you can flights into the no fly zones, more of a move to salvage some self respect than any kind of threat.

I just think that the whole response by the Bush administration was excessive, so he ignored a few UN resolutions, thats not something that new in the history of the UN, the US was as one point in serious debt to the UN by failing to pay up its financial obligations to the tune of $365 million in the early 90's, this of course was period when Washington sort of liked the UN thanks to their support following the invasion of Kuwait, they only did so "when they saw fit" but not enough to counter their eventual debt of around $1.5 billion. Obligations to the UN should be a 2 way street then, resolutions or not I think.

The size of this debt has been part of US goverment policy for quite a while, when the US could command a majority in the UN which they did for some time, only those unfriendly to the US were pressured for payment as was the case with the Soviet union. However as their influance waned they sought to regain it by refusing to pay, putting pressure on the UN that way. Its a big stick to carry. While there are other countries who are in arrears none are ever as in debt as the US, who, could more easily settle her debt.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:07 AM

sledge:

Look at it this way:

"The Iragis had greater rescouces and technology than Al Queda, they would have been able to deploy this against the US sooner or later if they had been left alone, it made sense to remove them first, even if most people couldn't see this at the time."



IMHO, the information that was availible at the time, from British, Russian, and US sources ( now suspect, but so what- one has to act on what one has) indicated that Iraq presented a "clear and present danger" to the US. In even giving the UN the time to act that Bush did, he was NOT acting in the best interests of the US.

And I cannot consider those who protested the US actions against Iraq to be for peace- if they were, WHY did none of them ask Saddam to comply with the UN resoulutions of the previous 12 years? Not one sign, that I could see- but a lot telling the US not to act.

As for the treaties with Kuwait, I will be honest- I do not know. But we had UN resolutions there, just as we did in Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: sledge
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:57 AM

BB, look at what happened during the few months following Germany's declaration of war against the USA, U-boats decimated allied shipping on the east coast showing what a dangerous foe they were, one that could reach out to the US mainland almost, just try and look at the old newsreel footage that shows bodies and wreckage on Florida beaches, this was a shock to the US, one they weren't ready for.

The Germans had greater rescouces and technology than Japan, they would have been able to deploy this against the US sooner or later if they had been left alone, it made sense to remove them first, even if most people couldn't see this at the time.

I can see what you are saying here but I don't see it as holding up.

Just a quick question, did Kuwait and the US actually have a defense pact or was it just assumed?


Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:15 AM

Peter K (Fionn) -

". The fact is that the US did NOT "go to war against Germany" at all. Hitler declared war on the US. "


and I said that.

"Oh, you say that Germany declared war on us? Well, guess what: The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war"

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM

And Iraq, in attacking Kuwait, which had treaty ties to the US, declared war on US. THAT was my point.


"Mr Bush has said that there's no connection between Iraq and 911. though mr Cheney seems to differ.. Why did he interrupt the search for bin Laden, who was connected to 911 in order it attack Iraq at the price of all these deaths?


And why did we interrupt the war on Japan to attack Germany? You are implying that we should have just fought in the Pacific- yet we used vast resources in Europe that could have defeated Japan. Just possibly we have to look at the larger view.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:10 AM

Why did the US go to war against Germany in WWII? So asks beardedbruce. It continues to amaze me that millions of Americans don't know the answer to that question.

It wasn't anything to do with Churchill's pleading. And congress would not heed Roosevelt's advice either. The fact is that the US did NOT "go to war against Germany" at all. Hitler declared war on the US.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Bert
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:06 AM

Martin, You say "The nice ordinary folk Moslems are a minority and scared to death to speak out".

That wasn't my experience. I worked for over seven years in the Middle East and met hundreds of nice ordinary folk Moslems and never met one extremist. And most of those that I knew didn't have any problem discussing their religion politely and intelligently or speaking out.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:55 PM

"The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war"

On the US? I don't understand. Why didn't Mr Bush mention that instead of carrying on about WMDs and all that other fooferaw? I'd have thought a declaration of war on us would be enough.

Mr Bush has said that there's no connection between Iraq and 911. though mr Cheney seems to differ.. Why did he interrupt the search for bin Laden, who was connected to 911 in order it attack Iraq at the price of all these deaths? (I learned just lately that troops were withdrawn from the Afghanistan conflict and sent to Iraq.)

Explain, please.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

Safer does not mean safe.

Why did the US go to war against Germany in WWII? They did not attack us, Japan did. By the logic here, we should not have been in Europe, at all.

Oh, you say that Germany declared war on us? Well, guess what: The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war- and as I stated in previous threads, there was no end to that war- see the reference to no-fly zones above- Armed flights over another country, shooting down their aircraft, and bombing any anti-air sites that lock up are not exactly peaceful.

Even Kerry ( at one point, before he flipped/flopped) agreed that with what was known AT THE TIME, we should have attacked Iraq. If we had done so 6 months earlier, can anyone here say that we would be worse off?

People here keep saying to look at the money trail for all the attack ads- but never look at the money trail for the violators of the UN sanctiona against Iraq. See who was making mony off Saddam- then tell me we should have waited until the French agreed to an attack.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:25 PM

The weakness in the logic that the world is safer today because Hussein is sitting in jail: Why then is the world still nervous? Has the terrorist threat lessened with all that Bush has done? That's a question seeking an answer.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:29 PM

NYTimes Roster of the Dead

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM

surely DougR gets enough stick without Amos laying into him before he's even posted? Anyway, I'm kind of glad he's no longer a lone voice here, because a sizeable proportion of Americans obviously think as he does (so far as such a stance can result from "thought").

The miniscule finds that Larry's alking about didn't add up to a row of beans, which is why not even Bush/Cheney have claimed they found WMD. WMD PROGRAMS are something else entirely - never offered to the UN by Powell as a basis for starting a war, and with good reason. Both US and UN experts are pretty much agreed that Iraqi infrastructure after the earlier war, the effect of sanctions and the chaos-inducing nature of the Saddam regime over the past 10 years militated against any prospect of developing a serious program.

I hope the report on which Doug relies (and which I have not read) is honest enough to make clear that any training facility or other co-operation with Al Qaeda was confined to those havens in which Saddam's writ did not run - ie the no-fly zones.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

Cost of Sadamm murdering innocents:                200,000 lives+
Cost of heat wave in France:                        15,000 lives
Cost of 9/11                                        3,000 lives
Cost of liberating 50 million people                1,000 lives +
Cost of mudcatter agnony after Bush re-election-    Priceless

A few comments on the "facts" presented above:

No weapons of mass destruction- we found saran gas, mustard gas, long range missles, hidden laboratories, plans for making WMD's, and even some anthrax.   I guess none of that counts.

No ties between Sadamm and Al Queda- the number three man in Al Queda has his leg amputated in Sadamm's hospital and then was given haven in Iraq.   Several meetings documented between Sadamm and Al Queda- mostly an on again/off again relationship-kind of like a Kerry postion on anything.   ABSOLUTE connection between Sadamm and Hamas, Hezboleh and islamic Jihad- the terrorist "B" team.

0 captures of Ossama- but one capture of Sadamm and Uday and Ebay are dead ay.   (sorry- I couldn't resist)   And about 75% of al queday have been captured or killed.   And 43 of the 52 most wanted in Iraq have been captured or killed.   

0 free election in Iraq- it took 8 years in Germany to have a free election.   Iraq will be 7 years quicker.   Their government is already recognized by the UN.   How many free election in Bosnia since Milosivech was removed?   And that was how many year ago?

Lastly:

0 attacks on US soil since Bush took preemmptive action

1 former terrorist nation reformed (Lybia) without firing a shot

2 nations (France and Russia) exposed in the oil for food scandal

3 leaders (Putin/Musharif/Momar) have "seen the light" about terrorism

4. more years of Bush

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: DougR
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM

El Greko: Sorry, I didn't address your question to me.

Yes, I think we are safer than we were prior to 9/11. Yes, I think the world is safer because Saddam is sitting in a jail cell somewhere in Iraq.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: DougR
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:01 PM

SRS: you are DEAD wrong. I bought the 9/11 Commission's Report the day it was available at Barnes and Noble, and I have read it. It appears to me that you are getting YOUR information from the media rather than from the official source. Listening to the testimony does not provide you the whole story.

But what matter. You are one of the principal USA bashers here on the Mudcat come what may. If something goes wrong in the world, no doubt about it, Americans should look in the mirror because it is WE who have caused it.

Yet, when other countries turn for help when they need it, where do they turn to? And who provides it? The American people.

And the poster is right. No one appointed the US world police. But one question: when policing becomes necessary, who is going to do it if the US doesn't?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM

The insurgency opposition we've run into in Afghanistan and Iraq is not the kind that I want to run into any closer to home.

We are doing the world's dirty work, and it's a shame the world isn't doing more on its own to help out. I'm not saying the world has to join us militarily. I'm saying the world should pay a lot more attention to security issues and issues we're all going to face such as Iranian and North Korean nuclear weapons capability.


I'm going to repeat something I wrote elsewhere, an analogy I made to a film called: The Caine Mutiny with Humphrey Bogart in a memorable role as a badly unhinged ship's captain in WWII. His officers take control of the ship away from him and are courtmartialed for it. Their defense lawyer played by Jose Ferrer is pretty abusive toward them but he gets them off by putting so much pressure on the captain that he falls apart on the witness stand. As they are celebrating their not guilty verdict he shows up drunk and tells them off. The world was fighting for its civilized life, he says, and while they had a defective leader, they could have made do with him if they'd gotten together to support him instead of cutting him off at the knees. Instead, the effort they could have made to defeat the enemy was turned in on itself. That's how I see the lack of support from France, Germany, and Russia in particular. Bush is not a great leader, and he isn't 'right' on a lot of things but he's the guy we've got for now; the US deserved more support than it got, and that support could have been modulated to make Bush a whole lot more easy to live with. I think he deserved that much. And while the specific WMD assertions that were made were not backed up after we moved into Iraq, there is no proof that Bush lied to us. (I'm not going so far as to defend all the other guys in the US information system, there are some incompetent folk there).

As for the insurgency in Iraq, I think there are powerful forces maintaining it with money and weapons. Those forces are primed to install a repressive regime once we move out.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:50 PM

the Associated Press reported yesterday about 10,000 residents of Baghdad have been killed since the invasion--that includes militants, civilians, and victims of crimes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Amos
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:24 PM

Wolfgang, my remark to Doug was in reference to various past remarks of his on different threads but on similar topics.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM

Wolfgang, GROK is correct. Amos' post was an echo back to a different thread where DougR was arguing a similar point.

The numbers-game that GUEST noted is quite appropriate here. The numbers dead from all nations in this conflict should also be noted in the American media, but the media have blinders on regarding anyone who falls into the "Other" category. Yesterday NPR did have a brief discussion as to the numbers all around, including the information that while there are over 1000 dead now, there are many thousands of American troops who have been wounded (something around 7000). I didn't hear/don't know numbers for non-Americans combatants and civilians wounded vs. killed.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: sledge
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM

I think Martins comment about Muslims is typical of him, a sweeping generalisation that can, in no way be proved.

As personal experience is often given more credence than papers, tv etc on this forum, I would like to add mine. I have been working in Algeria, a country with a terrorist problem of its own, for just over five years, and I have enjoyed it. During that time none of the thousands of Algerians around me or my collegues have opened up a can of Jihad on our ass. Our work crew includes Americans (both North and South), Brits, Canadians, Italians, Hungarians, Dutch, Germans, French, Syrians, Norwegians, Russians and we all get on.

Besides, those terrorists that want to kill Americans or any other nationality no longer have to go to the US or Europe, they have a nice big play ground in Iraq to do that courtesy of Bush, Blair and the like.

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:14 AM

At the risk of confusing the situation, I think that Amos' post (#4 from the top) may have been an 'open' address to Doug carried over from another thread. ?????

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:00 AM

Can someone help me understanding what has happened in this thread?

Has a post by Doug been eliminated?

Amos attacks Doug who had not yet posted here on my screen, a quote is attributed to Doug but on my screen he has never written that?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

"the country", of course means USA in this instance. There are other countries after all....

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM

Tonight at 8:00 PM, people all over the country will be gathering SILENTLY (no partisanship, speeches, or chanting allowed) in candle light vigils to honour the >1,000 dead. Find the one nearest you if you wish.

find vigil

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:18 AM

MG, "they" won't f*** with us because Bu$h and the House of Saud and the bin Ladens have business ties that go back many, many years. Has it escaped your attention that Bu$h has lost interest in ObL?

It's ALL about the greenbacks, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:58 AM

DougR wrote:

"1000+ dead further down the line"

What is it with some(note I said some) Americans (and I include the media in that sweeping generalisation) that ignores every other nationality, especially the Iraqis, a great many of whom were innocent, who have died.

The loss of ANY life is to be regretted. Take some responsibility for the policies and actions you condone - you are as responsible as the soldier who pulls the trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:50 AM

...the Democrats want to fix that LEJ...they want to reinstate the draft with no college deferment, no running off to Canada, so that (get this) the U.S Army will be more equal, class-wise. What a crock. Rich kids fighting for oil right alongside poor kids, who historically have joined up voluntarily in order to take advantage of opportunities (to learn a skill or a trade, or to get money for college).

Whoever gets elected in November, I'm not holding my breath that this war will end anytime soon.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:15 AM

Rich Man's War

Jimmy joined the army 'cause he had no place to go
There ain't nobody hirin'
'round here since all the jobs went
down to Mexico
Reckoned that he'd learn himself a trade maybe see the world
Move to the city someday and marry a black haired girl
Somebody somewhere had another plan
Now he's got a rifle in his hand
Rollin' into Baghdad wonderin' how he got this far
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war

Bobby had an eagle and a flag tattooed on his arm
Red white and blue to the bone when he landed in Kandahar
Left behind a pretty young wife and a baby girl
A stack of overdue bills and went off to save the world
Been a year now and he's still there
Chasin' ghosts in the thin dry air
Meanwhile back at home the finance company took his car
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war

When will we ever learn
When will we ever see
We stand up and take our turn
And keep tellin' ourselves we're free

Ali was the second son of a second son
Grew up in Gaza throwing bottles and rocks when the tanks would come
Ain't nothin' else to do around here just a game children play
Somethin' 'bout livin' in fear all your life makes you hard that way

He answered when he got the call
Wrapped himself in death and praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war

- Steve Earle

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM

DougR, I listened to all of the 9-11 Commission hearings, and have read substantive summaries of the report. (Are you familiar with KERA-FM--I think you live in this same area--the hearings ran during the spring and summer). Who gets their hands on a document that big and reads it? I didn't, and I'll wager you didn't--you get your spin from the FOX news channel. And they have spun that report around and made nonsense of it. Didn't you listen to the conclusions of the commission? There are no substantive connections between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. They were able to show feelers only, but the report showed that Bin Laden thought Hussein was an abomination to the Muslim faith and world and didn't want to have anything to do with him.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:51 PM

Dougie,

As fir all the questions that folks are asking you: When in doubt, pick "C"...........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:43 PM

The nice ordinary folk Moslems are a minority and scared to death to speak out.

That small minority has not been to jihad school. The other millions of infidel hating nothing to lose Moslem world far out number those folks.

Yeah, Bush was in in 2001. Do you really think if Gore was in they wouldn't have attacked us? I think they would have attacked us again! I kind of like the fact that they haven't since and I really do believe they won't as long as we show them who's boss. Which we are.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Bert
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:18 PM

...They won't fuck with us as long as Bush is in there...

Hmmm - I thought Bush WAS in in 2001. And now due Bush being IN we've lost another 1000.

And Doug, Sure Saddam massacred a lot of his own people but that didn't stop Daddy Bush from being involved (as Vice Pres.) in selling him intelligence information.

If we were to spend a fraction of the money that this war has cost to educate people on the REALITY that most Moslems are nice ordinary folk just trying to make a living then perhaps the extremists wouldn't get so much support.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM

The BIG money's on Bush.

The SMART money's on Kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:56 PM

Let's get the Saudi's next!

Unbelievable whining here and no one is remembering the over 3000 Americans dead from these Arab asshole terrorists in NYC, Washington, and a field in Pennsylvania.

They are licking their chops if Kerry gets in. They won't fuck with us as long as Bush is in there and that is OK with me.

DougR, you do not stand alone. I believe that there is more than half a country who feels the way you do and last I heard it was about 11% or so more than half.