BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:42 PM

There is a God--one God--in my paradigm. The proof of His existence is manifest and requires no gymnastics; I believe because it is self-evident to me, like the self-evidence that freedom is good, that people are worthwhile and that love is more than another four-letter word. There are arguments against all the above, and I am not smart enough to deal with all the arguments. However, I fortunately don't HAVE to deal with all the arguments because I know what I hold to be true. In lotsa words I just agreed with BillD in the post just above this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:35 PM

I personally, though I am not religious, prefer to see someone believe 'just because' than to use an awkward reason like Pascal's wager. If one 'believes' based on self-interest, it is not much of a belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:08 PM

"If you live your life as if there is a God and there isn't you've lost nothing...If you live your life like there isn't as God and there is..what then??"

Pascal's wager ....interesting, but there are more than two possibilities, and many problems with the proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 02:59 PM

Yes, but it's only a word, don't forget that. It is other people's historical misuse of that word and how they interpreted it that has you concerned. What if I were to call God "Life" instead? Would you then object to my having a loyalty to Life, and drawing inspiration from it? I don't think so.

And I do give credit to the person. We all have free will, therefore we deserve credit when we use it wisely.

There clearly is no God similar to the one you are objecting to Cruiser! :-) I will definitely agree to that. God (Life) does not in any way lie behind people's desire to inflict death upon each other over differences of belief. It's fear that lies behind that.

And Life does not demand or expect worship from anyone. It just requires a certain amount of effective participation if you want to secure a good result.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

Little Hawk,

Why call your philosophy of fair play, humanity, goodwill, kindness, etc., God?

Credit or discredit for any act should be given to the person, not to some abstract untestable thought that gives false hope and reasons to kill others if you "believe" in "him" and that "he" is on your side.

Call your ideas (ideals) anything but "God", because that one word has evoked more suffering and misconceptions than any other word mankind has devised.

Coin a word or phrase for your fine philosophy instead of lumping it under "God". You have already coined one of my favorite words:   dipwallow!

Is there a God?   Dipwallow!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM

One can if one has sublime confidence in one's own view, I suppose... :-) Or if the idea of God is somehow offensive or threatening to one's concept of reality. Everyone instinctively defends what they think is true....atheists and spiritual believers alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM

Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups...believe that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped. Now, the fact that so many people believe something certainly doesn't make it true. But when so many people through the ages are so personally convinced that God exists, can one say with absolute confidence that they are all mistaken?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:38 AM

George Bush's idea of God is as out of whack as Osama Bin Laden's idea of God. That is not a reflection on God in the least. It's a reflection on Bush and Osama.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM

Why live a lie?

George Bush lives his life "as if there is a God" and we've lost many lives in Iraq (much more than "nothing").

One can live a very moral life "like there isn't a God", because there isn't a God.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

If you live your life as if there is a God and there isn't you've lost nothing...If you live your life like there isn't as God and there is..what then?? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

frogprince you're wrong he was trying to type "Is there a bog"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

Late as usual-

I took the subway the other day. And older gentleman
was there with his grandson. The kid asked him why
he walked so slowly. "Everyones passing us, Grampaw,"
he said.
Grampaw looked over me witha long-suffering expression
and said "Old age is proof positive that there is a God-
and that she hates us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

And to think eveyone has been straining their minds on this thread all this time because Sir jOhn tried to type in "Is there a dog"...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

It is not I who must wake up, Foolestroupe! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:34 AM

So which Oriental Religion is it in which our world is just a dream until the Supreme Being wakes up?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:08 AM

I kinda got taken with the banquet/cook idea proposed by kendall early on in this thread. I got God in a Julia Child suit. Don't think I could go so far as to worship, but I sure could delight in a God like that.

If God exists and really is *G*O*D* it ain't Tinkerbell. God's reality does NOT depend on my belief. In fact, maybe, vice versa...

I am blessed to have 4 grandchildren. A few years back, once when I was telling some folks after a church service what was so great about that, our minister (at that time with NO grandchildren) chided me with the "fact" that God had no grandchildren -- all of us His sons and daughters, first generation only. My rejoinder was if there are no grandchildren in Heaven it wasn't. And I wouldn't go.

Shycat (thank you, dear) knows. Eternity has already started. Heaven is now. Whether you believe or not, you're there. Tune your harp, pull up a cloud and sing. God's asking for a chorus of "I Can't Stop Loving You"...    Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,sensible person
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:24 AM

no, there's no such thing as god.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Goddess
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:32 AM

i heard there was a place called Mudcat. i searched and searched. all i got was an error message. i don't believe it exists, its just a delusion.

but delusions can be fun!



The Mother of All Delusions...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:47 PM

Ah, yes. Worlds within worlds. Dreams within dreams. When having a dream, most people believe it is real until they wake up. That's exactly what waking life is like for most people too...only it's of considerably longer duration. When they wake up from it, then they realize it was just a dream after all. You can even die in a dream...but then you wake up and find out you're not dead. :-) I know, I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:39 PM

Perhaps it is. That is a thought worth contemplating, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

He is a sleepwalker lost in a dream of his own making.


Charming rhetoric, but this is true of all dreams, I suggest.

Perhaps this also true of God.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

There's an echo here. Fascinating.

If man did not exist, I think I would almost feel compelled to invent him, just to see what silly, dualistic religions and equally silly anti-religious philosophies he could dream up to keep his mind engaged and his ego pacified.

At any rate, I'd be tempted to...that's for sure. Man is very intriguing. He's most often like an egocentric fish that doesn't know there's a living ocean all around him and even within him at all times. "There is no ocean!" he declares proudly, swimming about in its eternal embrace, and he pats himself on the back for his cleverness and independent spirit in the face of a seemingly uncaring and insentient Universe. Almost deviod of any real meaning within, reacting merely to outer stimuli and chaotic inner mind-chatter, he looks outside himself and sees what he thinks is a meaningless world. He is thus seeing his own fragmentary consciousness reflected in the great living mirror of Life itself.

Life observes him with Love, but remains unseen to his eyes. He is a sleepwalker lost in a dream of his own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:31 PM

"If God did not exist, Man would have to invent Him"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:43 PM

On the seventh day man returned the favour...by coming up with his own very limited and all too human definition of "God". And so limited it was, that thinking people with a strong reliance on their own powers of reason and observation were driven to fits of laughter and disbelief...like me when I refused to return to Sunday school class at age 7.

Right, Wolfgang? I only went once. I could see that the fundamental Christian stuff was unlikely to the point of absurdity. I rejected religion for the same reasons you do.

And yet...I now believe in God, but I follow no religion that you have any name for. And what I believe in is totally obvious to me, but apparently opaque to you. What did Darwin and Einstein know that you do not, Wolfgang? What did they see behind the surface appearances of physical reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM

On the sixth day god created man
On the seventh day man returned the favour.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM

" Then one old greybeard of a god stood up and said 'I am the Lord, thy God...thou shalt have no other Gods before me!'...and all of the other Gods died laughing."
(I think that was the 'commandment' guest referred to)

....(Nietzsche...Also Sprache Zarasthustra)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:13 PM

Yeah, I love that one... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

"God is Dead"

Nietzsche



"Nietzsche is Dead"

God

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

"Man, on the other hand, is hardly indispensible to maintaining a smoothly running Universe." - God

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:55 PM

"If God did not exist, Man would have to invent Him"

Voltaire

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:53 PM

That's not a commandment, it's a statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM

"I am the Lord thy God is a good commandment--depending on who says it."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

yep, as my Daddy used to say, "it's the same, only different"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:02 PM

I understand your basic assumptions, Bill. But I see it exactly the other way around. One of us is probably right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

"What difference does it make to the one who had the experience?"

well, I for one would be interested in knowing whether I had been drugged, hypnotized, tricked, was a victim of my own wishful thinking,..or had REALLY seen a dragon. The point is not whether I had an 'experience'...if it was intense and clear, sure I did...but that does not explain causality.

" It's spiritual thought-energy condensed into recognizable waveforms".....ummmm, and this thought-energy was condensed from what?

"Thought did not arise spontaneously and mysteriously at some point out of inert matter.".....not exactly- it arose from 'ert' matter. And not 'mysteriously'-- when matter gets 'ert' enough, (like a human brain), thought IS what happens, and experience is continuity of thought stored in little repetitive bio-chemical patterns of great complexity.

Hey....I'm beginning to like this making broad statements that sound authoritative! I just have to avoid 2nd guessing myself.....or do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

Extraordinary experiences do not require extraordinary proof for the one who has them. If someone else wants extraordinary proof, that's his problem. :-) I don't frankly care whether or not he wants proof. What difference does it make to the one who had the experience?

We are not all required to believe in the same things in order that the World keep turning comfortably on its axis.

It's nice to have proof if you can get it...don't get me wrong. But there are some things that no one will ever be able to prove...or disprove...because they are not within the realm of matters that are measureable or detectable by the five physical senses. And it is precisely those things that lie beyond the five senses that one is seeking to work with when on a path of spiritual evolution...those things in addition to all the stuff that IS detectable and measureable by the five physical senses.

The physical world is a reflection of the spiritual world that lies unseen behind it. It's spiritual thought-energy condensed into recognizable waveforms (such as light, heat, radio waves, ultraviolet, sound, and so on) and recognizable objects. The order that exists in Spirit is reflected and reproduced in lower forms of manifestation...the physical worlds. So the physical worlds are allegorical constructions of the thoughts which emanate from Spirit in the first place.

All this goes totally beyond conventional religions, by the way, but conventional religions have tried to express it and deal with it as best they could, while often erring in creating gods that are like bigger more powerful humans, complete with all too human characterists like jealousy, anger, and so on.

Science is the highest form of disciplined observation and applied knowledge that has been accomplished within the framework of physical existence. Because science necessarily is confined within that framework, the science community has tended to be of the opinion that that framework is all that is. They are mistaken about that.

Thought did not arise spontaneously and mysteriously at some point out of inert matter. Thought created the physical worlds by making light...then slowing the light down enough to form physical realities that exist on a temporary and ever-changing basis in time. Spirit is timeless.

And no one will ever be able to "prove" it empirically through science, because empirical science is itself contained within the spectrum of the physical space/time realities and cannot get past them...except by a theoretical breaththrough in the mind of a great scientist. (and that has been happening here and there)

Mind is the arbiter of reality. Mind is the doer, the creator, the interpreter of all reality, and the original cause. Without Mind you would not even be able to disbelieve in what I am saying or have any opinion about it and you would have no science or personal identity. Mind has given you everything. God is Mind. You are a little fragment of Mind that imagines itself to be separated and alone, and reacts accordingly, but you are not alone.

However, as long as you think you are separated and alone then that is precisely what you will experience. So you're in charge of your reality. Totally. You live the reality you choose to inflict upon yourself...and if you like it, that's just fine. If you don't, then you have the means to set about changing it at any time. People on a consciously spiritual path are people who have decided to set about changing their reality...from the inside out.

People who don't believe in anything spiritual usually attempt to change their reality from the outside in. They have a different notion about where the Power in Life lies. They think it's found in outer circumstance. It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM

Heavens KNOW?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM

Is there a God? Heavens NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:11 AM

Mrrzy...so you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the healing I had was not of God??? Well can you?
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:55 AM

I had the opposite problem, Mrrzy.
My daughter (6 years then) told me once she knew how to prove that there was no god: Pray for someone you don't like to die and if he doesn't die then there is no god.

Then I, the atheist, on the one hand had to praise her for an in principle clever idea (for that's how ideas are tested in science) and on the other hand had to tell her that if there was a god he'd most surely not answer such prayers.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:04 PM

No gods, no demons.

As I told my kids when they were repeating the You can't prove there is no god they were hearing in school, I don't need to - I can prove that anything you think was done by a god, wasn't, and that's enough.

It is the extraordinary claims that require extraordinary proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM

Contrary to some proganda of a couple of thousand years ago, I am not a real estate agent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 05:03 AM

Morning jOhn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM

that is, prohibiting 'strong drink', not health....*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM

but is it a good idea to insert health advisories in everyone else's religion or lack therof?

In any case, health is not their primary concern, they interpret certain Bible verses as prohibiting it,

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM

(chuckle) Good conversation there between God and jOhn from Hull. Very nice! I think God makes an excellent companion for you, jOhn.

Two Bears - Very well put. I agree entirely. All religions are suitable for certain people. No religion is suitable for all people. Therefore, let people alone to enjoy the religion that suits them best (and hopefully they will let you alone as well :-).

I didn't know that Mormons had a health advisory in their faith against drinking caffeine drinks. This shows wisdom on their part. Good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM

kay.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:23 AM

oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:22 AM

I like all cakes. I pass no judgements. But am partial to a nice moist carrot cake with thick creamy topping.

Don't do hot cross buns. Too close to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

waht sort of cakes do you like then?