BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with

Subject: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 03:56 AM

The comic thread "Dubya caught tampering with votes" missed the point: According to the site mentioned in the thread, the Diebold electronic voting system that will be used in many states in November is EXTREMELY easy to tamper with. Read the information here: Black Box Voting

The site, by the way, is run by Bev Harris, an investigative reporter who's been following the electronic voting debacle for a few years. I don't have any way of vouching for her credibility, but it seems that the Attorney General of California and the Alameda County Board of Elections have joined in a whistleblower lawsuit she and a partner filed against Diebold, the manufacturer of the machines.

Here are a couple of salient points from the site:

"By entering a 2-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created. This set of votes can be changed, so that it no longer matches the correct votes. The voting system will then read the totals from the bogus vote set. It takes only seconds to change the votes, and to date not a single location in the U.S. has implemented security measures to fully mitigate the risks."


"As computer security expert Hugh Thompson demonstrated at the Aug. 18 California Secretary of State meeting, you simply open any text editor, like "Notepad," and type a six-line Visual Basic Script, and you own the election.

Some election officials claim that their GEMS central tabulator is not vulnerable to this back door, because they limit access to the GEMS tabulator room and they require a password to turn on the GEMS computer.

However, any county that uses modems to transfer votes may inadvertently be giving control of the entire central tabulator to anyone who gets at the computer through the modem phone lines (even if it is NOT attached to the Internet). This allows Diebold, or any individual, to manipulate votes at their leisure, from any personal computer anywhere in the world."


Check it out. The site also has Harris' book "Black Box Voting" available for free download.

No wonder Bush doesn't give a damn who wins the debates!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 04:07 AM

Mark,

Perhaps you should look at WHO has selected these machines. I think you will find a large number in Democratically controlled states, as well. BOTH sides like the idea of tuning the numbers to keep themselves in office, not just the Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:01 AM

Bruce, I agree with you completely. I never said these machines were only in Republican-controlled states. ANYONE with enough money, power, or knowledge can manipulate these machines and control the outcome of an election.

And I think you are precisely correct -- incumbents want to keep themselves in office, and will often stop at nothing to achieve that aim. In the old days, that meant doing what Lyndon Johnson did in 1948 in Jim Wells County, Texas: stuff a ballot box. My point is that with these highly flawed and vulnerable electronic voting methods, it's now possible to do that on an unprecedented scale, nationwide.

In fact, Bruce, it seems to me that conservatives like you and DougR should be among the ones MOST outraged by this, since it cuts to the heart of one of our most cherished American principles: that we live in a democratic society, and that every person's vote counts. When somebody with an agenda and a few hundred million dollars to spare can turn that principle into a joke, we're no better off than "voters" in the old U.S.S.R. Worse, in fact...at least they knew they were living in a dictatorship.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 05:18 AM

Here is the chapter in Harris' book that deals with Electronic vote tampering.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Oct 04 - 09:54 PM

I think you should ask another country to oversee your election.

d

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 06:43 AM

"Those who vote decide nothing.
Those who COUNT the votes decide everything."
(Joseph Stalin)

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 10:53 AM

Saddam Hussein got 100% of the popular vote in Iraq in their last election before his fall from leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 11:05 AM

So anyone can play at this game... "Nader voted President in poll landslide earthquake."

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM

Interesting point, McGrath.

KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:45 AM

In the State of Pennsylvania one substandard type of voting machine was just decertified because it was found wanting in several key requirements.

The report can be read here.

This is positive news.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:07 PM

Mark,

Your timing on this thread is very ... "timely." (sorry about that ... sorta). Bev Harris is well noticed here in Washington State. My most favorite radio talk show host, only one actually, is Dave Ross. He's had Bev Harris on his show many times over the last couple of years, or so. He's been doing this because, as you may know, our last Governor's election was horribly flawed and still stands a chance of being thrown out by the courts.

Dave Ross has been VERY interested in the push to go to electronic voting machines. But, and here's my delemma, I'm hearing that this Bev Harris herself is also possibly "flawed." No, I cannot offer anything to substantiate this statement, it's justa couple of impressions I'm feeling. One of them is that Dave Ross seems to have backed away from using her as a credible authority.

I simply don't know the facts here, and I'm the first one to admitt that. If anyone can get to the bottom of this issue, they deserve a red lollipop! CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: gnu
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:09 PM

We Canucks are in the process of contemplating a new kind of equipment for cleaning up our political scandals - rope... a lot of rope.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:34 PM

And trees, a lot of trees.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:22 PM

Seems to me that a simple solution would be to use another company or use a simple ballot like Arizona uses. All one has to do is complete an arrow pointing to the candidate of your choice with a #2 pencil. No problem. Most people (even Canadians :>)) should be able to grasp such a simple system as that.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 07:21 PM

That system is a good one, DougR up to a point. It's what is used here in Alabama, too. The problems with this system arise with the optical scanner machines that are used to count the votes after the ballots have been submitted. They are just as prone to tampering and no more secure or accurate than the touch screen machines. Possibly less so because nobody is really scrutinizing them to any real extent.

However, the one thing about them that is vastly superior to some other voting systems is the fact that the system you described does leave a paper trail, unlike many of the other systems. So if there did happen to be a question about the results (and if anyone was really paying attention and noticed the discrepancies, and didn't sweep them under the figurative carpet), it could, conceivably, be possible to do a valid hand recount to verify the results.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:13 PM

Hey, Doug, I am gonna pass that along--unless gnu beats me to it. We got lotsa paper and lotsa pencils. Pens don't work here because of the extreme cold--they freeze. But pencils? You are da man.

Hey gnu, this thing we been doing--ya know, sending our votes to Blind Drunk in Blind River and then having him pass it along to Little Hawk who then tells Shat who then tells Ottawa: I think we found the problem. PAPER BALLOTS!

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Well, PAPER BALLOTS is the solution. Not really sure what the problem is, other than the guy who passes our votes to Little Hawk is pissed all the time and still in jail. Little Hawk is busy with life, and Shatner is occupied with being a sex symbol and singer. Go figger. S'no wonder we keep getting politicians in Ottawa.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

Meant to say that politicians in Ottawa is worse than a lice infestation.

Speaking of which, did I ever tell you about the time I had a case of crabs? Well, . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:23 PM

Sometimes machines are not superior to simply completing an arrow with a #2 pencil. And Carol, you're right of course. There is no fail-proof system probably.

The preoccupation, though, of some folks who concentrate on the possible inaccuracy of voting methods interests me. It's as though they simply cannot accept that their POV is not the majority view when elections do not go their way. The machines must be the problem! So do away with the machines! But then those folks will generally find some other aspect of the voting apparatus that is not functioning properly. It is just incomprohensible to them that voting results are not what they think they should be so there must be a mechanical problem, or somebody must be tampering with the results.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

I think there is a certain amount of that type of thinking Doug. However, I think too that there was tampering. It would be in the best interest of ALL Americans if there was a real paper trail. I know computers can speed things up, just as electronic banking does. BUT, when electronic banking gets screwed up, it is one big screw up.

I like the idea of putting my X on a ballot then having people from each party there to tabulate the results. Makes me feel better. So why not do it that way? Ain't gonna hurt anything, and it's not like elections that are close won't be watched by people if the results aren't there presto. What's the hurry? Stop, and count the ballots, by hand.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM

brucie,

You need to realize that BOTH parties benefit from having a system that can be manipulated. I note that none of the talk here is about the potential of fraud by the liberals, although that has been shown to occur as well. I pointed out that the entire Marylans vote hinged on the overwhelming Democratic vote by only three or four counties- which are controlled by Democrats. But *those* votes HAVE to be correct, you know- regardless of any indications to the contrary.

I agree about a paper trail- but the local DEMOCRATIC political machine pushed through the (non-audited) voting machines as fast as they could....

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

Doug, the man who owns Diebold stated that it was his duty to get bush elected, then comes a mountain of evidence that the machines were tampered with, what are we supposed to think?

Thank God the machines are not allowed in Maine. Most of us are smart enough to vote via paper ballot. Maybe that's why bush lost here.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:49 AM

Turns out that it is a stiatistical near-impossibility that massive vote tampering did not occur. This
analysis is highly disturbing, and as-yet completely unrefuted.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:09 AM

You need to realize that BOTH parties benefit from having a system that can be manipulated.

This is why I am strongly against any system that doesn't have complete accountability from all parties.

I note that none of the talk here is about the potential of fraud by the liberals

Well then you note incorrectly. Read the thread again. My last post does not specify either Republicans or Democrats. I'm starting to get a little pissed of with this kind of passive agressive dishonesty on your part, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:46 AM

Anyone who thinks it better to have no concrete and certain record of a process as central to democracy as voting is either a fool or a criminal, and wants secrets and unearned priveleges.

A

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM

bb, I agree that Liberals in Canada and Democrats in the US are just as likely to take advantage of machines. I do not think it is exclusively the domain or prerogative of Conservatives and Republicans.

IT Was a Russian (Stalin?) who said you didn't have to control the way people vote, you simply had to control the people who COUNT the votes. That is as true today as it was then. It may surprise you to learn that I am very 'right wing' on certain issues, and very left wing' on others. However, I believe in democracy as a concept and a process. I feel both are in perils (concept and process) with things like computer voting. It ain't a good thing, IMO.

If I voted on the following today it would be thus:

Abortion--NO
Capital punishment--NO
Legally-enforced 'equal pay for equal work'--YES
War in Iraq--NO
Globalization--NO
Military draft--YES
Women in combat roles--NO
Positive hiring--YES
Decent health care that is free--YES
Tax incentives for stay-at-home parents--YES

If you can figure out how I vote from the above, I am impressed. And if you can figure out my political 'bent' from the above then please let me know. I will choose the party to vote for now and not have to pay attention to their positions on the above issues before the next elections. Save me lotsa research and reading.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

That one's easy, brucie. Based just on this one...

Decent health care that is free--YES

...you will be categorized as a "Socialist" here in the US. Doesn't matter what-all else you believe or think.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

Nothing is free

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

Yes nothing is free, GUEST. However, compare the following. In Canada, a family pays about $900 per year for free health care. A single pays about $600 per year. That's as close to free as it gets. (Incidentally, people who cannot afford the fees are still given treatment, whether that requires hospitalization or not. As Carol so astutely (as usual for her--got real brains that gal) pointed out, that one thing alone would make me a Socialist.

However, many of the other things I would vote for make me Religious--which I'm not; Right wing which I'm not; Left wing which I'm not; Fascist which I'm not, etc.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:11 PM

1."Dubya caught tampering with votes"

2.No wonder Bush doesn't give a damn who wins the debates!

3.Doug, the man who owns Diebold stated that it was his duty to get bush elected, then comes a mountain of evidence that the machines were tampered with, what are we supposed to think?

Thank God the machines are not allowed in Maine. Most of us are smart enough to vote via paper ballot. Maybe that's why bush lost here.

*****************************************************************
ANd where do you see comments about liberals other than my own, or in response to mine?
*****************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

Hmmmmmm? This might explain why their was such a difference between the exit polls and the tabulations...

Ahhhhh, can anyone refresh my memory on why it was the Republican controlled House of Representative to killed off the legislation that would have created a paper trail???...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:21 PM

My 10 Apr 05 - 07:21 PM post, beardedbruce, doesn't specify either party or political pholosophy, therefore it should be construed to apply to all of them.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM

and my 11 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM was directly addressed to brucie.

I will state for the record that CarolC's posts here have been non-partisan and IMO reasonable in all aspects.


BUT I have seen ( the above noted) anti-conservative comments in this thread from others, and NONE that criticise liberals except for my own and some of the replies to them. Some people cannot have a conversation about any subject without inserting NVA anti-Bush comments.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM

If Schwarzenegger can rule in Sacramento, Shatner can rule in Ottawa. We should all bend over our voting machines to accomplish this noble task.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:02 PM

"We should all bend over our voting machines to accomplish this noble task."

aHEM!

(Always check yer six.)

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:14 PM

Where do you get thAT figure of $900.00 per year for health care? Are you factoring in the high taxes on everything you buy in Canada? That money has to come from somewhere. The government subsidizes the health care system, but it has to tax to raise those funds.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 08:27 PM

BB:

Maybe that is because the rigging and stealing of elections of late has been pretty dominantly in Republican favor. Back in the days of Boss Tweed, IIRC, the shoe was on the other foot, of course, so there really is no basic party division here.


A

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:53 AM

True, Kendall. But taxes also go for other things, too. The average Canadian pays about 23% income tax and 7% GST and some provinces have a sales tax of about 7%. The high cost items are health care, social assistance and education. However, people here don't go broke paying hospital bills. As in the USA, our tax free day--the date at which we have theoretically arrived at a paycheck that is not taxed is in late July, I think. So, yes we have tax. But, we also have universal health care. The USA should look at doing that, too, IMO. Just a friendly suggestion from north of the border--or south if yer in Alaska, or east if yer in Hawaii. Course, when ya spend a billion a day on a war in Iraq, I guess health care is difficult to fund.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:12 AM

PS That wasn't meant to sound as snide as it did.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

But it was a good point nevertheless. I'd much rather my tax dollars went toward ensuring universal health care for everyone in the US than toward killing people in other countries for oil.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/22/AR2005082201236.html


Of course, Maryland went solidly Democratic in both 2000 and 2004- in the 4 ( of 23) counties that count, so one has to wonder what the real votes might have been with a paper ballot...

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: curmudgeon
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:38 PM

C'mon Bruce. Your article ointed out that there are 32 states taht are using electronic voting machines. Of these, 25 require a paper trail, but Maryland is one of seven (bad cess to the lot) that does not do so. What are the other six, Ohio, Florida, etc?

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:41 PM

No idea, nor do I know how they voted. I am just annoyed that it is presumed that only the Republicans have cooked the books. But I guess the ubermench do not need to be concerned about anything like that...

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:59 PM

Oh yeah, back in the olden days when the Dems were in power, they sho nuff cooked the books... Was it right to do so? Ahhhh, probably not...

Now the Repubs are in power it is apparent that they have themseleves a nice little ball game going that makes the Dems look more like Boy Scouts...

Between the stuff that Tom Delay pulled in Texas on redristrictin' and then the paperless votin'??? Genious, that's all I have to say! I predict that the Dems have been so badly beaten at the cooked books that the Dems will never agin be a majority party... Ahhh, not that they deserve to be one mind you, but the Repubs have gotten this democracy so far off tarck and rigged that the game is virtually over..

I mean, lets looks at the recent presidential election... Fir the first time since exit polls were used the exit polls and the final, paperless, tabulations were way apart???

See what I mean... Nice when there's nuthin to recount and when the folks who are supposed to be doing the countin' have publicly sated that they were going to deliver the election to Bush???

And they did just that...

Yeah, if you Bush-heads wanta go get a big lump in yer throats about just how wonderful democracy is just keep this in mind: we ain't got it even half right if we can't even pull off an honest election so until we show that we can, firget sendin' out kids off to kill or be killed to impliment a system as fatllly corrupt as the one that we have...

What a friggin' joke...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:51 PM

There's been election fraud as long as there have been elections.   The difference is one of scale. Back in "the good ol' days," elections were rigged at the precinct, city, and county level. Now they can so much more easily be rigged at the state and federal level!

Put another way, we still have the dead people and empty lots voting and dirty tricks being pulled to keep legitimate registered voters away from the polls, but on top of all that we now have votes being "counted" via proprietary software owned by partisan corporations and not open to public or non-partisan scrutiny.   And we have the major radio and TV media hiding their heads in the sand and gullibly (or culpably?) rubber-stamping the "results" as legitimate reflections of voter preferences!

Aaarrrrgggghhh!

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:39 AM

You're absolutely right, beardedbruce. The voting machines in Maryland (and everywhere else in the US) should leave a verifiable paper trail.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 09:36 AM

The primary season is coming up again--laughable as it is--and there are still ongoing discussions about electronic voting machines.
                Why do we need them? What was wrong with filling a ballot out with a pencil they way we've done if for 200 years?

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

At least I don't have to worry about it.

While my County Commmission and local Election Board are committed to using the latest in Diebold voting machines, they have reassured me that the elections will be honest because "we're going to write our own programs".

So if I can trust the unknown programmer, who's probably the 13 year old nephew of the brother-in-law of a current County Commissioner, we're absolutely assured of honest elections.

I feel so very safe.

John

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: GUEST,Bert on Kelly's machine.
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM

They should be banned. Anyone gat any ideas for a good bumper sticker?

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 11:20 AM

No problem at all Riginslinger - that is basically what we do in New Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: New voting machines easy to tamper with
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

It sounds to me like the rest of the country could help themselves by following New Mexico's lead.

             In Oregon we have mail-in voting. I have mixed feelings about that, but I think it is way ahead of electronic gizmos.