BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat

Subject: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:32 PM

Yes, he's back. A new tape on al Jazeera od Osama Bin Laden attacking Bush for reading "My Pet Goat" While the towers were attacked.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

Osama and Kerry have the same script writers.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:52 PM

Of course they do Martin. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps Osama was feeling pangs of jealosy over the goat. He may not have understood English well enough to realize Georgie Boy was only *reading* about a goat.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Peace
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:35 PM

That had better NOT be Esmeralda.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:38 PM

Only until Bush is out of office, Martin. :-) Then Osama and John Kerry will have opposite script writers. That's how the game works. You have to have 2 sides engaged in ceaseless conflict to keep it going.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: pdq
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 06:48 PM

They may have the same script writer, but there is a difference. When Osama speaks, people listen!

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 07:36 PM

Interesting to hear Osama imply that Islam feels threatened by Western expansion.

Maybe a straw left to grasp for us all before its to late?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

It's not only Islam that feels threatened by Western (American!) expansion.

Hence the need for the FTA (F*** The Aussies) campaign...

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 09:45 PM

Osama said they thought they had only about 20 minutes to put their plan on Sept. 11 into effect, but it ended up with much more than they expected. He attributes this to the fact that Dubya sat there and kept reading so he wouldn't startle the children. He has a point. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 11:00 PM

Most of the punditocracy commentariat are saying that this development helps Bush in the election. JtS and I were talking about it this evening after watching Keith Oberman's show. He showed several segments of Bin Laden's tape (much more than we saw on any other show), and he had a couple of analysts answer questions he had about what Bin Laden was saying.

One of the analysts says she feels pretty confident that Bin Laden actually prepared the tape for showing on or near the aniversary of 9/11. She said she couldn't understand why its release on Al Jazeera would have been held up, if it was because it took a long time for the tape to get there, or if Al Jazeera didn't show it as soon as they got it.

That got us both to thinking. JtS thinks the government of Qatar is probably pretty friendly with the Bush folks in the same way that the government of Saudi Arabia is friendly with the Bush folks. Al Jazeera is based in Qatar. We both feel that it would not be surprising (to us) if the government of Qatar earned itself some brownie points with the Bush administration by making sure that the tape didn't appear on Al Jazeera until the best possible time for influencing the election in Bush's favor.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:38 AM

I'd say that just about sums it up CarolC.

In fact, I think it is the October surprise.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 12:48 AM

Here is the translation of Osama's remarks, provided by CNN. It's interesting in a number of ways:

You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.

And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.

Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.

We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.

And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.

And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.

And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

The resemblance started when [former President George H.W.] Bush, the father, visited the area, when some of our own were impressed by America and were hoping that the visits would affect and influence our countries.

Then, what happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

We agreed with the leader of the group, Mohammed Atta, to perform all attacks within 20 minutes before [President George W.] Bush and his administration were aware of what was going on. And we never knew that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would leave 50,000 of his people in the two towers to face those events by themselves when they were in the most urgent need of their leader.

He was more interested in listening to the child's story about the goat rather than worry about what was happening to the towers. So, we had three times the time necessary to accomplish the events.

Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential nominee John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.


#1. He responds to the ludicrous and repetitive nonsense from the Bush administration that the terrorists "hate freedom", a ridiculous assertion. ALL people love their own idea of what freedom is to them, and they fight to protect it. The Islamic fighters are, at their own level of understanding, defending their freedom to be who they are and run their own societies in their own fashion. It is simply laughable to assert that they are fighting the USA because they "hate freedom", but the American public appears to be just dumb enough to believe something like that (some of them, anyway). EVERYBODY loves freedom...their chosen expression of it. But a tyrant's version of freedom is: "I and my rich friends are free to do as we wish. Everybody else better do as we say...or else."

That is the freedom which the Bush administration offers Islamic people, and anyone else who gets in their way. The freedom to surrender unconditionally and follow orders...or die. That's not my definition of "freedom" and it's not most people's definition of freedom.

#2 He points out that the 911 attack and previous attacks were retaliation for attacks made on Lebanon and on the Palestinians, as well as for the presence of foreign military forces on the soil of Islamic people (in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere). Therefore, in Bin Laden's terms, he did not start the conflict...he was responding to attacks on his people. Is that so hard to understand? Is it not possible to imagine how he could see it that way? In his terms the terrorism was begun by the USA and Israel, and he responded to it.

#3 I find his comparison between the autocratic monarchies of the Middle East and the US government fascinating. He sees them as equally and similarly corrupt, and I believe he is basically correct in that assumption. In the USA you have an electable monarchy that endures for 4 to 8 years, and then is replaced by another. It does not represent the people, and it is a collusion between huge financial organizations and the military. In the Middle East you have hereditary monarchies or other forms of dictatorship which do essentially the same sort of things, and pretend to embody the ideals of religion (as Bush does) while dealing in gigantic payoffs and amassing power at the expense of the public.

Bin Laden obviously considers the Bush family to be quite comparable in their intentions to the Saudi royal family, and I'd say that he is correct in drawing such a parallel.

#4 He appears genuinely puzzled that the American people don't understand what's going on. I shouldn't wonder that he is puzzled. He'd have to have grown up in the USA to understand it fully, I suppose.

#5 Both Bin Laden and the leaders of the USA and Israel have launched massive terrorist attacks on civilian populations (and so have the Palestinians, of course, in a smaller and less organized way). All these participants appear to be labouring under the same illusion that it's only terrorism when the OTHER guy does it. This is self-deluding thinking, and it's sad.

It seems to me that the above translation I quoted is probably not the whole transcript. Bin Laden seems to imply much more than what he is actually saying in those few words.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: GUEST,J
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:49 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: GUEST,Johnjohn
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:52 AM

Thank you Osama. Now more people will be voting for Bush and Kerry will be defeated.
JJ

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:14 AM

"Now more people will be voting for Bush and Kerry will be defeated."

I think that would probably have been the idea of putting the tape out at this time. Whosever idea that was.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Alba
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:27 AM

I wouldn't go as far as to Thank the Bastard that attacked the World Trade Centre...that just shows you how low some Bush Supportes will go... to say even Bin Laden helps him!!!! but the Tape has reminded me that Bin Laden enjoys his Freedom while People live in Fear of the "next attack" due to the fact that Bush and his Administration let him wander off...literally.... because they wanted Iraq's Oil more than bringing a Murderer to Justice.
Even if I was undecided this Tape would point me in the right direction now...to get this Country out of the Grip of an impotent Administration.
Roll on Tuesday....Vote for Change....Action not detraction.....
Wonder how long this Hype has been waiting for an airing....Got the subject off the missing weapons though eh...
Disgusted
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Tansy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 01:50 PM

in the wake of all the questions about the missing explosives and the silly explanations of:


no, it's not missing, saddam took it.......then

No, it's not mssing, we blew it all up...... then..


oh..there's a video tape proving the stuff was still under seal even AFTER we blew stuff up and AFTER that satellite photo we trotted out... then:

Osama's tape get's aired.

COincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 05:34 AM

Whatever happens there'll be some fools in the USA and beyond that see the incident as part of a big conspiracy. Apart from that silly notion, the tape brings unsurprising bad news and slightly more surprising good news for the USA.

The bad news though not really new is that Bin Laden still plans further attacks. The good news is that at this time he is not able to do what he wishes. Would he be able he would not talk about it at this moment but he would do it and talk about it at some time later. He would not hesitate the slightest moment to deal a strike and this time of the election cycle would be the best opportunity.

That he deals out propaganda instead of striking is a sign of temporary weakness. He does the best he can at this moment, show himself alive and kicking in defiance of his hunters. The message is both for Muslim fundamentalists and for the West. To the fundamentalists he says the fight goes on and to the West he tries to show strength and intimidation.

He does not care the tiniest bit who wins the elections (if he would he could have made the message easily more damaging to one of the candidates) for he knows that neither Kerry nor Bush will either give in to the demands or slow down the hunt considerably. He presents himself as a statesman instead of a terrorist for to be counted. People who take him serious instead of treating him as a criminal play his game. His dreams are one time to be a Mandela or at least an Arafat of the Muslim world.

His greatest pleasure right now is how he dominates the political discussion in the USA and beyond. That he is perceived as being able perhaps to influence elections pleases him as much as if he really could influence elections.

When the USA gets a bit saner again than in these times they should treat him as a criminal and give his demands much less publicity. Giving him main news publicity adds to his influence in the Muslim and Arab world even more than the stupid Iraq policy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 11:38 AM

Wolfgang, you say, "The good news is that at this time he is not able to do what he wishes."

How do you know this? Perhaps he does not wish to attack at this time due to the election or maybe this message serves its pupose or maybe...

I don't think any of us know the purpose of the message except to, once again, strike terror into the heart of America.

To assume that he is unable to strike at this time is an assumption. None of the security measures that have been put into play since 911 would stop a determined terrorist. You give the Bush admin. too much credit.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 12:16 PM

If the tape was 18 minutes long, why did we see only a few minutes?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:03 PM

Some fools, eh, Wolfgang? The history of your own country shows us what can happen when people (fools) choose to ignore or disregard everything that can be (rather glibly, I might add) labeled "conspiracy". In fact, I bet the government of the day used just such a smear tactics on the citizens of Germany in order to get them to not notice or believe what was quite clearly happening right before their eyes. I bet there were a lot of people who felt like fools in your country right after WWII.

Don't try to persuade us to make the same mistakes your fellow countrymen made, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

"If the tape was 18 minutes long, why did we see only a few minutes?"

According to CNN and Andrew Card today. The US government pressured the Government of Qatar to partially surpress the tape.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM

Thats right! If the censors can take Osama's words out of context, they can control the message that gets through to the public. Lets see the whole tape and then decide for ourselves the purpose of the taped message.

Wolfgang - "...in these times they should treat him as a criminal and give his demands much less publicity. Giving him main news publicity adds to his influence in the Muslim and Arab world..."

It also gives him the power to influence the election - especially when his message has been heavily edited!

Wolfgang - "His dreams are one time to be a Mandela or at least an Arafat of the Muslim world."

How do you know what Osama's dreams might be?

Until now, I thought you were quite intelligent. Get a grip. Osama's so-called messages are controlled by the White House.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:05 PM

Apparently,US security services are still examining large sections of the tape ,before making them public.

Makes you wonder why they rushed out a small part. Election purposes perhaps?

The interesting thing to me, in the parts we have seen, is that Osama seems to be saying that if Western policy in the Middle East changes,the IFs wont attack western targets and peace will ensue.

It seems to me that this statement provides the first ray of hope in the region for some time, and the West should seriously consider negotiations ,encompassing all the warring parties,including Israel and Palistine.

The problem is that given the Wests need to ensure oil supplies, at a price they can afford to pay, peace may be the last thing they want...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:21 PM

As I said, some fools.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM

They're only fools if they're wrong, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:47 PM

It looks to me like we only got to hear a few excerpts of Osama's 18 minute speech. Interesting, isn't it? It certainly makes one wonder what else he said and just how embarrassing it might have been to certain powerful people in this World. What little they did quote makes a whole lot more sense than what I generally hear coming out of the mouths of either Bush or Kerry, who can only huff and puff about how they are going to "destroy the evil ones" faster and better than the other guy can.

I can tell you exactly what I think Osama's dreams are, Wolfgang. I think he dreams of Arabic and Palestinian peoples being sovereign in their own lands, free to live in their own fashion without interference from outside, and in charge of their own destiny...and free from the constant fear of overwhelming attack and domination by Israel and the USA.

Those are completely legitimate dreams, just as the dreams of Israelis to live in peace and security within their own borders are completely legitimate dreams. There is no reason why both parties cannot realize those dreams and coexist in peace.

Until all participants in this over 50-year quarrel are truly treated as EQUALS, without prejudice, without notions of innate racial-cultural-religious-moral superiority, without pandering to he who has the most high tech weapons delivery systems and the most money...then no one will have security. That's why he says that the security of Americans is in their own hands. They are certainly not going to get security delivered to them by the Democrats or Republicans. They're just going to get more war and more fearmongering from those 2 parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:06 PM

As long as Bush is in office the connections will be made and the dots will be connected. Qatar is as much an ally as Saudi is. Al Jazeera is owned by Qatar.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Tansy
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:12 PM

If you read the transcript, it's pretty clear that this tape was intended to air as close as possible to the anniversary of 9/11 - NOT in time to influence the elections. The fact that it has obviously been held up until just on the eve of the elction is NOT a conspiracy theory NOR is it paranoid..it's simply very likely. Osama's prvious missives have aired much closer to the dates that they were made..why the big delay now?

People are starting to ask too many questions about the obvious anarchy in Iraq so let's scare the bejeezus out of them by holding up Bogey Man number one: Osama Bin Laden.

Makes sense to me. I don't think it's a huge conspiracy, just shrewd campaigning.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:03 AM

The full text of the tape is available on the web, so the curious can test their theories about what was left out.

I use the term 'conspiracy theory' in a much more narrow sense than most posters here do: How I use it

Carol, neither you nor any other poster in this thread was meant when I first posted here. Hitler by the way and his party were very open with their plans. Not every evil development involves a conspiracy, even less so a conspiracy theory.

Dianavan, my statements are my evaluation of what I know which is no more than the average poster here. Same as for example Little Hawk when he posts I can tell you exactly what I think Osama's dreams are....

I had read wild conspiracy theories about the tape on the web before posting that's why I started my personal view with the words about some fools in the USA and beyond.

But after these words, Osama's so-called messages are controlled by the White House, I would tend to include you, Dianavan.

Those who think that this fight could be settled easily by giving in on some minor points are in a dangerous error in my view. Some of the fundamentalist Muslims would demand more and more.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:08 AM

From the very first, he was completely open about all of his plans, Wolfgang? There was no gradual getting the people used to his ideas a little bit at a time so they would be more likely to be accepted? My understanding was that he gradually unfolded his plans but that at first, while still building his power base, he was much less extreme in what he told the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:25 AM

Someone edited the tape, Wolfgang. Who do you think it was?

We disagree about Osama. I think he is just a hired gun. I really don't think he's a devout Muslim. He is a warrior/hero to many in the Muslim world but who else do they have? Yassir is getting kinda old, you know.

Why do you think it is the Muslims who are demanding more and more? I thought it was the Americans who wanted more and more. What do you think the Muslims want more of, anyway? More control of their own resources perhaps?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

Why do you think it is the Muslims who are demanding more and more?

THE Muslims? That neither my language nor my thinking. "Some of the fundamentalist Muslims" was what I had written and meant.

Why? Because of what I read from some of them. They are in a small minority still but their plans do not at all agree with my ideas of freedom and how I like to live. It may be very different in America. But we don't have the rabid Christian fundamentalists. Christians over here keep a low profile in matters outsied of religion. The threat to our way of living comes from Muslim fundamentalist ideas who are not contented with themselves living a certain way but feel chosen from god to impose their way upon others.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Osama gets Bush's (pet) Goat
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

There really isn't much difference between the our non-Muslim religious extremists here in the US and the Muslim extremists of the world, Wolfgang. The main difference right now is that our non-Muslim religious extremists have their collective fingers on the nuclear trigger, and the Muslim extremists do not.