BS: It's over. Bush wins!

Subject: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:36 AM

Kerry has just conceded defeat.

America has spoken.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:50 AM

Yup, so he has.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 11:57 AM

You are right. I mean, correct.   America has spoken. Now it is up to us to continue a dialogue.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

Nothing wrong with dialogues.

Nothing wrong with trying to pull together, either.

Some dialogues will continue to harm the country and promote the on-going division in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:02 PM

So you agree Martin that you also have a metal cock

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

Bush wins.

Everyone outside America loses.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:04 PM

Not healthy dialogues. This country is divided. I think some of the issues are not going to be easy to pull together on, such as our stance on the war, but we can't afford not to try.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:09 PM

I've just sewed my black armband.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:12 PM

Ellenpoly, why don't you do something positive instead to try to help pull America together and make it a better place instead of wearing a black armband?

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:13 PM

or replacing your cock with a spoon

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:17 PM

Martin Gibson, I am doing something positive. I am showing the country I reside in at this moment, that not everyone feels this result is a cause for celebration. I also did something positive by voting against a very dangerous man at the head of an even dangerous administration.

I will also continue dialogues as they present themselves because that is the only way things change.

And they will change.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

Yes, obviously they will change in 4 years. Very profound statement.

I'm hoping a much better Democrat will be there to vote for, as I am not a repubican but a true independent.

I am hoping for Hilary.

Guest, LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

Not a divided country, as much as a divided Democratic party. We'll now see the Republicrat bloodletting begin in earnest.

The progressive ranks will be VERY angry, and in no mood to settle in for a 4 year winter's nap...

Maybe if Kerry had bothered to show up for the Million Worker March instead of dissing the left and progressive ranks in his party...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:30 PM

Whatever...

Now, what are the chances of Bush seeing his 4 years term out?

Be ready to welcome Cheney as President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:36 PM

Let's be honest. When has the country ever NOT been divided, for one reason or another? No one elected official has the power to un-divide a nation of such diverse peoples. If we want to work together to make the country better, then that's up to us, not whoever's President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,What you can do
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/softwares.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:43 PM

If Bush is the voice of American, I think it's got a severe speech impediment...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

I'm for pulling together, but the Bush administration is not; this is one of my main gripes with them. Perhaps THE main gripe.

President Bush: "I do not need to explain why I say things. — That's the interesting thing about being the President. — Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

My way or the highway. This is not the voice of a "uniter."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:14 PM

Clint - pulling together is up to the people, not the President.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:26 PM

Kim-"Together" means " In association with or in relationship to one another," according to my dictionary.

Teamwork means we all pull together; it doesn't mean George cracks the whip and the team pulls the wagon. George may be the team captain, but the captain is part of the team too.

What some Republican called "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" does not mean thoughtless obedience.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:30 PM

IMO, the people aren't in any mood to pull together, because they just plain can't do it. The cultural divide is very real. While I believe this election will end up being the high water mark for the Republican party and it's grip on governance, unless the progressive left starts fighting and pushing back at the Republican right--which it hasn't done up to this point--I might even be wrong about that.

Look. The evangelical Christians might be 25% of the electorate in Ohio, but they are in a distinct minority. If it were not for 9/11, the "war on terror", the Iraq war, and the fear mongering about cultural issues, there is no way the Christian right, even in the south, would have been much of a factor this year.

The number of religious Americans are rapidly declining, not increasing. The cultural issues the Republicans used to drive a wedge between the baby boomers and their aging parents, don't resonate with the upcoming generation AT ALL. The anti-gay movement will be reversed in time, because the voters coming of age right now find the whole anti-gay thing to be abhorrent.

The anger among youth at their dispossession by both parties is definitely palpable on the street. They have no faith in either political party. Same is true of moderates and progressives from both parties (what few there are left in the Republican ranks that haven't been successfully driven out in the Rove pogroms that is).

The number of registered independent voters grows with each election, whether they swingers between the parties, or actually registered as indies. In this election in particular, the numbers already show that more and more moderates of both parties, young people, and independents either swung to Kerry in the last couple weeks, or they didn't vote in this election at all.

The Democratic Leadership Council certainly has no mandate, that's fer sure! Be prepared for those heads to start rolling...as soon as the party bosses wake up and smell the coffee.

There is also an uprising building in the labor movement right now, that has been gaining steam since the Clinton sell out years. The oil wars are ready to explode...the anti-globalist youth movement is ready to hit the streets, and will likely make Seattle look like a cake walk.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:45 PM

Bush wins. The world loses. This should be a day of mourning. Bush has done every single thing wrong as president. I can't imagine what made anyone vote for him. He is a fool, and he is dangerous. Don't blame Kerry. He did everything right but it wasn't enough. The majority of the voters were wrong. The election is over, but we have to keep fighting for what is right any way we can. Forget about being "united." Once the country was divided about slavery. Good thing the abolitionists didn't give up in favor of national "unity." Or the women suffragists. Or the civil rights movement. The plus side is, Bush is so bad that the opposition has been mobilized.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:48 PM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:00 PM

I agree with everything you said Guest 1:45, up to this statement of yours: "The plus side is, Bush is so bad that the opposition has been mobilized."

I disagree very strongly with that statement. The Democratic party and the Kerry campaign very effectively marginalized the true progressive opposition movement to Bush/Cheney this year. They very effectively took all the wind out of the sails of the international peace movement. They demonized anyone involved in the progressive left movements in the US who refused to endorse Kerry, though there weren't very many of them even. The acquiesence and capitulation strategy among the progressive left won the day among all but a small, handful of leftists, most of whom didn't hold out just with Nader, but tried to hold out as Greens, though most were just utterly demoralized, so put their heads down, kept working, and withheld support from the Democratic party by not organizing for them and not voting at all.

There is a very small core vanguard movement on the progressive left that held out and didn't acquiesce and capitulate to the Democratic party lesser of two evils strategy, but the Democratic party establishment is in no mood to hear from them. Pulling the progressives back to their deep grass roots isn't going to be easy, or even necessarily quick. We are going to have to fight the Democratic party even harder than we are going to have to fight the Republicans.

The one bright, shining moment this morning for me was the realization that the American progressive left that DID stand strong and hold out against the Republicans AND Republicrats, pretty much have a majority backing among progressives around the world.

But we have quite the uphill battle in the US, because first we have to fight our way out of the state of capitulation funk the US progressive left has been in since Dean lost the primaries. Dean wasn't the best progressive leftist on the block, for sure. But he at least paid lip service to Wellstone's Democratic wing of the Democratic party line, and was clearly anti-war.

What we have now is just a horrific mess, and wounded, battle hardened old guard Democrats in their death thoes, who will go to any lengths to try and keep the progressive left from rising up and taking over the party now. It's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM

When Reagan was elected a good American friend said:

"George the Third was right, we Americans are not fit to govern ourselves".

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:19 PM

What do you think Dave, should we liberate them, then?
In fairness to the Americans, your friend must have had a chip on his shoulder.
I don't like that Bush got elected. 48+% of Americans don't like it either. But elected he was - and they (and we) have to live with this and work with this fact.

What would really worry me is if Bush doesn't make it to the end of the term. I worry that those who used him as a puppet-front will have little use for him in the future, and they will contrive a way to edge himm out, for Cheney to take over - whether for reasons of health, or using even more sinister methods.

But - whatever. The citizens of the USA have voted, in great numbers indeed, and they have chosen. May I be wrong and may they have chosen right. But I would never say that they are not fit to govern themselves. I would never say that of any nation.

Not even Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:22 PM

Ah well GUEST,perhaps we should feel sorry for them.
Date raped AGAIN .....At their age.
But we know they love it, dont we?
They have this need to feel worthless, dirty, abused.....Thats why they come back ,again and again, no matter how we try to advise and protect them
But their really "old slappers" under the skin and need their shot of ritual humiliation.

It could all have been so different if it hadn't been that horrible, horrible Bush, but the bold Sir kerry.
The future would have been one endless honey moon.

But how could we have suffered their girlish Mudcat babble ,of clean slates, new beginnings,brave new future ...

Perhaps its all for the best....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:30 PM

I agree--every nation is capable of self government, including Iraq. There is a much larger percentage than 48% who do not share the values of the current administration and US government, or the majority of it's voting citizens: the non-voters. Those who share progressive values are actually in the majority in the US population as a whole, when you look at the marketing demographics, instead of the political demographics.

It is only in the political demographics, ie the political class, that is truly polarized and fighting for control of the government via the culture wars.

Progressive cultural values have already long since won in the marketplace of ideas and of idealism. The dead horse being flogged by the Republican right and Republicrat right, is the political right fighting for the scraps, with the support of the global capitalist oligarchy.

We're out here in the political wilderness folks, waiting for the Republicans and Republicrats to finish their wars and die off. Our progressive children will inherit this nation, and they simply won't put up with our culture wars bullshit once they take over.

Cultural conservatism is on it's way out in the US as it is around the globe. The cultural conservatives, however, have all the capital and all the guns. So they are winning for now. But certainly not forever. Not even for a very long time.

We are going to start paying the piper in the US very soon for global warming, for the worst health care system in the so-called developed world, for dissing the ascendant classes of cultural progressives (or cultural creatives if you follow the marketing gurus), single women, people of color, and the working class and poor people who are a whole lot smarter, it seems to me right now anyway, than all those Republicrats and their PhDs fighting to defend their comfy, cushy, status quo lifestyles and their children's right to inherit wealth instead of work for it, and pull up the economic ladder behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

"There is a much larger percentage than 48% who do not share the values of the current administration and US government"

So you are saying that some of the 51% that voted for Bush do not share his values?   Talk about a wasted vote! Who needs Nader if they area going to throw their vote away on a candidate they don't support?

Sorry, but non-voters really do not count in this arguement. They had their opportunity to create a change and they didn't get out and vote.

"Those who share progressive values are actually in the majority in the US population as a whole"
If you used the term "liberal" as opposed to "progressive", I might agree with you. The problem is you have not shared where you get your information from.   How do you back up such a claim? Is it a W.A.G.??

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:15 PM

well, I promised I would limit my commentes to "...so, now we shall see..."
but I will add, for the rest of the world which wonders about us,.....remember there were 55 million of us who DIDN'T vote that way.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

El Greko: I have no idea how good a musician you are, but one thing I will grant you, you have a marvelous imagination.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:22 PM

The best we can hope for now is that Bush doesn't spin his narrow popular vote victory into some sort of mandate to launch whatever insane scheme God or whoever he listens to will whisper in his ear.....

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

Hide under your bed, guest.

Gee, Bobert, Jack the Sailor, and Ron Davies have sure been nowhere to be found today.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:32 PM

Having just heard the Concession speech and the Bush acceptance speech all I can say is----intelligence and graciousness trumped by the usual stubborn belligerance.

THe Cheney intro was, frankly, frightening. No reaching out for unity--mere gloating with the usual Darth Vader look. W on the other hand gave the usual platitudes about the opposition and then proceeded to, basically, say it will be business as usual---and now with what he considers a mandate---that only he could consider it being.

Granted the Edwards intro to Kerry was a bit harsh--but, he is surely a cheerleaded. The Kerry speech was gracious, warmhearted and as always--Lincolnesque. He also spoke of unity and asked his supporters to for helping in creating this unity and not to feel their work was for nought.

Finally---I don't know how many here have read 1984. The decor of Reagan Hall in DC for the Bush speech was, to me frightening. The Huge "W"s around the hall in the particular font they were in was so reminiscent of that great book and the government it spoke of.

Well---at least they both ended with God Bless America. Trouble is that Bush really believes that he has private communication with that deity.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:56 PM

"Teamwork means we all pull together"

I believe that's what I said. I don't believe I said anything about anyone cracking a whip. I mean that WE have to be the instigators, the motivators, and stop relying on whoever's in charge to be the effector of change.

And Bill, people do have private communication with God. It's called prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM

Well said, Kim C as you so usually do!

I always read your sensible posts.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:51 PM

Right, prayer---usually one talks to Him/Her--or what have you---W is so sure he is getting private consults---well, so does Pat Robertson. Problem is each one believes that the deity is to talking to him---check Robertson's last interview re: the campaign.

Kerry,to myknowledge does not make such claims---but then again maybe he couldn't afford the "roaming" charges to have that type of private conversation.




Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:11 PM

We have a legally and fairly elected president. I can live with that.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:28 PM

For sure---and Amen to that. Too bad it was not so the first time around and the agenda is not changed now that he feels he has a "mandate"---though acting like he had one in term 1 also.

One wonderful thing though. This nation has survived many such contested and divided eras because of the foresight and intellect of the founders---who also disagreed but came up with compromises. Let us hope---and in this current evangalical furor---pray---that our duly elected leader (and his ventriloquist)can behave like these earlier paradigms of principle.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:29 PM

you all shut up and start planning the assisinations.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

"I do not need to explain why I say things. — That's the interesting thing about being the President. — Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation."

What kind of fucking idiot would say something like this about the country he's in charge of? If you ask me, hell, even if you don't, Bush is only a few steps away from being a tyrant!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:35 PM

"'Merica' has spoken...oh god help us!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:36 PM

Now---besides needing to learn how to spell---that is SICK. I would never invite you as a guest---you are a sick and scary kind of person.

As usual a discussion here has led to the usual claptrap from the intelligentsia of the intelligently challenged---read: Morons.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:37 PM

My missive was directed to GUEST---in case there is any misunderstanding.

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM

good, good Bill...

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

So does this mean we're going to get a better standard of BS on the Cat now?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

We can hope!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:49 PM

The thread was started by Martin - do you seriously think this conversation had any other direction to go?

You millions voted for Kerry and are really "bummed" that Kerry lost, are going to now sit on your fat lazy asses and accept the crap that Bush is going to sling at you for the next 4 years. You piss and moan, cry for yourself and point to the people worse off that you and yet you do NOTHING else to make a change.

It will be on your heads when what freedom you have right now is removed from you in the near future.

Maybe, the assassins should start with you idiots first.

And guess what – I sent this message through the spell checker just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From:
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM

Well, I did find it interesting, considering how the Bush campaign really pushed the "War on Terrorism" issue, how the states where a possible future terrorist attack would most likely take place voted overwhemingly Democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: It's over. Bush wins!
From: GUEST,2
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:24 PM

Guest, it is so obvious from reading your posts that you have done NOTHING in your miserable life to promote change. You huff and puff and make wild ass statements that have not one shred of common sense. Hot air. You are a social outcast that never could work with any "progressive" group that I know. Give it up, you don't stand a chance.