BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?

Subject: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:26 PM

Haven't seen that question asked yet. Thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:28 PM

While the turnout was huge, the youth vote did not come out in as large of numbers as expected.

Kerry focused too much on Iraq and not enough on the economy.

Kerry was slow in getting his message out.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

Because he didn't get enough votes.

Perhaps he didn't get enough votes because he appeared to change his position on too many things, rather than have any clear, solid position on any given issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

But from what I've been reading online this morning, the youth vote was the only constituency that he carried consistently. So I'm not sure you are right about that, Ron.

I've seen what I think is one very logical explanation over at the WSJ--that Kerry dredging up Vietnam in war time, was a VERY bad idea that blew up in his face.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:38 PM

He had a brilliant strategist who knew ho to get out the base of under-educated, logic-challenged voters:

"As people do better, they start voting like republicans - unless they have too much education and vote democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing"
Karl Rove
(George W. Bush's chief senior advisor and political strategist)

Nothing like calling your own constituents stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

Cheney told America exactly what to do

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/softwares.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

Good analysis here

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

... A UK Viewpoint ...

The 527 groups were new and some, at least, were very effective. Every politician claims to be against negative campaigning but almost be definition, that's all these "independant" groups can do. I think they are here to stay for some time and I expect every campaign to be more vicious than the one before for at least the next couple of elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:46 PM

No, it does no one any good to say that Kerry lost because the bad guys won. Kerry lost, and the Democrats lost control of governance, for a lot of reasons. Pretending like the Democrats haven't been decisively thrown out on their ass won't help the progressive cause in 2008.

The Dems are going to have to deal with the Democratic wing of the Democratic party AND the independent progressive left that gave them their votes...this time. I truly don't think the Democratic party can count on the progressive left within their own party, much less outside the dupoloy, on the independent progressive left, come 2008.

Nope. It's time to move hard left, folks. The battle lines, at least, are clearly drawn for us this morning. The PROGRESSIVE independent left WILL begin rebuilding itself today. If the Republicrats keep their cold shoulder up to the progressive left, they will become irrelevant within the next couple of election cycles.

The choices between progressive vs liberal vs conservative haven't been this stark in a long time. Change will come. The conservative old Republicrat warhorses like Mudcat's Anybody But Bushies are riding into the sunset this day, not the sunrise.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:46 PM

I heard a story on CBS that broke down various voting blocks. The youth block, while certainly strongly pro-Kerry, did not turn out in as large numbers as predicted based on the number of new registered voters.    While the overall turnout was high, the youth block did not turn out in the same proportion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:04 PM

The reason they didn't is their cynicism about the process and the two party system, pure and simple.

I think these are the two main factors the Republicrats will have to contend with now, from katlaughing's link above:

"Among Kerry's successes last night was an apparent breakthrough among young voters." But their numbers were not sufficient to make a difference.

And, Broder and Morin write: "A pronounced shift came among moderates. In this polarized political climate, their share of the electorate dropped from about 50 percent in 2000 to about 45 percent this year, but the margin for the Democratic nominee increased from eight percentage points then to about 15 points now. Political independents also moved to the Democrats, with Kerry winning a slight majority whereas Gore had lost by a similarly small margin, according to surveys."

The constituencies that the Republicrats need to win are out there for the taking, but the party MUST move left, and it's old guard MUST go. We need youth and the progressive left to retake this nation from the fascists. That is plain as day when you look at the electoral college map too. It's the culutral divide. The Republicrats have been chickenshits. No guts to stand by their grassroots idealism, their grassroots base, and argue THEIR moral values.

So the progressive left will leave the Republicrats eating their dust in the next four years. Anyone who thinks the progressive left has been vanquished in this election, when Kerry couldn't even get out the youth vote or mobilize the moderates and independents that leaned his way, much less his traditional base in the Latino and African American communities?

It may only have been tens of thousands at the Million Worker March last month, but there is a very strong progressive left movement of truly united rainbow coalition (not run by Jesse) of communities of color, union activists, the radical left of the progressive movements' activists, Jews, anti-globalists, and young people. It has a tremendously strong core, with a tremendous amount of confidence. They don't just play the electoral politics game--they go straight for the heart of the beast. Believe me, a whole lot of them will show up in DC on Inauguration Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST,cur'us spea'er & speller
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:08 PM

M'be coz there is noooo difference b'tween the twa o'em? Tha dif'rence is as wiiiiidddeee as a thin sheet o'paper. Tis my view.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:12 PM

That's right. A slim dime's worth of difference is what currently separates the Republicrats from the Republicans. But the global capitalist oligarchy never worried or fretted over this election for a second. They made a financial killing on the election business this year. Cleaned right up. Wall Street and the cultural fascists won big time.

The battle lines are drawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:35 PM

CNN television analysis asked if the Democrats had lost their church base. Rural, settled America especially seemed to go for Bush more on 'doing the right thing' than chasing the issues. Much of that might have been inevitable as people simply chose to stand behind the incumbant. It has to hurt a candidate running against someone in the white house with all the apparatus of government supporting him.

Further, Bush's campaign was very shrewd to move gay marriages into the mix. I think that increased the turnout of people interested in the status quo.

Still I have to say I'm dissapointed in the election and America. At least the winner also carried the popular vote. Sadly, I think this will legitimate a very bad president.

I hope the Democrats can get back on their feet as a party. I'm curious to see if they made any long term friends who will help them rock the senate & congress control.


Sigurd


Congratulations to the President. May his legacy not be our curse.

If you voted, congratulations to you too. Watch your votes and make them count.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:41 PM

Unless the Democratic party is willing to fight it out at the ballot box and on the street, as they did in the 1960s and early 1970s, all hope for the nation and the world is lost. The global capitalists will win it all.

And I think I hear those old refrains of "Which Side Are You On" in the background...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

I mean--wake UP Democratic left! This is what the freakin' Wall Street Journal is saying this morning:

Wall Street Journal: "Americans lined up to choose between George W. Bush and John Kerry -- and to flaunt their political divisions.

"White voters turned out to cast ballots for President Bush by double-digit margins. Hispanics backed Mr. Kerry by a similar margin, while blacks backed him by 10 to 1.

"Regular churchgoers were rock-solid behind the Republican incumbent. So were married voters with children and Americans who own guns. Those who care most about the threat of terrorism and issues related to moral values voted overwhelmingly to give the 43rd president a second term.

"But in a stark display of what separates the nation's political camps, voters who say they never attend church services sided just as strongly with the Democratic senator from Massachusetts. So did gay voters, single voters, union members and those most concerned about health care, jobs and Iraq."

But a clue Democrats! You lost because you abandoned not only your base, but your ideals!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:47 PM

People did not want Herman Munster for President.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:49 PM

I did!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Martin has a Munster fixation...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:07 PM

Didn't work out so well for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:24 PM

I do like Muenster cheese.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: mg
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:44 PM

Are we to gather from that editorial that African Americans and Hispanics are somehow not church goers? Or they aren't married and have children? Does not compute. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:45 PM

I presume that GUEST is the same GUEST who has been vociferously campaigning for Ralph Nader. Okay, now that the dust has started to settle, I find that we are in agreement. Not on voting for Nader rather than Kerry in an attempt to beat Bush, but in the failure of the Democratic Party to provide a genuine progressive alternative.

Once again, Harry S. Truman is proven right. He said, "When voters are given a choice between voting for a Republican, or a Democrat who acts like a Republican, they'll vote for the Republican every time." Kerry wasn't exactly acting like a Republican, but despite his intelligence and eloquence, he did fail to offer a clear and concisely articulated alternative to the Republicans. Once in office, he would have been quite different. He would have effected a reconciliation with allies whom Bush has alienated, and this would have gone a long way toward resolving the mess Bush created in the Middle East. He would have stopped the attacks on the social safety net and Social Security programs. He would not have invaded people's bedrooms to tell them what they can and cannot do. But he didn't convince the voters of that. It's not sufficient just to say "I have a plan." And then there is the very important matter of impending Supreme Court appointments. Now that Bush is back in, we'll just have to grit our teeth and wait and see how all of this plays out.

But it's not too early to start work on 2008. I see two possible courses. 1) go to work building up the Green Party into a real force rather than a small and essentially ineffectual minor party: or 2) follow the advice of Thom Hartmann:   get involved in the Democratic Party, knock heads and kick butt. Obviously, what they're doing now is not working. Remind them of what their values used to be and should still be, and give them a spine transplant.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:09 PM

From the UK, backing Kerry, it seemed like he harped on about the same issues, and then it didn't help his cause when Bin Laden sent the video. He couldn't tand up and say, "Yes, Osama has just said everything that I've been saying about Bush throughout this campaign..."

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST,Passerby
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:20 PM

Pretty simple really. As undesirable as Bush may be as a president, Kerry is worse yet. The Democrats had many worthwhile potential candidates. Kerry just wasn't one of them. Never did figure out why they couldn't see that ahead of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:22 PM

You know, I think the finger-pointing, Kerry did this wrong, Kerry did that wrong naysayers are full of it. Kerry received a huge, impressive number of votes by any measure...just not as many as George Bush. Bush mobilized weird coalitions of people afraid of gay unions and abortion: the Amish, the Born Again, the Mormon and the Orthodox Jew, for example.
Kerry's people did a superb job finding new voters, but Bush's people did a better one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:23 PM

well, even if we were bound to lose anyway, I think we should have had a clearer choice, like Dean, or even Kuscinich, to make the final vote count more representative. I don't doubt 'some' voted for Bush & Co. because they didn't see any particular reason not to. (many did, and we are now worried what the very conservative govt. will now foist upon us. we shall see....

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:31 PM

Good to see you coming around, Don. One thing I haven't changed my mind on, is attempting to wrest control of the Democratic party back from it's DLC Republicrat wing. They will, especially in light of the coming siege from the left, only become more entrenched in their positions and control of the party's purse-strings, for all the elections in the forseeable future.

Nope, it is time to start organizing a vanguard movement outside any political party, Green, Democrat or any. Putting pressure on from within will only take the progressive causes so far, because the Democrats don't have anything left to bargain with--the blew the entire wad this election year.

It's going to be years, possibly generations, organizing in the political wilderness to reverse the grip of the global capitalist empire. And no one should think this will come without a bloody, violent fight. Look at what is happening as a result of the US' imperial reachm right now in the Middle East, in Africa, in much of Asia, and Latin America.    Look at the state of nuclear proliferation. The state of global warming and catastophic weather changes.

Nope, we are never going to be able to wrest control of the US away from the global capitalist oligarchy by voting alone. That is just too naive. We will have to organize, organize, organize outside the system, take the battle for the soul of the US to the streets, knowing we at least have the backing of the progressive movements around the world. International coalition building between the US and the rest of the world on the progressive left has just become hugely important. That kind of organizing can never be done within the two party political system of the US. We have to wrest control of the country away from the political class, not join them AGAIN, in hand wringing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:37 PM

About 1/3 of a voter in this country thinks like you do, Guest based on Nader's .03%

I would suggest that you get a real job, find a nice person to marry, have kids, worship where and when you want, eat dinner in fine restuarants, pay your taxes, and enjoy your short little life.

Oh yes. Enjoy good music, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Aye Guest ...Brave words ,but youl have to be prepared to die for your principles.
They'll smear you with terrorism,anti American activities,and they wont hesitate to kill every one of you before their claws are prised from power....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

It's beyond me how a nation can elect someone who says vote for "A guy who you can trust" after taking America to war on completely false pretenses. Now we all get to see his jerk smile for the next 4 years as America alienates itself from the rest of the world while Bush's USA does whatever they please to continue their agenda. Lord - help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: mg
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

I think he does not have sound political instincts, in terms of campaigning, and that he was deliberately given bad advice in order to have him lose. And because he did not have sound poltiical instincts, or good advisors, he followed the bad advice. Somebody somewhere is gloating and it is not Karl Rove. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

And if he does not have sound political instincts he deserved to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:56 PM

Kerry lost because there are more conservative Americans than left-leaning ones. And this time they all came out to vote.

Ron: I don't believe Kerry got all of the youth vote anyway. There are a lot of young conservatives who voted for Bush.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:59 PM

The youth of today are not at all like the youth we were.

They might just be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Fishpicker
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:02 PM

"Kerry dredging up Vietnam in war time, was a VERY bad idea that blew up in his face."


BINGO!


                         FP

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:04 PM

Mind boggling, isn't Arnie? I thought the same thing about Nixon's re-election, AFTER Watergate hit the front pages and the shenanigans of the Committee to Re-elect was exposed, not to mention Martha Mitchell screaming into the phone to the media, just before the president's men wrested the receiver out of her fist, and got the sedative administered...

"Aye Guest ...Brave words ,but youl have to be prepared to die for your principles.
They'll smear you with terrorism,anti American activities,and they wont hesitate to kill every one of you before their claws are prised from power....Ake"

You know, that doesn't really intimidate me, because as a radical leftist, I've been living with those possibilities for years. Back in my young turk, front line warrior days, that was much more of a concern for me personally than it is now that I'm happy to let the new generation take that leadership role, and take it to the streets. I do worry about it for my kids, though, who have long been politically active too. Art and politics...they are the family biz.

Meantime, I'm contented being one of the farts hanging back in the movement offices (more often home offices these days, at least in my case), or calling the union offices, the lawyers' offices, and the alternative media outlets from the comfort of the car cell phone, while trying to chase down where the marchers have been redirected to in their cat and mouse games with the cops. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:09 PM

Grow up, guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:12 PM

DougR, I am looking for the report. I know that Kerry did not get ALL the youth vote, that would be just about impossible. Kerry did receive a larger percentage of the youth vote, and he did very well with women - as do most Democrats - just ask Bill Clinton!! :)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:15 PM

I believe that Bush winning the election is as much of a conspiracy as Watergate...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:19 PM

That's nice Chris nightbird.

Brilliant, actually.

Why don't you call the Associated Press and see if they will listen to you why you think so.?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:26 PM

wel, Martin, some people are better at campaigning and blowing smoke than they are at holding the office and doing the job.

"If you can fool at least 51% of the people part of the time....."

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:27 PM

"Good to see you coming around, Don."

Just to be clear on that point, GUEST. In case you missed it, I haven't "come around." That's where I've been all along.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

That smokestack Bush sure fooled a lot of people. All the sheep at Associated Press probably voted for him anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:33 PM

Any interest in whether the Guardian pissed off just enough Ohio voters to give the election to Bush? You see, those outside the US CAN influence our elections!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 04:50 PM

Actually, bird, Kerry fooled millions less.

Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

From the link Don Firth gave:

"They launched an aggressive takeover of Dwight Eisenhower's "moderate" Republican Party, opening up the "big tent" to invite in groups that had previously been considered on the fringe. Archconservative neo-Christians who argue the Bible should replace the Constitution even funded the startup of a corporation to manufacture computer-controlled voting machines, which are now installed across the nation. And Reverend Moon took over The Washington Times newspaper and UPI.

"Their efforts, as we see today, have borne fruit, as Kevin Phillips predicted they would in his prescient 1969 book "The Emerging Republican Majority," and as David Brock so well documents in his book "Blinded By The Right."

If that is what the 'moderate' Republicans did calculatedly in order to gain power, I think the Democrats using them as a guideline in order to do the same would be a very risky move. Since the Republicans allowed "into the tent" the archconservative, the fundamentalists, the religion-into-the-government with any means, the ones who think they are helping along "the end times", - with ruinous effect - who are the people the Democrats would have to invite into their tent? Once you lower your standards to gain the warm bodies in order your movement in order to draw political attention, where do you draw the line? There are a lot of scary people out there I would not want under the same umbrella I shelter under.

I'm ready to forget the Democratic party- actually I'm not even a member now, being registered non-partisan- and join a third party, fresh from the ground up, with a well-thought out platform that promotes the principles we hold dear. I am not willing to surrender "moral values" to the current Republican party or to our current government.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

Actually, Ebbie, it was the neo-conservatives and the fundamentalists who moved in and gradually took over the Republican tent. By the same token, progressives who currently feel themselves disenfrachized are the ones who could move into the Democratic Party tent and, essentially, take over the Dems the way the neo-cons and fundies took over the Republicans. For example, you might want to engage the huge number of liberal Christians, who, like the progressives, are not that well organized and don't really have a voice. Liberal Christians (who do not believe that "America is a Christian country" but a country in which religious freedom is supposed to be the rule) feel really put-upon at the idea that the shrill Bible-thumpers have taken over the title "Christian" as if they are the only ones who have a right to it.

There are lots of non-crackpot liberal and progessive folks out there who simply don't have a voice and don't know where to go, and have pretty much given up trying.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:16 PM

He lost partly because while he was camping, sailing and tearing around in his gas guzzling Urban assault vehicle, he was allowing the republicans to define him. By the time the debates came around, it was too late. Besides, he is not very handsome, and he is intelligent. That alone will kill him in the south.
Anyone know who started that crap about Kerry wanting to do away with the Bible?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Did Kerry Lose?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:02 PM

Kerry lost mainly because the American public is weaned on a diet of war propaganda from cradle to grave and is largely unaware of what their government actually does in the World. It invades, blackmails, terrorizes, conquers, and pillages. If they were aware of it there would be a second American revolution, because most Americans are basically good people.