BS: BNP Leader Arrested

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 07:05 PM

Don't they have great time, these Yanks? People wanting their butt hole and the blood in their heads giving them erections......I wouldn't mind a night out with them fellers.

they certainly know how to live

the question is would you see all that if you went over there , or is that a scene they keep to themselves. Or are they just boasting - perhaps its just one bluegrass club where all this goes off.

You can see why its never caught on over here. You'd be lucky if someone put his hand on your knee in the wild rover. very lucky - its never happened to me.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 11:08 PM

It ain't the hats that's pointy. It's the heads.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: LadyJean
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:55 PM

In 1997 some people from the Ku Klux Klan got an opportunity to speak from the steps of the city county building. They attracted an impressive crowd, who were separated from them by chain link fences, and just about every cop in town.
For two hours they abused various races, mostly African Americans in the vilest, crudest, foulest language I have ever heard, including graphic descriptions of sex acts.
It was appallingly disgusting, and, of course the papers couldn't print what they said, and the tv news couldn't show it. Language like that doesn't play well in Pittsburgh.
Free speech gives assholes the right to shoot themselves in both feet repeatedly, as witness the KKK in Pittsburgh.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 09:51 PM

Good rant, though, Giok. I am a prime example of what you describe, except in this setting, I am generally not afraid.

I look at it as a contest between politically correct and brutally honest.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:53 PM

Apart from obvious exceptions, this PC climate has made most of us afraid to say what we think in case we get called for being whatever 'ist' is in vogue. There is no more grey, everything is black or white and I for one am bored by it, there always was, and there always will be shades of opinion. Nobody is always right, just as nobody is always wrong, listen to what people say and how they say it, some of it might be good, don't just pick out the bit that floats your boat and condemn everything that is said. It's a bit like saying I hate congress just because you don't like one congressman.
Rant over.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:34 PM

I will be playing a good paying gig tonight after I leave my good paying job.

I'll kiss my pretty wife and go.

You on ther other hand will no doubt teach your students how to whine and play guitar about as well as fingers on a chalkboard.

You are Al Franken's puppet, Don. He wants to own your butt hole.

You are so obsessed with what I say you will be back to check this first opportunity. If not, you will be trying to remember what it was like decades ago when you had your last erection so that it helps aleviate the blood flow pressure to your already smarmy swollen head.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:16 PM

Marty, it's impossible to have any kind of rational discussion with you because you won't discuss. You make an assertion, then if someone questions it, you start heaping abuse on them. That's the mark of someone who has strong opinions, but doesn't have a clue as to where those opinions came from. No thought processes involved, just pure, raw emotional reaction.

By the way, I don't listen to Al Franken. I find political commentators, even ones who share my viewpoint, to be a pretty much a waste of time. I already have a good idea of what they're going to say. I don't need them to tell me what to think. I'd rather concentrate on factual information, then form my own opinion.

As far as not having a life is concerned, I'll be away from the computer for the rest of the day. I have guitar students coming this afternoon. And what will you be doing, little man, other than sitting there at you computer trying to think up something nasty to say?

And as far as "psychobabble" is concerned, that's your department. You're psycho and about all you do is babble.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 04:40 PM

Get a life.

you have none except your computer and you know it.

Keep listening to Al Franken. He's funny but that's all he is. He speaks your language. NoSpeak.

You are the king of psycho-babble, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 04:31 PM

I don't call people bigots just because I don't agree with them, I call them bigots because they're bigots.

I, too, am glad that there is the freedom for people like Michael Savage, or you, for that matter, to express their views, no matter how hate-filled or asinine those opinions may be. But be aware that if the politicians you seem to favor—and twits like Savage—get their way, only they will be free to say what they want. Savage wants the various organizations that try to protect the First Amendment to be abolished because he disagrees with what they are trying to do: protect freedom of speech. Even his. The man is a Neanderthal (my apologies to Neanderthals).

And your method of discussion is to call anyone you disagree with a "moron." That, in itself, is pretty moronic. Get a clue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:26 PM

No spouting, Don

And not liking someone for their culture is not the same as hating someone for their culture. All people like you do in your self-appointed self rightousness do an say is call someone a bigot when they don't agree with you. If I don't like gay lifestyles but not hate them, that does not make me a bigot. It just makes me a person who has an opinion and not afraid to say it.

what it makes you is a judge of nothing but your own self-appointed rightous ways, as I said before at this point I am glad there is the freedom of someone like Michael Savage to be on the air to say what he wants. No one is forcing you to listen, but if you did, you will see why your so called tolerance is about is phony as can be, and why your agenda has divided America.

I am not at all being libelous when I say that you are a moron. You can go ahead and listen to the likes of Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon which is whose opinions you parallel, not to mention fat ass Michael Moore, who is now only interested in promoting for a Golden globe Award. Your heroes, Don. Your spokespeople.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 01:05 PM

Marty, Michael Savage is a hate-monger and a bigot. All a reasonable person has to do is listen to or read a little bit of his stuff to see that. Example:   a caller identifies himself to Savage as gay, and Savage tells him to "get AIDS and die!" That's just one, but it's typical. I could fill a couple of pages with the same kind of Michael Savage venom. The man is a pig. I see where you get your political opinions and social graces.

And try to get it right. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist Party. Nor do I get a "wonderful American made diability check" [sic]. I presume you intended to type "disability". My livelihood is earned. The rest of your libel doesn't merit answering.

The difference between you and Michael Savage is that Michael Savage has a radio program. The only place you have to spout off is on this forum.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Flash Company
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 10:00 AM

It seems to me that arresting the BNP guys is just what they want, it will give them free coverage in all the national newspapers in the build up to a General Election, anyone prepared to bet that it won't win votes for them?

FC

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 07:30 AM

What we have is this controlling government wanting to even control our thoughts, with the liberal left acting as the 'Thought Police'
Personally I think the start of PC was the women's lib movement with all their de-sexing of titles like chairman. However one of the quotes I've heard about what this BNP guy said was that he described the Moslem religion as "wicked and cruel", which when looked at from western standards it is. I'm sure that if someone said that to me down the pub I'd agree. This is mainly because of their punishments for transgressions against their religion by its adherents, and what seems to me like their ante deluvian atitude towards their women.

Giok

PS You seem to be feeling better Harvey.;~)

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 07:22 AM

BNP=Bloody Nasty People.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:58 AM

"You are, however, free to think what you want. You are not free to use your power to influence others to hate."

Isn't that a bit self-contradictory? Aren't the people who are being 'influenced' also free to formulate their own opinions? All of us here have condemned the BNP, despite having been subjected to their propaganda. I doubt someone who was in no way rascist beforehand would be convinced by the ramblings of a group of neo-nazi idiots.

I do think the leader should be locked up, because he is evidently a dangerous man regardless of his political views. One doesn't stockpile illegal weapons unless one intends to use them, after all.
However, legislation that stifles in any way freedom of speech is open to abuse, not just by the present government but by any subsequent government. That has to be taken into account- even on the off-chance that Tony and his pals are acting with good intention, in this period of time when our liberties are being quietly taken away it's important to consider the future.

Just playinmg Devils advocate...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:39 AM

Thanks, Giok! Lot to think about. If I sort out what I think, I'll post about it.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 06:29 AM

Dianavan makes an excellent case. The point were harvey and dianavan (and my own view) converge is from where Harvey says
1)The BNP is motivated by the race issue but defends itself on the basis of the choice issue.
Dianavan says
2)You are, however, free to think what you want. You are not free to use your power to influence others to hate.

in this particular case the BNP are using political freedom = "choice" to try to take those political freedoms away from others. I do not believe that this is acceptable.

If society is to function rights AND responsabilities must be applicable to all groups.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: harvey andrews
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:43 AM

I take your point Dianavan, but inside any culture there are many choices. Our own world is one example..folk dance or line dance,then...literate or illiterate,binge drinker or social drinker,sport or game player,foxhunter or protester, ....and so on.Everyone has multiple choices inside any culture and therefore must take responsibility for how they make those choices and the effects those choices have on the lives of others.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 05:37 AM

There you go WYSIWYG some background on the incitement question, and it seems they come to the same conclusion as me, it is difficult to prove. Daily Telegraph 15/12/04
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 03:55 AM

I can't believe anybody would prosecute Martin Gibson on the basis of what he said. They may not agree with the emphasis he has put on things - but its a free country, nobody has to agree with anybody else.

Can the BNP ever be integrated into English politics. I don't think so - not in the foreeable future. Too much history.

All these years of holocaust denial, and generally expressing the idea that Hitler had his good points. Hitler buggered up a lot of peoples lives. Most of our parents , if they weren't actually involved in the fighting, they saw their cities bombed and buring. Hitler was very bad news.

There are some people I would talk about perceptions of immigration with, and our multicultural society - the plusses and the minusses. Anybody from the BNP is not the person to talk to, the smoking chimneys of Auswitchz are forever in the background.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Dec 04 - 12:49 AM

Harvey I agree with part of the statement, "You can't choose your race, but your culture and your religion are your choices and yours alone."

I don't think you can choose culture. You may adopt a new one but there will always be parts of the original culture that will stay with you (and so it should). Culture is not so easily shed. Culture includes your 'mother tongue' and the values and beliefs that are transmitted from one generation to another. It usually takes a couple of generations to rid yourself of the culture you were born into.

It is not easy to assimilate into another culture. For one thing, they might not want you.

Culture is not really a choice. In other words, religion is the only real choice you have. Sometimes thats not even an option (especially for children).

If we wish to live in peace, we must learn to tolerate differences and remember that there are far more similarities.

As far as gangs go - the best way to survive if you are uneducated and poor is the black market. Its not really about race, religion or culture. Its about controlling territory and the lucrative profits to be made from the misery of others. Given education and social status, these gangsters would probably be white collar criminals. Criminals are criminals regardless of race, religion or culture.

Hate crimes are committed against an individual(s) because they belong to an easly identifiable group. Hate is hate. If you are in a position of power, you have a responsibility to refrain from inciting hatred. You are, however, free to think what you want. You are not free to use your power to influence others to hate.

Your freedom ends where another persons freedom begins. We must learn to solve our problems by learning from one another. Hate is just a wall of evil.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:14 PM

First of all, I do not like or listen to Rush Limbough or the likes os Sean Hannity.

Michael Savage is highly entertaining and these links do not tell the whole story and are from expectedly biased sources.. He is heard daily in over 300 radio markets and has had two best sellers.

He is truly brash, opinionated, at times angry, and quite often dead on right. He is listened to by millions every day for a reason: people relate to a lot of what he says about what is happening to America.

So, Don, you can point fingers all you want, but very few are listening while millions are listening to Michael Savage daily. Ake made a much better arguement and you as usual come across as an angry, knee jerking communist, sponging off your wonderful American made diability check, and hiding behind a facade of pretensious tolerance when it suits you as convenient. Ake's opinion was much well thought out and I highly respect it, while your opinions are predicably knee jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 07:17 PM

Judging from the number of times Martin Gibson has cited Michael Savage, he seems to be quite a fan.

And who, exactly is Michael Savage? HERE. And where did he come from? HERE.

He makes Rush Limbaugh sound like Mr. Rogers. Not exactly a paragon of political acumen. All heat. No light.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:58 PM

Well spoken, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: harvey andrews
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:46 PM

Any judgements made on the basis of race only are invalid and obnoxious.However, we should all be able to criticise as vehemently as we like cultural or religious choices. You can't choose your race, but your culture and your religion are your choices and yours alone.
The BNP is motivated by the race issue but defends itself on the basis of the choice issue.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 06:16 PM

The problem is, when governments try to exert control on personal freedoms, they never stop at sorting out racial or religious disharmony.
They then try to consolidatate their position through legislation against those they percieve to be dangerous.

Those would be in Martins opinion,(Ithink) communists, trade unionists ,athiests and progressives of all sorts.
Those that I see as a danger, are capitalists and religeous nuts of all denominations.
So the problem seems insoluble

In my opinion,we need to work out if we want a future under the capitalist system, or something more in tune with the environment,which will envolve a long learning curve.

If we can determine a way forward which will make the lives of our grandchildren and great grandchildren happier and more fulfilling,
then we can put the controls in place to make it happen.

Until that time we should be very carefull about any repression of personal freedoms...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:33 PM

Define British culture, excluding any immigrant influences...methinks it can't be done.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:22 PM

There should be a line but the POLITICALLY CORRECT will l call it ethnic profiling.

I call it common sense. People should be held accountable for what they are going to contribute to a society when they are let into a country as an immigrant.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 05:06 PM

I dont agree with political correctnes but I have to say I agree with censorship so from my opinion it is a metter of degrees or where you draw the line. As a politician I'm sometimes resposible for where that line is drawn. The argument that there should not be a line falls down when taken to its logical conclusion.
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:22 PM

Giok, that is scary to me. there is more than a germ of truth to it, there is plenty of truth to it.

If you do not have the freedom to express sentiments like that, let me tell you pal, you have no freedom.

We have people on our radio broadcasting these kinds of truths.

Please read the book, "The enemy within" by Michael Savage

The Radically left politically correct have caused you these problems and are threatening the culture of your country.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Grab
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:09 PM

You mean it doesn't???

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 03:02 PM

LOL BI

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:54 PM

Here was me thinking BNP stood for Braindead Nazi Pricks...

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:50 PM

Wysiwyg it's like a lot of legal definitions inasmuch as it's capable of different interpretations. English law is 'case law' and based largely on precedent, but as with the charge of 'carrying an offensive weapon' the police have to prove intent to use whatever it is you're charged with carrying. People have been convicted on an offensive weapon charge for carrying or wearing boots/umbrellas/finger rings, among others. Incite is as long as a piece of string, what will stir you up is different to what would stir me up, and it's difficult to prove.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:46 PM

Cant give you the legal definitions S too long ago its on the net I think and I wasn't a lawyer (I was just a legal executive) but I did review most of the material but I dont want to repeat what i saw here

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

Cllr, what is the standard for "incitement"? What has to be proved?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Cllr
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 02:29 PM

OK here we go again,
I believe in censorship hence I do not believe in complete freedom of speech.

I worked for the crown prosecution service (special cases division) where we dealt with incitemet to racial hatred I can spot national front/bnp literature a mile off - NO PLATFORM
Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

Can someone please look up the applicable law and tell me what "incite" means legally?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 01:09 PM

Well there you go Martin, in this country you could be arrested for saying that if some busybody brought it to the notice of the police. Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, although there is a germ of truth in some of what you say, but in these PC days you just can't get away with saying things like that, and that's what I abhor, the fact that race realtions, like social services has become an industry in the UK. These people don't want you to hear any other thoughts on these issues apart from the ones they deem correct. It's "1984" all over again.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:57 PM

"Susan...Many innercity areas in Scotland and England have become home to people of different ethnic origin.

Mainly Pakistani, Indian and the indigenous Scots in our area.

There is very little integration or even socialising among the different communities, and the gangs of youths in these areas are exclusively "one race"."



Scotland and England!! Your tolerance, political correctness, and lack of screening who you let into your country has led to this problem accurately described by Ake.

Your identity and culture will continue to erode because of this.

These people you have let in do not care to assimilate into your culture and expect you to cater to theirs.

I welcome immigrants into America who want to learn the language and fully integrate with American society. No one is saying to lose your cultural identity, but America is not your old country in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 12:32 PM

I say no platform for Nazis, should have arrested them years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:43 AM

"Race" is an illusion, it does not exist, that is not to say that people don't look like other people from the same area, just that you cannot assume that the way people look tells you about other aspects of there genetic makeup.
As an example all the native people of sub-Saharan Africa have the black skin adaptation, yet there is more genetic diversity amongst them than the rest of humanity put together. This is what you would expect, as there have been modern humans in Africa longer than anywhere else.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:42 AM

BS: I heard nothing of this?!?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:35 AM

Susan....More genetic problems.

BS: I heard nothing of this?!?

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:30 AM

Susan..Sorry i cant do a clicky (genetic problems)

BS: Why havn't I heard of this?!?.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

True John ...But I find the whole senario more worrying than the mindless violence and bigotry we've grown used to over the years.

The cultural, religious\rascial element adds a dimension which could get right out of control.

The famous "war on terror" and encouraged mistrust of all things Middle Eastern,to justify our position in Iraq does not help.Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:26 AM

ake, thanks. Did you post in the thread you mentioned? If so it could be found by looking up your posts....

Are there any grassroots efforts to bring these gangs together (or their leaders privately) to start the proces of getting to know one another in a safe setting? That kind of background alliance-building, tho it takes awfully long, has borne fruit in many of the world's trouble spots. It's sensitive work, so it rarely gets much publicity-- publicity actually inhibits the process at the start.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:13 AM

Still Ake it provides a bit of variety, if someone is fed up killing people because they support the wrong football team or pray in the wrong church, they can add a new variety to their bigotry and use the colour of their skin as an excuse for their aggressive nature. It just shows how fertile is the imagination of the average Scottish 'ned'.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 11:11 AM

Susan...Many innercity areas in Scotland and England have become home to people of different ethnic origin.

Mainly Pakistani, Indian and the indigenous Scots in our area.

There is very little integration or even socialising among the different communities, and the gangs of youths in these areas are exclusively "one race".

There has been a very good thread here recently on this subject,cant remember the thread name at the moment....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: BNP Leader Arrested
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 10:49 AM

Ake my friend-- what is a "race gang"?

~Susan