BS: A question for Mormons

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 12:19 PM

Susu. I reacted the way I did, because both Pogo and myself felt as though we'd stated quite clearly that such a topic simply was not relevant. I stated outright that I was not casting judgement on you, but felt that your comments were loaded because of the specific nature of the questioning.

There's an intersting scripture in the book of mormon by Jacob 4:14 in which the Jacob explains how the Jews of his generation went awry.

      verse 14. But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

The issue of Blacks and the Priesthood, or Polygamy, or any of the unusual doctrinal questions that have arisen from Kolob to whatever else you can dream up in order to fuel your doubts, is akin to God delivering unto men many things that which they cannot understand.

Do you honestly believe you can understand all things that come from God in this life?

Is there some scripture out there that garantees his followers a perfect understanding of all things in this life?

And if there is something that is some doctrinal question hidden under some rock somewhere, unturned and unexposed, why should it matter to how we must behave today?

Personally I'd much rather receive the light and knowledge required to get me through my generation, rather than dwell upon unanswered questions from forty years ago, but then, I'm in a different situation than you are...

That is why I spoke plainly about the issue. We were instructed at the time when the revelation came instructing all members to leave those old apologetics of Cain and such alone. They are irrelevant. Whether that is because they are false, or because they no longer apply or because they were distorted later by defensiveness or because they were misrepresented or for NONE of those reasons, WE DO NOT KNOW. It simply isn't a matter of public discourse, and anyone who tells you that they know the real definitive reason behind it is probably overstating themselves.

I've heard all sorts of reasons for it, in my day, including a very interesting story related to me by my Father-in-Law in which David O MacKay and the 12 had petitioned God to repeal the policy, and according to my father-in-law the answer they received was "Not yet, the Saints are not ready for the change."

It may be, thus, that the general membership of the church simply didn't care enough about the issue until all members were praying for an answer.

All of these things are supposition, and further they do not explain "WHY" such a policy was put in place, only that such a policy was taken seriously out of belief and respect for the way things were done in the past.

Does it bother you that mormons DON'T have all the doctrinal answers?

It is clear from the way that I explain this to you that I have opinions about this matter, but they are not doctrinal, nor are they relevant. I would exort you to forget anything you've been told about the seed of Cain or any such teachings, as they apply to mormons, because they are simply not a matter of interest or discours among mormons any longer, other than in the fringe cases where we run up against antimormon literature and those folks with an agenda who simply want to sew seeds of contention.

I called you a troll because after explaining how things work as best I knew, you "appeared to" (and I am more than willing to admit I may have read more into your text messages than you intended) completely disregard my comments and state that what I had written simply wasn't reality. My thoughts were, at the time, well if she knows reality and continues to ask the questions, then clearly she's a troll, because that's what trolls do... they know the answer before they ask it, they simply want to watch people squirm over what they perceive to be uncomfortable questioning.

And that is precisely why I called into question the matter of "Christian love". If you were raised mormon, they you must be aware of precisely how "christian love" has been used against mormons in the past. It was Christian love that killed many of the early members of the church, drove them from home after home, and spread intollerance. Preachers of intollerance, hiding behind the banner of christianity, pretending to do some great spiritual service in the name of God.

Quite frankly, I don't care who thinks I'm wrong in this, and who thinks I'm right. I am trying to live the restored Gospel according to my own understanding, and for mormons, much of their religion is as much about DOING as it is about some immutable dogma or belief structure.

We have no creeds; we have covenants.

We commit ourselves to live according to the laws we believe come from God, and to respect the authority from which came the restoration, believing that Christ will someday make all things known through the channels of revelation he has established in this age.

Thus when someone makes a big deal about a doctrine that is not taught in the church, it simply misses the point. As long as a member of the Mormon faith covenants to respecting the order of the restoration, it simply doesn't matter what they believe in terms of apologetic doctrines or notions.

That is why I encouraged you and anyone curious, in my first post, to acquaint themselves with LIVE mormons in their own communities. You will find a whole slew of beliefs and different takes, and at the same time they have a common belief structure in that they believe in the Book of Mormon as another Testament of Christ, they believe in the restoration of the Gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith, and they believe that there is a living prophet on the earth today, and that prophet is Gordon B. Hinckley. We believe that man must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by one who holds the proper authority and then they will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and must endure to the end...

And then more or less anything goes...

Sigh...

Perhaps I'm overstating this too. . .

My point is that Being mormon is more than explaining obscure doctrines. I have known many LDS who hold all sorts of weird opinions about all sorts of doctrines and history of the church. They are faithful in their religion not because of a belief. There is no mormon Nicene "creed of polygamy" for example... Instead there's merely our day to day life, trying to adhere to principles of scripture that lead us, line upon line, precept upon precept slowly back to our Father in Heaven.

Family is important to LDS, you were raised with this notion, and now you're at odds with your parents. I have no simple solutions for this, because your parents probably DO feel betrayed or saddened by your choice to abandon the faith they love. All I can say is that in your quest to justify your actions, don't go looking for "Dirt" on mormons. I hope it's obvious and I don't have to explain further why this is a terribly destructive way to go about mending your relationship. If you are intent upon patching things up, you should look for common ground, and ignore the rest.

You bet there's plenty of "dirt" on mormons, or catholics, or protestants, or evangelicals, and plenty of reasons to hate them all, but we all share a common belief in Christ, and I believe Christ does not want us fighting regardless of doctrines we hold most sacred.

I hope that you have success in reaching out to your family. I hope you will seek out the LDS community in your area and get to know a few mormons in THIS generation. If you do this, you'll find ways to let go of whatever frustrations you feel, and true healing will occur.

Best regards,

--Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Com Seangan
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 01:23 PM

"whites are now allowed in the Nation of Islam. Probably for the same reasons".

Why is this silly statement made on this thread. Whites were always welcome in Islam. Also blacks. The black Balal was one of Mohammed's most faithful followers.

Denigrading anyone's else's religion only indicates our own narrow mind. It is not in the interests of peace and good will towards our fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM

"Guest, because you cannot trust the intent of those who make websites on religious issues. I cannot vouch for any site except for those associated with LDS.org"

Simple point, this was not a LDS rule dreamed up out of the ether, the reason I used the Bible was to prove the point that it is lineage not skin pigmentation.

As for the site those who put it up have backed up their claim with documented evidence,did you look at the grave stone pic?

The seventy are named in the Ensign and will be in Church records.

Lets hope that this puts an end to the racist issue.

"If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views"

This speaks volumes to me. I understand where you come from, the pushing of doctine down your throat is not very nice. What frustrates me is the people who pontificate and put weird theories forward with some kind of authority.

I too have problems with the weird and wonderful statements people come out with, and the forceing of their will on others. More often than not these people display a great pride which is accompanied with ignorance.

More often than not many LDS forget the lesson Jesus taught us while on earth. He gave us the message of God but did not force us to accept it, many, LDS need to remember that, including your parents.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:20 PM

Okay, to all who "question my motives" I will say this, you DO NOT know me, I am not one to stir up trouble, this was a sincere inquiry and now I am sadly extremely sorry that I even posted this question. If I had wanted people to be ugly to me about my questioning the practices of the LDS church, I would have simply gone to my parents house so they could again tell me what a disappointment that I am to them because I do not share their views. I was wanting to get some other perspectives on the issue that would not lead to people making me feel bad for asking, and would give me answers that were not tainted with anger and disappointment so that I may better understand my parents and their beliefs and possibly bridge the distance and hurt feelings that they have. I have tried asking missionaries and they either do not have answers to my questions, or they seem to dance around the issues and then continually try to re-convert (for lack of a better phrase) me. The bishop at our local ward was the same way, and even my husband went to ask him questions, and he would not answer certain questions but would change the subject. I have never questioned the missionaries or the bishops motives in doing this as God, not I know their hearts and intentions. I think it is sad that I again have to expalin to someone why I do what I do. I really thought that if people read my posts that they would be able to understand them. This makes me wonder if all of you who "question my motives" are as cynical as you seem, thinking that all people who hear your beliefs and do not subscribe to them have some sort of hidden agenda. If that is the case, I feel truly sorry for you. I am not an evil person. My apologies to everyone. I will no longer post to this thread, if anyone else wants to keep it going, best of luck to you. If anyone else would like to ask me anything pm me, otherwise you will not get a response. Also, this is the end to my inquiring anything regarding the LDS church FROM ANYONE! If I meet anyone that is a member I will simply make it clear that I DO NOT wish to discuss their beliefs, I respect them, but I will not talk about them. Take care all, In Christs' Love Susanne

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 12:03 PM

Guest, because you cannot trust the intent of those who make websites on religious issues. I cannot vouch for any site except for those associated with LDS.org and I could not find anything on their website in regards to this matter. I am an extremely intelligent person and have already gone to all these sites and more prior to my post. Thank you. Susanne

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:54 AM

SUSU, why did you not do a simple google on the subject?

All the answers to your questions are there, you were caught out being disengenous.

A simple google like black mormons would yeild among other sites this,
http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html and http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/SAQ.html
"SOME ANSWERED QUESTIONS
Regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints & People of Black African (Hamitic) Lineage"

It was uplifting to see that many did not use this as an excuse to bash my Church and I suspose the simple answer to your question was a simple the Church did not God did.

To qualify this, could the following be a simple example of Jesus being "Racist", or adhering to Gods law?

Jesus Himself considered Canaanites to be "dogs" (lowly servants) and under the "Curse of Canaan" instituted by Noah.

A Canaanite woman once came to Jesus and begged Him to heal her daughter:

"Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is greivously vexed with a devil.
But he answered he not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away;f or she crieth after us.
He answered, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet [proper] to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord; yet the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from the master's table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt.
And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." (Matthew 15:20-26)


The answer to the situation is this "O woman, great is thy faith; be it unto thee even as thou wilt." Simply put this woman had so much faith in God that the curse on her lineage, which is a big factor with many religions, was over come due to her truely believing in God.

The same applies to "Black" people, Elijah Abel (1810-1884). He had so much faith in the Church that God allowed him to hold the priesthood and other offices.

We must understand that Elijah Abel acccepted the situation, as did others that the law pertains to. Which btw does not relate to skin color at all but blood, all of Elijah Abels's descendents are white.


To press the point the blue eyed blond may have been the one excluded if any of his ancestors had been black at any stage.

All this is out there for those genuinely interested, but posting such a question here makes me question your motives.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:56 PM

I want to thank everyone once again for their input on this subject. I do however; feel saddened by the fact that there were some who insensitively used this thread to make fun of those in the LDS church. And to Ray, in regards to your comment about me being a troll because I did not identify myself as being raised in the LDS church when I started this thread, please go back and re-read my second post which I made that fact clear. It was not my intentions to make anyone think that I did not have prior knowledge of the church and it's teachings so as soon as I realized that I omitted that and people may think I was investigating the church for possible membership, I rectified the situation by making my second post reflect my background. Also, my third post mentions that I was raised in the LDS church and that my father was the one with whom I have had disagreements with over this matter. I also would like to direct you to the post I made on 08 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM. In this post I thanked those who seriously responded to my inquiry, and voiced my disapproval to those who made fun of the members of the church. So, for you to call me a troll was not only uncalled for, but it makes me feel that you obviously are very sensitive about your beliefs. That is fine, I also would like for you to know that I have actually asked Joe about closing this thread on more than one occasion. Also on my post 30 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM, I mentioned that I would not mind this thread being closed. So before anyone else decides to call me a troll, re-read all my posts, you will then see that is not the case. Also, RAY, I do not doubt your sincerity when you wish anyone Christian love and I think it was rather hypocritical of you to state that I was not sincere. You do not know me, you cannot judge my heart, only God knows what is in everyone's heart and we are not to be judgmental. If I am not mistaken, the LDS church actually cautions people in judging others. Best to you, Susanne

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 07:13 PM

*nods* Yup. :) And well you guys know my feelings on the matter. So God bless. We have to live our lives the best way we can. Susu and hubby I respect your devotion to your faith. If there's anything else you or anybody wish to ask about the LDS faith in particular I will be happy to talk about it. Because I do just honestly enjoy discussing such things. However I really am done with talking about it all in this thread. Okay? Okay. :) Peace be with you and all that good stuff

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:49 PM

Sorry I posted this by mistake, I do not want to fuel this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:48 PM

Q. Did the Church end the Priesthood-ban because of outside pressure?

A. No! During the late 1960s and early 1970s many blacks and some whites protested the Church's denial of the Priesthood to black men; saying it was "discrimination" and "racist". The Church responded by asking them why they would want the Church to grant to black men a "Priesthood" they considered to be "false" in the first place! It would be like a white man saying, "I have the Power of God that He has delegated to me! Blacks cannot have this Power. He has decreed that, and not me." Then blacks and some whites confront him saying, "Oh, you are a RACIST! You are evil! You are LYING! You invented this tale of yours. You have no 'Power of God'! But, you MUST give blacks this Power you don't have, or we will beat you and harrass you until you do!"

How "ridiculous" is to complain that the Church did not ordain black men when those complaining believed the Church, and its Priesthood, was FALSE? ABSURD! Yet, this is what they did.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 05:18 PM

Ray and Pogo,

Please do not get me mixed up with my wife. But please understand, she came from an LDS family and is quite as confused and perplexed about the belief structure of the LDS church as I am. I'm trying to be as patient as I can about understanding your beliefs and please understand that we are as passionate about our beliefs as you are of yours. She too, like you Pogo, knows what she believes and why she believes it but sometimes she has so many thoughts going through her head it is hard to put them all down in words. But I still love her very much. She's so cute when she gets angry! (Except when she's angry at me!)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:40 PM

Not to add to this arguement but this provoked a family discussion on this issue.

Here is an excerpt from http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html

"Black Mormons" are Mormons of black African lineage of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; commonly known as The Mormon Church (also called "The LDS Church" or The Mormon Faith). There have been Black Mormons since 1832; two years after the official founding of the Church in New York State in 1830. One of the first Seventies of the LDS Church was a Black Mormon by the name of Elijah Abel (1810-1884). Because of his great faith, he was ordained to the Priesthood and became a member of the Third Quorum of Seventy; a priesthood-office just under Apostle. He was a personal friend to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and helped to rescue him from mobs in Missouri bent upon taking his life. Elijah Abel's son Enoch and grandson Elijah were also ordained to various offices in the Priesthood. Elijah Abel died in Salt Lake City, Utah, at the age of 74; just after having served a mission for the Church in Canada and Cincinnati, Ohio.

I hope this puts an end to the ignorance some og us have about this issue,even within my family circle.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:52 PM

:) Ah-ah...it's cool Ray. I sent a PM just a bit ago. The matter's settled and we've all said our peace. It's dead and done, friends, let's think no more on it but on better things.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:35 PM

It is clear, Susu, from your last post and your first that you are a troll. If you had wanted to discuss this topic you could've been honest from where you come from, but you weren't.

WHile I am not your judge, I must frankly say that your "christian love" with which you sign your posts does the body of decent honest christians no service, because I see your posts as fundamentally dishonest.

You had no intent to ask questions, and when we answered the questions not according to your preconceived notions, you claim that we're deluding ourselves.

Questions of faith and cultural biases are difficult issues to manage. Racism has been justified by very religious people and I am not going to condemn anyone to hell for it. I have expressed my opinion on it, but unless God tells me otherwise, I will stick with it.

Pogo has answered your questions and done so honestly. I fail to see what you gain by continuing your quest to decry mormons for something you continue to demonstrate a fundamental inability to grasp.

Best regards,

--Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:04 PM

Yes...but you seem to not realize. I do think about my faith. I think about how it works all the time. I do have questions. And I take those questions to God and I ponder them and I study scriptures and I study the writings of wise men and women and not just those that are LDS. So forgive me but I don't see how that is blind faith. I would hope that everyone does that, no matter what their faith is.

Quite frankly I am puzzled and sad. I get the impression (forgive me if it's wrong) that the whole intent of the thread was to focus solely on this one issue (which has already been discussed quite thoroughly) and somehow through that hint that everything that I believe in is untrue.

I am sorry you feel this way towards the LDS faith. I don't know why. I don't take that viewpoint towards what you believe. It just seems like you want to argue about it instead of seeking for common ground. I don't believe in that. Arguing over beliefs doesn't bring any kind of understanding. So I guess here is where we part ways. Good luck and God bless you and yours, also.

Joe close this thread please. There's nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:44 PM

Well, I know that the LDS church taught the Cain issue. My parents have been members since 1967 or 1968 I can't really remember exactly when, but I know that it was a teaching from the higher authorities. Even before the ban was lifted, it was a discussion in our stake that soon there would be a change. There was alot of political pressure due to the fact that segregation was a hot topic due to George Wallace's stance, and affirmative action was in place. Sadly, the fact that affimative action was first discussed by President Johnson in 1965, even though the 1964 Civil Rights Act had already been signed into law. Yet this did nothing for equality. The fact that it was not until the 70's that it became apparent that segregation was truly wrong. Even today, there are those narrow-minded people who think that the 1954 Brown vs. the Board of Education of Topeka, should not have been imposed. Now that being said, the LDS church probably would still be banning blacks if segregation was still in practice. I feel really sorry for those people who have bought into what the church tells them that this former practice was acceptable because in someway it was ordained by God. Get a clue people, they basically justified (and members let them), racism. This is FACT! And again, I go back to your "Articles of Faith" that man shall be punished for his own sins and not for Adams transgressions. We are all accountable only for what sins we commit, not for what our ancestors do, and if you in any way believe that this is not a true statement, then you really need to re-evaluate the teachings of your church. Now onto the belief that I have about the Godhead. It is like this, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It would be the same as Macbeth, Can McBeth meet Shakespear? If Shakespear wrote himself into a play then yes he could. Well God is the author, and He wrote himself into our world to atone for our sins. Or like an egg. you have the shell, the white, and the yolk, they all create the egg, they are one. There you have it. Again, if you just take what the church tells you on "blind faith" then you are risking your salvation, and I pray that you will question EVEERYTHING! It is your job, as it is your soul. Much Christian Love, Susanne

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 07:20 PM

Hah {O) Well said Ray.

I can vouch for this guest. Ray is a friend of mine from another forum. I told him about the stuff being discussed in his thread. He's got his act together ;o)

" dear lord...they travel in herds! " {OP

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 06:40 PM

When the revelation came that all worthy males may receive the priestood (lifting the "ban"), LDS were instructed to forget or disregard ANY teaching on the subject.

I remember that day because at the time it was revealed, my parents were so excited. My father later explained that while serving in the temple he had had a personal revelation that the priestood restrictions was about to be lifted. They were so happy.

The fact that some LDS leaders spoke about Cain's seed is niether here nor there. We simply don't know what is the truth behind the policies, and we were instructed that what had been taught in the past was to cease, that it was not to continue. The point is that it simply isn't relevant. There are some who may be sympathetic to this or that notion, I suppose.

I give the following as my personal opinion, which does not affect my standing in the church, nor does it matter. It simply is, to me, an interesting historical aside... Personally I think the Cain idea is ridiculous, and was most likely borrowed by protestant apologists by members of the LDS church. Joseph Smith himself gave the priesthood to one Elijah Abel who was a black man. The fact of the matter was that there weren't many black converts originally, and that a doctrine that might have come from some other fundamentalist sect was somehow adopted as a "policy" in the church, or more credibly, was adopted as a way to appease the murderous mobs of Missouri many of which were pro-slavery. It was these same mobs that murdered Joseph Smith, and thus the legacy of what might have been a clarified doctrine and set straight in policy in the church took a sabatical while the saints sought to save the remnants of their own lives.

When you're fleeing for your life into a barren wilderness, you tend not to care if you're politically correct. The remaining colonies fought a bloody war that became all about slavery, while mormons were making their first settlements in the Mountain valleys of Deseret.   

The fact that the church was able to thrive and go through many changes, many of which occurred just decades prior, is remarkable. It is to Joseph Smith's credit that reading the Doctrine and Covenants today is as relevant as it was when he was prophesying. It went from being an internally looking religion, one which encouraged every new convert to gather in Utah, to one that became more accepted as worldwide tolerance of religious diversity also became more than just a sentence written on the Constitution. It wasn't until a few years ago that the state of Illinois and Missouri even repealed some laws and decrees, or apologized to Mormons for state sanctioned laws that incited violence and intolerance.

It was not until the church was able to expand beyond the intermountain western area of the USA that it would be able to confront some of the issues regarding its policies. This is the nature of a living church, able to adapt to the endtimes as they hit us. There are all sorts of "strange" notions and programs that appear different to outsiders, but given the seal of the Holy Spirit for the times in which we live, they make a lot of sense. LDS have been encouraged to plant gardens, collect a year's worth of basic food and emergency supplies, to stay out of debt, not partake of drugs, drink caffeine, collect geneaological information, live healthy lifestyles, keep the sabbath day holy, have water instead of wine in their sacrament, baptize not babies but children at an age of accountability (8), tithing, the building of temples apart from churches, a welfare program, church farms and canneries, its missionary program for 19 yr old young men, 21 yr old young women and retired couples, Monday night is family night, home teaching, 3 hour Sunday meeting block, encouragement to participate in the boy scout program, encouragement to write in a journal... and the list goes on... the point is that you're better off getting your information from actual LDS who are currently IN the church and a part of it.

It's not a simple matter of so and so said such and such, because above all, LDS believe that all members need to have a witness of the truthfulness of the restored Gospel--a revelation from God--that they belong to his church. That is obtained by careful study of the scriptures, thought and discussion, and sincere prayer. LDS members choose to be a part of the church. Parents teach their children with the hopes that they will choose to be part of it as well, but most parents recognize that despite the best parenting, children make choices that often run counter to their wishes. Likewise, so does God.

God is not going to force anyone to be mormon, anymore than he forced the Jews to be Jewish. And in many ways, LDS view their religion in much the same way ancient Jews might have viewed their religion when they had an actual living prophet. What was God trying to teach the man he electrocuted when he attempted to steady the Ark and the Covenant? What was God trying to teach his children when they wandered for forty years in the wilderness, and complained everytime Moses asked them to do something that require an inkling of faith? Have humans suddenly changed their nature, that they no longer are willful or slow to heed God's commands today?

Everyone is born into the world ignorant. While we grow to adulthood our minds must confront many notions which we later find out to be untrue or we simply misunderstood their purpose, misascribed a reason to the reason that those around us behaved they way they did.

This is one reason why LDS are encouraged to be tolerant of other religions. We are encouraged in this day to seek common ground, and share in raising decent,upright, law-abiding families and to encourage good in others as well. Because we too have room for improvement and are desperately seeking the guidance and inspiration that can ONLY come from God, especially when it comes to things that ONLY God can answer.

That I believe that the LDS church is the true church of God on the earth, should not threaten anyone. I am not going to blow up some building or hack a head off. Instead I am being encouraged to be tolerant, loving, and patient, longsuffering and humble.

Such is life. And I personally am grateful to live in a time when my religion is not embattled--a time when the government of my land is NOT marshalling an army to destroy my home (other than whatever filth it allows to be sent over the broadcast channels or on the internet, and guess what, I can turn that stuff off)!

It is a great time to be alive. It is a great time to be a mormon. And I for one thank God every day for rich blessings... no conspiracies, no secret evil agendas, no desire to stomp on some underprivileged class, no illegal nastiness... I'm just a person of faith,

--Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Belfast/N.I./Ireland.
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

As a 2nd generation Mormon can I put some comments about the race issue forward.

I remember having the same distaste as others about the racism issue until I met a black missionary, well three.

I asked what they thought about the priesthood being denied to black member, including their parents, their answer was simple.

As they believed in the teaching of the Church, they had no problems following it's doctrines to the full. Two were amazed that people got offended on their behalf, seeing issues that are not there, in their minds.

The doors to the Church were not closed to black people just certain areas which true believers accepted.

This is not the case now, a living Prophet as like those in "Biblical times" instructed us otherwise, that's how they are preisthood holding missionaries now and no holding to old .

Often our concerns are misguided due to a level of ignorance as with this issue the answer is there if you are willing to accept it.

Danites were not around at the time of the Meadow Mountain Massacre, they occured later.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:02 PM

[I don't presume to understand the origin of God. I'm not asking to have the origin of God explained to me. This is an unknown that will have to wait until we all get to heaven to understand. I'm just trying to put my mind around how two ideas on opposite ends of the spectrum can exist in one belief structure.]

Me neither. And I'm just sort of pondering outloud on that concept since it relates in a way to your question but I don't have any black-and-white answers either just ponderings and speculations. I'd agree with you on that...The ideas we're discussing are pretty deep and perhaps from God's point of view they are fairly simple to understand but not so much from our point of view.

By the way I am glad you are asking questions like this. It is always good to ponder things which are of God. If there's any confusion I'm sorry. The fault lies in me. The ideas fit together in my head I just have trouble with putting them into words that are understandable :)

I PM'd you with further thoughts on the matter. Please read through those thoughts carefully and I hope it helps you come to more satisfactory answers :)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM

I don't presume to understand the origin of God. I'm not asking to have the origin of God explained to me. This is an unknown that will have to wait until we all get to heaven to understand. I'm just trying to put my mind around how two ideas on opposite ends of the spectrum can exist in one belief structure.

You are correct that the concept of beginnings, middle, and ends are from a human standpoint. But if God cannot relate to us in any way but a human point of view, then he has to make himself known in a way in which we (humans) would understand. You and I both agree that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. It's not a question of whether or not God existed. We all know that God has existed forever. The point of the statement, IMO, is that God is never changing. God has never sinned. So, from the human point of view, I understand that to be forever in all directions. ( a concept difficult to understand but with an ever expanding waist line...I'm starting to get a clue.);-)

I truly believe that God is not the author of confusion. So again I ask, How can these two beliefs co-exist when God has never sinned and has always been in the state that we understand them to be. I'm not asking for anyone to presume to know the mind of God. I'm just trying to reconcile these beliefs and am pondering how they can fit together in the same system.

In tons of Christian Love,


Susu's Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:46 PM

Well...what is your opinions on man's understanding of God's existence and God's understanding of His own existence?

What do we see from where we are? What does God see from where He is? We know about beginnings, middles and ends. We can understand yesterday, today and tommorrow. God existed yesterday, he exists today and he will exist tommorrow. This is perhaps a very broad and simple statement. It doesn't take into consideration on how we comprehend time and how God comprehends time.

Remember the old story of the blind men and the elephant? Each man was right about what a elephant looks like according to the extent of his knowledge and his personal perceptions. They however could not see the elephant in his entirety.

The nature of God and the nature of man has both similarities and differences. In that doctrine you speak of I'd like to point out that there is no claim on God's position as the Father and the Creator of the Universe. We don't ' become ' God any more than a daughter could become her mother or a son could become his father.

But well I don't pretend to know how God became God. And perhaps this is knowledge one simply cannot fathom given the limited capacity of our understanding while we live on this earth. But I do know that Jesus said " Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. " and I do know that in 1st John 3:2 it says " Beloved , now are we the sons of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is "

Those are difficult ideas both to ponder and to explain fully. I don't know that these thoughts are satisfactory answers to your question. If they aren't I'm truly sorry. I'm not sure how to put it all into words. But I personally believe that God would not have us do anything unless he knew we had the capacity to do it within us or else that he was preparing a way for us to achieve it. I believe that I am a child of God the same as we all are. Being so, we have obligations and responsibilties as children of God and yet we are not strangers in his household. We have within us something that is also a part of God Himself. Now...what do we do with it? Is it like the one talent give to the servant? Is it made to just sit there and do nothing? What do you think?

Observe our universe sometime. It's only one of God only knows how many. There's action going on all the time. Stars are born, stars collapse and die. Planets form from the dust of other planets and in turn cease to exist. There's this constant cycle of birth and rebirth. Where does it begin? Where does it cease to exist? I dunno. But I guess you could apply the same thinking to who and what God is.

The knowledge inherent in the human soul goes deeper than the knowledge of the human brain :) Just my rambly, disjointed thoughts. Hell...I'm not even sure what I'm thinking. But I'm trying my best to put it into words for ya.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:09 PM

Pogo,

(Again....not being confrontational....or trying to convert.....just curious....)

I do have one question. Let's take your two statements: a)You believe that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. (stated by you in your PM to me.) b) You have faith and belief in the LDS doctrine of eternal progression. (for those of you unfamiliar, doctrine of eternal progression is the belief that God was once a man and achieved Godhood. Man may also become a god of his own universe upon receiving admission into the Celestial Heavenly kingdom.)

How can these two beliefs co-exist when both are talking about the physical and spiritual side of man and or God?

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:52 PM

:) oh yeah...so where would those interested like to start? With the Joseph Smith questions? If so...give me a bit and I'll reply

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

*ahem*

Well...WB has his views, I have mine though it's the same religion and that's quite all right. Lily I suggested PMs because I figured everyone was pretty much bored with this thread and didn't want to continue with it ad nasueam. However I have no problem giving my opinions, thoughts and views on questions here or with PMs if there's still an interest. Provided they are asked in honest curiosity. It's just a personal thing with me. I take no pleasure in discussing religion when it turns into a debate for debate's sake because I feel that takes the Spirit right out of the conversation and turns it instead into a " why religion A is the better choice over religion B " See what I'm saying? :)

So guys...if you wish, yes I will discuss things further here and to the best of my ability

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:04 AM

Weasel Books, you're trying to persuade, not share or inform. I already believe God finds me whatever is perfect for me, every day. Your tone is patronising-- I didn't ignore or miss a thing you said. I just choose not to sit at your feet for further programming. I sure would not do it in private.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:03 AM

I mean communicating openly here where people can see what is stated, ask questions (that maybe I hadn't thought of), and the opportunity to see different points of view. I don't appreciate nasty posts anymore than you do, but I don't mind when someone respectfully shares their different point of view. That kind of thing helps me to think things out. Sooooooooooo...I'd much rather read here and ignore the flamers and trolls who are obviously not here to make any other point than their desire to huff and puff. I can overlook that kind of nonsense and you can too!

So.....let's start with the real basics....who was this Joseph Smith guy? Where did he come from? Why is he considered so important?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:14 AM

No desire to communicate openly??? To repeat: I have done so, even in the message above. I don't mind people disagreeing, not sharing my opinion, or anything like that, but why do I (or anyone else for that matter) need to take insults and abuse? There is a difference between abuse and disagreements.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:52 AM

Are you kidding me? A guarantee?!?!?!? Of no trolls? Forgive me, but this IS the internet and you will find folks who don't share your same opinion. Why not surf through and just read what looks good to you? I have to say that your lack of desire to communicate openly sends up red flags to me.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:47 AM

Holding the Priesthood does not automatically mean I will attain the Highest Degree of Celestial Glory. If anything, the responsibilities are greater.

~S~, you have ignored the rest of the paragraph. If circumstances don't allow marriage to a worthy partner, you won't be condemmed. You will be judged on your actions and on the intent of your heart. IE what you would do if you had the chance. You will be found someone that is perfect for you.
On the other hand, it doesn't mean you should run out to get married just for that reason.
Live righteously, make the best effort you can, and you will be blessed. God is merciful and does not punish his children for anything that is not their fault.
Also, the TV commercial is not the complete Gospel! It's to get you interested, that is all.

Michelle, if you could guarantee no trolls I would be delighted to continue on the board. But since that won't happen, let's do it via PM. I'll be glad to answer any of your questions.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:47 PM

Considering that the title of the thread is A Question for Mormons, how could it possibly have been talked to death? I have lots of questions! Which of you shall I PM about them if you no longer wish to answer such questions via the board? And why would you only want to answer questions through PMs when information could be shared and learned from?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:53 PM

WS....*points up* my thoughts on that one in particular to add to the other views :)

" Any soul who by nature or circumstance is not afforded the blessing of marriage and parenthood, or who innocently must act alone in rearing children, working to support them, will not be denied in the eternities any blessing—provided they keep the commandments. "

"A man who holds the priesthood does not have an advantage over a woman in qualifying for exaltation. "

Boyd K. Packer " For Time and All Eternity "
October 1993 General Conference, November issue " Ensign ".

Like I said this thread's been talked to death

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

Jesus lives! He is God.. He is the Son of God, He is the Holy Spirit...I believe this...You can knock my belief all you want but you will not shake it!!! Alleluia....Praise the Lord.... know the truth!!!!!!!!
Go on then....try to shake me...try to hurt me and my belief...you Can't.
Best wishes and the LOVE of GOD to all.......Mike,

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM

Anyone can attain Celestial Glory if they know the means.......
Gods love is infinitessimal...Use it or what?
Best wishes,Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:44 PM

Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. HOWEVER circumstances do not always allow them to be married, and as we are also judged by the intents of our heart (IE what we would have done if we had the oppurtunity), all worthy single members will be found a partner.

Celestial marriage, right? Sorry, any way one says it, it's like this: Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. Not quite what is said up front, as (for instance) in the nice TV commercials.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:37 PM

I have no problem with closing this thread as I got my answer long ago on it and it seems that some people are just gonna be jerks about certain issues related to the LDS church and other religions for that matter. If there is anyone who can tell me how to close it, since I started it, I would be more than happy to do so. Best to all. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:57 AM

Yes, too many trolls. More than happy to continue by PM with interested parties.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 10:01 PM

Hm...

If it's all the same I request the thread should be closed. I'd like to end on a positive note before the thread turns into a bickerfest
:( folks have presented all sides of the original subject and I'd say it's been pretty much talked to death

All God's children got wings :)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:40 PM

Ooh, the poor widdle Swedes, denied equal oppurtunities in the wacky, high-paced world of organized crime....

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 03:30 PM

Some points here that need clarification.

First of all, we have never declared that blacks cease to be descendants of Cain, but that the restriction on them holding the Priesthood has been lifted.

Women cannot attain the highest order of celestial glory if they are single. HOWEVER circumstances do not always allow them to be married, and as we are also judged by the intents of our heart (IE what we would have done if we had the oppurtunity), all worthy single members will be found a partner.

Satan was trying to convince Eve that all she had to do to become a god was to eat of this fruit, which had been forbidden to them. The key here is disobedience. You will never attain any form of perfection by disobedience. If you pereserve and try to be perfect, you have the chance to become perfect. If you can do it, you won't be denied the benefits. Quite different to disobeying and trying to gain something by making no effort to achieve it.

The living Prophet recieves revelation that applies to us today. Not all revelations given 3000 years ago are applicable today, because the circumstances are not the same. Some things are not needful for us, some things are very specific to a certain circumstance, some things have been taken from the earth because of iniquity or disobedience. We are left with the things that are essential for our salvation.

We are also counseled to always read the scriptures and the teaching of the prophets, and to pray about things to know if they are true. We do not believe in ignorance whatsoever, and in fact will be held accountable if it was wilful. We also believe in the prophet, and that the moment he ceases to follow the word of the Lord, he will be removed. If you don't believe on the prophet, then why are you a member of the church. We are the wrong place if you re only prepared to believe in part of the truth. If you do believe, then there shouldn't be a problem. You are more than welcome to pray about it however.

We have ALWAYS said that we believe in the Bible ( the Book of Mormon is in ADDITION not as a replacement) and apart from belief in God the Father, belief in Jesus Christ is the most basic principle.

As for the picture of Jesus as a white man, the Middle-Eastern Semitic type may be darker than a northern-European, but it is not THAT dark. Drawing him as a European is artistic licence.

I would really appreciate it if people who wish to troll or spout abuse would not respond to this.

BTW blacks were not the only people enslaved in America. Indians were too, and I think, but can't be sure off-hand, that in the 17th c. there were even instances of whites (like prisoners or indentured servants).

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

If all human blood is the same, how come there are no Swedes in the Mafia? (Archie Bunker)

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Weasel Books
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

"FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU CHALANGE ANY OF MY IDEAS OR IMPUTE THAT I MAY BE WRONG OR SAY THAT MY SHIT STINKS JUST LIKE YOUR'S, I'LL RUN AWAY AND HIDE.
SO THERE!

Since when has Mormonism been a "race"?

PP "

PP, I have no desire to talk to people who can't hold a mature, reasonable conversation and will just spout abuse. No problems with people questioning my beliefs or anything like that.
I didn't say it was a race, should have used a better term, but I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM

Michelle, I understand whole-heartedly where you are coming from. It is strange but I perform on stage at a country opryhouse in Texas, and strangely enough, I am in my element on stage but when the audience wants to come up and hug me, I get unnerved. This also happened at the church I go to now, when I first started going there, but now they have actually learned through me that not all people are comfortable with that, and many of them do not impose on guests like they use to. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

Susu,

   I hope you are not getting the impression that I found ONLY the Mormons to be that way, nor am I trying to say that it is a BAD thing. It just wasn't for me. I am not comfortable around new folks, especially ones who are over-enthusiastic...it feels invasive to me. Had the people of that particular church (or others that I have visited) been more casual in their friendliness instead of seeming in a panic to recruit new members, I might have stuck around to learn more. I'm a curious bug by nature and it is highly likely I would have stayed...for a little while at least. :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM

To Donuel,

Do you honestly believe it is a decent thing to attempt to characterize Utah Mormons as incestuous rapists?

What do you gain by sewing seeds of hatred and intollerance?

--Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: GUEST,RayB
Date: 28 Jan 05 - 11:53 AM

Pogo, you're to be commended for sticking with this lengthy thread. Personally I see a lot of trolls here, and you took them all in stride. I think it says a lot for your character. I know that some of these folks claim to be "innocent bystanders" but from some of the "points" they're making, it's clear they're ringers.

If someone wants to know about LDS doctrines, I suggest they contact the Elders and discuss it with them one on one. All spirituality comes down to personal choices, and personal beliefs, based upon the experiences we each have.

If God was reassembling his restored church in preparation for his return, chances are, if you were on the outside of it, you'd think it was pretty "wacky". That's what the Jews thought of Christ in his own day, that is what the Egyptians thought of Moses and the Hebrew children.

Ultimately, final judgment rests not upon what your neighbor believed, but on what you believed and how true you were to those true beliefs (aka your faith).

Best regards,

--Ray

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

What seperates the "former" Waco Texas Davidians from the church of LDS is an imaginative elegant language of golden plates falling from heaven etc.

and the chasm of time.

PS

Having a family business in Utah and being Mormon gives a whole new meaning to "family business". The arranged inbreeding between cousins keeps the money in the family in a very bizarre Godfather way.

The 60 minutes revelations of a young woman that was raped and abused by her cousin under the sanction of the father of the huge family multi business complex was very revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: susu
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 08:41 PM

Lily, There are alot of churches where the people are "extremely friendly" and that can be unnerving. I personally do not like that either, as I am a private person and I like my space respected. The best thing I can suggest is to make your boundaries known by extending your hand for a handshake, if they still insist on hugging I find it acceptable to mention to them that you are not a touchy-feely person. I am Baptist and that happens in a miriad of churches not just the LDS church, so do not hold that against them, as it may have just been some of the people in that particular ward. It is every Christians duty in my opinion to research any religions who maintain that they are Christians. This would be most enlightening to anyone, as long as you are sincere in your endeavors and you remain open-minded, not confrontational. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: Pogo
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 05:57 PM

[Folks were REAL clingy to anyone new and it freaked all of us out so we never went back]

heh yeah...I don't blame you that would be pretty unnerving. Sometimes folks can go a wee bit over the top with the friendliness O_O

For me personally I try to take a live and let live attitude. If people ask my religion I tell them. If they ask questions I try my best to answer them and give my opinions on them. If they seem very interested by all means I encourage them to talk to any missionaries in the area and go attend a church service and from there decide for themselves. But I don't believe in being pushy, I try not to beat people over the head with my faith and I don't believe in being friends with someone just out of the hopes that they'll convert.

Having said that, Lily I am going on what I have read in the Doctrine and Covenants and my own personal experience.

I've never heard the Prophet and other leaders of the church do anything but praise the single sisters in the church for their faithfulness and for all the good work they do and not because they feel " sorry " for them but because they do have respect for what they do. I've never been told that I won't make it to heaven if I died unmarried tommorrow :) and quite personally I think any guy who marries a girl because he feels sorry for her is missing the point.

It makes sense to me that anyone, male or female, who does all they can to live a worthy and faithful life will be granted the highest blessings that God can offer them and that God will take into due consideration the circumstances of the life that each individual lived while on earth and the desires of the individual's heart.

But truth be told...I'm not an authority on how precisely things are arranged in the afterlife :) as I've never been there.

Polygamy...that's a whole 'nuther can of worms {O) feel free to PM. My favorite view on that " peculiar institution " is from " Around The World In Eighty Days " by Jules Verne when a Mormon races for the train and just barely makes it. That whole chapter is hilarious {O)

" When the Mormon had recovered his breath, Passepartout ventured to ask him politely how many wives he had; for from the manner in which he had decamped, it might be thought he had twenty at least.
'One, sir ' replied the Mormon, raising his arms heavenward, 'one and that was enough! ' "

Subject: RE: BS: A question for Mormons
From: LilyFestre
Date: 27 Jan 05 - 03:39 PM

Pogo,

Are you sure? I've heard and read that the women must be married to enter into the Mormon's understanding of the afterlife. It was explained to me that this is one reason why polygamy (sp?) was allowed. Many men have married older women simply because they felt sorry for them and wanted them to be able to access "heaven" or whatever the Mormons believe in (I was once told that it is believed that each individual gets their own universe upon their departure from this world). I don't know. I went to a Mormon service just once with some travelling young men who visited me and my college roommates...we listened to their beliefs, we asked questions, we shared our beliefs, they asked questions...we went to their church to just see what it was about. Folks were REAL clingy to anyone new and it freaked all of us out so we never went back.

There is an excellent book out called Red Water about the different lives of Mormon women who were all married to the same man. Very interesting reading.

Michelle