Basic Music Theory Question

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: pavane
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 02:48 AM

Gypsy, I didn't want to confuse the issue with modes transposed! Naturally, you can start a Dorian scale on any one of the 12 notes of a chromatic scale.

I also didn't mention the hypo variants. Words like Hypo-Mixolydian are enough to scare away experts, as well as beginners.

BTW, M.Ted, the transposing chart, slide-rule or wheel has been mentioned a few times already in this thread. I agree that you don't need anything else for this job than the ability to write out 2 lists of 8 or 12 (chromatic version) letters.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:50 PM

You can make a simple chord transposer by writing out the notes in the scale you are in; then writing the notes in the key you want to be in under that--(someone mentioned this above, I think)--


G A B   C D E F# G
C D E   F G A   B   C


All of the extras, like minor, or 13b9b5, will stay the same--


Often, especially when you play in a pick-up band, you will have to transpose a song on the spot--especially when you are working with a vocalist--it relatively easy to do if you know that the progression goes from I to VI to II to V, or, in words, Tonic, Submediant, Supertonic, and Dominant---why so much fuss about learning seven little words?

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Gary T
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:17 PM

To transpose chord sequences: move every chord in the song up (or down) the same number of half steps. Change only the letter name (e.g. Eb to C), retain the type of chord (e.g. major, minor, 7th). The basic knowledge needed to do this is knowing the chromatic scale and knowing how to count -- by which I mean you don't have to know about mediant triads or Doric modes to simply transpose chords.

To transpose chords often and more easily, use the number system previously mentioned. For example, the typical "three chord" song in the key of C will have the following chords: C, F, and G (or G7). These are called the I, IV, and V (or V7) chords in the key of C because c, f, & g are notes # 1, 4, & 5 in a C major scale. To transpose to the key of X, use the I, IV, & V chords in the key of X, which are named after notes # 1, 4, & 5 in the key of X. For example, if X is the key of G, the chords would be G, C, and D, because the 1st, 4th, and 5th notes in a G major scale are g, c, and d. To use this system, it really helps to know the major scale in the keys used, and/or the formula for constructing a major scale (it's fairly simple if you know the chromatic scale, the formula, and can count).

Next I would suggest finding a booklet that lists common chord sequences. I see them at almost all music stores. Getting familiar with typical sequences, such as I-IV-V and I-IV-VIm-V, can help a lot with both working out the chords to a song you hear and getting practice transposing.

It's great to be able to play in a number of different keys, but unless you want to master every chord in every key -- a HUGE task -- you'll find the capo helpful. Playing in the key of Db is a whole lot easier when playing "key of C" forms capoed up a half step than when playing "key of Db" forms.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Joy W.
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:41 PM

Guest Jim,

I'm interested in seeing that DIY chord transposer you mentioned.

yours,
Joy

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Gypsy
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 08:29 PM

Er, Dorian is available in alot more than D. Same goes for Aeolian. T'enny rate, to Barbara: I lied. The correct name is: The complete idiots guide to Music Theory, by Michael Miller. Runs about 20$ USD, published 2002. REALLY lucid home course. Highly recommend!

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM

You have to know everything mentioned above to even understand what the Nashville Numbering system is---And if you don't know what 6 is when 1 is Bb, you are out of luck--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:41 PM

One of the hardest things to learn -- and it is really just a question of sitting and listening like forever, unless you are musically talented -- is how chord changes work when you are playing. R. Fielding used to work me over endlessly to hear the changes, and then connect them -- "can you hear the C, C7, F" movement", etc. Eventually I began to be able to hear them, but it was weird -- as soon as I got some theory, it got easier to pick out with my ear what was happening, and I could anticipate what was going to happen next.

An interesting mix of theory and lots of listening.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

...which is why people invent shortcuts like the Nashville Numbering System. It gets people up and running fast without getting bogged down in technical terminology and complicated ideas.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:44 PM

John in Kansas came up with a "where's the best place to go wading at the beach" analogy that I kind of liked--though he thought we were giving unnecessarily complex answers--

My point is simply that the answers get complex because a lot of times when there is a body of water, there is no beach--

In this case, between the land and the water, there is a swamp marsh with a mucky bottom, and all sorts of unforseen problems that come up after you're ankle deep in the water--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:33 PM

I will add the following about the links in my previous post: He makes it all so easy!

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Pauline L
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:24 PM

I recommend some good lessons on chords and the circle of fifths written by a friend of mine.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 12:22 PM

"i don't want to depend on a capo, unless i have to"

Joy - a capo is a wonderful tool that will enhance the sounds you get from your guitar. There's much snobbery about using capos from guitar players who like to show off their skills on the fretboard, but as with all types of show-offs, they miss 3/4 of life's pleasures by operating on a sub-plane. Very sad and mis-guided folk.

The acoustic guitar rings beautifully with chords that include open strings. It's great to be able to play in all keys using Barre chords up to the 10th fret, but not necessary unless maybe you have ambitions to play in a jazz band. Don't look upon placement of a capo merely as a means of changing key, but as a means of getting the best sounds out of your guitar.

Try playing chords in the key of D, with the dropped E bass string down to D, and put your capo, say, on the 5th or 7th frets (therefore playing in Key of G or A) and you'll get the point.

Good Luck - Jim

(If you want a DIY Chord transposer - I built an Excel spreadsheet that does the job reasonably OK. Let me know if you're interested.)

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 07:20 AM

That's the slide rule or wheel again. See previous posts.
It helps if you have TWO octaves rather than one, at least on one of the cards.

Also, you may need to make up one with flats instead of (or as well as) sharps.

Keys are more often specified in flats rather than sharps, where there is a choice.

(Use Bb, not A#, and Eb not D#)

ALSO
One of the main features of the Staff notation is that transposing just shifts all the patterns up or down, but all the shapes, chords etc. stay the same shape. So you can recognise a particular TYPE of chord or inversion of a chord by the shape it has when printed.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Bert
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:23 AM

For transposing, get into a word processor and select a monospaced font.

Then type in the following, twice on the same line.

C | C#| D | D#| E | F | F#| G | G#| A | A#| B |

Copy that line to the line below so that you have two of them.
Check that they are really equally spaced, then print them out (on cardstock if you've got it).

Cut the two lines apart and line up the original key signature note with the desired one. Then you can read off all the new chords.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 11:09 PM

I don't play the guitar, I'm a piano player. I know some theory, but mostly I just read music in front of me and play it.

What I did learn about transposing was pretty easy, and it doesn't involve naming everything along the way. For me, transposing simply means reorienting myself to the place on the keyboard where I want to play, and sticking with the same pattern as is on the sheet music.

Learn the scale. (I can't tell you how to compare the guitar to the piano.) I'm not talking about C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. I'm talking about how the scale is accomplished. There are different types of scales (that gets into theory stuff, so I'll stop here). I found a web site with a "free piano lesson" that does a tidy job of explaining this. It's here. The scale I'm talking about is how it is played, using whole and half notes. A major key is played as whole-whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half. A whole note is from one white note, past a black note, and to the next white note. Two white notes (E-F) count as a half-note. No matter where you put your hands down, in whatever key you happen to end up, if you follow the notes on the page but stick to that whole/half formula, you'll be "transposing." (again, visit that web page, it might help).

If I learned this on a piano with 230 strings, how hard can it be on a guitar with six or twelve?

Good luck!

SRS

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 06:22 PM

Joy,

What you want to learn is 1. be able to write down your tunes.
You need to know your sharps and flats for basic scales. In the meantime you can use the key of C which has no sharps or flats.
2. You need to know time signatures and how to read rhythm.
3. You need to know how to transpose. The best way is to start with chords. Use roman numerals to designate the chords in a song. ie: C major would be I major. F major would be 1V major (based on the fourth note of the C scale) Use three chord songs to practice this. Once you identify the chords in a song with numerals, then transpose it to as many keys as you can. This means you will have to know more scales than the Key of C.
4. Learn to sight-sing music. The best way to do this is to take a melody line and write the position of the note underneath the note on the staff using arabic numbers. Ie:
suppose the notes are C,E,G,F,E,D,C you would write (if you are in the key of C) 1,3,5,4,3,2,1. Practice this exercise in the key of C before going on to sharps and flats. Feel free to post any questions to me on Mudcat.

Sincerely

Frank

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: BB
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM

Gypsy, I thought we might be able to recommend the book you mentioned, but when I put the title into the Bookfinder site, it appears not to be due for publication until October this year! Could you give me more detail on the one you were referring to, please?

TIA
Barbara

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: BB
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:20 PM

If anyone's in the North Devon area on 12th March, we're running a day workshop on this very subject, entitled 'Well, that's the theory, anyway!' It's very much designed for those who know little or nothing about music theory and want or need a basic understanding. It is intended to debunk the mystery surrounding manuscript, musical terms, scales, modes and harmony. PM me if you want more information.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 01:12 AM

Dorian--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:40 PM

Wooooops, that darned "SUBMIT" key snuck up on me again.

    Howie describes the various modes of music, by tuning a plucked dulcimer to each mode,(actually starts playing the scale on a different note) plays the scale in each mode, and then plays the same tune in each of these modes, with comments as to the sort of music that is usually played in this mode, or sounds well in this mode.

    This gives the new person to transposition or harmony a really good idea of what is meant when someone mentions the Doric or other modes.

    Dave

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,NH Dave
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:33 PM

Howie Mitchell had a very nice demonstration of the various modes, as well as actually defining them, in his book on Apalachian or Mountain Dulcimer, that was published and sold by Folk Legacy; Carolyn and Sandy Paton, who hang aroound here now and then. An e-mail to either of them, or Googling "Folk Legacy" will get you to their web site, and you can ask if they have any intentions of releasing this training record or cassette and book, as a CD with the book.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: C-flat
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 12:32 PM

Hi Joy W,
This site has a useful chord-transposition-wheel which you can print off.
Lots of other useful stuff too.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 11:17 AM

...like that line out of the movie Good Will Hunting: "..and then one day you wake up and realize the $150,000 education you got at Harvard you coulda got at the public library for $1.50 in late fees...."

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Pauline L
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 02:17 AM

Does anyone know whether Peter Schickele, aka PDQ Bach, has addressed the issue? If so, I'll bet it's good.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 02:10 AM

Gee, and to think that I wasted all that time studying Music Theory & getting a Music degree when all I needed to do was post a thread to the 'Cat. I'll remember that next time I think I need a college degree.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Pauline L
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 02:07 AM

WYSIWYG, thanks for the link to the permathread on modes. I've started reading it, and it brings a lot of light into the darkness. Thanks also for quoting Stu's "sounds crap" method. That way of finding chords is so simple that I can do it.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:18 PM

Lots of players have gone a lot farther with a lot less knowledge.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM

To get the chords for a song in a new key when you already know the chords in another key.

1. First, you have to know what key you are playing in and what sharps or flats are in the you want to go to. If you don't know these, this page shows you, down at the bottom: http://www.smu.edu/totw/keys.htm

2. Write out the notes for the old key. Underneath that, write out the notes for the new key. For example:

C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G

Like magic, you can look up and down and see what the new chords are. Where the old version has an F chord, the new will have a C chord. Where the old has a C, the new will have a G. B becomes F#.

If there are other elements to the chords, keep them as is. For example, if there is an A minor, it becomes an E minor. B7dim6susp (if there is such a thing) becomes F#7dim6susp.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 04:29 PM

hey,

Associated board of music (ABRSAM). They are the official people. They have this pink book with a treble clef on the front which gives you an overall basic grounding in everything.

mjxx

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: shepherdlass
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 03:49 PM

Transposition is just maths - in fact, not even that: if you can count, you can transpose. All you need is a picture of one octave of a piano keyboard (get someone to write the letter names on if you don't know which note is which). Start on the first note of the tune you want to transpose. Find the note you want to transpose that to. Work out how many notes (white and black) you have to count to get from your original key to the one you're transposing to. Then just count the same number up or down (but always in the same direction - if you first counted downwards, then keep counting down) from all the subsequent notes or chords.

Hope that makes sense - it's far easier to show someone than explain it on a screen.

Jude

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 01:05 PM

Super tonic just means above the tonic--the supertonic is part of the dominant harmony(as opposed to the submediant, which is the relative minor and part of the Tonic harmony)--that is to say, it is related to the G7--in fact, play the two chords together and you'll have a G9--in the key of C--

If you know about this, you'll understand why one set of chords to a particular song has, say, a D minor leading to the G7, while another just has the G7--Also, if you want to play a song in G, and you find the chords in Bb and see "Cm7-5 F11" you won't get all freaky, you'll know that it is just the old SuperTonic to Dominant and you'll play Am C7--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:32 PM

GUEST--Don't particularly want to get into a fight--the easiest way to deal with musicians like you is to just through in a couple of good key changes--as follows--

Play "Blue Skies" for me--Willie's arrangement--Twice through, starting on Cm, then up a half step to Dbm(well, more likely C#minor), and just use open chords--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:26 PM

Thanks M. Ted,

That is what I supposed to be true. Can you explain the names? Super Tonic in stead of just Minor? Any clue as to why this differentiation?

Don

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

Welcome, Joy. Have fun.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 11:52 AM

I believe you can learn plenty of music theory, notably harmonic (chord) theory, without being able to read standard musical notation. And you can learn/know this stuff semi-intuitively ~ for example, you can understand the relationship among the three or four chords used for so many songs, and be able to easily find the appropriate chords in each of several keys, without necessarily knowing the terms "tonic," "dominant," "subdominent," and "relative minor" [also known as "SuperTonic"].

The super-simple explanation offered by GUEST of 10:55 pm last night is good as far as it goes, but omits a critical bit of information. When transposing from one key to another and counting the number of notes' difference between them, you need to count "half-steps" (aka "semitones"). Each half-step is a single fret on the guitar fingerboard, and some-but-not-all of the "natural" (non-sharp-or-flat) notes are a full step (two half-steps) apart. GUEST's message implies that each natural is the same "distance from the next, and that's not quite true.

Between A and B, there's a note called either A# or Bb; BUT
between B and C there is *no* extra note.
There's a note (C#/Db) between C and D, there's a D#/Eb between D and E, but
there's no note between E and F.
The rest of the scale has sharps/flats between the natural notes (F#/Gb, G#/Ab, and, once again, A#/Bb).

If you can picture a piano keyboard and know how to locate "C," you should be able to visualize and understand this. The black keys are in alternating groups of twos and threes, and the pairs of white keys without a black key between them are B-C and E-F.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 11:20 AM

Joy

I can't help you with the answer to your question becuase I need the answer as much as you do (though I am quite happy to use a capo)

But, I think you asked a great question in an intelligent way - most respondents have recognised your good intention in asking it and have responded helpfully. You also show great foresight in saying you will ignore any rude responses because, unfortunately, some respondents can't take a perfectly reasonable question like this at face value and have to resort to being a smart-alec. I mean you Braindrain - just what does your sarcastic reply add to this lady's knowledge? Not much about music theory, that's for sure, but a whole lot about you.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 10:30 AM

A modest proposal--
If you think of the notes as numbers (1-7 in a major scale; 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7 in a minor scale etc. and the chords asm I IV V V7 etc. , than you can dispense with a lot of memorization and a lot of esoteric language.

You do have to learn the intervals in a scale, and he meaning of the little numbers that follow some chord numbers, but you duck the whole transposition confusion.

If you don't like numbers, there's always do re mi, but that system gets awkward rapidly for chords.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Joy
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:42 AM

Lots of great feedback and tips from everyone! JohnInKansas and GUEST, thanks for your posts especially.

Peace,
Joy

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,Tom in S. Dakota
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:37 AM

I have heard both Merle and Willie say (in TV interviews on the country channel), that they both play/played open chords mostly, and don't
read music.

On the same channel on the life of Hank Williams, it was said he too played basic open chords for his songs. They picked up their skills mostly from other people who played guitar (like most people imho.)

Nothing wrong with learning theory if you feel you need it though.

Tom in S. Dakota

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 09:11 AM

Just one, drain. If you use the same approach to mathematics as MTed suggests to music theory, by the time you have enough knowledge to do what you want to do, the IRS will have you in jail for failure to pay taxes for the last 10 years, the lot for your new house will have been bought up by the city for a new strip mall, and your heirs won't get a dime because lawyers will have usurped your estate to pay their fees in trying to divide it up.

And Merle, that enharmonic submediant you play on the third beat of bar 41 is proportionally dissonant to the atonal triad suggested by the melody superimposed over the subtle counterpoint inherent in the next beat. I suggest A7 instead of A. Otherwise, the tune is a smash. Love ya man, and remember, leave no turn left unstoned. All the best, Willie.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 08:45 AM

Someone asks "where's the best place to go wading on this beach?" and they get thrown into a motor launch, hauled twenty miles from shore, and thrown in the water. Then someone puts a foot on their head and pushes them under so "they'll know they need to work real hard."

Helpful...

I would suggest:

If you don't already know how to read music, at least to the point of being able to recognize tunes, I would urge that you spend some time practicing that. Many people get by without it, but it makes it much easier to discuss "more advanced" theory. If you can, it's worth spending some time practicing how to write at least the melody lines for songs you're familiar with.

Learn to recognize the Major Key Signatures when you see them on a score.

Learn the conventional names of chords you use when you play them in the tunes you know now.

Play with as many people as possible, and look for someone who seems to have a good, and helpful, attitude and at least a little more knowledge than you do, and ask questions. The "more knowledge" is probably not too essential, because "studying" with someone of comparable skill can be quite beneficial. Just avoid "idiots with theories" - unless it's obvious they're especially gifted.

Visit a good retail outlet and look for a few books that "make sense" to you. Book stores are seldom productive here. They have lots of "fan books" about musicians but generally not much about music. It's worth spending a little time browsing since sometimes they make an error in stocking.

If one is available, a music store, especially one that trades with music teachers, may be of help. If you're really lucky, a store of this kind may have someone with some teaching experience who can talk to you about what you need and can make recommendations. Even a brief face-to-face can make it a lot easier to make appropriate suggestions.

When you know the common names of the chords you use in your favorite key(s) and have some sense of why those chords are "better" than others, and why they come in particular sequence in common songs, you may want to look for some "theory" about transposing to other keys. Others may disagree, but for learning it sometimes is helpful just to use a capo, and learning how to know where to put it is a good first step toward understanding transpositions.

Each thing you "learn" will lead to new things you want to know. Later, each previously "learned" thing that you "understand better" will lead to slightly different things you want to know. The path may get pretty tangled, but the next step you need will usually be pretty obvious, once you get started.

John

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,braindrain
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 07:19 AM

Along the same Joy-ful strain ...

I need to learn mathematics. Just enough to file my income taxes, draw up blueprints for the new house I'm designing and divide my estate between 17 heirs (some of whom are entitled to much more than others). I don't want to *waste time* learning anything about math except what's absolutely required for these tasks.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 05:51 AM

So, using MTed's info:

Tonic is the first scale step--
Supertonic is the second
Mediant is the third
SubDominant is the fourth
Dominant is the fifth
Submediant is the sixth
Subtonic is the seventh


So in terms of I, IV, and V, that's this:

In the Key of C--the Chords are:

I Tonic:             C major
SuperTonic:    D minor
Mediant;         Eminor
IV SubDominant: F major
V Dominant:       G or G7
SuperTonic:    A minor
SubTonic:       B diminished


Three chord major key songs, are often C-F-G7--which is Tonic Subdominant and Dominant--[I, IV, V]


And by Stu's "sounds crap" method:

Subject: RE: Chord Req: Chord Search Help
From: s&r - PM
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:54 AM

crude way of finding chords that work

1. Find the key (usually the last note, or the one that the tune feels happy to finish on).

2. Play the major chord (I) on that note.

3. Sing the song slowly while playing the chord - when it sounds crap, play the V chord - continue till that sounds crap, and change back to I

4. When both sound crap, try the IV chord

this works crudely for songs that aren't minor or modal. It won't give the best chords but it will give you practice at finding them.

Stu



~S~

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 02:35 AM

But remember, the modes don't follow the same pattern as above.

The main thing to remember about them is if you are playing in the most common modes, you shouldn't use the 7th chord. (The explanation involves some music theory). Just substitute the standard version of the same chord (like G instead of G7)

The most common modes are

Dorian - as used in Scarborough Fair

Aeolian - also know as the 'natural' minor

If you have a tune which uses only the 'white' notes on a piano, but does NOT start or end on C, then it is almost certainly in one of the ('Greek') modes. (In fact, the Major scale is also a mode)

Dorian starts/ends on D
Aeolian starts/ends on A

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 01:16 AM

And Gargoyle, thanks for the kind words---

Pauline--I would consider it, I guess--never occurred to me that it was anything people would want to invest valuable workshop time in--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 05 - 01:08 AM

Tonic is the first scale step--
Supertonic is the second
Mediant is the third
SubDominant is the fourth
Dominant is the fifth
Submediant is the sixth
Subtonic is the seventh

In the Key of C--the Chords are:

Tonic:             C major
SuperTonic:    D minor
Mediant;         Eminor
SubDominant: F major
Dominant:       G or G7
SuperTonic:    A minor
SubTonic:       B diminished


Three chord major key songs, are often C-F-G7--which is Tonic Subdominant and Dominant--

Each of these chords has it's own special function in the key, and the names refer to that--If you've played music for a while, you know about this, even though you may not know these names--

It helps to learn the names though--you pretty much need to know them if you are working with chord substitutions, and, at least with guitar, it helps to know the relationship between the chords in a tune when you are trying to figure out the best place to play it on the neck (I call this "enharmonic transposition")--

As for you, GUEST--if you think what you know would get you by with Merle or Willie, well--both of them could play about anything that came down the pike, and in any key--

Another thing about guitar--there is some stuff that can't be transposed --The Jimmy Reed thing, for instance--

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 11:00 PM

Music theory is actually pretty simple.......i've spent more time trying to do the 'easy'way of doing things, and tab, rather than learning theory. And theory is the simplest way to go. Check out the book "Music Theory for Dummies" You can skip thru, and cherry pick the stuff that you are interested in.....sure helped me alot. For transposition, the very easiest is a good music program......Finale makes one called Print Music. You can transpose, and even change the clef....

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 10:55 PM

Nah...take the zen approach. Do by not doing anything consciously. In the beginning, just let it happen on its own. Start playing and hanging around a few guitar players and they will show you some stuff without you even asking. That's how lots of old time blues players and country pickers learned. Pretty soon you will have gathered enough basic knowledge to begin forming more pointed questions pertinent to what You want to know - not what someone else thinks you ought to know (which they determine for you because it's based only on what THEY know...or based on the fact that they know it and you don't, and they want to impress you with their knowledge)...

As far as that super-tonic ..inter-dominant submediate stuff. I transpose all the time and I have no idea what those terms mean. All you need to know are the first seven letters of the alphabet and how far apart one is from the other.

Let's say you have a song with the chords C, F and G in it. Perhaps you can't sing it with those chords but you like it fine when it starts out in G. The distance between C and G is 5 (C=1 D=2 E=3 F=4 G=5) Move the other chords up 5 as well so that F becomes C (F=1 G=2 A=3 B=4 C=5) and G becomes D (G=1 A=2 B=3 C=4 D=5). Shazaam...you've transposed C, F, and G to G, C and D. You'd probably fit right in with Merle and Willie and Hank Williams, Jr.

Anything more complicated than that and you're probably hanging with the wrong crowd, such as piano players. They like 'flat' songs...stuff in the key of B flat, or A flat, or D flat...it must be something about the way the keys are laid out on a fingerboard. If you're lucky you might get them to play something in the key of F, but that's about as much as you're going to get them to compromise, and that only because it's got a B flat chord in it.

But they'd probably be impressed if you knew the submediant triad in the key of E flat minor....

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:58 PM

For the absolute "easiest" process using a guit-box.... you might start with "slide-guitar" (bottle-neck) and read through the newer and older threads related to the techniques.

No theory, (almost) .... JUST FUN.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=60334#965790

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

If there ain't no pleasure - there is no need continuing.

Subject: RE: Basic Music Theory Question
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Jan 05 - 09:50 PM

G'day Joy W,

Just for the job of transposing chords, there are (welll ... were ... ) things called transposing slide-rules. When I first started playing about with guitar ... and very scanty musical knowledge, a bit over 40 years ago, I made my own (cheating, by setting out the relationships of the main chords for any key from a diagram in the Lomax-edited Penguin American Songbook. This let me select any key and see the relationship of the very chords.

The other side of the slide-rule just had all the chords written out in order (24 chord names, by semitone steps) with the same on the sliding portion (and the relevant chord relationships indicated above the static row. Moving the slider let me put one key against another (say C against G ... ) and I could then read off the transposed chords for anything in the piece I was transposing.

I was rather surprised, some years later, when I saw an almost identical device, but in sturdier plastic ... rather than my cardboard and sticky-tape effort ... being sold by the local (Sydney, Australia) distributor for Music Sales Ltd. He had them made in Sydney - to a design by his son (actually supplying a bit less info than my design ...). I would expect that such a device can still be bought. Making my own taught me a lot more than just buying one ... but something that immediately gives you the chords for another, more comfortable key, will answer you basic request. Would it be better to know all that theory ... well, I think so ... for me ... but ... ?

Regard(les)s,

Bob