Auschwitz and other mass murder

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:02 PM

and then they came for me!
Skipy.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:16 AM

Shambles recommended Roman Polanski's film, The Pianist, which I gladly second. It had a limited release, so the best chance to see it now will be tv/DVD.

But also make every effort to see Hotel Rwanda. It's just been released in the UK, so maybe it's been out in the US for a while now. It has none of the gloss or budget of, for instance, Spielberg's Holywood entertainment, Schindler's List, but you will come away reeling. And if you thought Auschwitz was unique in the annals of human depravity, I guarantee that after seeing Hotel Rwanda you would rethink that perspective.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 10:57 PM

Actually Robomatic, I have been reading and posting to this thread longer than you have. I was referring to the link Donuel provided. Did you read it?

In fact, if you bothered to read any of what I posted you would see that we agree on many points.

Its easy to bad-mouth someone and then run away but it doesn't earn much respect.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM

Indeed.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:44 PM

The story of Auschwitz and the industrical complex that was put together to destroy peoples is now an icon of our understanding. It isn't about any one people, either as perpetrators or as victims. It's a lesson in what the Human Race is capable of, for good or ill. We have proven our capability of rendering hell on earth.

A better summing-up of this thread and the issue would be difficult to find..........

We know we can do better, but like the first ascent of a precipice, the way is not known. We don't know if everyone at the base of the mountain is worth tying a rope to but we have no choice, we have to tie up with someone.

The question is - do we know we can do better? Sometimes I feel that there appears to be little real will to make the attempt to learn from our past mistakes - and to do it better. But as we don't have any choice but to go on - there does seem very little point in knowingly repeating our past mistakes and recreating 'hell on earth'.....

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM

I agree with what you said, robomatic. The Messiah that can save us exists only within ourselves....as the best that we are each capable of.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:16 PM

divan: you seem to be willing to vent without doing any research, i.e. reading the posts in this thread, or a book even.
The US signed a treaty with the USSR restricting just the research you are b*tching about. The US abided by the treaty. The USSR did not. The double standard I perceive here is coming from you. We are now looking at a world made more dangerous both in the nuclear and in the chem bioweapons field due in part to the disintegration of the USSR and the dissemination of raw materials and information to points unknown. A considerable amount of American national treasure is going around the world to buy up weapons grade materials and secure the loyalty of weapons engineers. Where this succeeds it makes us all safer, including your country, your people, your family, and yourself. So a lot of my money is going to make you safer, and I'm okay with that and you don't even have to say thanks.

As far as bioweapons tech goes, you can count on more of this stuff going down. The weapons are capable of being developed anywhere with easily obtainable materials and tools.

Remember that a half-blind Japanese madman was able to establish a world-wide group of followers and develop a nasty gas and attempt to kill a lot of people in downtown Tokyo. We are all living with nightmare scenarios that don't even involve angry Arabs.

We are not off topic, because what controls these nightmare scenarios is our own grasp on sanity. If we are true to our principles and respect ourselves and others as ourselves, we have a chance. Otherwise, all it takes for us to literally dismember ourselves and our society is enough machetes.

If we are bent on making ourselves and our world better and free of superstition, nothing will stop us. If we surrender to fear and dogma, very little will save us.

I personally don't buy into the idea of an EXTERNAL messiah to solve our problems for us. We are the problem. We are the solution. The messiah either is us or will be us.

The story of Auschwitz and the industrical complex that was put together to destroy peoples is now an icon of our understanding. It isn't about any one people, either as perpetrators or as victims. It's a lesson in what the Human Race is capable of, for good or ill. We have proven our capability of rendering hell on earth. We know we can do better, but like the first ascent of a precipice, the way is not known. We don't know if everyone at the base of the mountain is worth tying a rope to but we have no choice, we have to tie up with someone.

Have a great time, have a great weekend. I'm done with this thread.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:41 AM

Talk about weapons of mass destruction!!!

Quite frankly I am sick of the U.S. thinking they are entitled to develop biological weapons and space weapons but have the nerve to invade countries that they think are doing the same thing. Talk about a double standard!

Nobody should be allowed to pump money into destruction when people are starving! This is insane!

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 11:48 PM

Boy, I don't really even want to think about the bio-war thing too much. Creepy! I suspect it would have a way of getting out of control and screwing up the expectations of the perpetrators pretty quickly. Poison gas often did that in WWI, when the wind changed.

I'm glad I don't think that this physical life is "all there is" or this sort of thing would really depress me.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:16 PM

bio "defense" explosion

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4309315.stm

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:58 AM

Don'l:
You've actually said something with a modicum of sense behind it! (Was it a random event?) As usual, I suspect that your 'specific' count of how many research facilities and where things are are pulled out of your posterior, but the basic idea of bioweaponry capabilities is quite real. The Soviet Union in violation of bioweapons treaties with the US, came up with some really creepy stuff that is way worse than weaponized anthrax.

Have you read Tom Clancy's "Rainbow Six"? It puts a thriller aspect to the subject much as you put a cartoonish aspect to it. He has a group of "killer greenies" who decide to reduce the planet's human population by about 99.9% and of course, after they do that they don't need to be greenies no more.

I DOUBT that technology can come up with race specific weapons because of the extreme variability within races (and there are respectable folk who believe of course that 'race' has no scientific meaning).

But you can probably target a sub-species. And if you have a sample of a person's DNA, you can probably in future develop a poison that will shut down that DNA, in other words you'll be able to come up with a poison, put it in the reservoir, and kill one selected person.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:55 AM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/biowar.jpg

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM

I am convinced the next holocaust will be in the form of a bio war event.

The holy grail in the bio war lab enviorment is a race specific killer virus. SARS was suspected of be such a virulent varient.

During the cold war the USSR had 20 tons of small pox virus to use as a follow up to nuclear weapons. Today research is concentrating on retro and flu virus in the US and China.

Extreme FEMA regulations have been in place for 10 years regarding a pandemic. The threat of a biowar event is not strange or far out.
To speculate as to who will initiate it intentionally or by accident is not the issue. To wonder why several dozen highly respected bio war scientists have been murdered in the last several years brings up more unworthwhile debate.

Nothing makes me sadder to admit that the issue of population control by man made viri is a very real one. There is currently a huge proliferation of class 4 bio weapon labs sprouting up through out the country. We have 5 within a half hour drive from our house a 6th brand new one nearly completed on Rockville Pike.

I have cartooned the issue many times over the last 4 years and there still seems to be a profound disbelief in the whole issue.

By international treaty, most of the bio war research done in the US is of course illegal and has been so since the Nixon years.

Can anyone think of a more effective albeit cowardly weapon that does not destroy real estate but culls a selected population?

It is grimly preferable to neutron bombs in that respect.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 08:47 AM

I entirely agree, Eagle Wing, that the Israelis are entitled to defend their home ground, meaning "within the 1948 borders of Israel".

You are correct that the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel in 1948. True enough. You do not mention, however, that the new state of Israel had been carved out in the previous 3 years by acts of violence and terrorism on the part of European Jews (Ashkenazim) who had come into that area from outside with the intention of taking over a piece of land they had never lived on in their lives before! Would that not seem illegitimate to the local people and the surrounding Muslim populations, and why would they not take up arms and resist it? Anyone would, under the same circumstance.

You cannot justify an invasion of a foreign land by quoting passages from a 2,600 or 3,000 year-old holy book...unless you're just plain crazy.

What if the Arabs had gone to Holland or some place and tried to pull off such a move? What do you think would happen? It's just beyond imagination, really. Only an extraordinary horror like the Nazi Holocaust could have resulted in the World allowing such a situation to develop in the first place. People were not behaving rationally. Local Jews and Muslims in the Middle East, after all, had been getting along fine for a long time before the Ashkenazim came in and decided to create "Israel" out of thin air.

(Since they did succeed in creating it, however, I believe they should be allowed to maintain it now, and protect themselves.)

The Yom Kippur War was the inevitable Egyptian and Syrian response to the Six-Day War, and of course it was carried out on that day. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour on a Sunday for the same reason...the element of surprise. In the Six-Day War the Israelis achieved total surprise in their initial air attacks, and that allowed them to wipe out the Egyptian air force at almost no loss to themselves and win an easy victory. The lesson was not lost on the Egyptians...but they DID lose a whole bunch of land. The Yom Kippur War was launched to regain that land...and partially succeeded. It could theoretically have resulted in the destruction of Israel as well, but did not, for at least 3 reasons:

1. the USA airlifed supplies to the Israelis, allowing them to replace their initial losses of equipment, particularly tanks.

2. the Israelis, being a very elite force, responded quickly to the changing situation and eventually turned the tables

3. the Arabs did not have a way of quickly replacing their lost equipment that could match the USA's help for Israel

Once you decide to fight such a war..against a more sophisticated opponent...you absolutely MUST achieve surprise. Anwar Sadat went to a great deal of troube to do that, and it resulted in the Egyptians regaining Sinai and reaching a peace accord with Israel, so from the point of view of both Israel and Egypt, it had a fairly good result, I'd say, in the long run.

In any case, my impression is that Sadat launched the war to regain Egpytian and Syrian territory lost in the Six-Day War, not to destroy Israel...but I may be wrong about that. I'm sure the Syrians would have gladly destroyed Israel if the opportunity presented itself.

As for God being on anyone's side...well, I don't actually think God takes sides. I think God is on everyone's side, in that they are constantly provided with life and consciousness and being and all that goes with it. God is like the sun. It doesn't shine on some people and withhold itself from others on same basis of favoritism...it shines indiscriminately in all directions all the time. That is Love, not favoritism. (But I don't think you were being serious, were you?)

I admire the Isrealis' military expertise and their intelligence and efficiency. I do not admire their general aggressive policy...nor do I admire the general aggressive policy of those who wish to destroy them.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 06:09 AM

"Equivalence" is not a verb, robomatic, it's a noun. Look it up in the dictionary. I am not "equivalencing". It's not possible to do that. It would be like impotencing or continuancing. Just doesn't work. :-)

Recognising the smiley, I still think it's a red herring to introduce semantics especially in a language that is shared by so many peoples. I simply assumed, when I saw that particular use of the word, that it was just another difference between American and Real English [insert smiley before thousands of US citizens attack me].

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:55 AM

"I remember, way back in the late 60's, when I had no real opinion of any sort about Israel, and the 6-day war happened. Everyone was very impressed how "little Israel" so utterly defeated the larger Arab forces around it. I was impressed. I thought, "Boy, that's a plucky little outfit, that Israel!" I started collecting their stamps, because the whole thing got me interested."

Have you also read about the Yom Kippur war when that same "little Israel" was attacked by it's surrounding nations on the one day in the year when they felt that no-one would attack - the most holy "day of atonement"? They were unprepared for this attack yet they still managed eventually to win. I'd almost have to agree with Martin that they were the chosen people - or at least that God was on their side if only during this unprovoked and cowardly attempt to destroy them as a nation.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:45 AM

Little Hawk says "I'm suggesting that the Israelis, ever since World War II, have been getting even with the Nazis by fighting with Muslims."

Actually it was the Muslim nations that surround Israel that declared war on the new born Israel NOT the other way around. (I am not sure but I believe that not all of those states have rescinded that declaration of war which was intended to wipe out the state of Israel).
We constantly hear on UK news programs that Palestinian or other Muslim terrorists have blown up a bus carrying Israeli school children or some similar act. This is stated but there is little judgement about it. The following day the Israeli soldiers attack a "terrorist stronghold" and some civilians get killed too. There is international horror and prime-ministers and presidents get hot under the collar and accuse the Israelis of attrocity. Seems to me that we sometimes do find ourselves a little one-sided in our judgements.
Muslim leaders are regularly assuring us that theirs is a religion of peace. During the first Gulf War I taught a class that was about 80% Muslim. They confided in me that they were being taught to hate Jews - and that this teaching was given at the mosque.
Your statement about the Jews getting their own back by fighting Muslims seems rather strange to me.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:32 AM

Robomatic says:
"But the forgiveness is not ours to give."

I appreciate what you are saying, Robomatic, but I have to disagree, for if the present generation cannot forgive the actions of past generations then the hatred will go on forever as has the hatred between Arab and Jew from the time of Ishmael.

The generation that experienced the Holocaust are passing on. If their descendants will not forgive, then they will engender more hatred and perhaps (though God forbid) a future holocaust.

It should never be forgotten - but it must be forgiven.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:20 AM

"I support people who fight against a foreign invading force, period."

But, LH, are you not forgetting that, from the day Israel was declared a nation, the surrounding nations declared war on Israel and that there have been several occasions when the surrounding nations have attacked in great force. Are not Israel entitled to defend themselves against that as well as against the constant attacks by terrorists from Palestine?

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:02 AM

M.TED said "I am especially alarmed when I read, "Unless you have the tattoo, I suggest you shut up about the Holocaust experience, because you never experienced it"--it is a particularly aggressive effort to suppress the Holocaust, and even has a bit of implied threat built into it--"

I agree in principle, but I think you have to put that quote in the context of answering a person who calls everybody who is not a Jew, anti-semitic, neonazi etc. and who actually seems to have racial theories of his own as rabid as those he claims to oppose.

Frank L

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:32 AM

On 28.1.05 an unnamed GUEST said:
"How many Christians had the Jews killed through usery, starvation, and servitude?"

I don't know about elsewhere but my understanding of my own country's history is that Jews were forced into the usery business by English laws in Meieval times which limited the number of trades they could be involved in.

As a Christian, I think the above statement is about as anti-semitic as you can get.

I'd need some evidence about Jews starving or enslaving Christians (even in the first century AD).

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: EagleWing
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:25 AM

On 28 jan Mr Gibson said:
"Anti-semitism is at an all-time high on Mudcat at this time and I am sure many of you have noticed this."

Having read some of your recent posts, it seems to me that you actually and actively court anti-semitism. Anybody who dares to disagree with you, Martin, is cursed and insulted and called anti-semtic and neonazi with no regard to what the person has said or claimed.

I, personally, cannot think of anything more basically evil than the Nazi "solution" of Auschwitz and it's like. The haulocaust seems to me about the most evil act of modern times. But your insults towards anyone who thinks that other mass-murders also matter do not help non-jews to sympathise with your point of view.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:09 AM

Before you can forgive - or expect anyone else to forgive - it is probably a necessary part of the process to first cease sitting in judgement.

A good start would be to just respond or not to the views of others that add to this debate here - rather than feeling judging the worth of the posters (from their posts) was the object.

But in truth there has been very little of folk posting here - saying that things are black or white or seeing it as good guys v bad guys.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:57 AM

Yeah...it's wearing itself out all right, Gargoyle. Sheer, mind-numbing, paranoid obsession with one's own problems to the exclusion of all other people's problems can wear out anyone's credibility eventually.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:51 AM

"Equivalence" is not a verb, robomatic, it's a noun. Look it up in the dictionary. I am not "equivalencing". It's not possible to do that. It would be like impotencing or continuancing. Just doesn't work. :-)

And I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about whether my list is a list of equal things or not. I say it's not. It's a list of rather similar things (in basic intent), but not equal things in either content, result or dimension. Nothing in nature is equal to anything else, in my experience, but all things may share certain qualities in common. Recognizing which things are in common and which not is what allows us to make value judgements.

Zealots and fanatics always insist on seeing actions (and other people) in black and white terms. "the good guys and the bad guys" It's not a good way to go. It leads to absolutism, narcissism, and unresolvable disputes. To say that that leads to the conclusion that everything is equal is so patently ridiculous that I don't know why I should even have to point it out.

Try not thinking in polar opposites for a change, and then we won't disagree so much.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:44 AM

A FRANK THANK YOU Mr. Parks!!!!

You point is well taken within a forum that all too frequently turns is myopic gaze upon their special interest group...or their special atrocity, or their special purge.

Man's in humanity has spanned centuries. Fortunately the "Jewish Agenda" is appearing to wearing itself out....and a broader view may advance.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:37 AM

it's a simple use of one word for another LH. You are making your own point and defining your own terms. Your list is a hodgepodge ofr many different events at different times. And you are indeed rendering them all equivalent. Saying it's all gray. It simply ain't that way. We've had this same discussion at least once before. You are off on your own hobby. And your are way off topic unless you are proposing to equivalence genocide again.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:37 PM

Well, there is very little risk of that ocurring, John... :-)

But, hey! I've seen worse looking bodies than mine out there! And you haven't seen William Shatner undressed...

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:43 PM

If I saw you unclothed, LH, I'd ask you to drink hemlock too! :^)

...I'd say please though. I wouldn't want to come across as, you know, a terrorist.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

And who exactly is "Bill"? Not Shatner, I hope.

What baffles me is how anyone could NOT think of war as terrorism. It is mega-terrorism, because its literal intent is to terrify other people enough to make them submit to another's will...or just to destroy them, period, and take their land and possessions.

I'll give you some notable examples of terrorism in history:

1. the Japanese rape of Nanking and their general behaviour in their invasion of China
2. the British armies expulsion of the Acadians in order to grab their fertile lands
3. George Washington's destruction of Iroquois villages and orchards
4. Iroquois massacres of the Hurons
5. Apache massacres of white settlers
6. US Army destruction of the Apaches' way of life
7. USA bombing in Southeast Asia
8. USA atomic bombings of Japan
9. Hitler's bombings of such cities as Belgrade, Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, and Stalingrad, among others.
10. The RAF's bombing of German cities such as Hamburg, Dresden, and many others.
11. The USAAF's firebombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities
12. Saddam's attacks on Kurds, Shiites, and Iranians
13. Turkish attacks on Armenians and Kurds
14. Sherman's march through Georgia

And so on, and so on...all of it intended to terrorize and destroy...all of it strutting around under the false mask of legitimacy called "War". War is for the big guys...who call the little guys "terrorists" because the little guys can't afford to do things on a big enough scale to be allowed into the big guys' exclusive professional club: "Murder Incorporated"

To call it war and think that war is different from terrorism is to believe that a euphemism, a mere word, can sanctify an act of premeditated murder.

I am a philosopher, robomatic, I am not a mute acceptor of my society's convenient mythologies. If I were living in classical Athens, they would probably force me to drink hemlock, just like they did Socrates...because most people don't like seeing the truth unclothed. It would require them to rethink a whole lot of their standard learned behaviours.

Now, what among your points have I not given proper consideration to?

Do you deny that Israelis have progressively encroached on other people's land through settlement? (I am talking about outside the 1948 borders of Israel...I accept the legitimacy of those borders.)

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:48 PM

LH I think you are repeating yourself and not giving enough thought to some of the messages written by others, hence to some extent you are making it not so worthwhile to exchange ideas since you are more of a broadcaster and less an exchanger here, kinda like that O'Reilly guy.

Oh, and your equivalence: war AS terrorism is you again using your definitions to make your points rather than willingness to use the dictionary terms we all know and love. Again kinda like Bill.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:27 AM

I regard war AS terrorism, BB. It's terrorism on a much larger and better organized scale. In fact, war is the ULTIMATE terrorism. That makes George Bush the World's number one terrorist commander at the present.

In World War II, Hitler was the World's number one terrorist commander. I expect history will judge them in a somewhat similar fashion when the dust settles after the misnamed "War on Terrorism"...although I think Hitler was probably a bit crazier than Bush. I'm not sure, though.

Can you guys try to give up this word "equivalence" for a bit? I'm not trying to equivalence anything. I'm trying to draw parallels between various things. There's a difference. I'm not saying things are EQUAL to one another in degree, I'm saying they bear some notable similarities in certain ways. None of them are EQUAL, because they are all different and unique.

Thus, no, I am not trying to equivalence Israel and Nazi Germany...there are many differences between them...but I am pointing out that victims of historical persecution often morph into the new persecutors of someone else. It has happened over and over again in history.

Look, if you bring your kids up with a constant sense of paranoia ("lots of people out there hate us") and persecution ("we have been attacked over and over again and can expect to be attacked again by those evil people who hate us") and you keep hammering that into them as they grow up...then your kids grow up with a chip on their shoulders, and they become hypersensitive to criticism and they see enemies where enemies may not even exist.

That has happened with black kids in the USA since the 60's. It's not a pretty situation. It has turned victims of racism INTO racists themselves, in many cases! It has happened with some Native Americans too, and I know, cos I've hung out with them for years. The same bloody-minded sense of "all those damn whites are out to get me, and I know it". It doesn't help anyone. It has happened with much of the Jewish community since WWII, and it's not one bit healthy or helpful to them or anyone else. AND...it has happened to Muslims since the creation of Israel.

It's what happens with people who are incapable of forgiving or coming to terms with the past. In their constant zeal to avenge the past, they become just like the people they regarded as their worst enemies.

Vengeance is the path of a fool, bent upon self-destruction and the destruction of others, most of whom will prove to have been basically innocent bystanders.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:49 AM

LH,

"How would you feel about the Arabs sending well-trained agent assassins in civilian clothes (they'd have to be) to kill off Israeli leaders and officers who give attack orders that result in the death of Arabs or the loss of Palestinian homes and lives?"

That would be acts of war, not terrorism. It is too bad that WE do NOT target the leaders who cause the problems, as that would reduce the lives lost by quite a few. If we had just assasinated Saddam....


"They don't have the means to, so they strike elsewhere instead."

The "they" you are referring to here are terrorists. If a suicide bomb goes off in Israel, the Israelis target the leader who sent it, or the family home (NOT the people). Israel does NOT just randomely blow up any group of Palestinians. THAT is what you seem to be ignoring.

The houses being bulldozed are, for the most part, the ones where rockets have been fired from, or tunnel have been found. Is the destruction of THOSE houses legitimate self-defense?

I do not claim that Israel is perfect, or has been able to surpress human emotions. But Israel has prosecuted the mis-use of force, while ( in the recent past) Palistinians have celebrated and rewarded it.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 07:38 AM

Actually LH you were equivalencing the Israelis with the Nazis to which I responded and you have not re-responded.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:57 PM

It's debatable, I guess. How would you feel about the Arabs sending well-trained agent assassins in civilian clothes (they'd have to be) to kill off Israeli leaders and officers who give attack orders that result in the death of Arabs or the loss of Palestinian homes and lives?

And I'm sure they've tried... :-) (and occasionally succeeded)

I don't believe for a minute that Israeli attacks are not launched in a spirit of hatred...but I feel your point is to some extent worth considering, as far as it goes. It has its merits.

I just see that you are still trying to divide the conflict into "good guys" and "bad guys". I don't see it that way. I see 2 sets of people who lack the goodwill to try to work things out peacefully.

The Arab fighter is attacking out of hatred, unquestionably. But in his own mind, he is attacking in defence of some martyrs (as he sees it) among his own people. You cannot eliminate that perception by knocking off the latest leader of Hamas. They will just appoint a new leader. And so it goes. They thrive on martyrdom.

The USA sent all kinds of special forces people around in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. One of their jobs was to assassinate any politician or officer who was considered a notable asset to the Viet Cong or the NVA...even if he was in Cambodia or Laos at the time. They did it with high-powered rifles and bombs mostly. Every person they killed gave the Vietnamese one more reason to keep fighting until the Americans were driven out. And they did. This kind of thing just doesn't work. It doesn't work for Israel, and it doesn't work for the Arabs either. It just keeps the pot boiling.

But, if you were a commander in the Israeli forces, then naturally you would continue targeting those particular guys you mention...until you got the order not to. That would just be doing your job. And if you were a Hamas fighter...same deal. They all figure they are doing their duty. They would nail Sharon with a rocket if they had the means to. No doubt about it. They don't have the means to, so they strike elsewhere instead.

Guerrilla war always results in dirty tactics. It is the nature of the beast.

Anyway, Mr Bush has managed to kill more people in a year than Hamas or Islamic Jihad ever will, I suspect. And he did it with high tech stuff, not suicide bombers. At the end of the day, what difference does it make to the ones who die or those who survive them?

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:19 PM

You miss the point- the suicide attacker is attacking out of hate, and kills innocent civilians intentionally.
The rocket into the car of a terrorist leader is to remove that person from being able to attack, thus it is defensive- NO hate is needed, just good information. You have stated that defense is allowable- yet you criticise the Israelis for it.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 11:13 PM

I don't "eqivalence" (as you put it) any one particular violent act with another violent act.

I say that the way to break the cycle of violence is to stop attacking and stop retaliating. I do not say "stop defending".

There are many ways of attacking people. One is with a bomb. Another is with a gun, a tank, a rocket or an airplane. Another is by attacking them economically or legally in some way that worsens their lives and marginalizes them. Another is by spreading malicious talk about them and raising hatred against them. Another is by bulldozing down their houses.

The reason the Arabs attack with concealed bombs is because the Israelis have military supremacy. In such a situation, the Arab will attack in a clandestine manner, the Israeli will attack in an open and obvious manner. That's always the way it goes. The weak attack from the shadows, the strong come down main street in a tank or an airplane. Each uses the method that works best for him in order to do some significant damage to the one he thinks is the "enemy".

I am not interested in trying to decide whose way of attacking is nicer or nastier and lining them up on a comparative "evil" scale...in order to determine who the "good guys" are. The end result is the same in both cases. Many innocent people suffer and die. The real good guys are the people who leave other people alone to live in peace.

I am recommending breaking the cycle of vengeance. I would recommend the same thing in Ireland or Cyprus or Chechenya or the Balkans or in any other place where there has been a long history of hatred between communities.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

How is it hate to target the specific person who planned, and continues to plan, those suicide bombers? Isn't it just self-defense?

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:27 PM

LH,

So, you equivilence Israel targeting a terrorist leader, and killing civilians that are around him, with the intentional targeting of non-combatent civilians by suicide bombers?

I agree that it would be best for all sides to stop killing each other- But how can one side do so if the other uses that as a chance to inflict even more killing?

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM

I trust you are right about that ROE, Guest. If you are, then what I suggest is exactly what Iraqis should do, without delay. Non-violent resistance en masse. But I don't think they are aware enough or confident enough to get it together to do that.

I was suggesting that some American units (or individual soldiers) might panic if that happened and break the ROE. Such things happened in India now and then with the British, and it only hastened their exit as a colonial power.

You said: "In a "perfect " world, we all could let the misguided blow up whomever they like, and forgive them. I would rather stop them, and prevent the loss of innocent lives. "

No. That's not what I am suggesting. I suggested forgiveness, I did not suggest refusing to defend oneself and uphold civil laws! One must be able to take forceful action to prevent any such violent and unlawful behaviour wherever it arises. That is job 1. Job 2 is to forgive, and not hold lasting grudges.

It's simple. If a suicide bomber tries to blow up people, you prevent him by any means possible. That involves police, intelligence agents, and military safeguards. If he succeeds anyway, you do NOT use it as an excuse to go roaring off and viciously attack some other people who happen belong to HIS tribe or culture. Israel has traditionally responded to every terrorist attack with a retaliatory attack, and it often kills civilians. They have no conception of forgiveness. The Muslim zealots also have traditionally responded to every Israeli attack with a retaliatory attack. They likewise have no conception of forgiveness. And THAT is why they are both going down a long road of disaster together, like two cats with their tails tied together...

If either one of them were to learn forgiveness and sincerely practice it...for a year...the vicious cycle of violence and counter-violence would be broken.

I have NEVER suggested passively standing by and doing nothing to stop an attack by a suicide bomber or by anyone else. Never. Everyone is fully entitled to resist an attack or an invasion of their land by whatever means necessary. That is not lack of forgiveness...it's just plain common sense self-defence. You don't have to hate people to defend yourself. Lack of forgiveness occurs when the attack is used to justify your own future attack on some other people somewhere else, and the carrying on of a vendetta.

Again, you are putting thoughts in my head that were never there in order to score an illusory point. Nope. I am not telling you to stand helplessly by and let people kill other people. No way. I'm just telling you not to nurse hatreds.

Sorry. No cigar.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:31 PM

LH,

The ROE for our forces in Iraq would indicate that, if they are NOT fired upon, they would not fire back. IE, if the "insurgents" stop attacking the US troops, there would be no deaths, and we would leave. Since they do not, I have to presume that the ones fighting want a US presence there in order to give them an excuse to murder innocents.

I do not judge Iraqis, Iranians, or Palestinians as any less worthy of life than any other group- I DO judge that those who commit acts of violence against innocent people should be routed out and destroyed, if only to protect the greater good.

In a "perfect " world, we all could let the misguided blow up whomever they like, and forgive them. I would rather stop them, and prevent the loss of innocent lives.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:24 PM

No...I wasn't suggesting equality of suffering in that case BB...I was simply pointing out that many have suffered. I would not dream of suggesting that the internment of Japanese immigrants in North America was an equivalent level of suffering to what the Jews suffered in the Holocaust. Would not DREAM of it. Okay? Don't put such notions in your head, just to score illusory debating points...

We probably ARE all members of some group that once persecuted another group...yes. Which is to say: we are all human. And that is what should unite us, not divide us.

I'm not particularly interested in comparing various people to Hitler and trying to decide where they stand on the "evil" scale. It's not helpful. I don't look upon people as evil, I look upon them as frightened, angry, desperate, in pain, and suffering from mental delusions. Because of that, they may commit destructive acts, and you can call those acts "evil" if you so desire, but you do so mainly because you want to nurse some sort of hatred and thereby justify your own retaliation on someone.

I recommend forgiveness for past grievances, attention to fairly resolving present ones, and an end to violent retaliation by all parties. I also recommend not taking anyone else's land by force, whoever they are. Not with a gun, and not with a bulldozer either, and not with money, and not with a court order or some fancy legal maneuver.

If the Iraqis had spiritual leaders of high enough awareness right now, they could get the Americans out of their country in a year with completely non-violent resistance and non-cooperation on the part of many millions of citizens...the way Gandhi got the British out. Some Iraqi lives would almost certainly be lost by that method, as the Americans responded to it in an uncertain and confused fashion...but not many. The occupying forces would be shamed into leaving.

Unfortunately, Iraqis do not have such leaders to inspire such a movement. Because of that, there will be lengthy bloodshed, and many innocent on both sides will suffer and die. Why? Because they have chosen judgement and condemnation of the other, rather than Love of humanity as a motivator. Judgement and condemnation leads to violence and death.

Judgement and condemnation. It's the credo of the Old Testament. I do not care much at all for the Old Testament and its notions of a wrathful God. I regard such a concept of God to be insane and completely untrue.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

LH,

"There are many more who do not appreciate what happened to the Gypsies, the Armenians, the Kurds, the various Christian sects wiped out by the Church of Rome, the "witches" and other people killed by the Inquisition, the Japanese interned in North America in WWII, the Tibetans, the Cherokees, the Nez Perce, the Iroquois, the Beothuks, the Acadians, the Palestinians, the Poles, and a hundred other unfortunate nations or groups all over the place who have been massacred by other people at various times in history"


Gypsies, the Armenians, the Kurds, the various Christian sects wiped out by the Church of Rome I will give you suffered as greatly as the Jews, if not in quite the systematic, industrialized fashion. I fail, though, to see how you can equivalence the internment of the Japanese, as bad as it was, to those dedicated attempts to destroy and entire group.

Human history is full of massacres- but the number of genocidal efforts to destroy rather than control a large group are far fewer, and stand out as different.

I see now how you can set as equal the kidnapping and execution of an innocent civilian and the internment of suspected enemy combatents, the suicide bomber going into a children's birthday party and the use of a rocket to kill a terrorist leader.

By the standards you have set, there is no difference between Hitler and anyone else. We are ALL members of some group that at some time unfairly inflicted some suffering on some other group.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

LH:

Very interesting post, LH. In the days leading up to the Six Day War, I remember a profound sense of isolation. Somewhere along the line I picked up a story sort of relvant and at-odds with your viewpoint, and I don't know how to check up on it. But what I picked up was that Israel had all their men at arms in this period, and were asked NOT to respond yet by President Johnson (this in the period where UN GenSec U Thant pulled UN troops from the Sinai at the request of Gamal Abdul Nasser, the Egyptian dictator who was fomenting the whole thing. The Israelis were citizen soldiers, so while they were standing at arms, the crops weren't being harvested.

Again, I think you are up front and I have no question of your motives, but making a significant error in forcing the comparison between German methods and German aims of the war. German military methods such as blitzkrieg are just that, significant 'improvements' in methods of warfare. Intelligent armed forces have been paying attention to such items since before the Egyptians sent an army of bronze swordsmen against an army of iron swordsmen (Hittites?) (The Egyptians learned two lessons from this encounter: Go over to iron and lie about who won).

Y'know, if Hitler said two and two are four, that don't make it wrong.

I was never raised to believe that Arabs are less than human. If that were Israeli policy, as you are comparing it with Nazi German policy, and if the Israelis were as efficient as you seem to think, then there woudln't be a Palestinian problem. The very essence of the difference is the Israeli policy of bulldozing homes. It is a crushing blow to a family that produced an accused terrorist or killer, but it is NOT the Nazi German response, which would have been to kill ten people for every victim (Or, in the case of the assadination of Heydrich, the utter destruction of one town from people to pilaster).

Contrast that with the habit of Palestinians burning their own people in public who were accused of being collaborators (without trial).

I remember 1973, where the Israelis were caught by surprise by an attack on the Holiest Day of the Jewish calendar. They did not come off as expert stromtroopers to those who were paying attention.

How about 1976, when Arab terrorists commandeered a jet plane, flew it to Uganda, and in league with one of the bloodiest dictators of the era isolated out the Jewish passengers and held them hostage? Do you remember what the French pilot said when he heard the sound of gunfire? "I knew the Israelis had arrived."

"How did you know they were Israelis?"

"Mais qui d'autre?" (Who else?)

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:40 PM

I think you are partially right about the other Arabs using the Palestinians in that cynical fashion, robomatic. Agreed.

However, regarding the Israeli government, I think its behaviour and psychology from its inception has been strikingly similar to that of Nazi Germany...but without the specific matter of the death camps, that's all. Such death camps would not have been politically feasible in that time and place after WWII. The key difference has been that Israel is only a small regional power on a very small area of land, rather than a world power like Germany was in the 30's and 40's...

The Israelis have an elitist view of their own special mission in the World, their own special status, their own special historical grievances, their own superior culture and identity, their own special religious status. I find all that very similar to Naziism in its zealotry and intent, but under a different set of outer labels, that's all. It's extreme elitism. It's narcissistic. It's extremism justified by a sense of prior martyrdom...and that's precisely what the Nazis were.

Those same attitudes can be seen likewise in Islamic fundamentalists and suicide bombers. Such people feel justified in being very cruel and merciless to their perceived "enemies", because they have a sense of martyrdom fueling their anger.

The Israelis are also masters of an absolutely elite blitzkrieg-style armed forces, which wins wars by superior weaponry and sudden, unexpected attacks by elite air and ground units.

That again, is just like the Nazis...who won military victories in the same fashion as Israel does...by using fast-moving, highly-trained forces to launch crippling air strikes and armoured breakthroughs. The Nazis, like the Israelis, were very enamoured of the glories of military supremacy, and sought it in every way possible. Like the Israelis, they were often able to defeat far great numbers of enemy forces in the field, through using modern blitzkrieg tactics.

There are so many similarities. It would not be the first time that a victim of a violent abuser has grown up to become a violent abuser himself, would it? If you automatically think of the Israelis only as "good guys", however...or only as "victims", then I can understand that you don't see that connection the way I do.

I remember, way back in the late 60's, when I had no real opinion of any sort about Israel, and the 6-day war happened. Everyone was very impressed how "little Israel" so utterly defeated the larger Arab forces around it. I was impressed. I thought, "Boy, that's a plucky little outfit, that Israel!" I started collecting their stamps, because the whole thing got me interested.

By about 1973, I had begun to see it in a very different way. I had begun to see that an apparently small, yet elite force can easily become a very powerful bully-boy...as England did, for example, when they pretty much dominated the World for a couple of hundred years by having an elite Navy. Size can be misleading. I don't really care much for bully-boys, although one can't help but admire good fighting ability for its own sake.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:12 PM

Don'l: I'm privileged to be associated in your mind with Little Big Man in any context, it's one of my favorite books. The sequel didn't suck, either.

LH: I disagree with your psych evaluation of the Israelis using the Palestinians as a bunching bag with a Nazi head pasted on the top. That is flat out inaccurate, i.e. wrong. The Palestinians have been trying to make the Israelis into Nazis, but at the same time they have not stinted from using Nazi and holocaust denial propaganda where they could. I witnessed this in Alaska. I think the Palestinians have been callously used by the surrounding Arab states as a bully boy, a minion to push into the contest and then avenge onself over. The principle is well known from playground to bars to nation states.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 02:34 PM

Those who watched the allied bombers flying over their death camps - without bombing the shit out of the camps or the railway lines that fed them - would have thought that the world had forgotten them. They were most probably right. Through hearing to stories of those few that did survive - the outside world has slowly become to appreciate the human reality behind the statistics. A relity that transcended religous and cultural boundaries. Those survivors will not always be here to remind us.

I am not asking anyone to forgive anyone - that must always be a matter for them. But please don't judge so harshly. When you learn that you cannot rely on others to help you - this may make you very determined never to place yourself again in position where you have to rely on others.

In these terrible circumstances - the idea of a universal love that transcended religous and cultural boundaries must be very difficult to accept.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 01:20 PM

Oh, I'm not suggesting to forget. Just to forgive. When people carry a bitter grievance, they frequently allow it to push them into violent acts against new outer enemies when what they are really doing is still fighting the same old enemies from their past that live hidden inside them like malicious ghosts.

You see that all the time even in individual behaviour. Somebody's parents terrorized him when he was a kid...so he goes out and terrorizes other kids in the playground, joins a gang, and mugs strangers and has fights with people and beats up his wife. And what is he really doing? He's getting even with his mother and father, seen through the mask of other individuals.

I'm suggesting that the Israelis, ever since World War II, have been getting even with the Nazis by fighting with Muslims. That simply doesn't make any sense. Now you have several generations of angry Muslims growing up who are personifying all their dark subconscious hurts and grievances of the past in the outer mask of Israel. Same basic fallacy. People can't get over this kind of thing until they confront their own inner habit of hatred, let go of it, and forgive. That doesn't require forgetting anything, it simply requires greater love and self-knowledge. The greatest love is that which can embrace all humanity, and beyond that...all life, not just one's own tribal or national or species affiliation.

That's why both Jesus and Gandhi gave a teaching which superceded specific tribal, national, racial or religious identities and boundaries. Love is Universal, it's not restricted behind borders or religious or cultural identities. If it is so restricted, it's not really Love, but some kind of a conditional arrangement.

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:50 AM

Those who wish to to be greedy, selfish and cruel and to generally 'stick the boot in' and shape the world around them in this fashion - often justify this as just being 'human nature' - and indeed it.

It is also another (if less celebrated part) of human nature - not to do this.

Trapped in the middle of all these mad systems - there are still people to be found who try to do the right thing. And even those who do chose to follow the party line and not to do the right thing - are also capable, at times of acts of surprising compassion. It is not so very easy to predict how human beings may behave.

The trick is to try and always ensure that we live in system where the choice to do the right thing - is one that is open to us.....

Subject: RE: Auschwitz and other mass murder
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 10:12 AM

Get over it - album title? ...wonders never cease. http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/tutsis.jpg

Caring feeling human beings are usually viewed as strange by the robomatic minions of violence and war.

I am reminded of Little Big Man being taught by the human beings.