Interesting bits of the Bible

Subject: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 05:07 AM

Ok, I guess some people find it all interesting.

Various groups quote bits of the Bible to support a particular aspect of what the say or do without regard for other bits.

I seem to remember the Dutch Reform Church of South Africa quoting a passage about horse not being hitched to Donkies or some such thing as a reason for Apathied.

Those who oppose gay relationships have an Old Testament quote about who can lie with who, although Jesus may not have had anything much to say on that issue.

I remember a number quotes in a letter to a news paper - I think one concerned stoning women who plant carrots alongside swedes. I almost certainly have the details wrong but do you get my drift?

Does this ring a bell. Does anybody know any of these unlikely bits of the Bible?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:18 AM

Fundamentalists insist on taking literal meaning from passages of their own choosing, while ignoring the contradictions. There is one paradox however that none want to face:
The Old Testament predicts the comming of the Messiah to be a saviour to the Jews. When Christ came he was rejected by the Jews because they did not believe Him to be the Messiah. He then became a saviour to the Gentiles.
Now the tough question is this:
"Was Christ a failure because he did not fulfill his intended mission?"
The thought of Christ failing in his mission would be heresy to these Bible thumpers , but if they claim to fully believe the old testament they would have to accept the fact that He did fail.
   Another theme from Christ's teaching that they don't often quote is the one about the camel and the eye of the needle.
The message of Christ was for us to "love one another" and to live in peace. What a shame that we are too stupid to follow such simple instructions!
    Obie

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:20 AM

All good stuff Obie.

I know this is childish but I was looking for funny one liners.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:18 AM

It's childish, AND insulting. Take anything out of context and you can have a ball with it, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Oh, I don't think it was your INTENTION to be offensive, but here's a wake-up call-- it is.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:44 AM

Obie,
Some "fundamentalists" may, as you say, "insist on taking literal meaning from passages of their own choosing, while ignoring the contradictions", but I can assure you that, in the majority of the fundamental churches to which I've been exposed -- and they have been many (I went to fundemental Christian schools from the time I was in elementary school) -- that kind of "interpretation" is not accepted as proper interpretation.

1. A fundamentalist would insist on an inerrant autograph, of which there are exactly none.

2. A fundamentalist would, however, still insist on handling (interpreting) what we do have with the utmost care and scholarship, as a true "revelation" from God.

3. That means that a fundamentalist would interpret the Bible to mean what it was intended to mean when "given" (as an inspired revelation) -- and that sussing out that meaning is part of the plan -- through scholarship.

4. So, a fundamentalist might insist, upon study, that parts of the Bible are, indeed, meant to be taken "literally" -- as with "Thou shalt not murder", or "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and even much of the historical record. But other parts of the Bible, the fundamentalist would insist, with equal vigor, that they should be taken "Symbolically" or "poetically" or "within historical/cultural context".

5. The fundamentalist would also say that context goes beyond simple placement context -- and extend to the whole of the Bible -- how it fits with the continual meaning. In this manner, rarely does a passage stand, unsupposrted by the whole, competely on its own apparent meaning.

So, if you asked a knowledgable fundamentalist if he takes the Bible "literally" he would probably say, "Some of it. But I take it all seriously."

One point of misunderstanding arises because, if the Bible seems to be clear on something that comes into question by virtue of external evidence, the fundamentalist is often hesitant to accept the new evidence on face value. The fundamentalist is hesitant to just be dismsissive of the Bible-- sometimes for "religion/tradition" reasons, but sometimes because fundamentalism has gotten burned in the past by accomodating too soon.

The fact that it is complex enough that you misunderstood this whole "literal" issue, you might find it easier to accept that many fundamentalists are just as confused as you. You could choose to cut them some slack. Or not.

Dr: ...and here we have the pregnant Bart, and the one armed Bart, and the railroad-spike-through-the-head Bart..."

Homer: aaaaaaw. Boy sure do love their trains!

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: catlova
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:51 AM

Obie

I found your contributions interesting. But I guess, in a thread with a very religious theme, people want to control the responses. I think your questions were worth asking.


catlova

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:00 AM

Who owns the Book?

Right then we can all read it, that's the point. My reading is as valid as anyone elses.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:01 AM

...oh, and by the way, Obie, I was certainly taught about the camel and the eye of the needle.

I was also taught that all of the Old Testament contained parallel prophecies -- One of a triumphant, ruling Messiah, and one of a bleeding sacrificial lamb. In good accept-the-paradoxes-and-live-in-faith tradition, I was taught that, though one might speculate as to how those prophesies were, or are yet to be fulfilled, it is a tricky game. But by no means does the Christian accept that Jesus' mission was a failure just because the Jews rejected him at the time of the incarnation. Quite the opposite. They see the incarnation as the fulfillment of the "bleeding lamb" portions of the Old Testament -- the fulfillment and explanation of the whole mysterious Levitical sacrificial system. And they believe that the triumphant. ruling Messiah is yet to come.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:06 AM

Who owns the Book?

Right then we can all read it, that's the point. My reading is as valid as anyone elses.

Les,

I think the point is that you might consider the insensitivity of ridiculing what another holds sacred. I'm sure you feel safe in assuming that those here in the mudcat do not hold the Book sacred, or if they do, those that do are of the ilk for whom you don't give a shit.

If you were given the assurances that this was an all-white internet forum, would you feel free to use the "N-word"? Probably not.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:20 AM

Jim, I think you might want to consider the insensitivity of attempting to ram your particular form of religion, with its presumptions, strictures, literary interpretation and dogma down the throats of those that want nothing to do with them.

There might be some who find your self-satisfied, true-believer hubris insulting as well.

Jalapeño, Brother.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:24 AM

Not ramming anything, Greg.

Keep it funky, man.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:40 AM

The thing is, when one holds up a line of text and interprets it literally in order to poke fun at people who one thinks take it literally, you're being as simplistic in "Bible interpretation" as the people ridiculed. It amounts to just ridiculing people one doesn't actually know, or the way one assumes they think, without actually getting in the face of an individual one knows well enough to gain understanding with.

Although it's considered quite PC at Mudcat to bash religion, when its done just for fun it gets really tiresome. And it's like yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. Yes, a lot of dumb stuff goes on (and has gone on) in the name of religion, but is it any help to run threads that only go over the same hurts over and over again? And is it all right to give as good as one feels one has gotten-- do hurt right back, at people who had nothing to do with whatever happened?

As an example of how really dumb this kind of Biblical citation is, tell me how much sense it makes when people with nothing but fear or hatred of religion lecture my husband-- our diocesan Bible scholar-- on the ins and outs of Scripture? See, it's easy to do that-- a lot easier than sitting down to actually ask curious questions and find out ways to look at it and study it from someone who can be helpful in learning something. Negativity is so LAZY.

The fear of being proselytized-at keeps people so much on the defensive, they assume it's every Christian's style, plan, and mission in life. Well I hate to break it to the trolls and flamers, but it's not, and I for one am tired of seeing an entire culture tarred with that brush any time faith of any sort is mentioned.

It's insulting. As folkies we plumb the depths of various cultures for the music, but it's fine to pick and choose which cultures to dismiss, bash, or ridicule? How dumb is that?

Not what Les intended? I would hope not. But the effect is the same, and it's cumulative. And it's feckin' SUNDAY so who is here to object?????????????

Why not just title threads like this honestly: "I'm Bored, So Please Help Me Ridicule Jewish Culture and Rekindle Anti-Xian Rancor".

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:09 AM

Seems to me that a pattern which persists like that contains some egregious alterations of truth. Otherwise it would not generate such endless wrangling.

But that's just me.


A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:43 AM

I suppose, Amos.

But if you were to try to give it the benefit of the doubt, you might note that science is also constantly self-correcting. Science is constanty refuting what it once held as true -- sometimes merely improving on what was known, but often completely shooting down many a pardigm which had quite pragmatic use within its context.


Hope your day is the ginchiest, Kooky!

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:46 AM

Seems to me that a body of writing which persists like that contains some worthwhile challenges to consider. Otherwise it would not generate such endless wrangling.

But that's just me.

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:58 AM

I for one am tired of seeing an entire culture tarred with that brush any time faith of any sort is mentioned.

Suggestion then: try condemning & opposing some of the "christain" loonies- might help to distance you from 'em & reduce the lumping.

"FEAR of being proselytized-at"??? Please. People are just tired of it & it eventually pisses them off. They're hardly afraid.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:11 AM

It seems to me that some people pick and choose which bits they want. I guess that's up to them.

But next time gay and lesbian people are attacked by reference to one tiny bit of the old testament I would like to have another bit to wrong foot them with.

Any offers, remember this book belongs to us all.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:13 AM

Greg F,

Not worried about lumping. Don't see your suggestion furthering anything I believe matters.

FEAR, yes, or why else react as hysterically as so many do? That kind of rigidity is almost always recognizable as fear-based when one takes a good, long look at the underlying experiences. So I don't find additional fear-mongering helpful toward any positive result.

attempting to ram ..... down the throats... Shucks, no fear in THAT image! :~) Funny.... I can't recall every actually hearing in church that we are to insert Bibles in anyone's orifices..... of course in most editions it wouldn't fit in any of them.... but I'll ask around. Maybe some sect goes in for that (not mine).

~S~

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:19 AM

It seems to me that some people pick and choose which bits they want. I guess that's up to them.

Les, we cross-posted.

What I think is more accurate for the vast majority of believers (of ANY belief system) is that on the level of actually living their lives, what people tend to do is try to live the parts they understand, one moment of life at a time; living then tends to enlarge what one feels one understands.

Answering an individual with a strategy aimed at a group is not going to be very accurate to the spot an individual might actually be able to hear you. In my experience what works better than arguing, in dealing with anyone's rigidity, is asking them questions. If you engage their thinking, at a spot where they can actually think flexibly if invited to do so without feeling attacked, you'd be surprised how even the most fundamentalist belief system suddenly opens up to light. But that takes relationship.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM

It is very difficult, sooner or later, to have exchanges with people who have decided to believe a whole collection of things based on a book written between 2 and how many thousands of years ago?

It is also difficult to understand why some religious people get so annoyed and offended because of what I might say (say) about some aspect of what they believe.

Religions seem to be a special case. What people believe does not need to founded in our general knowledge and understanding of the natural world. They have extra ways of being offended and in the UK we have special laws - Blasphamy Laws - to punish the rest of us who are outside that faith.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:50 AM

"Natural" world???


A

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:56 AM

The clear evidence from geology and other associated sciences is for this planet to be around four and a half billion years old. Their is no contending alternative.

Some religious groups denigh this have believe systems based on parts of the old testament.

Are they using the OT as a geology book? Looks like it to me. How can I discuss the origins of physical geography with these people?

Do they use the OT to service the car? No. Itis this inconsistency that makes exchanges difficult.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,Non-believer
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:58 AM

Les, one of my favorite passages in the "good book" is in Kings II, chapter 2. The prophet Elisha is just walking along minding his own business and several rotten little kids start making fun of him because of his bald head. Now this old testiment god doesn't like these little monsters ridiculing Elisha's folicular inadequacy, so, instead of giving the guy a nice head of hair, he sends two bears down to kill the children while Elisha goes on about his business, bald head shining in the hot, noon-day sun. Moral of the lesson? Don't mess with the big guy or his followers. Les, be careful opening your door, there might be a couple of bears coming your way.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:02 PM

Thank you Guest.

Ok people of the book is this a sound reading or a misunderstanding?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

Hey, Les:

Having studied two years into a Doctorate in Geology and having taught Historical Geology on a college level, I never found the slightest problem in the actual age of the earth. There must be at least five or six Christians left on the planet who take the account of the origin of the earth and calculate it's age from the bible. So far, at 69, I haven't met one yet. If you want to make generalizations about Christians, take the time to really get to know some.

Or perhaps, things are really much weirder in Britain. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

I don't think anyone here has said anything offensive. I took Les at his word that he/she was looking for 'interesting bits' that might not be commonly bruited about. I have one that I learned from a well read 'fundamentalist' co-worker. It had to do with not being too obnoxiously cheerful in the morning. He and I are early risers but if I haven't had my espresso in the morning I'm not the person 'my dog thinks I am'. He said it was in Proverbs that it is a sin to hale someone too cheerily in the morning.

Proverbs 27:14

On a side note let me recommend Scripture Markers. They are a set of colored plastic crayons which allow you to make visible marks on thin skinned bible pages. They son't smear and they are erasable. They're made by Sanford and I've only found them in Mormon bookstores (Beehive Books). I had a Mormon coworker who used them for marking up the National Electric Code books which are bibles in themselves.


All you have to do to be a revolutionary is examine the real world.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:07 PM

How about the origin and evolution of species then. A number slightly larger than 5 denigh the current neo-Darwinian thesis, including your President I think.

Is that the smell of burning school science books?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:08 PM

Then Les I would simply remind them that Paul said we are all children of light and we are not to judge anyone even if we do not necessarily agree with their lifestyle. And leave it at that. Because contention is of the devil >:) That first quote I think has more to do with believers and unbelievers than a particular ethnic group...the third quote I have no idea but it sounds rather like remnants of the old Mosiac Law. You have to take all those things in the context they were written.

Zechariah 5:1 World's first food fight

Proverbs 25:24 If Momma ain't happy ain't nobody happy

And a favorite to remind me when I get too wordy {O) Ecclesiastes 5:3

WS, I agree with you that we should never mock what is sacred...however I do think He can have a sense of humor {O)

So a suggestion is to try and turn this thread in a more positive direction and put down quote and passages from the Bible that are favorites, that have deeply moved you, that are odd or a bit funny, or that are just plain intriguing and encourage pondering rather than arguing over religions and who's right or wrong.

1st Corinthians 13:13

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:12 PM

You may want to do that. I want some quotes to wrong those homophobic biggots. And I see that as a good and positive thing to do.

Remember first they came for the gays and lesbians, then they came for the science teachers...............

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:15 PM

Robomatic: that's a funny quote {O)

If someone yelled good morning to me before I was good and awake I'd be liable to put a curse on 'em as well. Sounds like the one who wrote Proverbs knew what he/she was talking about

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

I NEED to know the instructions on how to work that curse.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:23 PM

Well, Les, if that was your actual intention, I think your thread title is disingenuous.

I still ask you though-- do you think it is actually going to help anything at all to use a tactic you deplore-- selective citation it's called, or proof-texting-- back at others who are already not thinking flexibly? In becoming equally rigid, do you think you have a better chance of getting "THEY" to be less rigid? Just in practical terms I mean-- um, that doesn't WORK. I'm sure not going to pour my energy into helping you research what I know from experience is essentially a negative black hole.

What is the positive thing you are after? How can we who know more Bible than you, help you get THERE? How is it you would rather "They" see gays and lesbians, for instance?   If "they" were allies instead of enemies?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:28 PM

hehehehe...

And that is why you should never make fun of bald-headed people...because you are liable to get mauled by bears...

As for science and religion...not necessarily a Bible quote but

" Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind " Good old Albert Eistein

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:34 PM

Fair comment about the title. It is difficult to be effective in three or four words.

As for the tactic you are probably right. But sometimes you have to confront people with a shock tactic. It is not possible to discuss much with the fascists and by that I mean the political far right.

In the same way I think confronting homophobic biggots, and that is not an overstatement, by asking them to comply with some other bizzare (sorry cannot seem to spell that) bit of the Bible is a startegy worth a try.

But to be honest my case falls if I cannot find a direction from the Bible which supports my purpose.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:45 PM

Les, I don't think it'a an overstatement either, I just have had some success dealing with the frightened, forgotten people living inside those bigots, and I want to encourage you not to give way to the temptation to use tactics bound to fail-- they fail because they simply become the bigots' fodder for more of their hate. Their hate (believe me or don't) is fear-based too, so scaring them out of their behavior doesn't work at all. It just entrenches them in what they were brainwashed to believe is right, as a programmed defense.

One way I use the Bible is as a set of "if everything fails read the directions" sourcebook. When I run out of bright ideas, or can see that the brightest ones are not working at all, I try what I see as God's suggestions. In other words, I hear the tone of them not as what I SHOULD do but as, "You know, it might actually work if you try it THIS way....." One of those is about loving one's enemies. Take the SHOULD out of it and it's actually a very subversive approach. It's so hard to defend against real love.

So again, how would you see the bigots behaving-- if they were hit by lightning, say-- if they became total allies? Go ahead and dream a little-- what would it look like?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:46 PM

So then, Jim, why are so many of the Fundementalists opposed to the work of the Jesus Seminar?

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM

Pogo: Thanks, I appreciated your posts, too ;-)

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

I know that you're right, Les. There are plenty more than five folks who don't believe in evolution. And not all of them are Christians, either. I too don't find one-upsmanship a particularly effective way to deal with people.

I might add that I went to college at The university Of Wisconsin in the "Bible Belt" of the United States, and people who didn't believe in evolution were in the great minority. If you're dealing with individuals, it's best to remember that, and avoid projecting the qualities of the few onto the whole.

Did you know that all black folkses loves watermelon? :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:16 PM

^_^

" Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. "

That's from Desiderata

" A soft answer turneth away wrath " That's from the Bible

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM

Nice one Jerry, but I am not intending, though I may fail, to generalise.

My target are the people who say they accept the Bible as it is, then quote small bits. Surely we can move on a bit by asking them why they follow this bit and not that bit.

I can manage polite non-agressive sometimes.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:23 PM

Ok I have thought of an realy dodgy example:

an eye for an eye .........

turn the other cheek.

Yes I know OT v NT.

But that doesn't bother some folks.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Pogo
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 01:40 PM

Well then Les...that's getting off into a whole 'nuther thread subject methinks...

I'd say go to the source and read it, personally. Matthew 5:17 talks of the Mosiac law and how Jesus said he had come not to destroy the law but to fufill it which (if you are so inclined to believe that Jesus was the son of God and I understand that many folks do not. That's quite allright) was a part of Jesus's job so to speak, to update the old law. And remember that the Bible covers quite a chunk of ancient history.

*shrugs* it makes sense to me...

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:09 PM

My target are the people who say they accept the Bible as it is, then quote small bits.

And every single one of them is an indivudual about whom you cannot accurately generalize. That's just one dimension of them they happen to have in common that happens to really bug you. But focusing on that aspect is not going to get you a result you want, any more than their focusing on the gay aspect of other's lives gets them what they say they want when THEY generalize. You see, this kind of thing can't be fought by using their tactics.

Why is it so hard to see what you would like, from them, as allies?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:31 PM

I take you for your word, Les, that you are not trying to generalize. I have to catch myself when I do that, too. When my sons were teenagers and would make really weird generalizations, I'd say in my best, deep, radio-announcer voice.. "According to a recent nationwide poll... and then repeat their generalization." It stopped them cold every time, with a loud laugh. They picked up on it after awhile and would really delight when they'd catch me making a stupid generalization and could return the "favor."

In the stupid generalization category, I came to know someone who worked at the blasphemed-on-Mudcat Walmart a couple of years ago. He was and is a very friendly guy. But one day, out of the clear blue, he pointed at someone in the store and said to me, "See that guy... he's a Baptist.. Baptists never keep their promises." I just about fell over, marveling at what a stupid generalization it was. When I challenged him about it, he wouldn't back down (despite reminding him that I am currently a Baptist, meself.) In the end, I could only laugh at his foolishness. I see a lot of good in him, and he'd do anything for me. Except think, I guess. But, that's alright. He too has his value.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:39 PM

We all carry collections of beliefs, and even simple knowledge and understanding, which can contain contradictions.

In certain situations these contradictions emerge as a problem on the way to understanding. The contadictions have to be recognised and reconsiled if we are to gain greater understanding.

I suppose I am assuming that the Bible contains contradictions and that people who accept most of it will have a problem with those contradictions. If some people believe it has none, it is difficult to see how I and they can have much of an exchange. But I want to confront them with this problem because it seems to lie at the heart of the matter.

My particular concern is the rise of 'Creation Science', which isn't science at all. But the attitude of some faith groups towards gay and lesbian people, and some towards black people when this is based in the Bible cannot be resolved with out reference to their fundamental acceptance of that book.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:51 PM

Yeah Les, you started this thread in a more lighthearted vein than your more recent posts.

As for 'an eye for an eye' this is a directive for proportional punishment. 'an eye for an eye' (and no more). It is not a recipe for harshness and cruelty.

There is a Jewish interpretation here

I found this through a simple search, I have no experience for the site, but it looked interesting.

When you get into serious scripture you go into territory that others have gone over before. If you're gonna take it trivially you're wasting yours and our time in this thread.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jim Tailor
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

You'll have to show me any "Creation science" that has involved itself in any issues of homosexuality or race. I'd be interested in seeing that. Anyone that I know who is involved in "creation science" is soley interested in questions of origins.

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 02:59 PM

Jerry I once had lunch with a friend who'd had a thorough and well rounded Catholic education. He told me how one of the priest's had admonished, "Boys, never trust a Jew!" to which my reaction was, that's not bad advice, but why limit it only to Jews. My friend is intelligent AND a friend. I took the bit of history to be an element of trust in itself. I have my own problems that I can't blame on priests. Once I spent a field trip on the job rooming with a guy named Haman. It's a long story, but after flying home I visited my next door neighbor who was crochething a scarf on her front porch: "Ada, I've learned not to blame any of my problems on Christians any more."
Without looking up she replied, "That's very nice, Robo, they're still going to blame you!"

and so it goes

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:04 PM

I am not aware of any teachings on gays or blacks related to creation science, either. I know that there are some people who do home schooling around here who use a creation science book. (Not don't get all riled up... I didn't say most people who do home schooling.)
The director of Education at the Museum where I worked read a lot on the subject, only because there were some people in the community who wanted him to help them with it. He didn't buy in to any of it, but he never mentioned anything aboutblacks and gays. I imagine it could be in there.. just never heard of it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Interesting bits of the Bible
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 03:05 PM

Jim,

'My particular concern is the rise of 'Creation Science', which isn't science at all.


But the attitude of some faith groups towards gay and lesbian people, and some towards black people when this is based in the Bible cannot be resolved with out reference to their fundamental acceptance of that book.'

I am sorry if this is unclear. These are two different points.

Robomatic,

'If you're gonna take it trivially you're wasting yours and our time in this thread.'

None of what I have intended is trivial.

I accept the point you make about proportionality but what is its natural conclusion, a life for a life?