UK/US notation terminology

Subject: UK/US notation terminology
From: Chris Green
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 07:24 PM

Okay, bit of an anoraky thread, but I found out the other day that there are differences in terminology for notation on both sides of the pond. I'd always happily assumed that notes are called quavers, crotchets, minims and semibreves and bars are called bars, and that this is a worldwide thing. It transpires that in the US they're called eighth notes, quarter notes, half notes and whole notes and bars are called measures! Are there any other differences in musical terminology like this in the US (or any other country for that matter?) If so, how did this come about?

Incidentally, in case this gets misconstrued as an American-bashing thread - it isn't. I'm just interested to know!

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: mooman
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 08:20 PM

Far from American-bashing I much prefer their common-sense terminology having endured the arcane and archaic UK version in my youth!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:09 PM

We Americans just couldn't figure out for sure if those were hemidemisemiquavers or semidemihemiquavers or demihemisemiquavers.
Can you blame us?
In the U.S., "bars" are what separate "measures." What are they called in the rest of the world?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: Bert
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:19 PM

Oh, and tones in England are called in notes the US.

Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone.

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:26 PM

Sometimes we call 'em bars, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 11:42 PM

It is always fun for me when Musicians of various lands get together! I just love to hear all the different ways Music can be expressed. I was recently giving my Turkish nephew a crash course in "Cowboy" songs as he loves the Music all about Cowboys. I wrote out several songs for him, and wanted to make sure that we were on the same page about how I was to notate the songs for his ease in understanding. As we were talking, I found out that the elementary schools in Turkey evidently have much better & more thorough Music Education than do our schools in the USA. This is based upon my experience as a Music Educator in American schools The standardized textbooks for Music leave alot to be desired, and "they" (the administrations) think it is more important that the kids spend more time in other activities. By the time kids get out of high school, they normally cannot remember how to read Music--if they learned it in the first place. My nephew only had regular Music classes in school & has considerable Musical knowledge. Their words for Musical concepts were very much like ours, such as for Minor, they say "mee-nor." Wow! I think I might enjoyteaching Music in Turkey!

Subject: RE: UK/US notaton terminology
From: Bert
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:48 AM

Bars! Now that's an idea that suits me.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 04:13 AM

In Greece too one used to get three years of music theory in elementary school (no lobger, sad to say...). I wwas lucky to have benefitted from that. The notation used was just like the US one - in translation of course. And no poncy words like "clef" either; it was "key of this or that". The only foreign words used referred to modes of playing and were Italian (addaggio, largo ma non tropo, latte con zuccero etc).

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST,foolestroupe - "I come fru da window!"
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 06:01 AM

Strictly speaking, 'the G clef' and 'the key of G' are totally different concepts...

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST,Snuffy
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:23 AM

"Bar lines" separate "bars" in the UK, Joe.

You could get a "measure" of whisky if you went into a "bar", though.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM

French use eg Doh7 instead of C7 and Germans use H for B natural. B = Bb.

What's the American term for a breve?

Stu

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:28 AM

"double whole note" or breve

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST,Splott Man by the back door
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 10:39 AM

In song structure, don't you say Bridge where we Brits say Middle 8?

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: GUEST,Burke
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 11:55 AM

I think we use bar & measure interchangeably in the the US. "Bar" and "bar line" are also synonyms.

Brits call the written out music 'dots.' I don't think we have an equivalent, sheet music, maybe. I think dots is really useful.

US & UK use movable do & name the notes A to G. French & maybe others use fixed DO. C=DO, D=RE, etc.

16th & 32nd notes are much easier to understand than the British equivalent. I've seen the UK terminology in some 19th century books. I wonder if our US practice is a translation of German terms. I know German musicians had a huge influence in the early 19th century.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Layah
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 06:44 PM

In the American system you can just keep getting smaller notes as far as you want, sixteenth notes, thirty second notes, sixty fourth notes (don't think I've seen anything smaller than sixty fourth notes). What do Brits use for notes smaller than an eighth?

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 06:51 PM

"Middle 8" is a "bridge," eh? I don't know that I'd ever heard the term "middle 8" before, but that's one term that makes a lot more sense.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 07:51 PM

In the US, I think "measure" is the term favored by "serious" (i.e. classical) musicians and professional music educators—it's the term they teach you in school. But "bar" seems to be the informal term that is favored by jazz musicians and others of their ilk.

There's the famous joke that comes from the Smothers Brothers:

Tom (sings): "Soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap, soap."
Dick: "What are you doing?"
Tom: "Oh, singin' about eight bars…"

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Bert
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 09:23 PM

Burke, here in the US I've heard them called tadpoles.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Chris Green
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 12:04 PM

Layah - over here an eighth note is a quaver, a sixteenth note is a semiquaver, a thirtysecond note is a demisemiquaver and and a sixty-fourth note is a hemidemisemiquaver. I'm rapidly coming round to the idea that the method on your side of the Atlantic make a hell of a lot more sense, particularly in an educational way!

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Layah
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 12:10 PM

I think hemidemisemiquaver may be the best word I've ever heard. While less sensical, it is so much more impressive than sixty fourth note.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

A crossword puzzle clue I still remember after several decades: "One who collects sixty-fourth notes." The answer ran across the whole width of the puzzle: "hemisemidemiquaver saver."

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Mooh
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 03:23 PM

My old Penguin dictionary of music had a table comparing words of music from 3 or 4 languages or traditions. (It also tried to define folk music.) Whole, half, quarter, eighth etc makes alot of sense to me, and it's easier to calculate, decipher, even correct, when quaver means nothing to me and I'm an old dog not liking new tricks.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:52 PM

Charlie, I kinda like the word minim. Sounds feminine and a little suggestive.

Should make a good folk song "Take your hands off my minim kind Sir!"

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: Bert
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 04:56 PM

Or, getting silly, "Don't let your crotchet, quaver anywhere near my minim"

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:06 PM

The term "bar" has actually been used in several ways in common US practice. Although the common usage by some now is the same as a "measure," the older, and in my opinion more legitimate, usage was to mean a "phrase."

An old classic, which I recall as being titled Beat Me Baby, Eight to the Bar referred to a standard "musical phrase" = "a bar" as consisting of 8 measures and being one phrase or "stanza" in the popular (was that ragtime, bop, or jazz?) music of the day.

A standard reference on notation, generally accepted by professional and semi-pro musicians internationally, is Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice by Garner Read, 2d edition, Taplinger Publishing Co, New York, ©1969 Crescendo Publishing Co., ISBN 0-8008-5453-5 (pbk), 482 pp. My copy shows a list price of $23.95 (US) and is a few years old. It includes some discussion of "Music Notation History;" but consistent with the abandoning of "archaic (British?) notation" it does not index an entry for "quaver."

Of course, strictly speaking, "quavers" are a matter of terminology, rather than of notation...

John

Subject: RE: UK/US notation terminology
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Feb 05 - 05:08 PM

Oops. That should have been Gardner Read.

S.A.T.

John