BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophilia

Subject: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 03:02 PM

"Germany is one the most popular destinations in Europe for women trafficked from Ukraine and Russia. (Global Survival Network, Vladmir Isachenkov, "Soviet Womem Slavery Flourishes," Associated Press, 6 November 1997)"

Prostitution Tourism

"The Philippines, Thailand, South Korea, Sri Lanka and Hong Kong are some of the primary Asian destinations for organized sex tours from Germany. (CATW - Asia Pacific, Trafficking in Women and Prostitution in the Asia Pacific)

At least 10,000 of estimated 200,000 - 400,000 German sex tourists seek to sexually exploit children. (The Child Help Organization, Duisburg, "A children's summit in the making?," the Hindu, 1 February 1998)

200,000 German men travel abroad each year as prostitution tourists, many of whom are seeking girls under the age of 14. (Child welfare experts, Emma Thomasson, Reuters, 29 July 1997)"


"Germany is one of the top 10 destination countries for sexual traffic in the world [Reuters (Geneva), 2 November, 2000]. Documented routes include ones that traffic women and children from China, the Czech Republic and other eastern European countries, Kyrgyzstan, and Nigeria [News (Nigeria), 2 April 2001, UN Integrated Regional Information Network, 5 February 2001]. Routes begin in China and proceed through Russia, Ukraine, and Hungary until they reach Germany. The International Organization for Migration notes that nearly 80 percent of the estimated 10,000 women trafficked into Germany every year are from central and eastern Europe and the newly independent states (such as Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania) [Reuters (Budapest), 27 September 2001]. Trafficked children come from those countries as well as from countries in Africa and eastern Europe [International Organization for Migration, "Trafficking in Women in Germany: A Case Study," 1998].


"The Catholic Weekly reports that it says women – and children – in poorer countries are lured or forced into 'domestic jobs' in Australia and other more affluent countries.

But when they arrive in the new country – Sydney is a known destination – they find themselves enslaved in brothels as prostitutes."

http://www.cathnews.com/news/208/74.php

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 03:20 PM

???

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Your point is *what* exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: MudGuard
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:13 PM

The US is the best place if you want to be imprisoned without any trial.
All you need is arabic ancestors, and you win a free trip to Guantanamo bay.

Oh, you do not even need to travel to the US, you can get your torture in your own country (you just need to live in a country that has some oil - like Iran or Iraq).

If you want to have your kids shot while at school, send them to the US - in no other country the risk for that is higher.

I could go on for some while but I stop here because it is silly.

Before you accuse the people of any foreign country, get your own acts clean.


MudGuard, quite angry
(from Munich, Germany)
(please excuse any mistakes/misspellings in my English, I am not a native speaker)

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:14 PM

It's awful all right-- now what?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:27 PM

You're quite right, Mudguard.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:37 PM

(...btw, this thread is for Wolfgang and Ooh-Aah2 who believe that all human rights abuses in the world (or at least all human rights abuses worth talking about) are committed by Muslims.)

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:45 PM

CC!! What's up girl? This is not like you. You are THE gentle and wise soul that I look up to the most in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aa2
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM

ABSOLUTE DISINGENUOUS BULLSHIT EVERYONE. CarolC is here referring to the thread Obit: More Mulim intolerance, where she has decisively lost the argument. I suggest people check out the points made by Wolfgang and myself over there to see what we REALLY said and put this bit of trolling of hers into context. What a sore loser!

Actually the last statement is more accurate without the word 'sore'.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:49 PM

Thanks gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM

Okay, I hate to be a gentleman here, actually anywhere, but, even though I have no right whatsoever to suggest this, let's just consider this thread over and done with. CC, get your ass back on that other thread and scrap if you want or admit "defeat".



JOE... please close this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:04 PM

It's not about defeat, gnu. When I tried to talk about this on the other thread, they told me to start a separate thread for anything that wasn't about acts committed by Muslims. So I did.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

I haven't often seen a more mean-spirited thread, imo. And no, I'm not going back to the other thread. I stopped going there when it stopped being enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:13 PM

You have your facts straight, Carol. This is a world wide problem. I will try to find the articles I have read about the Mullahs of Iran being heavily involved in the sex trade, too.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:14 PM

You're quite right, dianavan. It is a world-wide problem.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/iran_sex_slave_trade

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:26 PM

Okay. I never even read one post on that other thread because the title made me cringe. I bow to your wisdom, CC. Carry on. BTW, for any novices out there, I can't ever remember anyone calling CC a troll. There's gonna be hell to pay. She ain't no troll. She's the real deal.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:27 PM

I do appreciate that article you linked to, dianavan, saying this:

"Joining a global trend... "

On the other hand it doesn't make any more sense to me for that article to only focus on that sort of thing in the context of Muslim fundamentalism than it does for me to focus only on the sex slave trade in Germany and Australia in this thread (or any less, either, for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:28 PM

I don't doubt you have have a point, Carol, but unless you expect everyone reading this to dive into a thread you never even bothered to refer to in your initial post...

It's appallingly badly expressed. I've no intention of playing "hunt-the-point". What the bloody hell are you on about? With all due respect, at this point in time & from where I am reading, you have made a complete twit of yourself, & I am none the wiser as to what you think you are talking about!

I repeat my previous post,

Your point is *what* exactly?

That people treat other people who are not *enough* like themselves like shit? This is not news to most of us. What are you trying to get across?!

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:36 PM

Stop this crap NOW!
All religions & all non religious groups & nations are capable of all manner of evil things, we have seen this in the past over & over & we will see it in the future, over & over, so will our children's children!

skipy (not proud to be human!)

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:38 PM

Raedwulf, what is it about my opening post that you have a problem with?

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:39 PM

You're quite right, skipy.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM

Sorry, never meant to come in a "guest", luckily I signed it, but it could have been anybody - this is to comfirm that it was me.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: John O'L
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:52 PM

Skipy has hit the nail on the head, and as one door closes another door opens.

We do not need to change or obliterate religions & races other than our own, we need to change humanity as one, and it can't be done from the top down, it has to be done from the bottom up.
That means me & you & Wolfgang & Ooh Aah.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

For the record it wasn't me who suggested CarolC start a new thread, and I'm not sure if Wolfgang did either. Anyway the whole point of another thread would not be to debate the topic of an existing one as CarolC is doing!

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Raedwulf
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:57 PM

Carol,

That it says nothing specific. Who are you having a go at?

That men are willing to pay for sex?

That German men are more willing to pay for sex than anyone else you happen to have statistics for at the moment?

That German men are more likely to be paedophiles than anyone else you happen to have some sort of statistics for at the moment?

For the last time of asking, what the f*** is that point you are trying to make? At the moment your opening post is nothing but a vague smear. Against whom? About what? Men? Germans? The sex trade? What?

In the past I've always found your posts to be well expressed. This is piss-poor - I don't know what the hell you're currently trying to prove.

What??!!

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:09 PM

Well, I suppose I won't close this thread - yet - but I'll keep an eye on it. The basic premise of the thread is a thinly-veiled bigotry, the kind that seems to run rampant here at Mudcat. Of course, this sort of bigotry is considered socially acceptable because it isn't leveled against officially-recogized "minorities" - but to my mind, it's bigotry whenever you accuse an entire group for the misconduct of individuals within that group.

The implication of the first message is that all Germans are responsible for the Asian sex trade, when in fact it is a very few German men who are involved - and an almost-equal number of men and a few women from each of a number of other countries. Next we'll hear a demand that all Germans apologize for this horrendous deed, and that they pay reparations. The sex trade is indeed horrendous - but spreading the blame onto the entire nation of Germany is ludicrous. When we blame groups for the actions of a few individuals, we divert attention from those who truly are to blame, and we also divert attention from serious attempts to solve the problem.

So, I think it's bigotry - veiled bigotry, perhaps; but still bigotry. And it happens here at Mudcat all the time. I guess I feel it most when it's levelled against my Roman Catholic religion; but I'm offended in this case because of my German ancestry and cultural upbringing. But it pains me whenever this sort of bigotry arises - I'd like to think Mudcatters are above bigotry, but it's clear that they aren't.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

The people who bring young women to Australia as prostitutes are "snake heads" - people from China and South East Asia who bring them here, confiscate their passports and keep them under slave labour in their own brothels.

Check out a documentary, "the Good Woman of Bangkok" by Dennis O'Rourke, an australian film maker. After making the (very controversial film) he bought her a rice paddy so that she wouldnt have to work in the brothel any more. Her family sent her back to work in the brothel, they figured if one westerner was going to do that, then someone else might do something like that too. We dont hear a lot about male prostitutes in this argument, and there are male prostitutes all over the world as well.

Carol, are you saying there are no brothels, misogyny or pedophiles in the US? or that women dont use prostitutes? where they have money, power, or particular fetishes, they do.

it's a trap for anyone to try and be morally superior on the issue of prostition - its in every culture, every suburb. none of us has any moral superiority to anyone else - this is a fantasy which stops people listening, an excuse to block out others arguments if theyre not presented in a way thats acceptable to the other party.

freda, being morally superior

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

Joe Offer has hit the nail square on the head. The opening post to this thread is bigotry, and not even thinly veiled bigotry either. It is quite overt bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

Freda, I agree with your post. But I wouldn't just zero in on the slave traders for my criticism. I would also want to mention the customer demand for such things, and also whether or not the governments of the countries in which it flourishes are really doing anything constructive to try to stop it from happening there.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: DougR
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 07:03 PM

Good post, Joe.

I doubt any country is in a position to cast the first stone.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:10 PM

Still, it is a serious problem, and all humankind is responsible for seeing to it that it is resolved. I have a seminary classmate who's a Catholic priest in Milwaukee. He volunteered to serve as a Maryknoll missionary in Thailand for five years. Since he couldn't speak Thai, the Maryknolls assigned him to the Catholic Office of Tourism in Bangkok. That sounds like a cushy job, but it turns out his main responsibility was to work with other Asian nations to resolve the sex trade problem.

He got a real education in the process. Maybe we all need education on the matter.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

I also want to say that I appreciate the points that John O'Lennaine has made as well.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:20 PM

I understand what Carol is doing. It is a parody of the other thread. If you haven't read the other thread, it doesn't make a point on its own. In context, the point is "just as you can point to atrocities carried out by members of one group, I can point to atrocities carried out by members of the groups you yourselves belong to."

It's not intended as serious bigotry against Germans and Aussies, but as a parody of bigotry against Muslims. The point is not that Germans and Aussies are horrible, but that to claim ANY group AS A GROUP is horrible condemns the whole group for the actions of a few, and is thus unreasonable. Those of you who felt Carol was being unreasonable: that's the whole point.

How'm I doin', CarolC?

As far as thread parodies go, I have done the same thing myself. But I never felt too proud of it later. It's too easy for people to mistake the parody bigotry for real bigotry, and it's not really their fault if they do make that mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

You are only partially correct, Nerd. It's not intended as a parody. It's just me showing by negative example, the point that I have been rather unsuccessfully trying to make with words in the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:19 PM

You're assuming we've been following the other thread, Carol. Without it, your initial post makes no sense at all - it just looks like bigotry. Now that you have explained what you are doing, I can see the point you are trying to make, but I still think it is a pretty crummy way to do it. Your "negative example" has backfired. To me it just smacks of childish tit for tat games and "he did it first" stuff. My mother always taught me that two wrongs don't make a right - I'm afraid that is how it's coming across to a number of us.

So there's a lot of bad stuff happens out there. We know that. Now what? I haven't read the other thread and I don't intend to. I only looked at this thread because the word Aussie was in it and I'm an Aussie. I'd feel even more offended if I was German. So I'm outta here. I suspect this thread will not last long, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:33 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way, JennyO, and I apologize for using your country to make my point. I used Germany and Australia because those are the countries that Wolfgang and Ooh-Aah2 are from, and they are engaging in pretty much exactly the same behavior as what I have done in the opening post to this thread.

The problem with not doing what I did with this thread, is that some people don't seem to be able to understand how discrimination works unless it's the group to which they, themselves, belong that is being discriminated against.

Unfortunately, as Joe Offer has pointed out, there are many threads like this one that are started in the Mudcat. In fact, another one was started just today that singles out Niger for criticism for slavery while not mentioning any of the other contexts in which it is found in the world today.

Fortunately, several good people have stepped up to the plate here in this thread, and showed these kinds of bigotry for what they are. I don't expect this thread to put a stop to that sort of thing in the Mudcat, but I am encouraged by the kinds of responses I've gotten here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: open mike
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:53 PM

i did not read the "original thread" but i will respond to the prostitution topic...I saw a t.v. show the other day where a
reporter "bought" a young woman from a brothel in order to
give her her freedom. He took her to a safe house to help
her find another choice of livelyhood. I believe there was
a movie which got an oscar or grammy which was made by children
who were born into brothels and they are now making progress
with education, and oin other ways improving their lives.
the person who did the film issues cameras to these kids and
asked them to document their lives. they are now involved in
establishing a school. There are some poeple out there with
solutions who are trying to implement them.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:03 AM

Thanks for your post, open mike. You make some good points. On the subject with which I opened this thread (and I am here including all of the countries in which it is a problem), I find myself feeling pretty uncomfortable calling sex slaves "prostitutes". Prostitute suggests to me some degree of willing participation, and also some amount of financial remuneration. The women (and men, as freda has pointed out) and children who are the subject of this thread do not have either one... choice or financial remuneration. They are slaves in every sense of the word, being held captive against their will and being forced to engage in sex acts with strangers solely for the profit of their "owners".

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:08 AM

Why do all the world's problems, for the past 300 years, seem to connect back to the Germans? Is there a final solution?

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:16 AM

I think you know that what you have said is not true, GUEST,06 Mar 05 - 12:08 AM. Perhaps you are trying to suggest that by starting this thread, I am contributing to bigotry against Germans. I hope I have done a sufficient job of showing that no one group can or should be singled out for criticism of things that are committed by many groups. And although I tend to doubt very much that such a thing would happen, if it did, I would be just as enthusiastic about fighting against bigotry toward Germans as I would be for any other group.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:29 AM

re the germans, GUEST, when a business (whatever that business is, starts from one country to the other, it is always because someone who wants to start a business has a contact in that country.

It would have more to do with Germany's very generous treatment of migrants. They have granted more visas to refugees than any other country in europe, and have much more open borders. while this has helped a lot of people, some unscrupulous people also exploit that situation.

another factor to think of is that these things are happening in many places wherew it is not expected - but it is just not documented. carol - i understand now what you were doing - imagine an aussie not picking up on irony - diiing!

yes, it got my shackles up too, but you made your point pretty clearly!

freda (feeling thick)

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: mg
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:22 AM

I certainly don't see this as parody and we need to shine lights on this regardless of who gets offended. I'd print their names if I knew them..those who traffic and those who abuse the children that way. No point needs to be made. The more people that know about this the better. Didn't Lorcan right a song about this? Bangladesh? mg

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:15 AM

This is how bigotry starts. Somebody thinks they have enough justification to lash out at individuals by bashing a group they belong to in a "Take THAT and see how it feels" ploy, and it's not a parody. That's what you call it later, when the ripples spread out and touch folks you didn't intend to hurt.

This is why I don't get involved in political discussions much. There are very few people at Mudcat who can debate without coming across as hating the folks they're battling enough to kick them in the head if they were unconscious and bleeding on a sidewalk somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 10:51 AM

I'm sorry you feel that way, Jeri. But your characterization of my motives is wrong. There was no lashing out or "Take THAT" in my thought process when I started this thread. And I disagree with your premise that there will always be a ripple effect.

My motivation in starting this thread is the rampant and creeping anti-Muslim, anti-Arabism that is taking over the US and many other western countries, which I find extremely frightening. I can't just sit back and watch it happen, and I have been trying, quite unsuccessfully, to use words to help people see that Arabs and Muslims are human beings who are just as guilty, but no more guilty of human rights abuses than any other group of people in the world. I have, on many occasions, seen people calling for the elimination of all Muslims and /or Arabs right here in the Mudcat. Perhaps you can sit back and watch and not try to do anything about it, but I can't.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 11:23 AM

I think mudcat is quite even handed in it's anti catholic, anti jew, anti pop, anti bush, anti kerry, anti irish, anti protestant, anti brit, anti Us, anti shatner, anti rubbish, anti black, anti class, anti this, anti that and more often than not anti the other. Can't say I have seen any of the above groups get more of a bashing than the next one.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:03 PM

I agree with you, GUEST,06 Mar 05 - 11:23 AM, that bigotry against the groups you have mentioned is a problem (except for the pretend ones). I agree with Joe Offer when he feels discriminated against when people are bashing Catholics.

However, I have seen both named members and named GUESTS, as well as anonymous GUESTS calling for the complete elimination of Muslims and/or Arabs, but so far, with the exception of the occassional anonymous GUEST, such as GUEST,06 Mar 05 - 12:08 AM, I have not seen anyone calling for the complete elimination of any other groups besides Muslims and Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:07 PM

Hey Carol, sometimes the world just looks crappy. It might not really BE that crappy and people might not really be that cutthroat - it just seems that way.

My characterizatiion of your motives was simply how I understood: "I used Germany and Australia because those are the countries that Wolfgang and Ooh-Aah2 are from, and they are engaging in pretty much exactly the same behavior as what I have done in the opening post to this thread." Not a whole lot of mind reading involved, and I don't think I misinterpreted what you said.

There may not always be a ripple effect. There won't be, so long as current and future readers of this thread understand your point.

The buying and selling of sex slaves is an unimaginable thing to most people. Perhaps the topic might make for a worthy discussion, but I see that's not what this thread's about. The anti-Muslim sentiment here and in the real world isn't helping peace and understanding much, and your thread title did make me think. "Muslim intolerance" isn't the same as "intolerance by Muslims," and "Geman misogyny" isn't the same as "mysogyny by Germans." It's a difference between categorizing everybody in group or just some - the ones for which the label fits. "Muslim intolerance" means intolerance is an attribute of the Muslim religion and therefore everybody practicing it. Semantics. Perhaps people who read that title, will understand that the originator really didn't mean the bigotry. Perhaps they'll understand that about this thread title.

It's not something I'd bet on though, that everybody who reads the title will understand what was meant but not stated. The ripples will last as long as it exists and people read it.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:14 PM

"Muslims ...are just as guilty, but no more guilty of human rights abuses than any other group of people in the world".

CaroleC, you may be right, but we don't know that. Certainly if you are speaking of current issues, anecdotal evidence may be against you, although Israel and the USA seem also to be guilty of much. The guilt of the USA however may be more on the macro level of cultural imperialism.

And I think I would have said that the bias here is STRONGLY pro Irish terrorists, not anti-Irish.

However, I am also concerned by the general western world refusal to recognise that much sexual activity that has been regarded as normal throughout history is today stigmatised as paedophilia, and, moreover, that an accused paedophile is regarded as an outlaw who deserves to be killed on sight whether guilty or not.

And before you ask, not since I was pretty much that young myself.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 12:44 PM

Point well taken, Carol. It's in style today to portray Muslims as fanatics and killers, although on a per capita basis it is mostly Muslims themselves who are at the receiving end of massive organized violence by military forces. That is primarily because there is an American (and a British) adminstration in place that is intent on grabbing the Middle Eastern and Caspian oilfields, and it needs excuses to justify its wars in those areas, and to reduce civil liberties at home at the same time. These are the tactics of a developing totalitarian order ("New World Order").

When I was a kid it was in style to portray Germans and Japanese as sadists, fanatics, and killers (in comics, books, movies, and on TV). World War II had already been over for some time, but the whole World was still reveling in the depiction of subhuman German and Japanese villains. (every German and Japanese soldier in WWII was apparently a sick, ugly psychotic of some kind, if one was to believe that crap....) That did not start to change much until the mid-60's, when a few moviemakers had the guts to depict Germans and Japanese as actual, multi-dimensional human beings like the rest of us.

One has to wonder about this sort of knee-jerk hate propaganda. What is its real purpose and motivation? Well, I'd say it's mainly for two purposes:

1. To push people's buttons so that they will give their assent to organized violence against someone.

2. To cover up one's own iniquities by directing attention somewhere else. In this manner, one's own group or society is seen as the "knights in shining armour" rushing to the defence of humanity...and one can then blow up and destroy other places and other people without guilt....because they are "bad" people.

And that is precisely the program instituted by all fanatical aggressors to motivate their soldiers and their populace. Hitler did it. Mussolini did it. Stalin did it. Mao did it. Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Sharon do it. The present American administration is doing it.

As for the World sex trade, that is something totally out of control right now, and it will remain so as long as there are a lot of lonely, alienated people out there willing to pay money for an empty experience.   (No Woody Allen jokes, please.)

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM

Not a whole lot of mind reading involved, and I don't think I misinterpreted what you said.

Of course not, if you take what I said out of context, as you are doing. But if you also include this part of the same post...

The problem with not doing what I did with this thread, is that some people don't seem to be able to understand how discrimination works unless it's the group to which they, themselves, belong that is being discriminated against.

...You get my exact motives, which are to try to promote an understanding of "the other" as being just as human as the group to which one belongs, rather than your projection of what you think my motives are.

On the subject of ripples, I am seeing positive ripples here in this thread. I have apologized to people who have been offended by my methods. On balance, I am glad I started this thread, and it is my hope (and I don't think a totally unrealistic one) that it will, in the long run, do more good than harm. At any rate, we all have to take responsibility for our actions as well as our inactions. I am willing to take responsibility for mine.

Richard Bridge, you are right that we don't know. But one of the patterns that I am seeing, and that I find extremely disturbing, is that we are deluged with non-stop coverage in the media, much of it very sensational and detailed, and all of it very one sided, of all of the human rights abuses committed by Muslims and Arabs. And much of this coverage is also highly distorted, such as the promotion of the idea that the human rights abuses that are happening in the Darfur region of Sudan, are being committed by Muslims against non-Muslims, when the reality is that Muslims are also the victims in that conflict.

There are many, many human rights abuses by people who are not Muslims and/or Arabs that we just don't see any coverage about in the Western media. The sex slave trade is a very good example of this. This is not because they are not happening... it is because they are simply being ignored by the Western media. That sort of selective condemnation is also a form of bigotry and discrimination, and it leads to a very biased and distorted view in the minds of a lot of people about Muslims and Arabs, as well as the promotion of hatred and discrimination against those groups.

The other problem is that even when these things are covered in our media, when they are committed by Muslims and/or Arabs, the tendency is to say that they are doing it because they are Muslims and/or Arabs. But when human righs abuses are committed by groups to which people themselves belong, the tendency is not to think it is caused by the fact that they belong to that group.

The idea that, for instance, Germans participate in the sex slave trade because they are Germans has been vigorously criticized here in this thread, and rightly so. There should be equal criticism for the suggestion that when human rights abuses are committed by Muslims and/or Arabs, it is because they are Muslims and/or Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 01:10 PM

Good post, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 03:50 AM

CC, I think my impression would be that not all media coverage is as biased as you say. On terrorism, I do see what might be the sort of slant you suggest (perhaps the US is worse?), but as far as the sex trade is concerned, I'm not sure I see the same possible bias, and indeed my local paper, the Gravesend Reporter, led on it only a fortnight ago.

Is it not also arguable that the Muslim victims of Muslim violence in Iraq are really the victims of violence against non-Muslims (even occupying forces, or quislings)?

The problem is surely that we don't know. Even with the internet, we do not know what information is true, and what is intentionally or unnintentionally distorted.

However, this thread is about misogyny/paedophilia, and there are two things that do bother me. On the one hand we now criticise much that has for hundreds of years been acceptable, but on the other hand, Western society has the increasing convention that a youthful appearance - to the extent of depilation being increasingly the norm - and that has some echoes of institutional paedophilia. It looks to me like a circle that could be hard to square.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 12:11 PM

CC, I think my impression would be that not all media coverage is as biased as you say. On terrorism, I do see what might be the sort of slant you suggest (perhaps the US is worse?), but as far as the sex trade is concerned, I'm not sure I see the same possible bias, and indeed my local paper, the Gravesend Reporter, led on it only a fortnight ago.

It is far worse in the US than in the UK. But there are very significant and important gaps in the coverage you get in the UK as well.

Is it not also arguable that the Muslim victims of Muslim violence in Iraq are really the victims of violence against non-Muslims (even occupying forces, or quislings)?

No, I think it would be much more accurate to say that Iraqi victims of insurgent violence in Iraq are really the victims of violence against occupiers and rival political factions. Do you see how your mind wants to categorize these groups according to their religion, rather than in terms of the categories that are really relevant in this situation?

However, this thread is about misogyny/paedophilia, and there are two things that do bother me. On the one hand we now criticise much that has for hundreds of years been acceptable, but on the other hand, Western society has the increasing convention that a youthful appearance - to the extent of depilation being increasingly the norm - and that has some echoes of institutional paedophilia. It looks to me like a circle that could be hard to square.

It is indeed about that, but it is also about human rights abuses, their causes, and what we can do about them. One of the things we can do to try to fight against these abuses is to see others (whether they are objects of sexual desire, or people of the opposite sex, or Muslims, or any other people who become objectified and dehumanized because people see them as not being the same as the "self"), as we would want others to see ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM

CC

Papers: I did not say all was perfect in the UK. I merely said the media might not all be as bad as you thought, which you seem to concede, so there is no need to hector me.

Perception by religion: No, CC, I merely took your phrase and amended it. And I took the precaution of ensuring that the groups attacked were properly specified.

Thread subject: I merely reverted to the thread title. But, of course, I have no wish to be perceived as someone else's self, only my own self. That is not the same, but different.

Subject: RE: BS: More German/Aussie Misogyny/Pedophelia
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM

so there is no need to hector me

I'm not sure which of the things I've said to you you have taken to be hectoring.

Perception by religion: No, CC, I merely took your phrase and amended it. And I took the precaution of ensuring that the groups attacked were properly specified.

Are you talking about what I said about the situation in Sudan? Since I was talking about media reportage of the situation in Sudan when I said that, I don't see how it can possibly be extrapolated to also apply to Iraq. If I were to comment on the media coverage of what is going on in Iraq, I would have used much different kinds of examples.

Thread subject: I merely reverted to the thread title. But, of course, I have no wish to be perceived as someone else's self, only my own self. That is not the same, but different.

Does this paragraph from you fall into the category of what you would call "hectoring"?

Let me rephrase... perhaps you might enjoy being objectified and /or dehumanized. If that is the case, then what I am saying might not apply to you. However, if you prefer to be seen as a human being, rather than less than human, or as a lesser kind of human, you might want to consider viewing others as such yourself. I suspect that you already do this. The problem of human rights abuse is that people who commit such things are not doing this, and even using human rights abuses by others as a justification for committing human rights abuses is still human rights abuse. I think you understand what I am saying, there's no need to hector me.