BS: Fiction is illegal???

Subject: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:19 PM

http://www.lex18.com/global/story.asp?s=2989614

You people put up with this nonsence?!?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:28 PM

Second such case I am aware of in the past six or seven months.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:30 PM

Link

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:31 PM

Over reaction. Kentucky can be strange, but....

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:36 PM

idiocy

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM

"Second such case I am aware of "

No way!

And people still ive there?!?!?!?!

Wow...

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,SKIPY
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:42 PM

Didn't mention "nobody"!
Therefore mentioned "everybody"!
Skipy
(bastard thread:- Friction is illegal)

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:43 PM

I think the fear is based upon what did happen in the past. The thought is, What if the Columbine School incident killers had written a prophetic blueprint for their planned actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:46 PM

The most alarming thing in the whole story, to me: the poor kid's grandparents turned him over to the cops!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:47 PM

"I think the fear is based upon what did happen in the past."

Ya... anyone remember McCarthyism?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 03:52 PM

?? there were ZOMBIES in the story!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 04:54 PM

The people of America have made it clear that they prefer government by the morons, for the morons, and of the morons. 51 per cent of them voted for a psycho chimp. What do you expect, Clinton?

Which "you people" were you speaking to?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:03 PM

"The people of America have made it clear that they prefer government by the morons, for the morons, and of the morons"

LOL!

Well put... But I'm glad you said it and not me!

Heh

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Teresa
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:09 PM

Well, if mentioning schools in fiction is a felony in KY or anywhere else, some folks knew about it and didn't protest it. Go figure.

You can't legislate things like psychological intervention and family support. So this is what results. :-P

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:19 PM

Anybody recall the song, "The John Birch Society"? Was done by the Chad Mitchell Trio I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:30 PM

Why the knee-jerk reaction to defend a child's dream of mass-mayhem?

Maybe this thread is overreaction. It is at the point that this goes to the courts and upheld as a just discipline that one might worry -- not at the point at which a law with good intentions is being enforced. We go through this cycle with all law.

Skeptics want to know...

1. Did he turn the assignment in?
2. What was the assignment, and did the student's fiction meet it?

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:42 PM

"a child's dream of mass-mayhem"

Cause it had ZOMBIES in it?!?!?!?!

D'uh

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 05:55 PM

I'm guessing that if this is really found to be fiction with no threat there will be no charges (or whatever charges there my be will be dropped).

I remember the first time I heard that you can't even say the word "bomb" in an airport. It seemed pretty extreme. I don't see loads of civil rights being trampled though, this dozens of years later (with that law in place).

Of course, if I'm grama or gramps I'd be more likely to try to find out how my grandkid ended yup being so emotionally disturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM

Surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 06:22 PM

what's this "you people" stuff, Clinton? It only takes one or two in positions of authority to over-react and a few others to say "we gotta be cautious" in order to get the ball rolling.

Who is gonna pack up and leave town because of silliness? All the people of Kentucky can't move to Ohio...or even the totally sane country of Canada to 'escape' nonsense.

Sure it's a bad reaction to a 'probably' innocent situation, but these are 'people'....and I daresay a few near YOU might also be all-too-human in some situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: number 6
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:16 PM

I think Bill D. hit it on with his last sentance in the above thread. Hell the same thing could happen in Windsor.

Just remember 'you people' could also lend a helping hand when needed.

"I hear a LOT of Canadians saying a LOT of negative stuff about our brothers and sisters who live on the other side of our southern border.... Some even take to it like it's our Canadian Responsibility or our National Sport to be bigoted towards Americans."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 07:56 PM

The same scenario happened near to where I live in eastern Ontario a few years back. A young student in the town of Crysler wrote a short story about a kid wreaking havoc in his school. He was subsequently kicked out of school, and if I remember correctly was even brought to trial over the matter whereupon many in the literary community, including such luminaries as Margaret Atwood championed the case and it was eventually dismissed. The family had to enroll the student in a private school and I believe they eventually left the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

Sorry! that was me @ 7:56 post-forgot to log in.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:08 PM

Bill:

You're right. My comment was perhaps overmuch. Sorry.

The truth is, the case is not that fiction is illegal, but that the people involved failed to recognize fiction because their buttons got pushed. Effectively, pushing buttons is illegal. This is like the sol called security forces who warn you that you must not make jokes about bombs -- they WILL be taken seriously. They'd rather be dull, unimaginative, non-discriminating and literal-minded just to be sure they don't miss anything. What they fail to notice is that embracing those attitudes forces them to stop seeing what is going on around them and makes them much more likely to miss things!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM

Ya can't win. If Dylan and Harris had presented such a paper as a school report and they had gone on to do what they did at Columbine, everybody - we included - would have asked for God's sake how much plainer does a kid have to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:14 PM

This had ZOMBIES in it!!!

Where would a kid his age even GET zombies?!?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Mar 05 - 09:26 PM

The most disturbing thing about this is that a judge agreed to increase the bail that was set. So at least one judge is on the prosecutor's side.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 06:36 AM

"Why the knee-jerk reaction to defend a child's dream of mass-mayhem?"

It seems some Americans have never heard of the term 'thought police'.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:01 AM

When you live with the consequences of sick, perverted, dysfunctional "thought", and those consequences start manifesting themselves in an actual, honest-to-god death tolls, you start taking the "thought" of mass murder in the schools pretty damn seriously.

I think that sympathys are misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:34 AM

...police say the nature of the story makes it a felony. "Anytime you... possess matter involving a school or (school) function it's a felony in the state of Kentucky,"...

If depicting acts of violence occuring on a school campus is a felony in Kentucky, then it would have to be a felony for anyone of any age to do so. You simply can't have a law that says it's a felony for students to do something but it's okay for everybody else*. Does that mean that Stephen King's novel Carrie in which the main character wreaks deadly havoc at a school dance after being mistreated by fellow students is banned in Kentucky? Will Stephen be arrested if he makes the commencement address at Louisville University?

And while we're arresting Stephen King for violating Kentucky's no-school-violence law, let's pop him with a federal charge of plotting terrorism for having that guy in Insomnia fly a bomb-laden Cessna into a civic center.


* You can have "school rules" that ban activities that may be perfectly legal elsewhere. But the maximum penalty for breaking such a rule is expulsion from the school. A student can't be arrested unless his infraction is also a violation of the law. And if it's a violation of the law then anyone should be subject to arrest for doing the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 07:47 AM

Turned in by Grandma! Mao Tse Tung must be chuckling down there and waving his little red book.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:14 AM

Dated but applicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM

If you read the follow-up story at the linked site, you'll discover that a number of students are claiming that the guy actually asked them to join his "conspiracy" and that his English teacher claims there was no such writing assignment given.

It may be a misunderstanding, but in the light of the evidence so far, the school would have been grossly negligent not to investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 03:42 PM

I mark Provincial Exams--Grade 12 English. If we have the slightest reason to believe a student intends to harm mim/herself OR others, we are legally bound to report the essay to a designated person/exam manager. I think the student was at best foolish to write on such a topic, especially in light of terrible events at Columbine.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 08:44 PM

Amos said:

The truth is, the case is not that fiction is illegal, but that the people involved failed to recognize fiction because their buttons got pushed.

No, Amos, the truth is that we don't know that it's fiction at all. That's what the kid said, sure. But even before someone above pointed out the other kids' comments and the teacher not having given an assignment to which the story would be a response, I thought it sounded like a fishy self-serving excuse.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: heric
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:12 PM

The kid SAYS it was about zombies, CH. We haven't seen the writing, and it's nowhere reported that the grandparents or anyone else saw the word zombies. That may not be dispositive anyway. The kid is probably innocent but we sitting here don't KNOW that. Too bad they don't have grammar police there, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:22 PM

It may be hard for folks outside of the U.S. and Canada to understand the reaction. The plain truth is that Columbine wasn't the only tragedy that has taken place in U.S. schools. There have been multiple shootings, stabbings, extreme fights/beatings etc. Enough so that this at least needed to be looked into. Lets add the fact that the U.S. has become a very litigous society and the police and school boards have been sued for "not doing enough". There also doesn't seem to be alot to explain the Grandparents behavior. Perhaps this child fits some of the other psychological factors found in many of the previous antagonists (single parent, no parent, depression, etc.).

Fiction isn't illegal by a long shot. Some children just seem to know better than to write stories that might get too much attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:27 PM

The real point is, we need to strike a balance between "oh, how silly to get on the boy's case" and "this boy has to be called to answer for his dangerous thoughts".

Sure, interview the kid and do some asking about stuff to be safe, but maybe arresting him right off the bat was overkill!

Sheesh!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,old-timer
Date: 09 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM

If you think this is bad, you ain't seen nothin' yet - give George Bush and the right wing crowd a few more years and this kind of thing will appear mild compared to the other freedoms lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:05 AM

For me, the case simply proves what a powerful motive (and voter-management tool) fear is. And governments know it well, and use it. Hitler used it in the 1930s. Bush used it in his last pre-election campaign. Blair is using it in his efforts to introduce new anti-terrorism laws. And it will be used again, and again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 10:25 AM

We had a tragedy like Columbine at Taber, Alberta. Not as big, but just as devastating.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:31 AM

That story written from a different angle

I don't know which is correct, I just know that my personal reaction does depend very much upon which of these two stories I read first.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Wolfgang, you have just made an intellectual discovery that most people never seem to get to.

Always remember it!

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Ken Follett, Tom Clancy, Dean Koontz, John Grisham, et all, had better back off and start write about little birds and bunnies. Somebody might get the wrong idea and lock 'em up!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: heric
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:03 PM

You got tricked by Clinton's clever title. Fiction is not illegal, and that's why fiction is the kid's defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:11 PM

Ken Follett, Tom Clancy, Dean Koontz, John Grisham, et all, had better back off and start write about little birds and bunnies. Somebody might get the wrong idea and lock 'em up!

They have no worries. Everyone knows that their work is fiction.

...well, except for Koontz.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM

Ebbie is exactly right. In fact, Dylan Klebold wrote exactly such a story for his English cass at Columbine: it was about a guy dressed in black who took a lot of guns and started shooting jocks and other students. Then, a couple of months later he himself dressed in black, took a lot of guns, and started shooting jocks and other students.

Now, Dylan's story WAS fiction, and presented as such. While the teacher talked to him about the story, she did not take any disciplinary action.    In this case, the student CLAIMS the story is fiction, but then it's written in his journal, not where you'd typically write a short story. As others have said on this thread, we'll see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Crystal
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 05:57 AM

What we all to often fail to recognise is that cases like Columbine are oftern fuled by the bullying culture found in schools on both sides of the pond. The person who comitted thre crime is almost always described as a "loner" but why? Could it be because children are, if anything, better at mindless bullying, low grade nastyness and ganging up than adults? I think it is! Children as just as capable of being nasty, vicious, petty little ****s as any adult.

If we are to believe the books and tv shows then this is codefied into a far more rigid structure in American schools (I'm British so I can only speak on what the media presents me with). In America you apparently have the "Jocks and Cheerleaders" beautiful people who are lauded by everyone for physical prowess, The "Smart Kids" who are interlectually (is that the spelling?) high achievers but who are considered less worthy by their contempories because they prefer to achieve in their school work rather than socially, and the "Goths" kids who are picked on a "wierd" by their classmates, and who drift towards self harm and become introverted as a way of escape.

when bullying like this is endemic is it really suprising that those at the bottom of the heap strike back?

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM

The movie stereotypes of American high-school groups are broadly true except in reality these groups are not usually very hostile to each other. They tend to coexist peacefully. There is some friction, but
bullying is usually on a person to person basis rather than group to group.

The kids in Lewiston, Colorado ("Columbine" is the name of the high school) were sociopaths. Fortunately, such incidents are extremely rare. There are many millions of high school kids in America, and the number who shot their classmates or teachers over the past five or six years is probably about a dozen or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:12 PM

Its says it was in his journal.
What were his grandparents doing looking through his journal?
Sounds kinda twisted to me. Like... some sort of Big Brother arrangement.
(not the TV prog)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

If the kid's relatives find something like that in a journal (not a project or essay) and if they KNOW the kid and they chose to turn him in, then there might be more to the situation than you've been able to read.

If you work in an airport and you hear the word 'bomb' are you going to pay attention?

You know the old saying about shouting fire in a crowded theater?

A kid writes about shooting up a school and it's fiction, right up until he hauls out his Dad's old luger and starts blasting away. Feel better?

There was an article in my hometown paper by a guy who was abused as a kid by an older neighbor kid. It was still praying on him ten years later and he found where the guy now lived and decided to pay him a one time visit with a weapon. So happened that his mother, hundreds of miles away back home, discovered an old journal he'd left, and for the first time discovered what happened. Changed the whole momentum of the story around to the point where it became a very interesting article where nobody died.

Life ain't simple. Pretending it is makes it more hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Jon Hardly, you claim that this kid was, "emotionally disturbed."

I'd say that just about anyone would be emotionally disturbed by grandparents who turn you into police. Whether or not the kid was emotionally disturbed prior to that is not for you to decide.

Why is it a kid can't write in a private journal but violence can be broadcast coast to coast on t.v. or played daily on video games or on computers?

Its a set-up. Society creates it and then punishes their kids for re-enacting it or playing it out.

We watched cops and robbers and played cops and robbers. We watched cowboys and Indians and played cowboys and Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Mar 05 - 05:58 PM

Indeed we did Dianavan, but on my side of the pond, we weren't taught how to do it with real guns.

I remember watching, with horror, the reaction of a bereaved parent to the killing of his son in a school shooting in the US.

He said "If only I had taught him how to use a gun, he might be alive today".

My comment would have been "If the shooter's parents had been prevented from teaching him how to use a gun, all of his victims WOULD be alive today".

Which of these comments makes sense?.............No Contest!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:02 AM

another mass murder. At least this kid's right to write fiction wasn't abridged. That would be a tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:52 AM

If he had made fiction of it, John, it might have saved some lives.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM

let's just round up all the kids and put them in concentration camps...let them out at age 18...I think john hardly would like that...at least he would be safe...right? right?

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:59 AM

"Perhaps this child fits some of the other psychological factors found in many of the previous antagonists (single parent, no parent, depression, etc.)."

Like, having been abused and bullied until he couldn't take it anymore? We don't even know any of that this is all just speculation.

If there WERE zombies in the story it's much more likely to have been fiction, although zombies could be metaphorially appropriate for the school's citizens.

So you never wrote anything assignment-related in your journal?

Personally I think that storyline would be a great novel or computer game. Zombies take over your school and you have to kill all the infected and rescue anyone who is ok. That would be awesome if done well.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:56 PM

Heard on the news this morning that the kid in Minnesota was giving off warnings right and left. He boasted last year that he would shoot up the school on Hitler's Birthday, tried to recruit some followers, and for an assignment turned in a drawing of voracious zombies with the caption, "We March to the Music of Death till our Boots are Filled with Blood."

School's reaction? The teacher put the drawing up on the bulletin board with everyone else's and seems to have thought nothing more of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

"If he had made fiction of it, John, it might have saved some lives"

Nice logic, Amos.

Sylvia wrote romance novels. It kept her from loving anyone.

Jeff wrote about sailing so that he'd never actually use his 16' Hobie Cat.

Bill wrote a cookbook and never touched a frying pan again.

Ed wrote about possible house remodeling so he'd never have to touch a hammer again.

Good logic. All fiction is catharsis to keep us from acting on our impulses. Yeah. Good logic.

Love you, man.

On the chance that you're right, let's disregard this threatening type of "fiction" -- even though such "fiction" often does precede these mass murders -- as it again has this most recent one.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:39 PM

such "fiction" often does precede these mass murders (John Hardly)

That's a dangerously ambiguous sentence, in particular the 'often' in it.

Read in one sense it is true: Mass murderers have often written violent fiction before the murders.

Read in another sense it is wrong: Persons writing violent fiction do not 'often' turn to mass murderers later, most times they don't.

I don't know the real numbers so I make them up for the argument:
1 person in a million will be a mass muderer. 1 person in 10,000 writing violent fiction will become a mass murderer, so he will be 100 times more likely to be a mass murderer than any randomly drawn person. But still 9,999 people writing such fiction will not be mass murderers. So it all boils down to parental or teacher care. If you see such fiction watch out for other signs , talk to the kid, ask questions, talk to friends of him etc.

But you wouldn't call the police, search the house, forbid access to school on a 1 in 10,000 chance. Even then, such overreaction could even be argued to trigger later violence in some cases.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

That makes sense to me Wolfgang.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:55 PM

>>>>>these<<<<<.

The murders in question -- the mass murders in our schools -- are often preceded by writings about such fantasies. That's why we don't take such writings lightly.

Don't get pedantic on me or I'll nail you with all the pea-shooter intellect I have at my disposal.

And actually, "fantasy" is a better description than "fiction". And, to go back to the origins of this thread -- there was no such assignment for a fictional writing of this sort. It is easy to assume that these writings should not be dismissed, rather, investigated as though they may be fantsy writings of another murderous youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:09 PM

Hauling the kid in might be just a bit excessive, but at the very least, it should certainly alert teachers and/or parents to keep their eyes open. Also, what kind of video games does the kid like to play? These things, by themselves, might not be indicative of anything other than a vivid imagination, but considering recent events, I'd say it's better to err on the side of caution.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:12 PM

Also, lock up the goddam guns! When a kid can get his or her hands on a gun, someone has screwed up big time! I would say that whoever owns the gun used in a high school massacre or any other crime in which a minor has a gun should be held liable.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:24 PM

"I would say that whoever owns the gun used in a high school massacre or any other crime in which a minor has a gun should be held liable."

I think that's an idea well worth exploring. I tend to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Fiction is illegal???
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:31 PM

In the latest case it would be a bit late - the boy shot his grandfather, the owner of the gun.