BS: Libs- Beware of......

Subject: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:49 PM

Well, having bowed out of the "Libs- Get your numbers straight" I hvae finally come to the realization that hubby and bb don not want to discuss or debate real issues...

All either of them want to do is engage pro-human, pro-earth progressives in devisive and distrative meaningless food fights...

So my advice to my progressive friends here in Mudville is to carefully read these people posts before responding. They are baiting you into tangent threads that don't discuss issues but question people integrities. I was persanlly attacked by hubby and as it turned out we came up with the media sources to support my claims of 100,000 Iraqi deaths as a result of the US invasion.

The problem is/was, it was hubby who controlled the discussion for several days. This is exactly what Bush does. He keeps changing the conversations away from the real problems to emotional/devisive conversations...

Now, I would be the last person here in Mudville to ask for any type of censorship. Might of fact I have a history of defending "Guests". But, I would hope that my progressive friends here would play a little smarter and not be baited into meaningless distrations by the Bush-heads. If they are discussing policies or issue, fine. But when they get into personal attacks, take a pass...

We don't owe these two guys this much attention. They haven't earned it. Just being a**holes doesn't give them a pass to bait folks who care about the human race and this planet into mindless bickering...

Like I suggested... just take a pass and maybe they will either go peedle their papers elsewhere or will quit using Bush bully tactics on folks who are, IMHO, infinately more comapssionate, wise and intellegent...

Thank you very much...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:26 PM

I haven't posted to that thread because I sensed what it was.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM

Bullshit, bobert.

It's nice to see a refreshingling truthful thread instead of one of your obsessive Bush bashing threads.

Bring on more of this anti-liberal bullshit.

Perhaps then some real balanced debates can take place here.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

"go peedle their papers elsewhere " Great typo, Bobert!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:39 PM

Ahhhhh, slight revison folks...

Make that the "three" a**holes....

Sorry, Martin. I forgot about you... Sniff... I'm sorry but, to be honest, you ain't like the other two... You are genuinely lovable... Okay maybe not lovable but likeable... Okay, maybe not likable but less detestable... Yeah... less detestable...

But I should have at least given you an honorable mention and I'm sorry for the oversight. It won't happen again. I promise...

Okay?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:44 PM

You are pretty narrow, bobert and as predictable perhaps as anyone here.

I'll peedle in your face any opportunity I choose.

This thread is doomed.

Where's that thread about hockey? It's time to cut and paste.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:44 PM

I do like "peedle".

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

peedle is orgasmic for you, probably.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

Okay, I know this isn't a true obituary, but maybe it is for this national sport, at least as we know it at the professional level. I also know that few folks outside of Canada (or Canadians) are interested, so please bear with me, or skip to the next thread.

For two years, the players and owners have been arguing back and forth over a new binding agreement for wages, bonuses, job security, etc. The most recent contract expired this past spring/summer, and since then the owners have locked out the players... now, on the eve of cancelling the entire season, the players' union has gone back and said, "Okay owners, you can get what you want (sorta)." But, the owners rejected that offer, wanting a little more....

that being said... does anyone care? as far as hockey fans like myself, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:45 PM

Okay, I know this isn't a true obituary, but maybe it is for this national sport, at least as we know it at the professional level. I also know that few folks outside of Canada (or Canadians) are interested, so please bear with me, or skip to the next thread.

For two years, the players and owners have been arguing back and forth over a new binding agreement for wages, bonuses, job security, etc. The most recent contract expired this past spring/summer, and since then the owners have locked out the players... now, on the eve of cancelling the entire season, the players' union has gone back and said, "Okay owners, you can get what you want (sorta)." But, the owners rejected that offer, wanting a little more....

that being said... does anyone care? as far as hockey fans like myself, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:07 PM

I always take a pass on this crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM

Like Hell you do, Sorcha!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:13 PM

"I was persanlly attacked by hubby and as it turned out we came up with the media sources to support my claims of 100,000 Iraqi deaths as a result of the US invasion."

Bobert,

If you will go back and read my posts in the previous thread then you will realize that I never disputed the 100,000 number. That has never been a point of contention. The only thing that I pointed out was that all 100,000 were not "civilians" in the sense of the word being Mr and Mrs Joe Iraqi just trying to raise their family in the war torn country. Clearly, both of the websites that brucie gave links to clearly stated that the number of actual "civilians" killed were in the 15000-20000 range. The other 80000-85000 were BAD GUYS. There's your 100,000.

Now you're above statement seems a whole lot like what you were complaining about when bb was trying to hold your feet to the fire about something he said about you. If you clearly can't keep your facts straight about what people say on this forum, then how do you expect anybody to take you seriously about any other subject that you decide to rant and rave about.

Besides, your stating that you're going to ignore me and the other few conservatives there are in this community just goes to show that you are indeed truly scared of the truth. Instead, I see that you will continue to twist what we say in order to keep your troops together.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM

Ahhhh, don't gte sucked into Martin's Hockey thread, folks... It's funny but diversionary... He 's just trying to *change the conversation*... Yeah, it's cute but even cuteness is a diversionary tool... Bush can be cute, too, but that don't mean jack to the elderly who are coosing between drugs and food...

Hey, don't let these Bush-head crooks/agants highjack this thread... Let 'um have the others.

STAND UP, for God's sake (sorry to scream) and tell these folks that "We're on to you!!! Either talk issues or shut up! It's OUR TURN! (Sorry to scream) NOT YOURS! (Sorry about the scream...) Yeah, my friends, it is time for us to take back America and we won't do it playin' *their game*...

I am tired of a couple of creeps being able to highjack threads and redirect the converstaion...

We progressives are smarter than these these creeps...

Block them out like they don't friggin' exist...

Yeah, I saw hubby's post and guess what? Well, I'll tell ya what. Hubby has nuthin' to say to folk singers! Nuthin! See that mouse? Just click on that little arrow on the bottom right and breeze right on by hubby. He ain't worth yer time. Maybe in a couple of weeks you might wanta see what he's sayin' but if its the same old crap that we;ve been hearing from hubby then give himanother couple of weeks...

I mean this very seriously. If you progressives want to change America then WE (sorry about the scream) NOT THEM (sorry about the scream) gotta control the conversations... They have had the microphone and screaming at us way too long..

So I would ask you tonight to quit defending the little crap that hubby and his pals are using to over-power us and us the power of good old solid pro-human, pro-earth thinking and when they they, AS THEY WILL (Sorry for screaming) us their usual baiting tactics that we ignore them...

Oh sure, it may make life in Mudville a little less exciting for a few days but guess what? In the long run it will make for a better exchange of ideas... I promise...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:45 PM

Bobert,

Perhaps you should consider getting some professional help.

You seem to have gone beyond the range of acceptable human behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:54 PM

Ah, proud to be Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:01 PM

See? More of it... This is the kind of stuff we need to just ignore... They don't want the conversation redirected toward pro-human copncerns and will use whatever they can come up with to achieve their goals...

Please reread GUEST's (probably bb's) post just above this one. It examplifies what I am talking about here... Cute but diversionary...

Now, one more thing. As folk musicans we have an obligation as artists to make every attempt to make *snapshots* of the times in which we are living. We can't do that with Bodd Hog's agents trying to influence us. That is OUR (sorry for screaming) *charge*...

...so to be true to out art we must have the discipline to say "No" to those who would use any tactic they can come up with to throw us off course...

Think about it, if you will...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:01 PM

I see that you will continue to twist what we say in order to keep your troops together.

We love Bobert, but he doesn't have any troops. Being the free spirits we are, we speak for ourselves and not for each other. A point that I think may be lost on people who prefer to hang out in herds.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:34 PM

I didn't read that, CarolC. Why? Because I am boycotting the Bush-head *a**holes* at this point in time....

That's what I mean. We have choice and we have learned that there a re about three folks here who DELIGHT (sorry for screaming) in highjackimng threads or starting ones that are diversionary.

IGNORE THEM ( sorry for scraming). They are just agents of the Bush administration. You, by responding to their crap, are doing *exectly* what THEY (sorry for screaming) want.

You are to intellegent to step into their traps. Pick your batteles, If it's on their terms, take a pass... Keep it on top9ic. Keep it on issues. Keep it pro-human.

I have figured them out and so can you. Might of fact, since I consider all my friends here of progressive heart more intellegent than the Bush shills, I think we can defeat these *a**holes* here in Mudville and in doing so will give us a better perspective on how to defeat their leaders and take back our country...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 10:42 PM

I'm sorry, Bobert, but if I feel that I can make a positive difference by reading and responding to something they say, my conscience is going to tell me to do it. And I need to be able to follow my conscience.

You sound pretty worked up though, and I can certainly understand why and how you might feel that way, given the situation the world is in right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 11:03 PM

Just remember the story I once told, CarolC, about the racist author who was invited to speak before at a black college...

This story was told by a black preacher that I was working with back in the 60's and went some thing like this:

There was a racist author who had written a book about the inferiority of balck people and had been asked to speak before a balck audience at a southern black college.

The author stepped up to the microphone and calmly said, "All you folks are descendants of apes."

Well, this didn't go over too well with this balck college aged audience and the audience went berserk. Some of the folks just jumped up and down and screamed their displeasure with what the author had just said...

After a couple minutes of those in the audience jumping up and down in displeasure the auther walked to the microphone, calmly said I rest my case" and walked off the stage...

Now I lerned a lot from that story and that's why I relate it here...

I don't want anyone to think that I, in any fashion, wish to control anyone's right to say whatever they might think but...

... hey, keep it one your terms, not theirs... We have been sucked into their conversations for 5 years... If you want another 5 years---- or 50 years --- of being sucked into their conversations then keep responding to thier inapproprite posts.

I loves ya, CarolC, but you gotta give yer heart a break and just out flank these folks, who are morally bankrupt, with your head...

Shake the dust off your robes and move to a higher ground...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 11:22 PM

I'll keep that in mind, Bobert. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:39 AM

I would disagree that Hubby is morally bankrupt. He remains even-keeled almost always, despite that I do NOT care for his politics. I doubt he cares for mine either. I will continue to argue with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:52 AM

these two movies are worth years of argument.

the Human Stain

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Brucie. I too, see you as a worthy person whom carrying a sensible conversation with is very satisfying.

Now let's take a look at what's been said up to this point.

1. One's wish to keep it balanced.

2. One's direct statement that the "Progressives" need to control the conversation.

3. Ignore what conservatives have to say. (a few anyway)

4. Stay on the message.

Does that sound about right?

Throw out number 1 and that's what I've seen up to this point. But guess what?

1. We (conservatives) are the balance.

2. We do stay on topic. It's you who consistently changes the topic whenever we prove our points.

3. You can ignore us all day long if you wish. It doesn't make you any less wrong. It's sort of like the three year old child who hides behind his daddy's recliner with his eyes tightly shut. "If I can't see them then they can't see me." only this time it's "If I refuse to acknowledge them then what they are saying can't be right."

That's a dangerous way to live, my friend.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:10 PM

Wellm you almost got it right, hub...

First of all, there's no way to ignore what conservatives, 'er what ever you radical Bush-heads are saying because we get it blared at us 24/7... You wouldn't understand that since most of what you hear, at least in them media, are from folks with whom you would find much more common ground with than the progressives who are bamonarded by them...

And in these days and times if you are going to effect chenge you need two things: the microphone and the microphone again... Sure, the conservatives love to propagate the muthology that progressives don't frame the issues well enough to attrack much of a following. This is mythology. We don't happen to have the microphone. That is the problem and guess what. Who owns the microphone? Well, I'll tell ya' who owns the microphone. Rich people who tend to favor politicans who cut taxes... That's who...

So we find some satisfaction of coming to places like Mudcat and put forth our positions because it is one of the few outlets where the playing field is somewhat level...

Now, as for changing the conversation? Yeah, of course progressives will do what they can to get the converstion closer to areas that represent what we feel are imporatnt. If we have black kids in Texas who have been removed from life saving machines because they were poor and we have a white woman's body in Florida that has been kep alive for the last 15 years with these same machines then, sure, we would like for folks on your side to explain just how this can happen in a country that prides itself in "persuit of happiness" and all that stuff...

But I can see why you wounldn't want that conversation to happen. If I were on your side, I wouldn't either but I ceratinly wouldn't use some of the ractics that you have resorted to to shift attention away from the subject...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

But Bobert, the most powerful tactic people who hold the reins of power use with their microphones is the age old, tried and true "divide and conquer" tactic. Looks to me like it's working, too.

That's the whole point of creating the false dichotomy of "liberal" versus "conservative" or whatever other categories people use to identify themselves. But these categories are bogus. They exist only for the purpose of controling the masses, and they are very effective at doing this.

I think the only way past that tactic is to point out the areas of common ground where they exist whenever possible, to try to resist objectifying people with labels, and to try, whenever possible to shine a light on our shared humanity, rather than on artificial constructs like party affiliation, political labeling, or other kinds labeling.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:51 PM

Martin, I don't know what yer on about the hockey for, but here is your answer:

Little Hawk is Canadian, but he don't give a damn about the hockey strike. He gave up on hockey way back in the 1980's.

From what I see, a lot of other Canucks don't give a damn anymore either.

I know I don't.

His pal, Shane, on the other hand is havin' fits about it. He wants the Feds to force "Blinding Arbitation" on the players and owners and end the strike.

Only trouble is, Shane ain't no smarter than a really stupid Golden Retriever with one temporal lobe that ain't functioning right due to havin' had a large tree fall on it.

I agree with Bobert that you ain't half as detestable as certain other idiots on this forum, and yer loyal to Chicago, and that's a big point in your favor. Mind you, I have met complete jerks who love Chicago, but I ain't lettin' that prejudice me none against you.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

Hockey? When is the strike gonna start?

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:27 PM

Well, before I get around to redirecting this thread back to what its about, hey, I'm all fir the strike... Be the first year in the last 15 or so that I won't get my heart broken yet again my the under achieving Caps...

Now, if anyone had any doubts about what I mean by the diversionaty tactics that the Bush-heads will stoop to, I think I'd like to introduce Martin's lasr post on this thread as "Exhibit A"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:19 PM

WHAT STRIKE?

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM

That wasn't a poor black baby. That was an infant with an incurable and fatal form of dwarfism. Please. You sure like to color the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:50 PM

You aren't holding the microphone right now because you libs were holding it for thirty plus years and never did anything. All it brought us was higher interest rates and exploding inflation until Reagan came in and set things right. He even did it with a liberal congress. You always stuck with the same programs....overtax the wealthy....they're coming to take away your social security....they're going to take away you're kids lunches at school....they only fight for the big corporations....plus whatever other scare tactics that were keeping the masses tuned to your frequency. It's really a tired old message.

If you're going to call yourselves "progressive"...at least get a progressive message instead of just the same old crap.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM

I'd like to enter Hubby's lasy post as "Exhibit B"... Typical Bush mythology and purdy much what I said they would say...

And heric, the baby was not only *black* but from a family that couldn't afford to pay for life support. Do you deny this? If not, then I'll stand behind my original statement. If you do, we'll just have to find someone with blue clicky experience to put a link up to substantuate what I have claimed. (BTW, it's starting to get real tiring to have one Bush-head after another questioning my integrity....)(BTW, Part 2. Have you read the Texas legislation that Mr Bush signed into law?/)

Might of fact, might as well enter heric's last post as "Exhibit C", come to think about it.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

You can see a poor black baby if you want to. You are correct. I see an infant with an incurable and fatal form of dwarfism. I am also correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:30 PM

Okay... I can live with that...

But what about Terry?

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM

Okay, I know this isn't a true obituary, but maybe it is for this national sport, at least as we know it at the professional level. I also know that few folks outside of Canada (or Canadians) are interested, so please bear with me, or skip to the next thread.

For two years, the players and owners have been arguing back and forth over a new binding agreement for wages, bonuses, job security, etc. The most recent contract expired this past spring/summer, and since then the owners have locked out the players... now, on the eve of cancelling the entire season, the players' union has gone back and said, "Okay owners, you can get what you want (sorta)." But, the owners rejected that offer, wanting a little more....

that being said... does anyone care? as far as hockey fans like myself, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:45 PM

The delusional folk spouting off about the "same old crap" apparently aren't intelligent enough to look at what was going on BEFORE Franklin Roosevelt (a.k.a. The Antichrist) and compare it with the really "tired old message" and "same old crap" that dates from The Gilded Age and the likes of Teapot Dome, the Credit Mobilier, Social Darwinism & etc. that the BuShite crowd is currently pushing.

Only a delusional person or an idiot could look dispassionately at the econimic data available and conclude that Reagan improved things in any way, shape, or form.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: heric
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:11 PM

I have to avoid that question. I don't have an opinion (or even enough facts) on Schiavo yet, other than that I hope her husband's suffering (and her family's suffering), may ultimately help others down the line, after the politicians and judges get through with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 11:29 PM

Please, Bobert, take your medications. Otherwise you are going to have a stroke or something.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Frankham
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:13 PM

Carol C.

Like where you're coming from. Labels are too easy.

I don't think that we have to play into a diatribe by anyone. We can stick to
what we know to be the facts and offer them if for no other reason than as
a source of legitimate education.

Regarding the deaths in Iraq, I ask anyone to prove that they really know
how many people have died in this war. It's already been established that
the only deaths the Pentagon will count is of those lost in combat. There have been countless accidents. I don't believe you can rely on the news media in the States to give an accurate count.

I think one way out of the label dilemma is to state that on certain issues you can be one way or another. For example, on the issue of the national debt now in the trillions, I could in good conscience say I was a Conservative. On the issue of bringing our troops home now, maybe Liberal or Left. On the issue of the intrustion of government into the Schiavo red-herring I could be a Libertarian. On the issue of voter disenfranchisement due to technofraud, that is a totally non-partisan issue. Those that like to place labels on people use enemy-posing as an assault on ideas. So I agree with you. Stick to the issues and forget the labels unless they apply to a specific issue.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:43 PM

Frank, how many Jews have died by Palestinian suicide bombings?

Oh, sorry. Your not counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

Thanks Frank.

Actually, we do have some numbers for that one. Several hundred Israeli Jews have been killed by Palestinians, and several thousand Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers. Even one death from either group is too many.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:54 PM

Very true.

But the Israelis are not suicide bombers. You can't argue that, and I don't really care if you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 03:57 PM

Not to worry, Dougie...

I'm cool as a cucumber... No stroke here...

And, plus, the Caps are undefeated this season. Life is good...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

Dead is dead, whether you are killed by a suicide bomber or a settler with a gun. You can't argue that, and I don't really care if you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:47 PM

You are always the idiot carolC.

I forgot how much of a Jew hater and supporter of barbaric suicide bombers who you support you are,

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

And you are a perfect hypocrite (I know... nobody is perfect, but you come close in this case). But I won't let that ruin my day.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM

I would really like to see the mud slinging stop here you know? I think that everyone of us can agree that one death of an innocent person is too much, right? So let us find common ground and remember that we are all compassionate humans who do not wish to see innocent people suffer. I truly believe that everyone on mudcat feels that way based on their posts. I also believe that for the most part, each of you feels that they are 100% correct in their beliefs as if you didn't then you wouldn't believe it right? There is no way for any of us to decide what is right or wrong, and while I have tried not to get into a political debate I may be opening myself up to one. I will try and not get my feelings hurt by what response this may bring but this is what I think... I do not presume to know what the true motivation for us being in Iraq/Afghanistan are, but after Sept. 11, I do not want to see our country attacked like that again, yet I personally feel that we should at least be trying to ease out by now, and let them control their own country. I wish there was another way for us to help them achieve freedom, and maybe there was, but sadly it wasn't implemented if there was, and so sadly, what's done is done. That being said, I also feel that too many times people (other Government bodies) think that someone else will do the dirty work, so nobody does anything, so that is where America finds itself in a tough spot, for we are proponents of freedom, but does that make us right? Why should we force our views on other countries? I mean, why stop with the Middle East? Why not Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland? They are not democratic societies, so why not view them as oppressed too? Maybe because they are allies? I honestly do not know. I am so confused I don't know whether to scratch my watch or wind my butt! You know? Let me say that I love Hubby more than words can say, because he is a wonderful man, but he isn't always 100% correct either, but he truly strives to understand all viewpoints. He is a loveable Redneck, in the sense that he loves to fish and camp, and actually enjoys the simple things in life. I am not trying to defend him per se, as he can do that on his own. But I just thought it would be nice to say a little something about my views, and let everyone know that I do not agree with him everytime, and we do discuss each others POV, but we have a mutual respect for them, and I cannot speak for him but I actually respect every one of you guys' POV. I think he does too, because he does that with everyone I know. Well, I think I have said enough, and hopefully my babling didn't lose too many of you, as I know I tend to ramble. Take care all, and if you have any posts directed toward me, could you also send me a copy in a PM so I will be sure to get it? Post it hre for everyone else as well, but I don't want to miss anything. Thanks! Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:14 PM

I don't have to speak, she defends me
A drunkard's dream, if I ever did see one.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:21 PM

There is no way for any of us to decide what is right or wrong,

Pardon me? More post-modern relativist bullshit, or what?

PS: as hs been proven repreatedly, IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM

I empathize with your wishes for mutual tolerance, susu.

Puzzled by a couple of your comments, though...

How do you figure that England, Ireland, and Scotland are not democratic societies? Have you discussed that with any UK citizens?

Just what IS a democratic society, in your opinion?

And what is "freedom"? Is it one simple thing...or is it many things?

Most people who fight a war are consciously fighting for the freedom to run the agenda in a certain way that their country is in favour of, aren't they? (at the cost of someone else's freedom to run it differently!)

Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)

I also strive to love and understand all people, and I do appreciate that people on the other side of any political debate are normally standing up for what they consider to be good human values. That's always been the case just about everywhere you could care to mention. An army that simply does not believe in its own values is an army that will quickly collapse, EVEN if it's armed in a way totally equivalent to its opponents.

A badly out-classed army on the other hand (like that of Poland in '39 or Iraq in 2003) will quickly collapse regardless of whether or not they believe in their own side's values...in which case they will lose the freedom to run their agenda in the way they see fit.

No society has perfect freedom. Some have more freedom, some have less. Every society is a compromise between total freedom (which is not feasible) and total control (which is not feasible either). I have found Canada to be a bit freer in some respects than the USA, although they are both reasonably free, in the modern sense. I suspect they are both less free than some other places...in some respects...and more free, in others.

For a society to claim that it is fighting carte blanche for "freedom" is often just grand rhetoric used to camouflage and legitimize moves of aggressive self-interest. Most wars are fought for ownership and control, not for freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:27 PM

Why not Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland? They are not democratic societies...

"confused" don't half cover it. Try fu$kwitted.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:02 AM

Let me clarify, my point on mentioning other countries was not that I did not think that they are not actually a democrtic society, but to point out that who are we to decide what system works best for other countries?
Little Hawk posted this..."Just because your leaders TELL you that they are fighting for "freedom" doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true. :-) What they are usually really fighting for is money, resources, and control of money and resources. They want to be FREE to do it their way... :-)"
Which is what I meant but am obviously not as articulate as others when it comes to matters of politics. As for my opinion on a democratic society, for me it is when the majority of citizens feel that whatever governmental body they have works for them. They have a say in what effects them, and that they have the right not hold those in charge accountable for actions that violate human rights, am I wrong? I do not however feel that our country has the right to decide whether that is true for other countries or not. If they ask us for help that would be one thing, but to simply go in and do it on the assumption that "it is what they need" is wrong. So my reference to other countries did not mean I thought they were not a democratic society, heck I have a hard enough time understanding this country, much less one I do not live in. As for what I think freedom is... It isn't simple, and it isn't free. But what it is PPSSSHHHAAAWW! I enjoy many freedoms, I can go to the church of my choice, I can say what I think and not fear for my life, but sadly even in this country not everyone has that, I know that there are people who are members of the Arryian (sp?) society who kill peole based on their beliefs such as Muslims, Jews, etc. So you are correct there is no totally free society. Which is sad.

Greg F. stated, "IRAQ DIDN'T HAVE BUGGER ALL TO DO WITH SEPTEMBER 11th !!!" I didn't say that it did, did I? I think what I said was "I do not presume to know what the true motivation for us being in Iraq/Afghanistan are, but after Sept. 11, I do not want to see our country attacked like that again, yet I personally feel that we should at least be trying to ease out by now, and let them control their own country." meaning that if there was a chance that anyone may be trying to plan an attack on us, I would not want that to happen again. I then went on to say, "I wish there was another way for us to help them achieve freedom, and maybe there was, but sadly it wasn't implemented if there was, and so sadly, what's done is done." I am sure that at some point Saddam needed to be ousted, but I did put in my post that we seem to be the ones who are always imposing freedom and our POV's on other countries. And I also feel as though Viet Nam was alot like this, but I honestly do not know enough about that to be sure. Let me say this too, I oppose drafting of soldiers unless we are truly defending ourselves, i.e. if we were invaded on our own soil, not just an attack in which we are retaliating. But not to fight someone else's war. I guess I am as clear as mud now.
There is no need to attack me, based on my views, they may just need to be clarified, I hope this effort did that. And if I missed answering a question, pleas draw my attention to it, as it is a mere oversight, not intentional, Thanks, Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:11 AM

You make perfectly good sense, susu, you're just not as experienced a debater as some of us are, and people will leap gleefully on any little slip-up in your presentation...naturally. That's what most people are like when they're debating.

(it's like scoring points in a boxing match) :-)

I think it's fairly clear that Saddam would have been ousted not too far down the road anyway. Seems like his older son was carefully planning a coup to overthrow the old man, but it got pre-empted by the Iraq war. His son might have been as bad or worse, of course. So might any other given successor. I'm afraid the Iraqis have been virtually guaranteed a bad time almost regardless of what happened. They weren't well off under Saddam. They aren't well off being invaded and occupied by the USA. They won't be well off when the USA leaves. God help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:30 AM

First, I want to say that I was fully aware that people were going to get upset by what I said in my post @ 11:02 but again, and as LH so astutely observed, I am not an experienced debater. Please bear with me, I am trying to be clear, but often times what makes sense to me gets misconstrued. That's okay, all I ask is that you be patient with me.
Second, I must apologize to all you seasoned catters, I was informed that I should probably break my posts into paragraphs to make it easier to read and follow. I realize that has nothing to do with my inability to convey my message clearly, that is all on me, but I will try to be more structured and organized in the future, and welcome any other suggestions on how to post effectively from you guys.

LH, I agree, no matter when we leave things will be worse for them, as I do not forsee them ever being strong enough to take over from here (wherever that is). It is alot like enabling an alchoholic for so many years and then expecting them to deal with their problem on their own, cold turkey. Cruel if you ask me, because up to that point they actually have a false sense of security. I had something else pertainent to say, but I have been up for 20 hours and my brain can't remember it now. May I reserve the right to post it later if I think of it?
Anyway, thanks for your patience with me everyone as I am still learning. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:03 AM

Question; What did the republican party ever do for the working man but to work him to death, then throw him away?

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:09 PM

Little Hawk

Many of the ones who think they are serious debaters are really serious masterbaters I believe.

I don't come here to debate as it is a complete waste of time and energy. I would rather work on my own agenda and that is to riducule the complete bullshit they spout.

Many so called de/master baters here are some pretty big enemies of America. I don't take them or their lives very seriously.

they accomplish very little.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

... hey, those were my hockey comments *sniff sniff*

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:31 PM

Pretty big enemies of America?

Object to the actions of the current administration, yes, but objecting to things that you think the govenment is doing wrong is being a patriot, not being an enemy. You talk like Joe McCarthy. But then, you probably admire Joe McCarthy. There was a REAL enemy of America.

As far as de/master/bating is concerned, get a grip on yourself!

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 01:58 PM

He already does get a grip on himself Diogenes. That's what made him blind to the right of others to express their opinions without being personally attacked by him. Ignore the clown! He's not worth the energy.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

Don

You can give your opinions.

I reserve the right to tell you if I think it's full of crap, but you don't want to hear that, do you? If you feel so personally attacked, consider growing some skin, you whiner.

Your grip on your schmuck definately has an effect on what you spew.

Dog Genes, you are about as much a patriot here as a french poodle with a dingleberry driving it crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM

Martin, my pal, ahhhhh, I hate to break this to you but you have marginialized yourself here... Not too many folks expect much more than what you come up with, which is okay wid me... Yer like a commercial break... But again, that's fine with me. I think your posts are a hoot but I wouldn't be thinking that the ridicule anyone more than they ridicule you...

...but please don't quit... Sometimes it's nice knowing that there's someone in the room with a whoppy cushion just to break the ice, so to speak...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

Oh, for sure, Martin...the debaters accomplish very little...but it's just something to DO, that's all. And it enhances the speaker's sense of personal identity. Some people like watching football. Some like playing video games. Some enjoy archery. Others enjoy debating.

As the archer enjoys trying to hit the target, or the golfer enjoys trying to sink a putt, so the debater enjoys the mental challenges of the debate.

People have restless minds. They search around for something to engage those restless minds.

That's really all there is to it. A truly enlightened person would not spend hours a day debating with people on an Internet forum, that's for sure, because he'd have WAY better things to do, and be quite happy to leave other people to their own devices while he did those better things. :-)

Which makes me question: "Why am I on this forum so much?"

Because I've still got a restless mind, that's why. And it's become a habit. And it's fun, of course. The unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey...and is FULL of opinions and the desire to defeat opposing opinions.

Meantime, Life itself moves magestically on and God is God and no one can do a darned thing about it. :-)

Man, I WISH I could conquer my restless mind...and I could, if I wasn't so inclined to be lazy and just let it keep running the show for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM

Writing something down requires that one clarify it in one's own mind. If nothing else, that in itself justifies this forum. Of course, if all one does is belch and break wind, there is no thought there to clarify. It just contributes to the air pollution problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM

"the unenlightened mind is constantly seeking fun and variety, just like a restless monkey." Is it because I'm "unenlightened" that I find that an odd thought, L.H.? Does an "enlightened" mind operate on some superior level where fun and variety have been put away as childish things? If so, I don't think I wanta go there.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM

Yes, it's good training in developing both thinking and writing skills. No doubt about that. I've learned a fair bit on the past few years on this forum. One thing I've learned is how not to get offended nearly so easily as I used to.

But it's a lot safer here than it is in real life...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: susu
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM

Well I have to say that things around here are alot more enjoyable to me now that I have an understanding of people here, and now that I understand certain key phrases on the mud. I was wondering... Is it called Mud Cat because there is alot of mud clinging and the opinions here are viewed as stinky like a catfish? Or is it that just like a Mud Cat sometimes you must go really deep to get to what you want? Just some rambling thoughts I've had, but Mr. Genes, I do not think it takes clarity of mind to write things down... just read some of my posts, but make sure they are not signed Susu's Hubby as that is a whole other type of rambling going on there! Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:22 PM

No, frogprince, not exactly like that. Now, keep in mind, I am not enlightened, therefore I can only speak from a fractional knowledge about the matter...but this is my understanding of it:

An enlightened mind experiences absolute joy continuously (regardless of outer conditions). Under such a circumstance, "fun" would begin to seem a bit trivial wouldn't it? That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with wanting to have fun, it just means there is something much larger and more satisfying than fun, that's all.

Children do seek out childish things, and people in an ordinary state of mind are comparatively childish. They want fame, possessions, money, sensual enjoyments, little ego victories over others, power over others, and so on. That's childish, relatively speaking, but it makes perfect sense on its own level.

The enlightened mind loves all beings. The ordinary mind loves only a few individuals to whom it is attracted for some reason, and disregards the rest. The enlightened mind never stops loving. The ordinary mind can quickly turn what it calls "love" into hatred if it doesn't get what it wants. Thus, its love turns out to be somewhat counterfeit in nature, as it was not unconditional in the least.

The enlightened mind forgives. The ordinary mind harbours resentments and holds grudges.

The enlightened mind enjoys the variety of Life tremendously, but does not need to seek it, because it already has it. The ordinary mind is bored and frustrated with much of life, and imagines that there are a few "special" things out there that would make life way better...but they're usually on the "other side of the fence". There IS no other side of the fence for the enlightened mind.

I like fun and variety, just as much as you do, I'm sure, and my statement was not intended to brand fun and variety as bad things...it was intended to indicate how restless and driven the normal mind is. It's never satisfied for long. It's an emptiness that seemingly cannot be filled, and it experiences almost constant stress. It chatters constantly, like a monkey. It's like a body of water that's all whipped up into many disturbed waves...and thus cannot reflect anything accurately.

The enlightened mind is like that same body of water become still and tranquil, whereby it is allowed to reflect the whole of creation in a true and accurate manner. If I was there already, I probably wouldn't be HERE (typng messages on this forum, I mean).

I mean, really, would Gandhi or Buddha be amusing themselves by chatting on an Internet music forum if they were alive at this moment? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:35 PM

And enlightened people DO have fun, but they don't seek it from a position of want and need...the way the monkey mind constantly does. It's the monkey mind that keeps me coming back to this forum, but I try to seek enlightenment at the same time. It's an interesting process to observe, but a very hard one to control.

I consider Jesus, Buddha, and Krishna to have been very enlightened beings, and there have been many others. Most of them moved quietly through the World and were not been remembered by history at all. That is also the way of a Taoist master. He/she usually does not attract people's attention but passes by without notice, being in perfect harmony with the World. It's those who are seriously out of harmony who attract attention, usually, but an enlightened person can take on a special task in the World, as Jesus did, as Buddha did, in which case he is doing it as an act of mercy to help take others TO enlightenment and free them from suffering...NOT to found yet more churches and religious orders with yet more rules to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

susu - I have no idea why this place is called "Mudcat Cafe". I suggest you start a thread asking why.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:49 PM

Actually, Littlehawk, I'm just as glad you don't feel too
"enlightened" to spend some time here with us; I doubt if I'm the only one around here who finds you a remarkable mixture of genuine
profound thoughtfulness and strange flakiness. :) I guess I still seek "fun" sometimes, but it's just as apt to jump on me from somewhere unexpected. I think *seeking* for "joy" would be almost a contradiction in terms; on a couple of occasions I've gone looking for a little fun, and found joy instead; but as a deliberate plan I don't think that'll ever fly. I would say that I've had a good measure of joy *given* to me along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:06 PM

Well gol danged if this danged thread ain't gone left...

Who cares? Ya' all just carry on 'bout ant danged thing ya want...

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:55 PM

Thanks, frogprince. The "flakiness" you mention is for two reasons...

1. I'm rather unconventional in some ways.

2. I often say weird things here just for fun, and to relieve stress (both mine and other people's). :-) I find this helps to mend fences with even my most ardent political opponents...but Wolfgang remains a bit of a challenge for me to get along with at times. Wolfgang is very smart, but radically different from me in a certain basic philosophical sense, and we seem to annoy each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Libs- Beware of......
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:10 PM

There are ones who are enlightened truly and then there are those that have to act enlightened and are constantly looking for ways to justify their existance and push their self-serving enlightenment down everyone's throats.

Sorry if that sounds like more than a few here.

But I do have fun Little Hawk. So did Groucho with Margaret DuMont.