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BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
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Subject: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM From ABC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:27 AM Here is hoping her parents and siblings finally finds the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Saulgoldie Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:38 AM May she finally have the peace that her family worked so hard to deny her. I suspect that they will never allow themselves peace. I find this whole thing tragic beyond words. The only good thing is that it has put the issue of heroic treatment on the lips of everyone, and that many people have made or are making plans to ensure that the same thing will will not happen to them by filling out the appropriate paperwork and making sure it gets filed and otherwise handled. RIP, Terri. And peace to her husband, too, finally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Donuel Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:11 AM The parents have personally petitioned George W Bush and the Pope to bring Terry back to life. The Pope's response was unitelligible due to his feeding tube. George's response was simply unitelligible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Donuel Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:15 AM edit- unintelligible :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:22 AM When one of the first threads appeared here I responded to "How Will Terri Schiavo Die?"........and now I will repost exactly what I said then as it came, sadly, true..............Publicly, on display, and without the simple respect we could have afforded her. She will be a spectacle and a cause of a people virtually without values and now, forever, without grace...of which I am sad to be a member.............. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Rapparee Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:26 AM RIP. Please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:27 AM You are all absolutely right. And thank you Donuel, for the announcement. It's a couple of days late, but hell, those Right to Lifers are grassroots, so we gotta cut 'em some slack on that raising from the dead thing. Pathetically, I don't think Michael Schiavo will be finding any peace this week. He still has autopsy hysteria, cremation hysteria, and death threats to him, his partner, their children, and their relatives to worry about. With this spectacle, I am deeply ashamed to call myself an American. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Amos Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM She certainly got her fifteen minutes of fame, didn't she; pity she was not around to enjoy it. Rest in peace and go on to better things, lass. The circus is over. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM I don't expect it will get any easier for her husband any time soon. The final disposition of her remains and her estate loom. But she has finally broken free, and that's what he was working for, so I hope he feels some relief for that reason. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Donuel Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:43 AM Quite true Guest. The hysteria to come will include violence and unhearalded abusrdity that will rival the unprecedented Cnngressional vote and Bush vacation ending signing of the Schiavo bill. possible examples: Terry's feeding tube on ebay. $19.99 Terry tube yellow bracelets (to suppport God's right to make us suffer) Whack job Jerry Wallfell murders Michael for right to Life cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: kendall Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM Free at last |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Bobert Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:20 PM Can we have our government and media back now? But seriously, I am so happy for this embarressing chapter in American politics to finally be over... And I'm happy for her husband as well as her parents... But most of all, I am happy for Terri's spirit... May it now rest in eternal peace... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Peace Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:32 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:37 PM From GUEST 11:27 With this spectacle, I am deeply ashamed to call myself an American. GUEST, you haven't had the guts to call yourself anything. This is a truly unfortunate situation, but it is a VERY American thing and nothing new to those who know enough about their country and its people: 1) Concern over an issue that gets publicized out of all proportion. 2) Self analyzation and flagellation over the excesses of 1). 3) A lot of practical good coming out of a bad situation. 4) The non-involvement of the central character. I remember reading that Oscar Wilde was visiting the US at the time Jesse James was killed and noted in his diary that interested crowds had totally broken up his house for souvenirs. Your other comments GUEST I quite agree with including Donuel's bit of clever satire. Robo - A Proud American (No Matter How Much It Hurts) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM Finally! Now maybe the rest of the world can SHUT UP about it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: artbrooks Date: 31 Mar 05 - 12:45 PM Unfortunately, it is probably far from over. I expect the "wrongful death" lawsuit, and likely a criminal complaint, will be filed against Mr. Schiavo by the Schindlers within the week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: robomatic Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM 1) I apologize to everyone on this threa: That GUEST 12:37 post bitching about someone else's GUEST post was me. I regard incompetence as worse than cowardice, so I've got my (metaphorical) tail between my legs here. 2) Michael Schiavo had already announced that Terri would be autopsied, I'm wondering if that is related to his expectation as art indicates above, that he will be involved in civil litigation. 3) Considering how often this subject has already gone to the courts, on what basis could the Schindlers file suit against Michael Schiavo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:09 PM yes amos,the circus is over!now if all the animals,freaks and clowns would just go home! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM i am the recent Guest, who said all the freaksd,clowns and animals should go home...i am tarheel!aka,chuck hemrick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:11 PM congratulations to donuel, who is so happy this woman died and people who care about life are upset. With her death, you support murder of the innocent and sanctioned euthanasia. sorry she wasn't worthy of life to you exterminators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:17 PM Yaaawwwnnn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 01:25 PM Robo--it could end up in courts for the very reasons the rest of it did--the parents didn't have a grasp of the reality of the situation. Which is why I found it extremely ironic that early in the week there were quite a few headlines that pronounced that the Schindler's were "dealing with reality." What I find so appalling, and seems to be the one thing that I didn't see said outloud (while admitting that I didn't read every angry negative article about this case) that the whole incident was treated like a death penalty case. As if this was Carla Fay Tucker all over again. As if these appeals were conducted because her husband was willfully putting a rational person to death with impunity. The idea that so many doctors and rational intelligent people in the hospice saw the truth of her condition, yet the Bushes, the U.S. Congress, and in the end even Jessie Jackson and various and sundry others acted as if those same intelligent people would let him "excecute" his wife if there was a glimmer of hope. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:02 PM The Schindlers have already proved that they have no interest in winning really, which is why they so successfully abused the legal system and the nation with their plight. Remember, they didn't need a LEGITIMATE basis to keep abusing the system. That's why we call it abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Greg F. Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM The circus is far from over; maybe in the center ring, but the acts in the other two have only just begun. She may be gone, but the bullshit marches on, ad nauseum, ad infinitum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:28 PM And she apparently had the audacity to die AFTER her parents left the room, and with her husband instead. Which has truly pissed off Randall Terry, the anti-abortion nut, no end. Think of the propaganda value had she died on Easter...or with her mummy... But that she held out and took her last breath in the presence of her husband? Well, now that won't do at all for the Right to Lifers. RAndall Terry is already screaming at the media that it is ALL MICHAEL'S FAULT she died with him, and that he DENIED THE SCHINDLERS THIS LAST MOMENT WITH HER FAMILY. Sure looks to me like she died with her TRUE family present. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Clinton Hammond Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:30 PM " the bullshit marches on" It will as long as people keep talking about it anyway... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:32 PM It'll keep up as long as anyone can garner "political capital," or use it to their own enrichment. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: katlaughing Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:52 PM I hope we can get that GD Tom DeLay out of office next time, what a bastard: "This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change," the Texas Republican said. "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. Today we grieve, we pray, and we hope to God this fate never befalls another." I feel sorry for her husband. This is even a worse fiasco than the Elian Gonzales case and that was bad. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM Guests, i don't know if you are one and the same but you probably are. If you call loving your child anything but a legitimate reason you are obvviously not a parent and hopefully will never be. and if you call a husband like hers who was already common law married to another woman with 2 children her real family instead of her parents and siblings, you are a wacko and a fool. she died with her killer, phyically and mentally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: RichM Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM How wonderful to see that you on both sides, are all convinced you were right. King Solomon could take lessons from you! Please, stick to folk music, and leave ethics to the ethicists. I don't have the answers either; and I'm not wise enough to attempt to convert anyone's viewpoint. Those of you who consider this situation a victory for -whatever!...it makes me shake my head . Have some compassion---for all people involved in Terry Schiavo's struggle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:28 PM Oh, but RichM, don't you realize that liberal minded folksingers think they have thee answer to everything that is wrong in the world and if someone like myself who loves American folk and bluegrass music challanges that, they seem to suffer from constipation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:35 PM Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:38 PM Hey Wesley S. maybe it's time for you to take an upper or some speed so you won't miss someone's exciting post. don't fall asleep and be so boring, OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM Zzzzzzzzzzzzz......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM Looks like Wesley might have smoked too much. Heh. Heh Oh wesley, wake up, your mammy's calling you. Wesssssssssllllllllllleeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, rise and shine. Pull up your socks, pull up your jocks |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Bill D Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM it seems an autopsy is planned, but there is some dispute as to whether it will resolve ALL questions and end the debate. Experts say that they will probably see serious loss of brain cells and deterioration, but people will still argue about 'soul' and 'life' and such. All I can say is, fifteen years is a pretty long time. I do wonder if one of the more incensed protesters will try to harm her husband. Some of them do have some convoluted ideas about when it is ok to take a life. I hope both families will get some rest, relief and peace soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: LilyFestre Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:50 PM Hey Martin, Just a question for you...food for thought... Suppose something horrible happened to your wife and she was on life support. Let's say that you and she had a private conversation where she told you that she would want to stay on life support, no matter what. You agreed and promised to never take the life support away from her. Enter her parents with an entirely different viewpoint. They want the plug pulled. They don't believe in life support or some version of that song. As her husband, don't you think you should be granted the right to make that decision for your wife, the one who you spoke with and KNEW what she wanted? I know that you think there was foul play involved with Terri Schiavo and maybe there was, I don't know. I just wonder sometimes what folks would do if they were put into that situation. Would you honor your wife's wishes or let her family take over? I think it's a tough call and I don't envy any of them. I wonder if Terri could hear the bickering and the fighting and the hatred that was/is going on and what her feelings were. I think it's a tragedy for everyone involved. Michelle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: katlaughing Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:51 PM Hearing is the last faculty to go... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: artbrooks Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:56 PM FWIW: my wife and I have discussed our end-of-life wishes with each other and have let our children know what they are...and they are not the same. We have also gone the step that the Schiavos should have taken; we have living wills, signed and notorized. However, we have never discussed these plans with our parents - we feel that we are closer to each other and to our children at this phase in our lives. Contemplate the possibility, difficult as this may be for those who want to impose their own opinions upon others, that Mr. Schiavo has been absolutely correct regarding his wife's wishes all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM Lilyfestr, my wife and I each have a living, written will. It's a moot question, really. But if it should happen to you, I hope your husband wasn't living with another woman for 10 years and had two kids by her in a bygamist relationship and was capable of calling the shots. I would think the people who were your real blood relatives would supercede a phony marriage that existed between Michael and Terri Schiavo. He didn't care and for him, she was better off dead. Welcome to a the world of execution by convenience. Who's next, maybe a kid hooked up to a tube with cerabral palsy? There is a group called "Not Dead Yet." who is just starting to get heard on this issue. Question is will there be precedent or repurcussions. for the sake of living people, I hope the latter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM For those who have been following the Terri Schiavo drama through various threads and by watching and reading the news, this latest thread is an expression of relief that Terri Schaivo's unnatural existence has been resolved. She couldn't help herself, so her closest loved one, someone to whom she tied her welfare and who put her first, did it for her. For those not interested in the subject, one wonders why you bother to post here? It won't make the BS section of the 'Cat go away and it interrupts the conversation. And for those who don't want to stay on subject but who find pleasure in searching for and attacking others in as crude and hurtful a manner as possible, I will offer the following: be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it. Think about what you wished for Terry Schiavo. Pergatory. Existence beyond the 15 years she has already spent as the living dead. I don't suggest this for anyone's children, just you, so leave them out of it. Think about yourself in that same condition. There are long odds that this thread can continue with thoughtful expressions regarding this case, now that MG has decided to gift us with his presence. Once again he has shit in the water and everyone is now obligated to get out of the pool. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:32 PM You guys jes' don't seem to understand the workings of faith-based medicine (and law, too, for that matter.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM This adulterous murderer who has the gonads to call himself a husband should be prosecuted for murder and be the defendant in a wrongful death suit. He must not be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his criminal actions by living a happy life with that wench of a girlfriend and the two illegitimate children that he fathered with her out of wedlock. And if some crazo decides to put a bullet through his head I hope that President Bush will pardon the person who does it. He is a blight upon this great country and all that it stands for. I only hope that the HMOs and insurance companies do not try to use this miscarriage of justice as a precedent to avoid paying the hospital bills for those of us such as myself who wish to prolong our lives as much as possible by any and all artificial means, no matter how many tubes or respirators they have to hook us up to in order to accomplish that. Remember, there is no dignity in death, only in life. That is my sermon for the day. For those of you who do not like it I am sure that Martin Gibson will have a few choice words for you. I am proud to say that he and I think alike on this subject. SOL ZELLER |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:02 PM Rabbi Sol, my hope for you is that your wishes with regard to prolonging your own life by artificial means (or however you want to describe it), will be honored exactly as you have expressed them. That is my hope for everyone... that their own wishes about how they want to be treated under such circumstances will be honored above all other considerations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:03 PM "And if some crazo decides to put a bullet through his head I hope that President Bush will pardon the person who does it." Spoken like a man of god. Excuse me if I don't use a capitol G in your presense. God would be insulted that you claim to work for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:04 PM There can be great dignity in death. You, on the otherhand are an abomination to the living. You are in good company with Martin. Two totally sick puppies. Bow wow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM thank you Rabbi. SRS, you should leave and get out of the pool. There are people of great faith here who have things to say on the subject. You and Wesley S. both. or please just doze off with him. thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM Some people of great faith don't consider the death of the body to be the death of the soul. And so for those people (me included), there is dignity in death as well as in life. Just flip sides of the same coin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:17 PM "Allowed to die..." After two weeks without nourishment or liquids, that's what generally happens to people. A lot of anger in this thread. I think that kind of thing generally means people are a bit scared to think that just possibly they might be wrong. I think it's always important to keep that thought in your mind - "I might be wrong." It gets in the way of the kind of hatred that's been so apparent in this tragic case, here on the Mudcat as well as elsewhere.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:21 PM Meanwhile in Iraq, on death row etc...no right to life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM MR Zeller { since I'm finding it hard to believe that you actually are a Rabbi } - I await your passages in the Torah that support your position. I look forward to reading them. I don't believe you can support your views with any words from a holy book. I'm waiting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Bobert Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:59 PM The Taliban is alive and well here in Mudville.... All both of them... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Bill D Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:10 PM ......first you stick the dart in the wall where you want it, then you draw the bullseye around it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM The Taliban...You mean that sense of absolute belief that their way of seeing things was unquestionably right, and no disagreement could be tolerated? True, there seems a lot of that about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:13 PM So, for a woman who has been brain dead for 15 years in Florida, the president's condolences are immediate. 10 people dead in a school shooting on a poor rural reservation...condolences take about a week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:37 PM C'mon "Rabbi" - still waiting. Chapter and verse please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:42 PM As a reminder that this is not an issue on which people on the left are all lined up on one side, here's a link to a powerful piece by Nat Hentoff a couple of days ago in the Village Voice. And I've just been listening to George Galloway, about the most left-wing MP, expelled from the Labour Party for opposiong the war in Iraq making the same points on BBC Question Time - there's a video link of it here for the next week. My point is, treating this as a purely partisan political issue is unworthy, whoever does it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:17 PM I don't see Mr. Zeller or Mr. Gibson as "deeply" anything except offensive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Greg F. Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:20 PM Rabbi? Chas v'cholileh! Those sentiments are more at home in the mouth of an Eichmann or a Mengele and more appropriate to a Sobibor than a shul. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:23 PM Terri Schiavo's final moments with husband ALLEN G. BREED, Associated Press PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Her breathing labored and quick, her skin mottled with red splotches, Terri Schiavo spent her final moments clinging to one of her beloved stuffed animals. Michael Schiavo was at her side, in the same hospice where he has spent every night since his wife's feeding tube was removed two weeks ago. It became clear early Wednesday morning that the 41-year-old woman was entering the last stage of her life. Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, arrived at the hospice around 10:30 a.m. that day and, uncharacteristically, didn't leave. At some point Wednesday evening, Terri Schiavo's breathing became very labored and "we thought the end might be near," said Felos, himself a hospice volunteer. A hospice worker repositioned Schiavo, and that eased her breathing, Felos said. Michael Schiavo, the only man Teresa Marie Schindler ever dated, spent the night in a small room down the hall from his wife's, as he had every night for the past two weeks. When his wife's family wanted to visit her, he would leave her room - as he did at 7 a.m. Thursday. This detente worked reasonably well until 8:45 a.m., when hospice officials asked Bobby Schindler and his sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, to leave the room while they did an assessment. At that point, a clearly distraught Schindler got into an argument with one of the officers guarding the room, Felos said. "We want to be in the room when she dies," the Rev. Frank Pavone, a family supporter, quoted Bobby Schindler as saying. Felos said the husband's "overriding concern here was to provide for Terri a peaceful death with dignity" and rejected Schindler's request to be present with a police escort. Around this same time, hospice workers went to Michael Schiavo and told him if he wanted to see his wife before she died, "You'd better come right now." Michael Schiavo cradled his wife as she clutched a stuffed tabby cat under one of her cold and horribly contracted arms. Looking on were Felos, another attorney, Michael Schiavo's brother, Brian, and several of the hospice workers who had cared for her during her five-year stay there. A bouquet of white lilies and roses perfumed the room. Around 9 a.m., Terri Schiavo was dead. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, were not on the hospice grounds. After some time, Michael Schiavo left and allowed the Schindler family to visit with her body. He told them they could take any item from the room that they wanted. When the Schindlers left, hospice workers bathed Terri Schiavo's body. Michael went to see her one last time before turning her over to the medical examiner for an autopsy. As she lay on a medical examiner's gurney, about 40 hospice workers formed a circle around her and held their own remembrance. Around 11 a.m., as protesters outside the hospice gathered around to hear word of her death, two vans slipped out of the hospice grounds, each in a different direction. The person they had fought so hard for had gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: robomatic Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:47 PM Rabbi Sol: Glad to see you back after a long absence, but sorry to see you haven't moderated your view which sounds to me based more on your own worst suspicions and not on the facts of this sad situation. If you are indeed a rabbi, do you not see that a lot of people are in similar situations to Terri? Without the publicity, their relatives will fare somewhat better than either side of this case. To call for harm on Michael Schiavo is a pretty serious moral failing. I'd like you to think that over and possibly come back here one more time. Please |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: dianavan Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:02 PM Marin Gibson = Rabbi Sol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: goodbar Date: 31 Mar 05 - 09:42 PM goddammit i'm so fucking glad she's dead now. christ. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,emily s Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM A word to everyone thinking a living will is enough...It may not be. I heard a rabid guy on Democracy Now (radio show) saying that many hospitals are tending to ignore the living wills these days and that everyone should have a durable power of attorney so that someone is there on your behalf making the decisions. It's also very important to share your wishes with your family, apparently your whole family. Heck, maybe everyone should start mailing copies of their living wills to their congressmen, Tom Effing Delay and Bush. Seriously, look into the durable power of attorney, maybe it would be called a medical power of attorney. My attorney also advised making a short, to the point video stating your wishes. She said the courts would have a very hard time ignoring a video that showed clear mind and sincerity. I'm not an attorney, I'm just relating what I've heard and been told. Emily |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:38 PM I assure you dianastain that I am not Rabbi Sol, though I do know for sure that he is definately a well respected Rabbi in his community. Him and I are not the only ones who believe what we do and Wesley, please stop challanging him and worry about why priests are best known in this country for fondling little boys in their homosexual cults. Please explain that to me. I'm waiting. Greg F., I find your comments comparing the Rabbi to Eichmann and Mengele quite offensive and I think your behavior toward this man is both offensive and anti-social. I call for Joe to delete this as abusive and completely anti-social and I am going to PM him and ask him to remove it. It is a complete double standard here if it is not and shows how foolish and ignorant someone like Greg F. can be to make such an anti-semitic comment like he did. Seems like there's more than a few here who really don't practice what they preach when it comes to not liking things they hear when it's not their narrow little liberal train of thought. I read a lot of Jewish periodicals. It's time some of them were notified of the rampant anti-semitsm that exists on web forums and particularly on Mudcat. Time for the big expose, pals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:02 PM Martin Gibson said: I call for Joe to delete this as abusive and completely anti-social and I am going to PM him and ask him to remove it. Pot, meet kettle. This thread wasn't about you, Martin Gibson, but you've once again brought all of the attention to yourself. This need for attention has nothing to do with your religion--that's just one way you try to bludgeon people into not responding fully to your calculated attacks--anyone touches that "jewish" aspect you try to bring to your misbehavior and it's suddenly an anti-semitic jew-bashing post. You rely on the politeness of others to not cross into bashing a religion while you attack strategically from that very convenient position. You are simply so full of shit, and the fact that you keep getting away with it is I'm sure a great pleasure to you but it drives the people nuts who still feel somewhat obligated to fight fair and try to maintain some civil discourse. If you're a "good Jew," Martin, then I'm the pope. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:05 PM Zzzzzzzzzzz............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM I don't have to prove I'm a good Jew to you SRS. And the Pope will never be a woman, thank God, especially a woman like yourself. I drive you nuts? Or do you drive yourself nuts? Or were you always so? And watch your profanity, Lady. It's anti-social and not becoming of a lady which you should try to be. Profanity is supposed to be bleeped, right Joe? Why is this bimbo getting away with it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:16 PM C'mon "Rabbi" - still waiting. Chapter and verse please. C'mon - Please ??? And please don't take this as a personal attack. It's the ideas you expound that I have a problem with. Unlike others here I won't hit below the belt and wish your children dead or poke fun at a handicap. Man to man. Lets talk about ideas. Without the "Capt Poopypants" mentality that your friend has. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:20 PM Don't bother, Rabbi.
This guy is clueless and just feels sorry for himself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:36 PM Here is a cut and paste from Martin - "I hope all of you who do not agree that her parents have no say get to watch your child die before your eyes, also. Deal with that." End quote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Ebbie Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:07 AM It occurs to me that if I were to judge Jews by the two that we have here at the moment, I *would* be a rabid anti-Semite. However, I don't. Jews are no worse - or better - than anyone else, and if we needed evidence of that, we have it in the persons of a number of honorable and talented and decent Jews on the Mudcat. Elva Bontrager |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Boab Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:27 AM The lady is dead. She probably has been so for a long, long time as far as being in this world is concerned. I feel sorry for every family member in this case. Her Husband--AND his "commonlaw wife". All of her immediate family---father, mother and siblings.Who are we---or anybody not connected---to state what feelings are appropriate in a case like this? There are those who should feel shame at their own reactions and behaviour over this sad episode; but I'm fairly certain that the pukes I have in mind are hardly likely to feel ashamed, having proved their lack of humanity or Love for their fellow-man in the very recent past. The greatest shame lies in the fact that this very situation is played out DAILY in medical establishments and private homes all over this Earth, and not one hypocritical politico or jump-on-the-bandwagon 'pro-lifer" has even hinted at knowledge of that simple fact. Terri is now at peace. Perhaps she should have been allowed to pass on a long time ago. The God who is Love lays his hand on all of us at last, and no matter the circumstances of our passing, it is ALWAYS a mercy---and the easiest thing each of us ever experiences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Big Mick Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:58 AM Bring the expose on. Then we can show the Jewish community how two of its representatives behave here. They will arrive at the same conclusion that most here have. And their response would be the same. May she rest in peace. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:12 AM So now it's reported that Tom DeLay (that paragon of virtue) is saying the judiciary is out of control. The report I heard said he was implying the Supreme Court should be impeached (at least those who didn't vote the way he wanted on this case). Go to it, Tom. Should be interesting. Sorry for the thread creep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: artbrooks Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:33 AM Please don't assume that the two self-professed representatives of the Jewish religion and people are the only Jews present. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Greg F. Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:34 AM Well, Ron, the BuShites are used to having the Supremes do their bidding- as in 2000. So of course its going to piss DeLay et.al. off when they don't roll over on command. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: the lemonade lady Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:20 AM Why did the Vatican say it was wrong to remove her feeding tube? Doesn't that intervene with nature. Doesn't contraception intervene with nature? Am I saying what I think I'm saying? Sal |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:37 AM I think the Vatican said what it did about the feeding tube for two reasons. 1) That position had the support of the US Right to Life movement, and 2) they were prepared to use feeding tubes to keep the pope artificially alive. I see from McGrath's links that he is on the Schindler side of hysteria mongering about death. It sounds to me as if Michael Schiavo had it all well under control, and that his wife did, in the end, die the way we all would like to go. Peacefully slipped away. He certainly fought the good fight for her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Big Mick Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM Art, my post doesn't indicate that I think only two Jewish folks are here. It just speaks to these two. I believe that any reasonable person, Jewish or otherwise, could only arrive at the same conclusion. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM Ditto to what Mick said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: saulgoldie Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:03 AM Please note that neither MG nor RS should be the basis for any sweeping generalizations about Jews than Timothy McVeigh should be for Christians, or even, dare I say, Osama Bin Laden the basis for assessment of ALL Muslims. And now, back to the topic at hand. If this travesty had happened 50 years ago, she would have died very quickly and without fanfare. It should also be noted (as many here have) that cases of patients being allowed to die without heroic, unnatural intervention happen allthetime without fanfare or 24-hour news coverage whether or not there is any real "news" and certainly without all manner of legislative, executive, and judicial interference. In order to spare my relatives and cherished friends the pain and suffering experienced by Michael Schiavo, I will very shortly find and fill out all the necessary papers and filings so that any and all of the entities who should know of my wishes knows and is obliged to respect my wishes. I am astounded, too (but not altogether surprised, to tell you the truth) that most of the major pontificators on this matter fully endorse the war in Iraq, capital punishment, the wholesale slaughter of nature's other species, while simultaneously denouncing the right of everyone to adequate medical care so that they DON'T end up critical and vegetative. All of this (and many other "life" issues) reminds me that humanity has achieved the tools for interference with nature's will faster than it has achieved the moral sense to deal with it. BTW, now as ever, personal attacks in the place of thoughtful and logical arguments do not enhance the discussion; they only reflect on the maker of such "points." Remember that a good argument from an idiot is no less valid because it does not come from a genius. Similarly, a genius can make specious arguments that make him or her sound the fool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:28 AM Feeding is not medical treatment. Anyone who is deprived of nourishment and liquid is going to die. The term "allowed to die" in this context is a very creative use of language, but I feel "caused to die" is a more accurate way of putting it. Hysteria is catching, but, as saulgoldie said there, it does not pay any useful part in discussion. What it does do, of course, is provide a mechanism for changing the subject, and enable a move to the possibly more comfortable territory of personalised squabbling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: robomatic Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:44 AM Taking nourishment in concentrated form through a tube penetrating the skin and stomach walls most certainly requires medical intervention. The Catholic Church is on both sides of this issue. It is consistent with Catholic values and practice to suspend treatment that will sustain bodily function when that is ALL it will sustain. Last night on PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer they trotted out Father Richard John Neuhaus to make the case for the Schindler's side. He misrepresented the condition of Terri as if she was disabled. He is also the apologist that was trotted out four years ago to defend the Catholic hierarchy against the growing accusations of covering up priestly abuse. I heard this morning that the Pope has decided not to go to hospital in this his latest bout with life threatening health problems. His obtaining sustenance through a feeding tube is in aide of his mental facilities and comfort level, and a far cry from keeping the heart ticking for 15 years on a body whose mind has long since 'left the building'. Nevertheless it is apparent that there is already a limitation to how far they are going to take 'heroic' measures in his treatment. And mentally he has a lot more going on than Terri did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:49 AM According to the doctors, a feeding tube, which requires surgery, is a medical treatment. Hydration, which requires an IV, is a medical treatment. Belief that medical procedures aren't medical treatment is the sign of someone who is allowing their fear of dying, their religious beliefs or whatever, to trump reason. These are medical procedures that were only invented in the last 25-30 years. In fact, I saw a rather interesting interview this week with the inventor of the feeding tube. So McGrath, let me ask you this. If Terri Schiavo was in her condition prior to the invention of medical feeding and hydration treatments, would you favor her being force fed by spoonfeeding and forcing liquids on her to keep her alive? Even though she couldn't swallow? See, here is the thing. People know so little about the death process nowadays, and are so terrified of all things associated with death, they are clueless. Towards the end of life, one's swallowing ability frequently goes. That is one of the body's natural means of "murdering" itself (to use the hysteria mongerers' language). Ask anyone who works with the dying, and they will tell you that many people either consciously refuse to take liquids and food (as my great aunt did when she didn't want to live any longer), or the body's ability to swallow food and water leaves. So, if you want to call that murder, or use other hysterical language like "starving to death" and "dying of thirst" go right ahead. It just shows how ignorant, fearful and irrational you are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM Another important thing to remember--Terri Schiavo had health insurance. People who don't have health insurance are most often the first ones to have "life support" removed. But nobody bats an eyelash about poor people being "starved to death" and "murdered" do they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM And BTW, I opposed the Iraq war, didn't vote for either war mongering candidate for president, am opposed to capital punishment, and am willing to fight like hell for my loved ones to receive whatever medical care we deem appropriate, as we did in the case of my mother. But in this case, I saw no evidence of anything but a loving husband doing his best in a very, very bad situation for his wife. The parents, on the other hand... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM Saul and Art make good points, and backup my resistance to letting the two outspoken antisocial members attempt to shield their misbehavior behind a religious cloak. The behavior and the cloak are ill-matched, and in fact, unrelated. A priest on a morning news program today kept wildly accusing those who let Terri die of being "murderers." Then he would say "we don't want to make them enemies, we want to talk with them, but we must call them what the are, 'murderers.'" This is as good an example of giving with the right hand and taking with the left as I've ever seen. He has no intention whatsoever of talking with those he would accuse. He has his agenda in mind and is grandstanding as long as the news programs will let him. A lot of thoughtful people are directing their prayers and/or good wishes toward the Schiavos. Those are sufficient to release Terri's spirit and comfort those who were carrying out her wishes, much to the chagrin of the rest. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM jews make some Mudcatters uncomfortable, especially ones who say it truthfully. Some liberal Jews here certainly do not represent the feelings of all Jews. I would bet any money on it that most of them are Jewish in name only. I know quite a few liberal minded people but the liberal Mudcat whiners sure doesn't represent them. they laugh at the mindset you babble about. Terry Schiavo died in 13 days by starvation that could could have been prevented by people with any conscience. But I wouldn't expect that from baby killers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM I read a lot of Jewish periodicals. It's time some of them were notified of the rampant anti-semitsm that exists on web forums and particularly on Mudcat. Time for the big expose, pals. Make sure you tell the people you contact at those periodicals your screen name (Martin Gibson) when you do that. I'm sure they'll want to know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:07 PM Martin Gibson only exists here at Mudcat for your drinking and dining pleasure. But you knew that. He is a fictional web forum character who shows and brings out the worst in radical liberal America. He is succeeding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: mg Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM She was not dying..she was profoundly brain damaged...and what I think of as being in a pvs is not what I would call what I saw onthe few TV clips I saw..of course I might not be talking about the official definition...I was very inclined to side with the husband up to a point, but there are too many questions..I don't know the truth of the matter but it has been claimed he wouldn't allow window shades open, feeding her when she was able to swallow, taking her outside in the sunshine...we are talking as though she were dying. She was not. We do not need fancy machines to drip water into someone. It does not have to be IV. I am not for artificially prolonging life, especially terminal life, especially where there is severe pain, which there should never be..if morphine doesn't stop it, there are surgeries that could...but we have to know the facts and talk through the facts...that this is a situation of a handicapped, permanently handicapped person being forced to die of thirst. I have studied neuroanatomy etc. and I don't know what is what here..but I surely would not claim that someone with brain damage could not feel pain...has she had even simple tests to determine that? g |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM Mary, you saw what they wanted you to see in that brief clip, and they knew you would assume some sentient presence in what were in fact a few reflex moves, pure lower brain stem stuff. That was apparently a tiny reflex edited from a four hour tape of her motionless vacant gaze. By surgically inserting a device through her abdomen into her stomach they were prolonging a state that, before the type of surgery was possible, would have rapidly resulted in the death of a woman who couldn't eat or drink. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM Nevertheless, I think the people at those publications would find your posts most enlightening, Martin. Might make them think twice about taking anything you say seriously on the subject of antisemitism, though. In fact, I would be willing to bet money that after reading a couple of week's wort of your postings, they would tell you to shut up and leave them alone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Ebbie Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM Before her husband gave up on her ever recovering, he took her to clinics and specialists, having a procedure implanted in her brain that works for some people but did not for her, and for therapy and consultations. He did this for SEVEN years. He finally accepted the word of DOCTORS that the case was hopeless, and went on with his own life as Ms Schiavo's parents advised him to do. Despite the bitterness of the struggle between her parents and her husband, her parents acknowledge that they urged him to move on. What is there here for any of us to second guess?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM I think discussion about what is and what is not antisemitism doesn't really belong on this thread, especially since there is another thread up and running specifically about that, and I haven't recognised any examples of it on this thread. There've been a fair amount of flirting with bigotry, but not of that particular variety. Not that I've seen anyway - I just scroll past any posts without names, of course. ................... I wish more people were able to adopt mary garvey's undogmatic approach in that last post - there's too much certainty about things we don't know, and too much selectivity about the things we do know, to bolster whatever side we have decided to come down on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM Stating an opinion about something when one has just admitted to not having much information on the subject can hardly be categorized as undogmatic, McGrath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM Mary Garvey's opinion was from the heart. That's better than all of the Internet sites you just shove in people's faces CarolC claiming they are truthful and justify your life in a tin can existence. I commend Mary Garvey for her heartfelt pure opinion and CarolC, you should only have half of her humanistic view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM I respect that Mary cares. I don't think that stating an opinion on something that you don't know anything about is a very inteligent or helpful approach. But that's just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Greg F. Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:36 PM The facts of the case- medical and otherwise- have been made abundantly clear over and over and over again. Certain people- McGrath, Mary and many others- rather than disagree with the interpretation of these facts simply choose to ignore them or to pretend they don't exist. That's also not an overly intelligent nor helpful approach. Lunatics like DeLay & Randall Terry deserve no notice whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:50 PM No one on Michael Schiavo's side has any certainty that I am aware of, and nor do I. That "certainty" criteria is a legal criteria, and the only people allowed by the courts to testify to the "certainty" criteria are medical doctors with a specialty in the area in question. Now, if Mary Garvey, who claims to be a medical professional herself if I am not mistaken (and possibly educated at the same medical school where Senator Bill Frist received his medical degree in making diagnoses via videotape), can't understand why the courts sided with the doctors who testified as state witnesses, rather than doctors who testified for the plaintiffs or doctors who testified for the respondents, then I guess she isn't even interested in what the objective medical consensus in this case was. Not only are the hysteria mongerers demanding we second guess Michael Schiavo, they are also demanding we second guess the medical opinions of many doctors who testified, and then second guess the legal system--all the way to the US Supreme Court FIVE TIMES. And you know what? I think anyone who buys a ticket to climb on THAT train ought to be ignored completely. This became a national obsession because the TV networks and talk radio made it one. They are the culprits who gave these nutcases, the Schiavos, the Randall Terrys, etc. the public bully pulpit. For absolutely free. At the expense of the news like the WMD report, etc etc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Ebbie Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:54 PM Last night on Nightline they said that 40 doctors had examined Ms. Schiavo and agreed with the diagnosis and prognosis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM OOPS! I meant to say (in my list of nutcases) the Schindlers, not the Schiavos. Here is the thing Ebbie. These lay people questioning the medical opinions of the country's leading medical experts in neurology, just plain don't give a shit. It's all about "faith" to them. Faith that they are right, even though the only "evidence" they present are the selectively edited videotapes shown over and over, which were provided by the Shindlers to the media. None of the people pontificating about Terri Schiavo being "starved to death" have any damn expertise or authority on which to base their emotional appeals. So they drag out shit like Michael Schiavo tried to murder her, and that is why she died. Or that her eyes were bleeding. Or that Michael Schiavo never did anything to get his wife rehabilitation and treatment after the settlement. All of which are lies. Honest to god, I don't know where this sort of thing is leading the US, besides over the cliff. How much longer can we function as a democracy with these snake charmers in control of the media? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:12 PM How much longer can we function as a democracy with these snake charmers in control of the media? I think that "democracy" horse left the barn a looooonnngg time ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM Stating an opinion while admitting that you could wrong is hardly being dogmatic, Carol. In fact, unless we admit a degree of doubt, I'm not sure that it counts as an opinion at all. Here's what the dictionary in front of me gives as the primary definition: opinion - 1. Judgement or belief based on grounds short of proof, provisional conviction, view held as probable... This whole thread is full of opinions, expressed in many cases with what appears to me (ie "what is in my opinion"), a unjustified degree of dogmatic certainty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM McGrath, it is dogmatic if one uses one's dogma to form an opinion rather than the facts. Since Mary has admitted that she doesn't have any facts, the only thing that could be informing her opinion is her dogma, as far as I can see. I would be interested in knowing her opinion after she has some command of the facts. But until then, I'll take what she has to say as dogma. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:28 PM Maybe you'll get your wish one day Carol C and America will be led by a group of Moslems instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM Part of what truly troubles me, is this expectation amongst the religious nutcases, ie the Shindlers, Randall Terry, the Right to Lifers, et al that there be a guarantee of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. There is never any such thing in these matters. We just all muddle through trying to what we feel is best, and what our loved ones would have wanted. A living will wouldn't have mattered to the Shindlers one iota, and they've said that. A videotape of her wishes wouldn't have mattered one iota to them either. Nor would an executed durable power of attorney for health care. They said a long time ago, it didn't matter what Terri wanted. They were fighting for what THEY wanted for Terri. And the money that her husband got in the settlement, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:39 PM That really is tosh, Carol - and that is pretty unusual from you. Mary said she didn't know all the facts, not enough to be certain sure. Nor do you. Nor do I. Nor does anyone, in a case like this, including the family, the judges, the doctors, the media and of course tye politicians. That's the kind of world we live in, and always have lived in. Not having all the facts, we make our judgement about what we believe is more likely. And that is an opinion. Sometimes it's a strong opinion, sometimes it's a wrong opinion. Sometimes it's both strong and wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Wesley S Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:40 PM Don't forget that there is bound to be a "movie of the week" out of all of this. I just wonder who will be the first to put it out ? The parents ? The husband ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Once Famous Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:43 PM I'll vote for the Judges. Or the lawyer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM I know enough about the case based on the facts to know what most of what she has said in her post is not based on facts, McGrath. So it's not as much bunkum as you might want to think. Mary is getting her information from people who are about as dogmatic as it is possible to be (not unlike the Muslim Ayatollahs, in their fundamentalism), and who are attempting to use Mary Schiavo's case in order to solidify their control of the government of my country. And I would not like members of any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. shaping any kind of public policy in this country. This last bit is for both McGrath as well as Martin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM Oops. Tosh, not bunkum. My mistake. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:25 PM By the way, McGrath, just to give you an idea just how far these people intend to go with this extremist religious agenda, Tom DeLay, who "murdered" his own mother in the same way he is accusing Terri Schiavo's husband of "murdering" his wife, has said that the judiciary (by virtue of having ruled as it has consistantly, both "conservative" as well as "liberal" judges) is out of control, a runaway judiciary, and it will have to be punished for it, and brought into line with the agenda of the religious right in this country. The judiciary is supposed to be independent. The fact that the "conservative" judges ruled consistently in agreement with the more "liberal" judges supports the idea that in this case, the judiciary did, indeed, act independently. Tom DeLay and his fundamentalist buddies don't want an independent judiciary. They want a judiciary that will do their bidding, whatever that might be. If you think the US has been out of line on human rights issues up to now, you just wait and see how appallingly bad they will get if the religious right in the US has complete control of the judiciary. And make no mistake... that is exactly what they intend to have happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM I would not like members of any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. shaping any kind of public policy in this country. That's surely a bit drastic. For good or ill, wouldn't that exclude most of the population of your country? That would probably be true in most countries, for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: CarolC Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM Yes. I worded that badly. I should have said that I would not like any religious groups, or the dogma of any religions to be what is used to shape any public policy in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Big Mick Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM I don't believe that the liberal Jews on this forum speak for Jews as a whole. Nor do I believe that Gibson speaks for Jews. I believe that Jews are a divergent group, with many different points of origin, many cultural differences, and many political opinions. I think that I can find plenty of evidence to show that the Jewish American communities in New York and Chicago, as well as other places, have supported many liberal causes. My guess would be that they would be split on this issue. Gibson and Zeller simply represent their own view, nothing more. The settlement received by Michael Schiavo was virtually used up in providing care for Terri. If he were in it for the money, he would have accepted the second offer of the money from a few weeks ago that was offered by a wealthy individual. There is no evidence to support any other conclusion other than that he felt strongly about honoring his wife's wishes. The easy way, in the face of all this, would have been for him to sign off as her guardian and turn it over to his in-laws. He could have done that and been free to pursue his life. His Mother in Law even encouraged him to do so. I agree with GUEST from the great north, this is a case of a man determined to do what he felt his wife wanted. A pox on the rest. Especially the politicians who leached onto the situation. In pursuit of their heartless agenda, they put their colleagues in a bad place and forced them to vote on a matter that had no business being before them. Political gain and conservative agenda pushers used this family and their sadness for their own ends. As a Christian, I am certain they will answer for that one day. As a voter, I urge everyone to help that day to come soon. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,brucie Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:31 PM Is the woman dead yet or not? If so, when does she get to rest in peace? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:15 PM She is at peace, brucie. She's dead. It's the living who aren't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Peace Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:37 PM True, GUEST, too true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:42 PM Actually, I'm guessing that Michael Schiavo is probably finding his way to some peace now. He was very smart to just move into the hospice and stay above the fray. He looks classier to me all the time. I don't think the parents were sincere. I thought, every time I watched them on TV, especially the mother, that they had been rehearsing their performances for the camera. It seemed to me they looked very coached. And when they reached the point where their grief began to catch up with them, the assholes they hired, like Randall Terry and the other "priestly" circus ringleaders, took over spewing venom. All I can think is their bitterness and hatred must have made them seriously twisted people, to shame and humiliate their daughter the way they have in recent weeks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:45 PM Judge Greer, the Florida appeals court judge now receiving death threats for deciding in favor of Mr. Schiavo, has been described by the N.Y. Times as a conservative southern Baptist and a strong opponent of abortion. Deepak Chopra notably commented that Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube "was not prolonging her life, it was prolonging her death." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:49 PM Yeah, funny thing about the judge. His church ran him out of the congregation on a rail. Nice bunch of "faithful" there, don't ya think? Driving someone out of the congregation because you are pissed off with a decision they made as a judge? Gotta love the faithful. They are nothing if not consistently hypocritical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: GUEST Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:08 PM From Associated Press today: "And, her iconization was already well under way. The Internet auction site eBay was featuring Terri Schiavo cuff links at a starting bid of $9.95. Her family said it intends to make her the face of a disability-rights and end-of-life care movement." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Don Firth Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM "If you think the US has been out of line on human rights issues up to now, you just wait and see how appallingly bad they will get if the religious right in the US has complete control of the judiciary. And make no mistake... that is exactly what they intend to have happen." Having kept my gimlet eyes on the activities and intentions of the religious right for some time now (decades, in fact), I have to share Carol's apprehension. These people are the ones who want a huge, index of books pulled from library shelves (Catcher in the Rye [four-letter word implied, even if not spelled out], the whole Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan series [Tarzan and Jane, living together in their tree-house, were not married], the Lord of the Rings series [wizards], the Harry Potter series [wizards and witches as heroes], and huge mounds of non-fiction). They also get very upset by movies like "Bambi" (talking animals), children's television shows like the Teletubbies (Tinky Winky speaks with a boy's voice, but he wears purple, which they seem to think is a "gay" color, and they think the magic bag he sometimes carries looks like a purse) and SpongeBob SquarePants, whom they also claim to have reason to think is "gay." They are constantly trying to get courses pulled from schools and universities (many science courses, particularly anything that has to do with evolution, anthropology, and cosmology), and a whole range of literature and philosophy courses, and they work like beavers to get their own people on school boards so they can dictate curricula. And, among other things, they want to supervise what goes on in bedrooms all over the country—all over the world, if they can manage it—and control your coming into the world and your going out of it. And as long as you behave they way they want you to, you can bloody-well starve to death in between those two events. The reason that they have not been totally successful in achieving the things they want is that they have been blocked by the judiciary (even most truly conservative judges) and its general tendency to follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But now, they're trying to work it from the top. They have secret agents in the U. S. government. But not really all that secret, if you're paying attention: little sweeties like Tom DeLay in congress, and—I could lay out a whole list, but this post would run to several screens if I did, and you can do that just as well as I can, so let's just leap to the top, okay—George W. Bush in the White House. Make no mistake, the spirit of the Taliban, the spirit of Cotton Mather, and the spirit of the Inquisition, is still very much alive in the world. I know, Doug. "The sky is falling!!" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: robomatic Date: 02 Apr 05 - 12:07 AM As far as Ms. Schiavo goes, I am tempted to say that ten years ago there may have been 'doubt'. At this stage there was no 'doubt'. Let's see if you still have 'doubt' after the autopsy. Again, Terri didn't suffer. She had long since departed. Her parents and her husband suffered, and Lord protect Michael Schiavo from the vengeance of the self-righteous. Meanwhile, this chazzerai is nothing new. This is American culture as usual, since the colony was a pup. Power of the press, phenomenon of the publicized. I'm not worried about our democracy, which may be doomed. That hasn't changed since the beginning either. Democracy is probable and as Leonard Cohen sang: "Democracy is coming to the U.S.A." Martin Gibson has announced that Martin Gibson is a fictional character. So either he is a Jew who is a fiction, which is a finite probability, or it is a fiction that he's a Jew, which is an infinite possility (and devoutly to be wished). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace From: Greg F. Date: 02 Apr 05 - 06:36 PM Or, much more likely, he's a real asshole animating a fictional character. |
