BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 06:36 PM

Or, much more likely, he's a real asshole animating a fictional character.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 12:07 AM

As far as Ms. Schiavo goes, I am tempted to say that ten years ago there may have been 'doubt'. At this stage there was no 'doubt'.

Let's see if you still have 'doubt' after the autopsy.

Again, Terri didn't suffer. She had long since departed. Her parents and her husband suffered, and Lord protect Michael Schiavo from the vengeance of the self-righteous.

Meanwhile, this chazzerai is nothing new. This is American culture as usual, since the colony was a pup. Power of the press, phenomenon of the publicized.

I'm not worried about our democracy, which may be doomed. That hasn't changed since the beginning either. Democracy is probable and as Leonard Cohen sang: "Democracy is coming to the U.S.A."

Martin Gibson has announced that Martin Gibson is a fictional character. So either he is a Jew who is a fiction, which is a finite probability, or it is a fiction that he's a Jew, which is an infinite possility (and devoutly to be wished).

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

"If you think the US has been out of line on human rights issues up to now, you just wait and see how appallingly bad they will get if the religious right in the US has complete control of the judiciary. And make no mistake... that is exactly what they intend to have happen."

Having kept my gimlet eyes on the activities and intentions of the religious right for some time now (decades, in fact), I have to share Carol's apprehension.

These people are the ones who want a huge, index of books pulled from library shelves (Catcher in the Rye [four-letter word implied, even if not spelled out], the whole Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan series [Tarzan and Jane, living together in their tree-house, were not married], the Lord of the Rings series [wizards], the Harry Potter series [wizards and witches as heroes], and huge mounds of non-fiction). They also get very upset by movies like "Bambi" (talking animals), children's television shows like the Teletubbies (Tinky Winky speaks with a boy's voice, but he wears purple, which they seem to think is a "gay" color, and they think the magic bag he sometimes carries looks like a purse) and SpongeBob SquarePants, whom they also claim to have reason to think is "gay." They are constantly trying to get courses pulled from schools and universities (many science courses, particularly anything that has to do with evolution, anthropology, and cosmology), and a whole range of literature and philosophy courses, and they work like beavers to get their own people on school boards so they can dictate curricula.

And, among other things, they want to supervise what goes on in bedrooms all over the country—all over the world, if they can manage it—and control your coming into the world and your going out of it. And as long as you behave they way they want you to, you can bloody-well starve to death in between those two events.

The reason that they have not been totally successful in achieving the things they want is that they have been blocked by the judiciary (even most truly conservative judges) and its general tendency to follow the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

But now, they're trying to work it from the top. They have secret agents in the U. S. government. But not really all that secret, if you're paying attention:   little sweeties like Tom DeLay in congress, and—I could lay out a whole list, but this post would run to several screens if I did, and you can do that just as well as I can, so let's just leap to the top, okay—George W. Bush in the White House.

Make no mistake, the spirit of the Taliban, the spirit of Cotton Mather, and the spirit of the Inquisition, is still very much alive in the world.

I know, Doug. "The sky is falling!!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:08 PM

From Associated Press today:

"And, her iconization was already well under way. The Internet auction site eBay was featuring Terri Schiavo cuff links at a starting bid of $9.95. Her family said it intends to make her the face of a disability-rights and end-of-life care movement."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, funny thing about the judge. His church ran him out of the congregation on a rail. Nice bunch of "faithful" there, don't ya think? Driving someone out of the congregation because you are pissed off with a decision they made as a judge?

Gotta love the faithful. They are nothing if not consistently hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:45 PM

Judge Greer, the Florida appeals court judge now receiving death threats for deciding in favor of Mr. Schiavo, has been described by the N.Y. Times as a conservative southern Baptist and a strong opponent of abortion.

Deepak Chopra notably commented that Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube "was not prolonging her life, it was prolonging her death."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:42 PM

Actually, I'm guessing that Michael Schiavo is probably finding his way to some peace now. He was very smart to just move into the hospice and stay above the fray. He looks classier to me all the time.

I don't think the parents were sincere. I thought, every time I watched them on TV, especially the mother, that they had been rehearsing their performances for the camera. It seemed to me they looked very coached. And when they reached the point where their grief began to catch up with them, the assholes they hired, like Randall Terry and the other "priestly" circus ringleaders, took over spewing venom.

All I can think is their bitterness and hatred must have made them seriously twisted people, to shame and humiliate their daughter the way they have in recent weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:37 PM

True, GUEST, too true.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:15 PM

She is at peace, brucie. She's dead. It's the living who aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST,brucie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:31 PM

Is the woman dead yet or not? If so, when does she get to rest in peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM

I don't believe that the liberal Jews on this forum speak for Jews as a whole. Nor do I believe that Gibson speaks for Jews. I believe that Jews are a divergent group, with many different points of origin, many cultural differences, and many political opinions. I think that I can find plenty of evidence to show that the Jewish American communities in New York and Chicago, as well as other places, have supported many liberal causes. My guess would be that they would be split on this issue. Gibson and Zeller simply represent their own view, nothing more.

The settlement received by Michael Schiavo was virtually used up in providing care for Terri. If he were in it for the money, he would have accepted the second offer of the money from a few weeks ago that was offered by a wealthy individual. There is no evidence to support any other conclusion other than that he felt strongly about honoring his wife's wishes. The easy way, in the face of all this, would have been for him to sign off as her guardian and turn it over to his in-laws. He could have done that and been free to pursue his life. His Mother in Law even encouraged him to do so.

I agree with GUEST from the great north, this is a case of a man determined to do what he felt his wife wanted.

A pox on the rest. Especially the politicians who leached onto the situation. In pursuit of their heartless agenda, they put their colleagues in a bad place and forced them to vote on a matter that had no business being before them. Political gain and conservative agenda pushers used this family and their sadness for their own ends. As a Christian, I am certain they will answer for that one day. As a voter, I urge everyone to help that day to come soon.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM

Yes. I worded that badly. I should have said that I would not like any religious groups, or the dogma of any religions to be what is used to shape any public policy in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:34 PM

I would not like members of any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. shaping any kind of public policy in this country.

That's surely a bit drastic. For good or ill, wouldn't that exclude most of the population of your country? That would probably be true in most countries, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 06:25 PM

By the way, McGrath, just to give you an idea just how far these people intend to go with this extremist religious agenda, Tom DeLay, who "murdered" his own mother in the same way he is accusing Terri Schiavo's husband of "murdering" his wife, has said that the judiciary (by virtue of having ruled as it has consistantly, both "conservative" as well as "liberal" judges) is out of control, a runaway judiciary, and it will have to be punished for it, and brought into line with the agenda of the religious right in this country.

The judiciary is supposed to be independent. The fact that the "conservative" judges ruled consistently in agreement with the more "liberal" judges supports the idea that in this case, the judiciary did, indeed, act independently. Tom DeLay and his fundamentalist buddies don't want an independent judiciary. They want a judiciary that will do their bidding, whatever that might be. If you think the US has been out of line on human rights issues up to now, you just wait and see how appallingly bad they will get if the religious right in the US has complete control of the judiciary. And make no mistake... that is exactly what they intend to have happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:58 PM

Oops. Tosh, not bunkum. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 05:54 PM

I know enough about the case based on the facts to know what most of what she has said in her post is not based on facts, McGrath. So it's not as much bunkum as you might want to think. Mary is getting her information from people who are about as dogmatic as it is possible to be (not unlike the Muslim Ayatollahs, in their fundamentalism), and who are attempting to use Mary Schiavo's case in order to solidify their control of the government of my country.

And I would not like members of any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. shaping any kind of public policy in this country. This last bit is for both McGrath as well as Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:43 PM

I'll vote for the Judges. Or the lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:40 PM

Don't forget that there is bound to be a "movie of the week" out of all of this. I just wonder who will be the first to put it out ? The parents ? The husband ?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:39 PM

That really is tosh, Carol - and that is pretty unusual from you.

Mary said she didn't know all the facts, not enough to be certain sure. Nor do you. Nor do I. Nor does anyone, in a case like this, including the family, the judges, the doctors, the media and of course tye politicians. That's the kind of world we live in, and always have lived in.

Not having all the facts, we make our judgement about what we believe is more likely. And that is an opinion.   Sometimes it's a strong opinion, sometimes it's a wrong opinion. Sometimes it's both strong and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM

Part of what truly troubles me, is this expectation amongst the religious nutcases, ie the Shindlers, Randall Terry, the Right to Lifers, et al that there be a guarantee of ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY.

There is never any such thing in these matters. We just all muddle through trying to what we feel is best, and what our loved ones would have wanted.

A living will wouldn't have mattered to the Shindlers one iota, and they've said that. A videotape of her wishes wouldn't have mattered one iota to them either. Nor would an executed durable power of attorney for health care. They said a long time ago, it didn't matter what Terri wanted. They were fighting for what THEY wanted for Terri.

And the money that her husband got in the settlement, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:28 PM

Maybe you'll get your wish one day Carol C and America will be led by a group of Moslems instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM

McGrath, it is dogmatic if one uses one's dogma to form an opinion rather than the facts. Since Mary has admitted that she doesn't have any facts, the only thing that could be informing her opinion is her dogma, as far as I can see. I would be interested in knowing her opinion after she has some command of the facts. But until then, I'll take what she has to say as dogma.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM

Stating an opinion while admitting that you could wrong is hardly being dogmatic, Carol.

In fact, unless we admit a degree of doubt, I'm not sure that it counts as an opinion at all. Here's what the dictionary in front of me gives as the primary definition: opinion - 1. Judgement or belief based on grounds short of proof, provisional conviction, view held as probable...

This whole thread is full of opinions, expressed in many cases with what appears to me (ie "what is in my opinion"), a unjustified degree of dogmatic certainty.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:12 PM

How much longer can we function as a democracy with these snake charmers in control of the media?

I think that "democracy" horse left the barn a looooonnngg time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:05 PM

OOPS! I meant to say (in my list of nutcases) the Schindlers, not the Schiavos.

Here is the thing Ebbie. These lay people questioning the medical opinions of the country's leading medical experts in neurology, just plain don't give a shit. It's all about "faith" to them. Faith that they are right, even though the only "evidence" they present are the selectively edited videotapes shown over and over, which were provided by the Shindlers to the media. None of the people pontificating about Terri Schiavo being "starved to death" have any damn expertise or authority on which to base their emotional appeals. So they drag out shit like Michael Schiavo tried to murder her, and that is why she died. Or that her eyes were bleeding. Or that Michael Schiavo never did anything to get his wife rehabilitation and treatment after the settlement.

All of which are lies.

Honest to god, I don't know where this sort of thing is leading the US, besides over the cliff. How much longer can we function as a democracy with these snake charmers in control of the media?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:54 PM

Last night on Nightline they said that 40 doctors had examined Ms. Schiavo and agreed with the diagnosis and prognosis.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:50 PM

No one on Michael Schiavo's side has any certainty that I am aware of, and nor do I. That "certainty" criteria is a legal criteria, and the only people allowed by the courts to testify to the "certainty" criteria are medical doctors with a specialty in the area in question.

Now, if Mary Garvey, who claims to be a medical professional herself if I am not mistaken (and possibly educated at the same medical school where Senator Bill Frist received his medical degree in making diagnoses via videotape), can't understand why the courts sided with the doctors who testified as state witnesses, rather than doctors who testified for the plaintiffs or doctors who testified for the respondents, then I guess she isn't even interested in what the objective medical consensus in this case was.

Not only are the hysteria mongerers demanding we second guess Michael Schiavo, they are also demanding we second guess the medical opinions of many doctors who testified, and then second guess the legal system--all the way to the US Supreme Court FIVE TIMES.

And you know what? I think anyone who buys a ticket to climb on THAT train ought to be ignored completely.

This became a national obsession because the TV networks and talk radio made it one. They are the culprits who gave these nutcases, the Schiavos, the Randall Terrys, etc. the public bully pulpit. For absolutely free. At the expense of the news like the WMD report, etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:36 PM

The facts of the case- medical and otherwise- have been made abundantly clear over and over and over again. Certain people- McGrath, Mary and many others- rather than disagree with the interpretation of these facts simply choose to ignore them or to pretend they don't exist.

That's also not an overly intelligent nor helpful approach.

Lunatics like DeLay & Randall Terry deserve no notice whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:08 PM

I respect that Mary cares. I don't think that stating an opinion on something that you don't know anything about is a very inteligent or helpful approach. But that's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM

Mary Garvey's opinion was from the heart. That's better than all of the Internet sites you just shove in people's faces CarolC claiming they are truthful and justify your life in a tin can existence.

I commend Mary Garvey for her heartfelt pure opinion and CarolC, you should only have half of her humanistic view.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM

Stating an opinion about something when one has just admitted to not having much information on the subject can hardly be categorized as undogmatic, McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:42 PM

I think discussion about what is and what is not antisemitism doesn't really belong on this thread, especially since there is another thread up and running specifically about that, and I haven't recognised any examples of it on this thread. There've been a fair amount of flirting with bigotry, but not of that particular variety. Not that I've seen anyway - I just scroll past any posts without names, of course.

...................

I wish more people were able to adopt mary garvey's undogmatic approach in that last post - there's too much certainty about things we don't know, and too much selectivity about the things we do know, to bolster whatever side we have decided to come down on.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM

Before her husband gave up on her ever recovering, he took her to clinics and specialists, having a procedure implanted in her brain that works for some people but did not for her, and for therapy and consultations. He did this for SEVEN years. He finally accepted the word of DOCTORS that the case was hopeless, and went on with his own life as Ms Schiavo's parents advised him to do. Despite the bitterness of the struggle between her parents and her husband, her parents acknowledge that they urged him to move on.

What is there here for any of us to second guess??

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

Nevertheless, I think the people at those publications would find your posts most enlightening, Martin. Might make them think twice about taking anything you say seriously on the subject of antisemitism, though. In fact, I would be willing to bet money that after reading a couple of week's wort of your postings, they would tell you to shut up and leave them alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:31 PM

Mary, you saw what they wanted you to see in that brief clip, and they knew you would assume some sentient presence in what were in fact a few reflex moves, pure lower brain stem stuff. That was apparently a tiny reflex edited from a four hour tape of her motionless vacant gaze. By surgically inserting a device through her abdomen into her stomach they were prolonging a state that, before the type of surgery was possible, would have rapidly resulted in the death of a woman who couldn't eat or drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: mg
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:19 PM

She was not dying..she was profoundly brain damaged...and what I think of as being in a pvs is not what I would call what I saw onthe few TV clips I saw..of course I might not be talking about the official definition...I was very inclined to side with the husband up to a point, but there are too many questions..I don't know the truth of the matter but it has been claimed he wouldn't allow window shades open, feeding her when she was able to swallow, taking her outside in the sunshine...we are talking as though she were dying. She was not.   We do not need fancy machines to drip water into someone. It does not have to be IV. I am not for artificially prolonging life, especially terminal life, especially where there is severe pain, which there should never be..if morphine doesn't stop it, there are surgeries that could...but we have to know the facts and talk through the facts...that this is a situation of a handicapped, permanently handicapped person being forced to die of thirst. I have studied neuroanatomy etc. and I don't know what is what here..but I surely would not claim that someone with brain damage could not feel pain...has she had even simple tests to determine that? g

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:07 PM

Martin Gibson only exists here at Mudcat for your drinking and dining pleasure.

But you knew that.

He is a fictional web forum character who shows and brings out the worst in radical liberal America.

He is succeeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM

I read a lot of Jewish periodicals. It's time some of them were notified of the rampant anti-semitsm that exists on web forums and particularly on Mudcat. Time for the big expose, pals.

Make sure you tell the people you contact at those periodicals your screen name (Martin Gibson) when you do that. I'm sure they'll want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

jews make some Mudcatters uncomfortable, especially ones who say it truthfully.

Some liberal Jews here certainly do not represent the feelings of all Jews. I would bet any money on it that most of them are Jewish in name only.

I know quite a few liberal minded people but the liberal Mudcat whiners sure doesn't represent them.

they laugh at the mindset you babble about.

Terry Schiavo died in 13 days by starvation that could could have been prevented by people with any conscience.

But I wouldn't expect that from baby killers.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM

Saul and Art make good points, and backup my resistance to letting the two outspoken antisocial members attempt to shield their misbehavior behind a religious cloak. The behavior and the cloak are ill-matched, and in fact, unrelated.

A priest on a morning news program today kept wildly accusing those who let Terri die of being "murderers." Then he would say "we don't want to make them enemies, we want to talk with them, but we must call them what the are, 'murderers.'" This is as good an example of giving with the right hand and taking with the left as I've ever seen. He has no intention whatsoever of talking with those he would accuse. He has his agenda in mind and is grandstanding as long as the news programs will let him.

A lot of thoughtful people are directing their prayers and/or good wishes toward the Schiavos. Those are sufficient to release Terri's spirit and comfort those who were carrying out her wishes, much to the chagrin of the rest.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:36 AM

And BTW, I opposed the Iraq war, didn't vote for either war mongering candidate for president, am opposed to capital punishment, and am willing to fight like hell for my loved ones to receive whatever medical care we deem appropriate, as we did in the case of my mother.

But in this case, I saw no evidence of anything but a loving husband doing his best in a very, very bad situation for his wife.

The parents, on the other hand...

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM

Another important thing to remember--Terri Schiavo had health insurance. People who don't have health insurance are most often the first ones to have "life support" removed.

But nobody bats an eyelash about poor people being "starved to death" and "murdered" do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:49 AM

According to the doctors, a feeding tube, which requires surgery, is a medical treatment. Hydration, which requires an IV, is a medical treatment. Belief that medical procedures aren't medical treatment is the sign of someone who is allowing their fear of dying, their religious beliefs or whatever, to trump reason.

These are medical procedures that were only invented in the last 25-30 years. In fact, I saw a rather interesting interview this week with the inventor of the feeding tube.

So McGrath, let me ask you this. If Terri Schiavo was in her condition prior to the invention of medical feeding and hydration treatments, would you favor her being force fed by spoonfeeding and forcing liquids on her to keep her alive? Even though she couldn't swallow?

See, here is the thing. People know so little about the death process nowadays, and are so terrified of all things associated with death, they are clueless. Towards the end of life, one's swallowing ability frequently goes. That is one of the body's natural means of "murdering" itself (to use the hysteria mongerers' language). Ask anyone who works with the dying, and they will tell you that many people either consciously refuse to take liquids and food (as my great aunt did when she didn't want to live any longer), or the body's ability to swallow food and water leaves.

So, if you want to call that murder, or use other hysterical language like "starving to death" and "dying of thirst" go right ahead. It just shows how ignorant, fearful and irrational you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:44 AM

Taking nourishment in concentrated form through a tube penetrating the skin and stomach walls most certainly requires medical intervention.

The Catholic Church is on both sides of this issue. It is consistent with Catholic values and practice to suspend treatment that will sustain bodily function when that is ALL it will sustain.

Last night on PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer they trotted out Father Richard John Neuhaus to make the case for the Schindler's side. He misrepresented the condition of Terri as if she was disabled. He is also the apologist that was trotted out four years ago to defend the Catholic hierarchy against the growing accusations of covering up priestly abuse.

I heard this morning that the Pope has decided not to go to hospital in this his latest bout with life threatening health problems. His obtaining sustenance through a feeding tube is in aide of his mental facilities and comfort level, and a far cry from keeping the heart ticking for 15 years on a body whose mind has long since 'left the building'. Nevertheless it is apparent that there is already a limitation to how far they are going to take 'heroic' measures in his treatment. And mentally he has a lot more going on than Terri did.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:28 AM

Feeding is not medical treatment. Anyone who is deprived of nourishment and liquid is going to die. The term "allowed to die" in this context is a very creative use of language, but I feel "caused to die" is a more accurate way of putting it.

Hysteria is catching, but, as saulgoldie said there, it does not pay any useful part in discussion. What it does do, of course, is provide a mechanism for changing the subject, and enable a move to the possibly more comfortable territory of personalised squabbling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 09:03 AM

Please note that neither MG nor RS should be the basis for any sweeping generalizations about Jews than Timothy McVeigh should be for Christians, or even, dare I say, Osama Bin Laden the basis for assessment of ALL Muslims. And now, back to the topic at hand.

If this travesty had happened 50 years ago, she would have died very quickly and without fanfare. It should also be noted (as many here have) that cases of patients being allowed to die without heroic, unnatural intervention happen allthetime without fanfare or 24-hour news coverage whether or not there is any real "news" and certainly without all manner of legislative, executive, and judicial interference.

In order to spare my relatives and cherished friends the pain and suffering experienced by Michael Schiavo, I will very shortly find and fill out all the necessary papers and filings so that any and all of the entities who should know of my wishes knows and is obliged to respect my wishes.

I am astounded, too (but not altogether surprised, to tell you the truth) that most of the major pontificators on this matter fully endorse the war in Iraq, capital punishment, the wholesale slaughter of nature's other species, while simultaneously denouncing the right of everyone to adequate medical care so that they DON'T end up critical and vegetative.

All of this (and many other "life" issues) reminds me that humanity has achieved the tools for interference with nature's will faster than it has achieved the moral sense to deal with it.

BTW, now as ever, personal attacks in the place of thoughtful and logical arguments do not enhance the discussion; they only reflect on the maker of such "points." Remember that a good argument from an idiot is no less valid because it does not come from a genius. Similarly, a genius can make specious arguments that make him or her sound the fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Wesley S
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

Ditto to what Mick said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM

Art, my post doesn't indicate that I think only two Jewish folks are here. It just speaks to these two. I believe that any reasonable person, Jewish or otherwise, could only arrive at the same conclusion.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:37 AM

I think the Vatican said what it did about the feeding tube for two reasons. 1) That position had the support of the US Right to Life movement, and 2) they were prepared to use feeding tubes to keep the pope artificially alive.

I see from McGrath's links that he is on the Schindler side of hysteria mongering about death.

It sounds to me as if Michael Schiavo had it all well under control, and that his wife did, in the end, die the way we all would like to go. Peacefully slipped away.

He certainly fought the good fight for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit--Terri Schiavo--rest in peace
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 08:20 AM

Why did the Vatican say it was wrong to remove her feeding tube? Doesn't that intervene with nature. Doesn't contraception intervene with nature? Am I saying what I think I'm saying?

Sal