Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 21 - 01:43 PM

Good programme

Subject: Peter Redgrove: Radio Poems - Obeah Oss -
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 21 - 01:57 PM


Peter Redgrove: Radio Poems - Obeah Oss -

This 1998 BBC programme comes up with availability to hear once in a while :
Poet Peter Redgrove offers a personal view of the extraordinary May Day processions through the streets of Padstow in Cornwall. The poem is illustrated with recordings of the Obby Oss made at the time and rare archive sounds from the BBC vaults.

Producer - Tim Dee.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000ys82

Plenty of song.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Jun 20 - 02:27 AM

Azizi: As a real outsider, may I respectfully ask the meaning of "Obby Oss"?

Is this the origin of the phrase "Hobby horse?"

Some say obby is from the Gaelic obann for “swift” or “fast”.

Hobellarii were the old European barge toters and bale lifters of their day. The word, I'm told, had the same “yoke,” “collar” or “harness” usage as the earlier helcium (helciarii.) Somewhere along the way the beast of burden switched from men to horses.

Hobbler
Etymology
Old English also hobeler, Old French hobelier, Latin hobellarius. See hobby (“a horse”).

Noun
hobbler (plural hobblers)

One who hobbles.

(Britain, historical) One who by his tenure was to maintain a horse for military service; a kind of light-horseman in the Middle Ages who was mounted on a hobby.

An unlicensed pilot, casual dock labourer, etc.

A man who tows a canal boat with a rope.


Also: Hoveller
Noun
hoveller (plural hovellers)

(Britain, dialect) One who assists in saving life and property from a wreck; a coast boatman.

A small boat used on the coast.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 May 09 - 03:59 PM

There have been several osses over the years - there was a white one called the Peace Oss, when the soldiers got back from WW1 and there are photos of it somewhere but I think it only lasted the one Mayday. I imagine by the end of the day the white 'skirt' would have been filthy, having been swung around and dragged in the dirt all day.
But there are children's osses too, as well as the two main ones.
When I was there in 1972 the scouts had their own one and there was another even smaller one, about the size for 8-9year-olds.
The Red Oss is also called the Old Oss and is supposed to be the original faction. The Blue Oss was the Temperence Oss (Blue ribbon) but today there's just as much alcohol involved in both sides.
The Halanto has been covered on other threads here and there has been much debate on the meaning of the word. Nobody really knows for sure - maybe there were Cornish settlers who took the song to America in the early days - it's possible, but my experience has been that the early settlers in NZ just left all that stuff behind in the 'old country' and knowledge of it had died out within a generation. My grandmother was a first generation kiwi and she knew nothing about Padstow or Mayday, even tho' her sister, born on Mayday, was named May, and her grandmother, who ended her days living in the same house, was actually born in Padstow. My grandmother was almost 80 when I told her about it.
Jean Ritchie and George Pickow, have a film "Oss Oss Wee Oss", that shows some of the Padstow festivities but I don't know if there is anything similar for Helston (apart from the video we took).
You really need to experience it in person to fully appreciate it.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Cats
Date: 27 May 09 - 09:31 AM

There are 2 'Oss, the red or Old 'Oss and the blue or Peace 'Oss.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 09 - 09:20 AM

Thanks, Little Robyn for your response and for your links. Yes, I gathered from the pm I got from another Mudcat and from Cats and your comment that the author of that book was using quite a bit of creative license.

Robyn, your link to the celebration mentioned the Hal-and-Tow. Has there ever been any connection made to Hal and Tow and the American "heel and toe" plantation dance that became famous (maybe I should say "infamous") as the performance of the song "Jim Crow" or is this just a coincidence that those phrases sound the same?

**

Also, [and I ask this with all due respect' is there only one Obby Oss during the Padstow celebration, or could there be more than one man dressed up like Obby Oss?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Little Robyn
Date: 27 May 09 - 08:36 AM

Azizi, I think your novel has some very fanciful ideas that are not really based on fact - at least, not in Padstow.
The verses you quote don't ring any bells - the words of the May songs have changed a little over the years but not that much.
The Blue Oss song is here.
You are right about the instruments - maybe 150 years back there was a pipe and tabor playing the music but apart from 1972 and 1990, when I played recorder in the Blue Oss band, mostly the bands have a lot of squeeze boxes of varying sorts and sizes, and lots of loud drums going Boom ba ba boom all day long. There is a huge crowd and anyone trying to play a flute is likely to get their front teeth knocked out. By the end of the day, my recorder had been bumped into so many times, my lips were swollen and blood stained.
Some of the description in your book could relate to the Halanto at Helston on 8 May - the youths with sticks - branches, waving in the air and the girls with garlands in their hair, but it doesn't really sound like Padstow.
"the rabble of grotesque masks and caped bodies was drawing tighter and tighter, threatening them with pointy sticks, and the shrieking voices were all but piercing her ears..."
There's a little about Helston at this site.
There are photos here.
But the story sounds a little sinister - almost as if there's about to be a human sacrifice - 'virgins given to a sea monster' and in both Helston and Padstow, the atmosphere is very open and happy and not at all sinister. Yes, in Padstow there is death and resurrection but it's the Oss that dies, not any of the young girls and in the Halanto there is mock fighting - as St George fights the dragon and when St Michael chases off the fiend, but it's all good wholesome fun.
I think the author has combined a little bit of reality with a lot of imagination in order to make an interesting story.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 27 May 09 - 08:10 AM

I find it interesting that the colours of the Padtow "oss" are very similar to the colours used by the Bacup coconut dancers. Is this to do with the availability of colouring agents and pigments for paints in the past?
The Minehead sailors horse (not seen the town horse), in contrast, is predominantly hessian with circles painted on. I have heard it suggested that this is supposed to make it look like a Viking longboat as commonly depicted with shields arranged along the sides (which I'm also told is not correct!).

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 27 May 09 - 07:29 AM

Thanks for that response, Cats.

Another Mudcatter sent me a pm saying that the book's author may have seen a picture of Obby Oss, but little else in that book's passage was true to past and present customs. For instance, that Mudcatter noted that whistles, flutes and bodhrans are characteristic of Irish music and never had anything to do with the Obby Oss custom and besides, the musical instruments called bodhrans aren't even 100 years old, so they wouldn't have existed in the Jacobite period.

Also, that Mudcatter informed me that blacking up is or was associated with another Padstow celebration and wasn't ever practiced during May Day Obby Oss celebrations.

I very much appreciated receiving that private message. I'm sharing this information for the public record since other people who know very little about this celebration might happen upon this discussion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Cats
Date: 27 May 09 - 04:16 AM

There is no blacking up in May Day in Padstow. The tradition of being taken under thre Oss skirts is alive and well and is standing next to me. My neice was taken under the Old Oss skirts and within the year she was married and on My 1st the following year my great nephew was born. He does not yet know how very special he is but will when he goes to Padstow next year to spend his birthday there.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:49 PM

I viewed three of those videos from the link you provided today. Thanks.

I did note the black caped Obby Oss in the one YouTube video which was very much like the description in the book. And I also noted that there were snare drums and lots of accordions in those videos, but I didn't see or hear any flutes, fiddles, and whistles, and bodhrans-nor did I see any women wearing bluebell flowers and hazel twigs or men holding long pointy sticks (which I presume are phallic symbols). Furthermore, I didn't see any "grotesque masks and men wearing capes" that were mentioned in that novel. But this might mean that the celebrations had changed in details over time.

While that is interesting, what I'm most interested is information about the meaning of the rituals which probably can't be found by viewing videos unless that information is written in the video summary or readers write about it in their comments.

Prior to reading that chapter in that novel, for instance, I never thought of Obby Oss as a sea horse, and I didn't think about the celebration as having anything to do with the sea.

I know that I have expressed my opposition to the blackening up custom-which I didn't see in those videos by the way, but I shared those excerpts, and am asking those questions out of genuine interest-admittedly as an outsider- in how traditional customs continue and change, and what those customs mean to those who maintain them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:28 PM

Were they historically accurate?

I think a happy trawl through the various YouTube films from Padstow will answer that one, Azizi!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:05 PM

Here are more excerpts from the Melanie Jackson's novel Amarantha:

After this discussion between the young, handsome, mysterious Rector (the first person quoted) and Amarantha (the second voice quoted) , the actual scene with the Padstow villagers and the Obby Oss is given as such:

"Hmm... I hear drums" she said, prudently changing the subject. "Or is that thunder? Or perhaps the sea? I can smell it now.:

"Yes, there are drums. There will be a great deal of music today-flutes, whistles, fiddles and bodhrans. But above all, there will bedrums." Tamlane listened for a moment. I know this song. It is an ancient Kernow verse."

"What is it about? It seems a bit frantic."

"It is. Oddly enough, though, it is a love song." ...

Gold will fade. Silver will fade,
And velvets and silks, too.
Every known cloth will fade,
But not so my longing.

The sun will rise. The moon will rise.
The sea will rise up, too.
Winds will rise, and grass will rise,
But not the heart that's longing.

pp 124-125

-snip-

Amarantha and Tamlane arrive at the village and soon get separated in the midst of the crowd.

""Amarantha would have liked to know more about the dancers in the procession-the Teazers, her uncle had called them-but there was no chance to talk for the percussive beat of dancing feet and pounded drums filled the air and made the very earth beneath them seem to tremble with the blows.

Suddenly, the mob about them cheered and then began to sing, adding their voices to the musical din.

"What are we going to do?" the women asked?
And the men replied: Kill a little fish."
"How will you take it home?" the ladies cried.
In my belly!"
How wilyou eat it then?"
With my teeth and hands!

The mob surged swifty and renewed its wild cheering, waving long sticks in the air. Amarantha was pushed away from Tamane's side by a band of women..

"Stop! she commanded.Amarantha turned her head all about, but the masked and cloaked revelers were too close to permit her any view of her guardian...

The music changed, grew hypnotic and deafening. The mob began to chant.

Earth and water and fire and air-
Wind and flame and sea and stone-
Bold and blackthe Obby Oss comes!

Other young girls decked as sacrifices with wreathes of bluebells and hazel twigs. were herded into the street and ringed with chanting dancers. They were giggling so Amarantha assured herself that there was no need to be alarmed,but the rabble of grotesque masks and caped bodies was drawing tighter and tighter, threatening them with pointy sticks, and the shrieking voices were all but piercing her ears...

The Obby Oss comes!...The Obby Oss has come! Choose! Choose!

Something dark blotted out the sun. Amarantha spun around and was confronted by a midnight back monster... She had one moment to take in the fact that the beast looked a bit like Uncle Cyril's drawing of the horse god Epona and then the creature reared back and she was engulfed in its tattered, smothering skirts and a tangle of legs.

pp 127-129

-snip-

The story continues with Amarantha finally finding a way out of the "creature's bunting". She is reunited with the Rector Tamlane and tells him of her encounter with the Obby Oss. Tamlane said that because she was chosen by the Obby Oss "Legend says you shall have a child before the next Beltane".

And that's the end of that books account of the Padstow celebration.

I am respectfully sincerely interested in any opinions about these excerpts. Were they historically accurate?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 09 - 03:49 PM

Padstow 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCHvQzarkTE

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 03:31 PM

I happened to pick up a historical romantic novel from a used book store that includes a chapter about visiting Padstow and experiencing the May Day celebration. The novel is Amarantha by Melanie Jackson (New York, Dorchester Publishing Co; Leisure Books Edition, 2001).

I'm interested in what Mudcatters might make of these excerpts.

Here's the first one:

..."The Obby Oss is really more than a horse. A sea horse if that makes sense, though I do not understand why your uncle thinks of it as a Trojan Horse survival. As for the connection of the village to the sea, Padstow is a coastal town. The sea represents many things to the people who live there. It is their livelihood, the place where they see miraculous rebirth-and a place where some go to exile and even death. It is everything to them.

"Rebirth? From the sea? You surely do not mean like Jonah from the whale?"

"Yes, in a sense. He smiled. "For the farmer who lives inland, the Beltane fire is about renewing the land. But in Padstow, they must renew the sea as well. They do not sacrifice to an earth mother, but rather to the waters of the ocean that feeds them-hence the virgins given to the sea monster."

"Why a virgin girl, though? It seems so unfair. Why not a boy? Or a warrior? Or someone old and wise? Any of these would be a sacrifice."

"Because a virgin woman is a thing most precious and rare-and the most desired of the gods of renaissance. Only women can create life. Fair or not, that is the way of it. And the beast must be fed".

pp 122-123

-snip-

The book specifies no date for its actions but the former fiance of the main character, Amarantha, leaves her to join the Jacobite cause-so I suppose a date for that time can be determined.

I'll quote more of this book in my next post to this thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Teaser
Date: 18 May 05 - 07:33 PM

Excellent and intriguing research Robyn. I thought I'd got this one sorted but as you point out so aptly there can be many and varied theories on this subject. I Guess this is what makes this custom so special and unique. I for one are more than greatful to be able to play a small part (if only in a supportive role) in such a tremendous living tradition .
Any more information greatfully recieved.

OSS! OSS!
WI-HEE OSS!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:36 PM

And emmetts are ants - or tourists!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: breezy
Date: 18 May 05 - 11:54 AM

The Teazer is the person who also leads and dances in front of the Oss

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:06 AM

OK, Teaser, since you admit to being an emmett, I thought we should check Donald Rawe's book on the subject:

Many strangers to the town are mystified by the Mayers' cry 'Oss-Oss!' and the thunderous response from Padstonians of 'Wee Oss!' This 'war cry' seems to be a relic of Morris rather than of Padstow itself. Baring Gould quotes the dramatist John Fletcher (1579-1625) who in his play 'Women Pleased' wrote this speech for a Puritan character:
This beast of Babylon (the Hobby-horse) I'll ne'er back again,
His pace is sure prophane, and his lewd Wi-hees!'
The similarity between 'Wi-hees' and Wee Oss suggests that these are in fact two versions of the same cry.
Violet Alford (Folklore, 1939) interpreted it as meaning 'Come to us, Oss'.
Baring Gould (1889) reports 'Wee Oss! Follow my Hoss!' uttered in a peculiar tone.
Miss BC Spooner held 'Wee Oss' to be an equine imitatory whinny to encourage the Oss, and quoted an old Padstow woman as saying, 'He's pretty wheeing'.
But, comparing Fletcher's speech with Padstow practice, it seems certain that it was originally a cry to encourage the Oss to capture and mate symbolically with the woman he was pursuing.
Thurstan Peter says that 'O Wee Oss' was shouted in 1913 by everyone when the Oss pursued some 'victim'.
Miss Alford, in 1968 recorded that Swiss carnival hobbies recited poems and ended them with 'Whee-hee' and declares that traditionally, and as recorded by 'our Elizabethan dramatists' this should be answered by the female 'Ti-hee'.
The derivatation of 'Wee Oss' therefore appears to be from the horse-whinny.

So there, take your pick!
Oss Oss,
Wee Oss!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:52 PM

Sorry, I meant 'Steelers football team' instead of 'football time', but I guess that word works too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:47 PM

Teaser,
Sorry. Your name led me to believe you were kidding about that explanation.

And thanks for the invite.

I assume you are saying that I should try to experience subsequent May Day celebrations since this was has already come and gone, right?

At this moment in time, I live in Pennsylvania {Pittsburgh to be exact-best known for its Steelers football time and Pirates baseball team}. It therefore is very unlikely that I would ever journey to Padstow.

But who knows? Stranger things have happened.

Life is always full of possiblilites.




Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Teaser
Date: 17 May 05 - 06:13 PM

Azizi
I am not codding you on or even taking the pi~~ when I told you my understanding of the OSS! OSS! WEE OSS! call.
I have been attending the 1st.May at Padstow for the last thirty years at least and as yet have not come accross a more valid explanation but (and there's always a but). I am only an emmet from the Midlands, so what do I know? If there are any Padstonians out there who can verfy my theory or can tell me what they believe to be the true reason I along with Azizi would be only to pleased to know.

Azizi, I do not know where you dwell in this wide world, but if you have even half a chance of getting to Padstow on May Day GET THERE!!
OSS! OSS!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:39 PM

and I never thought that OSS! OSS! WEE OSS! had anything to do with inciting the horse to urinate.

LOL!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 16 May 05 - 11:32 PM

OSS! OSS! WEE OSS! means {come to} us horse! instead of small tiny horse?

Are you teasing, Teaser?

If you pardon the mixed metaphor, your story sounds fishy to me.

{smile}

****
BTW, I'd never heard about about this custom before coming to Mudcat. I appreciate those who have posted information about it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 May 05 - 01:07 PM

oi

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,teaser
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:19 PM

Aziz
Sorry i'm a bit late entering this conversation but i've only just sobered up from Padstow. But I fear you have been sold a Bum Steer (if you pardon the pun)
I was always lead to believe that the OSS! OSS! WEE OSS! call was nothing to do with a small horse or inciting the OSS to urinate, but a calling tradition It is considered lucky to be visited by the OSS. and indeed you can observe many of the locals and some visitors alike deliberatley going out of thier way to touch the OSS. So the call is used firstly OSS OSS to attract the OSS's attention followed by the cry WEE OSS! this is so because the Cornish people instead of sayin US say WE so the cry is calling the OSS to come to US. OSS OSS US OSS (in English)but dos'nt sound so good
PS. Excellent Night Singing this year Mew verses not heard before and no hanging around drinking. Shame about Seans happy b/day though
We'll call once more unto your house.... OSS OSS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:19 AM

Sorry, I did mean Minehead.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Cats
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:08 PM

There might have been some folkies from Padstow at Sidmouth last year, but the Oss most definitley wasn't. I think the Minehead Oss was though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: BB
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:28 PM

Certainly Minehead Hobby Horse is still going - but I don't think you'd get more than one in the Horse at a time! A few years ago there were at least three horses there, and there is much debate, I believe, about which is the 'traditional' one. I also believe there are only a few involved who actually live in Minehead, although, to be fair, back in the '60s, there were a number of accordion/melodeon players playing for the Old Oss in Padstow who weren't from there. They were called in by the Old Oss Party because there were so few Padstonians playing - a situation that, thankfully, has changed completely.

Minehead's celebrations go on for three days from 1st - 3rd May.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 May 05 - 08:23 AM

I'm sure the Sailor's Oss was at Sidmouth last year. Certainly a group from Padstow.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 May 05 - 08:02 AM

I know it's two counties away, but is the Minehead Hobby Horse still extant and how far does that tradition go back ?

I can always remember a British Railways map of South England which gave snippets of information about lots of places, referring to it's existence. That would have been in the 1950s.

At one time the members (I think there were 3 people inside it) used to turn at Sidmouth.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: BB
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:11 AM

It felt a little strange this year with a change of MC for the Old Oss Party, and Nigel Rowe gone, but a good one nevertheless. It wasn't as crowded as some years - I think many people may have thought it was on the Sunday - Padstow was heaving that day!

Interesting to note that all Ricky Stein's businesses were closed for the day, although I assume the hotels were still open! Whether that was him being altruistic or pragmatic remains to ponder.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 01:41 PM

just tolet u know padstows obby oss isan ancient festival apperently they used the obby ossto frighten away foreign boats from the harbour

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Little Robyn
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:55 PM

Cats, I believe the Birdhoods had land up toward Crugmeer or Tregirls. Would that make sense of the Park-O bit?
MuddleC - OI!
and Oss Oss,
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Cats
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

St Georges colours are red and white which are also the colours of the celtic sun god. Ursula Broadwood was, supposedly, the woman who brought out the Oss onto Stepper Point and danced with it there when there was about to be an invasion, French I think, but I'm not sure. When they saw this apparition on Stepper, they turned their boats and fled, thus ending what was to have been the last invasion of England.

See you may day

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST,Grace
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:43 AM

Yes that verse is correct.a few errors....ewe not yow and she died in her own park oh. also... oh where is he oh.Grace Trevan

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:09 PM

See that list of links to past discussions? Well...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Jacob B
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

As an American who has never had the good fortune to visit Padstow, I'd appreciate it if any of the experts in this thread could shed some light on the meaning of the song I know as The Padstow Mayers Song. As I know it, the verse goes:

Oh where is Saint George
Oh where is he now
He's out in his longboat
All on the salt sea oh
Up flies the kite
Down falls the lark, oh
Aunt Ursula Birdwood, she had an old yow
And it died in its own park, oh

Is that correct? What does it mean?

Jacob

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Moses
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:12 AM

Is that you, Breezy, above with the Chris Cross Guitar?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 04:26 PM

thank you 'muddle c'

thank goodness, I was beginning to worry

see you on the harbour for your prize.

I'll have a Chris Cross guitar.


but if its raining, the London Inn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 03:03 PM

'I'm going to adopt the same attitude, who cares how old the Oss is, I love it anyway.

Hear!! hear!!.

Dave Eyre'

Me too Dave.

But as for the living tradition ............. Who gets burned on the Lewes Bonfire?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Cats
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:29 PM

Night singing has always been the very best bit for me and always makes me cry without fail. It's the waiting in total silence and the single voice calling Unite Unite...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: BB
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:24 PM

Night-singing?   Magical - the sound of unaccompanied voices rising up at midnight! Great if you're outside the Golden Lion, but wonderful too if you're above it in the town, and hear it drifting up. Makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up just thinking about it!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 05:13 AM

Not a 19th century invention at all.

Thre is some information about St. Christopher and Hob Nob, here:

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/community/getfaq.php?id=273

and since a misunderstanding seems to have grown up let me stop it now. I am not denying the existence of hobby horses prior to the 19th Century, nor do I believe all folklore is a Victorian invention.

I do believe that each custom needs to be properly researched and investigated and merely re-iterating what other people have declared to be true is not evidence. I am happy to share my own knowledge - such as it is.

Let me quote another example. The Ancient Fire Ceremony that takes place at Allendale in Northumberland and the eve of New Year had a number of pre-christian connotations. It was even described (and some still describe it) as a remnant of a Baal Fire Ceremony - itself a contradiction in terms.

Shame when folkorist Venetia Newall pointed out that its origins were actually recorded at the time in the Hexham Courant of 1858 thus dating its beginning rather more accurately.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 01:43 AM

There's a hobby horse in Salisbury too. I remember him and the Salisbury giant in their folklore museum. Or was he a victorian invention?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: MuddleC
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 11:59 PM

oi - oi- oi !



-oggy




(wait for moon to revolve around earth again ......)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

I'm going to adopt the same attitude, who cares how old the Oss is, I love it anyway.

Hear!! hear!!.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Alexander
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:43 PM

Cats: If my credit's no longer any good with Lorraine and Alex Rickard at the Golden Lion, try asking if my brother Jim Ainscough is around and if so, tell him to buy the drinks. That will piss the old bastard off!! LOL

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: Alexander
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:38 PM

Thanks Folkiedave for the information on other carol sources. I'm off to look them up. Barbara? I'm going to adopt the same attitude, who cares how old the Oss is, I love it anyway. By the way the Cornish no longer call outsiders emmits, they call them piles. I asked one old Padstow man why, and he replied, "Cos they 'ang around in bunches, turn bright bloody red (sunburn) and they'm a pain in the arse!!" Trust the Cornish to bite the tourist hand that feeds them, huh? LOL General comment: What do others know about the Night Singing early on May Day in Padstow? This is the most touching Padstow tradition in my opinion. Cats: I'll be with you at the Golden Lion in spirit. Tell the Lorraine and Alex Rickard to pull you a pint or two or three and put them on my account. This thread is making me sooo homesick!!! Oss Oss!! WEE OSS!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow's Obby Oss
From: BB
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM

Someone overheard on Mayday in Padstow: 'What are they saying?' 'Oss, oss, we're off!'

In Combe Martin in North Devon where the Hobby Horse ceremony 'The Hunting of the Earl of Rone' was revived some thirty years ago, an attempt has been made not to call the Hobby Horse an 'oss, without success! People will insist on using the term, and there's nothing can be done about it!

As to pagan origins, Folkiedave's right, there is no evidence, and pagan origins of most folk customs are generally not believed by most of today's scholarly folklorists. And when it comes down to it, the participants generally don't give a damn about origins, although they may quote the pagan bit to keep outsiders happy when they enquire, because that's what is expected; what matters is how they feel about it NOW, the fact that they're having a bloody good time, and that it should continue from the past into the future.

Oss oss - not long now!

Barbara