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Origins: Barnsley Anthem
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Subject: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM At Barnsley Easter singaround Marc Dowding and Chris Harvey did a workshop on Harry Boardman Converstaion came round to the Barnsley Anthem "She's reight dahn in cellar 'oile where much slaights on winders' etc I said that the only person I'd heard sing this was Dave Burland and that I did not have any evidence to suggest that the song had been current in Yorkshire at any time. However Barnsley FC last guest was Robin Garside and he claims that the song is indeed from Yorkshire can anyone help with verse/trad sources etc (I know that Roy Palmer has it in one of his books) and I have it somewhere!! Ray Padgett |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Les from Hull Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM I knew this as: We're all down in t'cellar 'oil wi t'muck slapped on t'winders We've bont all our coil and we're agen bonning cinders If t'bum bailiff comes then 'e'll nivver find us 'Cos we're all down in t'cellar 'oil wi t'muck slapped on t'winders Fish and chips and vinegar, vinegar, vinegar Fish and chips and vinegar, vinegar, vinegar Pepper pepper pepper pot One bottle o' beer, two bottle o' beer Three bottle o' beer, four bottle o' beer Five bottle o' beer, six bottle o' beer Seven seven bottle o' beer We used to sing this in the Scouts, so I can claim this as genuine 'oral tradition'. God knows were it comes from, unless it's more common in Yorkshire then anyone really knew. I can't think that anyone connected with our Scout Troop had a Barnsley connection. As a bit of a party piece we added in a 'translation' if we were in the company of any of those unfortunate people who couldn't understand Tyke. We're all congregated together in the lower basement with dirt thickly accumulated upon the casements We have consumed by heat all our semi-bituminous fuel and we are know consuming by heat the waste products thereof If the officil debt collector should arrive, he won't be able to ascertain our location 'Cos... I assume it's not Hull stuff 'cos no one round here would think of rhyming find us with winders. 'ull vowels are much, much longer than that! See you soon! Les |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Michael Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM I learnt it from me dad when I were a kid in Chesterfield. His version went; We're rate daarn in't coil oil where muck slarts on't winders. We've used all are coil up an' we're rate daarn t't cinders. When't bum bailif comes 'e won't know where t' find us, Cos we're rate daarn in't coil oil where muck slarts on't winders. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: nutty Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:03 PM No info about origin but you can here the rhyme HERE |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:12 PM Thanks Les and Hazel and everyone seems to be trad but widespread curency difficult say exactly where from yet Chap reciting probably learnt if from a folkie!! Finders and winders I feel is more towards Lancashire; Les as you say not really rhyming from Hull accent Which is why I had it more towards West Yorks?keep em coming |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Zany Mouse Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:05 PM I'm from Wombwell, nr Barnsley, and I must admit I can't remember ever hearing it. Rhiannon |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:32 AM In the 1930s Ernest Butcher (a professional singer, from Lancashire as it happens) wrote an elaborated version of it, including the "posh" verse (a little more straightforward than Les's recollection). Julian Pilling published a piece about the song in English Dance and Song, vol. 60, no. 1, 1998, p.18. Roy Palmer learned the song (to the tune of Ach du liebe Augustin) while living near Barnsley, 1961-3. It appears in his A Touch on the Times, London: Penguin Education, 1974, 160-1. According to Peter Kennedy, it appeared in Bookworm's Paradise (Hiking & Rambling Manual) in 1911, but I don't know anything about that. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Barb'ry Date: 16 Apr 05 - 05:14 AM I was surprised to hear it was from Yorkshire too, as it was the Christmas 'party piece' for people of my parents generation when I was little. They claimed to have learned it in the school playgrounds, so it's going back a bit! (Not that I'm old..) Barb'ry |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: gnomad Date: 16 Apr 05 - 06:18 AM My mother used to amuse us as children with this one. I have the idea she knew it as a child, which would site it in West Yorks (Wyke & Dewsbury) in 1920s - 30s. I'll try to remember to ask. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Les from Hull Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:40 PM That wasn't my recollection, Malcolm, it was original, but it was suggested to me that I do it, presumably by someone who had heard the original but couldn't remember the actual words. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:32 PM Building nicely thank you ladies and gentlemen Malcolm has always got great gems of factual wisdom, i do have a Touch on the Times, by Roy Palmer He say "it is acurious litle song that is still current in the Barnsley area; there are Lancashire versions too" Ive never heard it in Barnsley might write to that powerful organ the Barnsley Chronicle yet!! Any contributions gratefully accepted ~ say where your from it etc can be helpful to trace currency and when and where Many Thanks Ray Padgett |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM Julian Pilling quoted the verse from Bill Rossall (of Nelson) who remembered his father, a relative of Ernest Butcher, singing it in the 1930s. Oh we're all down in the basement Where the mud splashes on the casement We've burned all our coal up and we are now using cinders If the bailiffs come for us, they'll never find us Because we're all down in the basement Where the mud splashes on the casement. Butcher made a story of the song. In that part, the son of the family has grown prosperous and they live in a mansion and speak Standard English, but by the end they're back where they started, dialect and all. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:12 PM Yes I feel sure that Dave burland also knew and sung the posh verse! Not in Roy's book tho' Thanks Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM I think Les's verses are part of a skipping song rhyme Many bits of song were used in this way so someone at some time had the fuller version of this song and was adopted as an introductory verse before the"Fish and chips and vinegar~~ which were knows as "the peppers" when the skipping rope was turned much quicker I always remember the verse: Little fat doctor how's your wife very well thank you thats alright, She wont eat a bit of fish nor abit of liquorice, OUT spells out possibly from a longer song or just a snippet made up for skipping (current around 1955 ~ my sister!! may have had reference to Dr Crippen?) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Snuffy Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:58 AM There's a late 60s version of it by the Oldham Tinkers at the start of Coalhole Medley on Deep Lancashire. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Les in Chorlton Date: 22 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM So, wher did Harry and the Tinkers get the song from? Harry was not against breathing life (sometimes by major transplant) into bits of songs, as is M. Carthy. No criticism implied. I raised a question ages ago about the origin of the song (not the tradition) Cob -a- coalin, also on Deep Lanchshire. The song in its entirety does not seem to exist before Deep Lancashire, unless someone else knows more? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Rumncoke Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM Acouple of decades ago,at least, I asked my Dad and his lady friend - both Barnsley born and bred, and neither had ever heard of it. They did seem to think it was not a very proper song and that I should find something 'nicer' to sing. I found this back in the 70s - I think - it was written down somewhere, I know I have never hear it sung. My Dad was born in 1918 and is no longer available for further enquiry. Anne |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:05 AM There is a version of this song in John Arden's play, "Live like pigs". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Apr 11 - 05:00 PM When was the play written please, GUEST? I would assume the song was written post 1900 as it doesn't appear in any of the many nineteenth century northern anthologies and they were very thorough in including just about everything available. Could someone post a Lancashire version please, with dialect, so we can see what it looks like. As another Hull lad I can't imagine it coming from anywhere but the area between Bradford and Barnsley, but then I'm no dialect expert. While I'm on anybody got the latest on Ray's health problems? He doesn't appear to have surfaced yet. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: r.padgett Date: 30 May 12 - 12:28 PM I am still here Mr Gardham as you well know and we are no further forwards on this provenance! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Charley Noble Date: 30 May 12 - 12:59 PM I've also collected this one for my housing songbook. Here's the lyrics I found and my notes: The Barnsley Anthem The housing conditions experienced by most of the working class tenants in the new industrial cities were severe, especially so for those who sublet space in attics and cellars. In Manchester, England, it was reported in 1833 that some twelve percent of the workers, 21,000, were living in cellars: Often more than one family lived in a single damp cellar, in whose pestilent atmosphere twelve to sixteen persons were crowded together. To these and other sources of disease must be added that pigs were kept, and disgusting things of the most revolting kind were found. In this biting song, which is still current in the Barnsley and Lancashire areas, the tenants sing of what difficulties the rent collectors and court officers will have finding their lodgings, let alone collecting the rent. Anonymous – Circa 1850's In A Touch on the Times The Barnsley Anthem We're all dahn in't cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; We've used all t' coil up An' we're reight dahn to t' cinders; If bum bailiffs come They nivver will find us; 'Cos we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer muck slaght on t' winders. We're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; Dooer 'oil's wide oppen as it's oft bin afooer; Fire 'oil it's nearly reight chock full o' cinders, An' t' waaf she's art callin' wi' t' neerbur next door, 'Cos we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders. We're all dahn t' cellar 'oil Wheer t' muck slaghts on t' winders; T' dooer 'oil's blocked up wi' ashes and cinders; When t' chap comes for t' rent Will 'e be able to find us? Ma comes wi' t' rollin' pin, Pa wi' t' belinders, When we're all dahn in t' cellar 'oil Wheer muck slaghts on t' winders. Translation: dahn = down; 'oil = hole; dooer = door; slaghts = splashes; coil = coal; bum bailiffs = court officers; belinders = bellows; callin' = gossiping Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 30 May 12 - 01:14 PM There's another thread somewhere on this one, on which I remember noting that the man I learnt it from, a fellow-student at Cambridge c1953 from Manchester [or to be precise Denton], sang it to the tune of Oranges & Lemons, which is not quite the same as Lieber Augustin, of which our version is called The More We are Together. ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: r.padgett Date: 31 May 12 - 08:13 AM Only other information I have is that a chorus used was: Yer can't put yer muck in our dustbin, our dustbin, our dustbin Yer can't put yer muck in our dustbin, our dustbins full! Oft used I believe (the whole) back of the club trip bus on the way to Blackpool, Scarborough, Cleethorpes or even Mablethorpe by the kids. They would have a bit of pocket money from their parent (s) and if their dad was aclub member even a bit from the club itself! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,guest Date: 31 May 12 - 04:47 PM i think Mary used to sing it at Croppers folk club in the 1980s maybe Cleckywyke can confirm? Alan Cox |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: r.padgett Date: 01 Jun 12 - 04:41 AM All memories and thoughts on origins needed here Alan, ta! Mary Fellowes was lovely little woman and a champion weight lifter in her time, I dont think she weighed 9st any time Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:56 PM I was born in Barnsley in 1944. I remember my mother singing the first few lines of this 'anthem' but the words seem to differ a little from those previously quoted. Her version was:- We're way down in t'cellar oyle Where t'muck slarts on t'winders We ain't got no coyle so we're nah burnin' cinders... I can still remember the tune but I can't write music notes. If anyone wants me to sing her tune, give me a ring. 01904 728754. At your own risk. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler Date: 11 Oct 15 - 08:19 PM I learned this from the Girl Guides in the early sixties: "We're all dahn i' t' coil oil weer t' muck clarts o' t' winders Wey've used all us coil up an' we're reet dahn ti t' cinders When t' bum bailiff cums rahnd 'ere, 'e'll niver find us Cos we're all dahn i' t' coil oil weer t' muck clarts o' t' winders. We are all down in the basement where the dirt accumulates upon the casement We have used all our anthracite and we are down to the residue When the company representative calls round here, he will not find us Because we are all down in the basement where the dirt accumulates upon the casement. Repeat first verse LOUDLY." |
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Subject: add: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:49 AM It is on the Yorkshire Garland website still and we are still looking for origins ~ the tune we did trace to a German song, but the words are still a mystery Ray http://www.yorkshirefolksong.net/song.cfm?songID=69 BARNSLEY ANTHEM 1 2 3
winders = windows
Tune is Ach du liebe Augustin much used in Britain for children’s and bawdy songs. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:04 AM Okay, Raymond, if we're still looking, Kennedy's piece of info via Malcolm was the earliest reference; Bookworm's Paradise (Hiking & Rambling Manual) in 1911, so we need to see if we can get hold of a copy of this. It would fit in well with origins of pieces like 'Ilkley Moor baht at' and 'Keep that wheel a turning'. Ach du Lieber Augustin is used for so many little ditties it would be hard to say exactly how it came to be used for our song unless the 1911 version specifies the tune. A children's song 'I'm a little Dutchgirl' might be a candidate. Michael, whereas the first line of 'Oranges and Lemons' has close similarities with 'Augustin' I feel the 'Augustin' tune is a far better fit, particularly if the 'You can't put yer muck in ar dustbin' chorus is part of the original. (Of course we can't yet be certain of this). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:21 AM The Lieber Augustin tune is one known round these parts as 'The more we are together', which doesn't seem to me to fit the verses of Barnsley Anthem anything like as well as Oranges'n'Lemons -- in fact I can't make the words fit it at all: -- tho I admit the 'our dustbin' chorus fits it. Perhaps one tune should resolve into the other as verse goes into chorus...? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:38 AM Ah yes, I have the sheet music, Irving King, 1926. Does anyone else sing it to the tune of 'Oranges and Lemons'? To me the dialect is straightforward South Yorkshire including the finnd us/winders rhyme. Does it have any affinity with Lancashire dialect? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:38 AM So many folk songs seem to have had their origins in the Rambling and Hiking days ~ I did post to the Sheffield area ramblers website with no luck a year or two ago! Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:59 AM "Does it have any affinity with Lancashire dialect?" you ask, Steve. Well, I learned it many years ago -- to show how long, it was from a friend with whom I did National Service 1951-52 and then we were together at Cambridge, 1952-55. He was a Lancashire man as ever was -- from Denton, which is resolutely Greater Manchester; and it had formed part of his childhood and youth. His version consisted only of the first, "Down here in t'cellar-'ole" stanza, to the Oranges&Lemons tune, with no chorus of any sort. So, despite the popular title which links it to a specific Yorkshire town, it would appear that its spread in Northern England is wider than that; and perhaps they do sing it differently in Lancs, favouring the Os·&·Ls tune over the Augustin one? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:01 AM ...and doesn't all this demonstrate, yet again the folly & futility of trying to establish a definitive version of any traditional artefact! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:15 AM If Les learnt it in the Scouts that would be 1950s as he's my age. On the evidence above it would appear to have been a staple of the rambling/hiking/scouting fraternity where several such ditties seem to have been disseminated. If, which seems likely, it was printed without tune it would have been set to any tune that fitted. I haven't got a copy of 'Deep Lancashire' but it would be useful to know what tune the Oldham Tinkers used in the late 60s and what the dialect sounded like. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:18 AM If I can find my copy I'll give that track a play & come back 2U. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:21 AM Michael, shame on you! There are plenty of instances here on Mudcat where researchers have managed to establish origins of all sorts of traditional artefacts. As for 'definitive', I don't think anyone is suggesting that any are definitive, even a proposed original. However I see nothing wrong in trying to establish a likely evolution of a particular artefact. The study of folklore is surely very much based on this. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:35 AM Right - have done so. First track of Side 2 of Deep Lancashire, actually called "Coalhole Medley". The Oldham Tinkers, like my Denton friend, are of course Greater Mancunians, both Denton & Oldham being there situate. They sing it almost exactly as my friend did, to Oranges·&·Lemons tune, and only the one verse & no chorus. Only difference is that they pronounce "find us" in standard pronunciation with long i, rather than to rhyme with 'winders' & 'cinders'. Satisfied? ≈M≈ |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 10:42 AM Nobody has opposed research. I merely pointed out the general futility of trying to establish definitive origins. Where's the shame in that? Or are you one of those who believes Ring-a-Roses originated in the Plague or some such well-exploded idiocy? Shame on you right back to you. Civil discussion admits not of such immoderate interjections!. Genuinely surprised at you. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:07 AM Michael, many thanks for checking the track. I tried to get a freebee on iTunes but the bit they played for free didn't go that far. In my opinion the fact that both sets of Mancunians sing it without the obvious rhyme would suggest the Barnsley version supercedes the Mancunian version, but I accept this does not definitively prove anything. I didn't mean to be severe on you. I thought your comment might have been tongue in cheek and I was responding accordingly. We have established beyond reasonable doubt the origins of plenty of folk songs on this forum, Harry Clifton and Joe Geoghegan (Bolton) songs for instance. You know very well I don't subscribe to the hairy fairy origins in your example, quite the opposite. If I offended you I apologise unreservedly. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: MGM·Lion Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:13 AM OK, of course. Mustn't be so touchy, Michael! Bygones... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:35 AM Just come across a US of A song "Fish chips and vinegar song" which bears a striking resemblance to " Can't put your muck in our dustbin, our dustbins full" Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:00 PM Ray, See Les's post near the beginning of the thread. Fish and chips in America???? French fries maybe. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 13 Oct 15 - 03:23 PM So we claim Fish and chips and vinegar, which seems to be quite popular in USA as a children's song, Steve Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:06 PM Sung in the scouts might be a clue, Ray. Until we get word from across the pond I reserve judgment. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,Norman FitzNicely Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:31 AM Canada is much more likely for the "Fish and chips" verse. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:33 AM And "bottle of pop", come to think of it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,Norman FitzNicely Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:35 AM Sorry, the "pop" comment was also mine. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:14 AM Looks like UK is original source, but further comments certainly needed Bill Prince sends his regards from my fb page Norman Ray |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Barnsley Anthem From: GUEST,padgett Date: 15 Oct 15 - 04:12 AM I have decided over night, that its origins are in a skipping song! The song has "pepper pepper, salt in" it ~ my memory has it that "pepper" was fast turn of the skipping rope and the salt (with thumb gesture) means out [of the skipping] ~ original song was UK ~ "you can't put yer muck in our dustbin" ~ but like all songs can and will travel many miles! This of course refers to the extra bit and not the original Barnsley Anthem ~ still looking for this elusive song Ray |
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