BS: Who do consider to be a genius?

Subject: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 02:44 AM

Lets clarify that and include only musical genius.

You should also include why you think they are a genius.

Is anyone considered to be a genius while they are still alive?

I think Van Morrison is a genius. He overcame all of the obstacles presented by the music industry to be heard. He has his own voice and reached into the hearts of millions. His poetry and music has endured and is being rediscovered by a whole new generation. He
continues to tour worldwide. Maybe he's just obsessed.

Is there a difference between genius and obsession?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Matt_R
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:51 AM

Mike Scott

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:56 AM

Les Barker.

OK, strictly speaking, he is a poet, but many of his poems have been turned into songs. His subject matter runs from parodies of well known stuff; to original humour; more serious poetry and songs; monologues & travelogues; hard hitting, thought provoking satire and some downright soppy stuff.

The man is a genius in a cardigan.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:09 AM

Perhaps the term is a little over-used and should be defined first?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM

No, I think it should be left vague, to be defined by each according to his/her own criteria. You will never get agreement, and the thread will turn into a "define genius" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:33 AM

Nearly forgot. Ian Curtis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:05 AM

Van Morrison couldn't sing to save his life, he just shouts a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:26 AM

No, I think it should be left vague, to be defined by each according to his/her own criteria. You will never get agreement, and the thread will turn into a "define genius" thread.

Not really much point in using a word if there is no definition of it.

I think Paul Brady is a carrot - because he has red hair and I like red hair - and him.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:31 AM

Fair enough, define it then. I don't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 08:01 AM

I am fairly sure that I am not a Musical Genius, just got a little talent but too lazy to practicse enough... but in some other areas, according to the test results...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: s6k
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 10:53 AM

well, Bob Dylan IS a musical genius and theres no real explanation needed. lyrics, songs... thats all that needs to be said really. did i mention lyrics?

id also say that leonard cohen and christy moore are probably geniuses too, for much the same reasons.

and of course, robert johnson. to have only 30 songs and have such an impact on everyone that followed has to have some kind of genius behind it

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 11:10 AM

I agree that Dylan and Van Morrison are.

Ian Anderson also is high on my list, musically more than lyrically, though many of his lyrics are pushing close to it. (Of course, Tull had another musician that highly complemented & embellished Anderson's compositions, Martin Barre.) I think "Thick as a Brick" was brilliant though it had some awful transitions here and there. "War Child" was superb as was "Minstrel in the Gallery". As years passed. the overall integrity of many his Tull albums suffered, though in each of them there was a marvelous gem or three.

"Divinities; Twelve Dances With God", Anderson's orchestral "solo" album was...divine. Excellent piece of work.

I have not given ear to his "Secret Launguage of Birds" or "Rupi's Dance" except for a few snippets, but what I have heard is delightful.

k

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:05 PM

Dylan I think is a good poet and a godawful singer. Genius? No way near. Christy and Van I think are excellent writers and good singers. I think genius as something innovative maybe, someone who forges their own path, without others to imitate or aspire to or follow.

Bowie and John Lydon fit that particular bill, but I wouldn't saddle them with the label genius and I doubt if they'd want it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:14 PM

Pretty hard to exclude any that are mentioned in this thread, including those to come. Of those mentioned so far, Ian Anderson stands out for me. The depth and breadth of the works of this prolific artist are simply staggering.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:27 PM

JS Bach
Itzhak Perlman
Yo Yo Ma

Any attempt at an explanation would just be gilding the lilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

I am dubious in general about any "genius" not manifesting itself in works. Or that finds self-assertion worth the thought to write it. Talent does what others cannot do; genius sees what no other has seen.

But I think we all have the power of genuine genius within us.

Sometimes I think Bobert, for example, is one.

But I don't think the condition is genuinely defined.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM

CarolC,

I'm very pleasantly surprised that you would suggest an Israeli. Maybe your old friend Martin was wrong about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:33 PM

Oh yeah. I forgot... Frank Zappa

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

Of course he was, GUEST,18 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 12:59 PM

Two that readily spring to mind are Django Reinhardt and Stefan Grapelli. Having them both playing together must have been quite something to witness.
That they are still vaunted as the best of their genre 70 years later is testimony of their skill and inventiveness.
The term genius is easier to apply to big thinkers like Einstien or Newton. Music is too subjective and open to interpretation.
Some might say that Hendrix was a genius because he was the first of his type, others might prefer Elton John who has an amazing gift of being able to churn out a hit song in minutes.
There are many great musical innovators but by it's nature all music has its roots in someone elses' work, making it all the more difficult to quantify.
I can say with certainty that I do not fall into the category!

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:01 PM

Joni Mitchell

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:13 PM

Perhaps when we have decided who is a genius we could make representations to God and ask for them to be excused death as we feel they still have a lot to contribute.

Or if this is felt to be impractical we should at least make representations to our government to make sure they have a living wage. People like Django and Robert Johnson could have done with that at various times

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: C-flat
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:29 PM

The only problem with that idea is that we don't usually recognise their "genius" untill they're either dead or rich!!
Or dead rich!
C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 01:57 PM

Musical geniuses ... here's a few that come to my mind:

Let their music and artistry speak for itself.

Lenny Breau

Bert Jansch

Wes Montgomery

Miles Davis

Hank Williams

and more ... but that's it from me.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

I agree with CarolC ...Frank Zappa is the first name that pops into my mind when I think of recent musical geniuses...

But he's dead. So is John Lennon, whose name comes second to mind. He revolutionized pop music.

When I try to think of someone alive today, it's a little harder. Jim White, maybe. At the least he's the best living American songwriter that I've heard (my opinion, of course).

Historically and classicaslly speaking, Chopin and Mozart. The stuff they wrote way back when must've sounded revolutionary to audiences then, because certain passages sound amazingly contemporary to me now.

More recently in the classical vein, Charles Ives and Schoenberg. The ideas of Ives' work were being formulated around the turn of the twentieth century. Then, they were lightyears ahead of their time. It took the rest of the world about fifty years to catch up. His fourth symphony is a masterpiece. Schoenberg's (I'll probably take some heat on Schoenberg - you either like atonal stuff or you don't) atonal ideas were genius.

Jazzically - Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans. The depth and breadth of musical ideas that flowed out of them were genius.

Probably lots of other musical geniuses that escape memory at the present ...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:00 PM

Same as the other genius thread.
Charlie Parker & Django Reinhardt.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:04 PM

Zappa? Not fair to the rest of the nominees. Oh, that's right... the question was, "Who do (you) consider to be a genius?" So there is no "ultimate" genius in this thread. Otherwise, the thread would be over... Frank was, is, maybe(?) will be THE absolute musical genius. Of course, many will dispute this, especially Dylan fans... "Wanna buy some Mandies, Bob?" And, no, LH, your car will not be ready by Friday.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:26 PM

Vivian Stanshall. Yes, I know he's dead, but I would have considered Viv a genius even if I had heard of him when still alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 03:42 PM

JS Bach, L. van Beethoven, WA Mozart, PDQ Bach, Victor Borge, Noel Paul Stookey, Stan Rogers, Ray Charles, Robert Johnston, Tommy Makem, and, of course, Anonymous are the ones that come to mind immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

What, nobody nominating Michael Jackson?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

Are you bloody kidding?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

Lonnie Johnson
Louis Armstrong
Carl Kress
Bill Monroe
"Dizzy" Gillespie
Mike Auldridge

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:15 PM

sorry, forgot Kenneth "Jethro" Burns

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

Viv Stanshall .... thanks for mentioning him La Scaramouche!

A genius he was. How I fondly and respectfully remember such songs as Into Outro, Big Shot and Tent.

"you got a light mac? ... no, but I have a dark brown overcoat"

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:25 PM

Changing yet changeless as canal water..
I don't know what I want but I want it now!
Tongue sandwich? UUURGHH eat WHAT?? But it's been in somebody else's mouth!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do you consider to be a genius?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

Eric Bogle, Ralph McTell and Les Barker for starters, then Martin Carthy and his daughter and perhaps the rest of their family.
I'd also include Colin Ross from the High Level Ranters, known as God in NSpiping circles.
And in NZ, Marcus Turner.
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sheeney Knause
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:55 PM

William Shatner, seriously. His version of "Rocket Man" alone is enough to testify of the truth of his brilliance. Of Shatner's rendition of "Mr. Tamborine Man", Bob Dylan said, "Bill took the song and made it his song."

It was Shatner who first took interest in a young Tom Jones late 1950s. Under Shatner's auspices, Jones recorded his first album, "Front Porch Pickin'", with Shatner playing autoharp & adding some harmony to the acoustic collection.

As an aside to this, when approached by A&R money men to change his style & image, Jones decided to somewhat emulate Shatner. Amazingly, Jones' emulation worked and he continued to do so throughout his career.

Listen to Jones singing on "Say You'll Stay Until Tomorrow" or "I Can't Stop Loving You" & think of Shatner. You can hear the over-dramatization, the "hamming it up" reminiscent of Shatner's acting & speech.

In Later years a "personality conflict" ended the Shatner / Jones relationship, & they rarely speak of one another. Yet, Jones, in a 1998 interview with Conundrum Magazine, stated bluntly, "Without Bill Shatner, I would probably still be in Wales tending goats."

Love him or hate him, Bill Shatner is a musical genius.

Sheeney

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:57 PM

"Without Bill Shatner, I would probably still be in Wales tending goats."


NO COMMENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 18 Jun 05 - 06:58 PM

Now that is freaky.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 12:31 AM

So, is "tending" a euphemism? :-).

I would put Brian Wilson on the list. John Coltrane and Charlie Parker have been mentioned. Phil Spector perhaps, but no genius as a hair stylist, that's for sure :-).

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:18 AM

more reflections on the genius of Viv Stanshall ....

"And looking very relaxed, Adolf Hitler on vibes.
Nice!
Princess Anne on sousaphone.
Mmm.
Introducing Liberace, clarinet ..
Yeah! Digging General de Gaulle on accordion.
Rather wild, General!
Thank you, sir.
Roy Rogers on Trigger."

selections from the song 'The Intro, the Outro'(1969)

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 01:25 AM

Shawn Phillips. Cat Stevens. Chet Atkins. Roy Buchannan. And now, William Shatner.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:02 AM

John Lennon and Paul McCartney make all the above mentioned pale into insignificance when considering the wide ranging appeal and breadth of their bodies of work. Of course this is merely my opinion based on a lifetime obsession.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Matt_R
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:50 AM

No other Mike Scott fans? Shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: sixtieschick
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 02:57 AM

Again, I think genius is an over-used word. It certainly fits Dylan. Others who I'm not sure are geniuses but are definitely highly intelligent and clever lyricists:

W.S. Gilbert, Cole Porter, Ira Gershwin, and Tom Lehrer.


Miriam

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:35 AM

Do factors like hype, culture and fashion really distort all this?

I wonder how many poor souls with great musical genius have lived, died and produced great music in complete obscurity?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:50 AM

Ralph Reader...

Where would the gang show have been without him

Oh we're riding along on the crest of a wave

Billy Cotton

I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts

Al Jolson

You made me love you

You may scoff, but ask anybody over 80, they won't know the names you mention. But they'll know that lot, and so do you!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:56 AM

Stan Laurel.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 03:57 AM

Mozart....if only for his comment, "I write music as a sow piddles."

Lennon and McCartney, for the reasons noted in previous post.

Lenny Breau and Chet Atkins because they played guitar real good....and Manitas de Plata cause he played real good too.

Joannie Mitchell, because the list needs a female, particularly one who is and was 90% smarter than the males around her.

Richard Thompson and Mark Knofler, for their ability to paint pictures with music and lyrics.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:35 AM

"Count Basie Orchestra on triangle."
Intro & Outro.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 04:48 AM

Jim Skiathitis of the Atlantics - played lead guitar on Flight of the Surf Guitar and Bombora, 1963.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:17 AM

It also helps - if you die young.

Which mainly means that you will be remembered only for your best work and can't then mess-up any earlier promise shown - with later and less worthy efforts.

Jonny Kidd (and the Pirates).
Nick Drake
And seemingly anyone who wears a cardigan...

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 05:48 AM

And seemingly anyone who wears a cardigan...

Only if his name is Les Barker, Shambles :-)

I had him at my folk club in April. The man is definitely a genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:19 AM

Val Doonigan wore a cardie didn't he?

Some say he was pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:18 AM

"Over there, Eric Clapton, ukulele.
Hi Eric!

and more from Intro, Outro

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 08:29 AM

I'll probably receive some flack over this, but I will proceed with my statement anyway ... Lennon and McCartney were brilliant, George Martin was the genius.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: s6k
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 09:11 AM

mark knopfler
cat stevens
william shatner

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 09:41 AM

Robin & Barry Dransfield, The Mathews Brothers, Vin, Jez & 1812

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 10:31 AM

Charlie Chaplin...incredible musician, wrote the score to all of his movies, perfectly capturing the mood of the action of each scene.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

Some of these choices are just plain silly!! Let's get serious!! My first choice:- Franz Liszt!! Fantastic musical ear! Fantastic technique! Fantastic improviser! Fantastic composer! Arguably, the greatest sight-reader in history! Fantastic musical memory! And, probably, the most charismatic performer ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 11:41 AM

Another overused term is "artist." A lot of rock musicians - and musicians in general - are referred to as artists, when, perhaps, their "artistry" should be considered more as a craft rather than an art. "Artist" should be reserved for those who truly are a cut above the rest, subjectively speaking, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM

William Shatner's genius, of course, is indisputable. It's so obvious that it hardly needs to be said.

Other than that....

Mozart. Michelangelo. Da Vinci. Beethoven. Lao-Tse. Bob Dylan. And quite possibly, Joni Mitchell.

And I'm sure there are many others. We are all potential geniuses, but not necessarily to be realized in this incarnation. Eventually, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 02:56 AM

Perhaps the term should be reserved for those of us who are prepared sacrifice the lives of all those who ever get close to them - in the selfish belief that their own life and work are all that matters? Being thought to be a genius - seems to be taken by some as permission or an excuse - to be a complete shit.

Perhaps we could live better without such people - rather than feeling we need to praise them. Appreciating excellence is one thing but perhaps not its pursuit at all human cost?

I don't claim that my old mum was a genius - but she was certainly a lot nicer to those around her than many of those who would be thought to be a genius.....She often wore a cardigan too.........

I hear that there is supposed to be a long-lost self-portrait of Leonardo Da Vinci - wearing a cardigan.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:03 AM

cardigan

Ah ha! At last I know what that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 03:26 AM

Genius is an overused term, IMO. Has no utility. Better we say who we like and why rather than declare individuals as 'geniuses'. IMO, and no offense to many of the fine folks already mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 07:37 AM

BOB GELDOF.

the way he manipulates the media to get attention to his causes is just superb.

GO BOB GO.

END POVERTY NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 06:26 PM

Kudos to Lester Polfus!! (Les Paul) I will say he was genius inventor of electric guitars. I want to add Leo Kottke to the list too. I love his guitar genius.

G-Spot, I agree on Shawn Phillips with you. He is one genius to me, when it comes to lyrics and music.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:01 PM

Come in number 6 your time is up."George Martin the Genius of the Beatles?". I suppose that makes Roy Baker the genius of Queen or Chris Thomas the genius of Bob Marley and The Wailers and John Hammond the genius of Bob Dylan etc.etc.etc. Get real buddy! The genius is in the inception and conception of the work.The rest is just window dressing and a built up knowledge from learning and experience allows any Tom, Dick or George to do that. Sir George, great man that he is, could never have written a Beatle song and was fortunate to be along for the ride.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 09:37 PM

Well .... looks like I'm now flying into the flak.

If it wasn't for the genius (sorry, Bruce, overused but what the hell) of George Martin there certainly would not have been the beatles that we now know. He recognized something ... he took that something in, that something thrived from what he tilled ... He honed their skills, they learned frowm what he offered. The beatles sound is directly a result of GM.

He was the maestro, they were the brilliant students. Sorry, he was not a window dresser or just a promoter, he was a producer, who had a direct result in their sound.

In regards to John Hammond, did not influence Bob Dylan's sound, he heard it, recognised it's unique brilliancy, and he promoted it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:28 PM

Wow!!!

Kinda depends on categories of music...

Ahhh, in the singer song-writer category there are so many who really fit the genius description: Woody, Dylan, Springsteen, Mark Germino, Shawn Phillips, Paul Seibel, Bob Martin, Joni Mitchell

Then ya got yer alt-country with Jerry Garcia and the Dead, James Lee Stanley, the guys in Poco, and Pure Prarie League...

Then the folkies like John Stewart, Pete Seegar and Joan Bias...

And country folks who wrote alot of their own stuff like Don Williams and Hank Williamns...

As fir rockers, Ian Anderson and John Lennon are in a class by themselves with folks like Pete Townsend, Paul McCartney, Gary Wright, Mick Jaggar in the 2nd tier...

But now when it come to blues? Different story... So many folks who I consider genious because they each found thier own sound and style: Eddie "Son" House, Willie Brown, Robert Johnson, Slim Harpo, Lightnin' Slim, Elmore James, Lightnin' Hopkins, Dan Pickett, Mama Thornton, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Muddy Waters....

But there's this last category of folks that kinda just flopped over where they flopped over like James" I Feel Good" Brown, an' like Johnny Horton, an' like Conwat Twitty, an like Jerry Lee Lewis....

Yeah, I'm sure that I isses quite a few of folks I would consider geniuos but these folks that I have mentioned all carved out their own territories and that, to me , is genious in music...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

I see we are at loggerheads on this issue No6.Perhaps you are a "Prisoner" of the classical school that doesn't appreciate the initial idea as genius -only the finished article.Dylan seems to float your boat? Maybe, you should refer to his views on Lennon & McCartneys influence and agree with your guiding light. Sir George Martin, unassuming and modest fellow that he is, has reitterated my point numerous times and states "he simply got lucky with The Beatles and anything he did was under strict instruction from the geniuses". As a lifelong Beatlemaniac you will appreciate that I have accumulated vast amounts of information relating to the groups activities and have read every noteworthy book ever published. Suffice to say I know that George Martin is a very good record producer but what has he achieved beyond The Beatles? Lennon -Imagine.McCartney -Band On The Run.Sir George Martin?

Here endeth the sermon.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,G-Spot
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:02 PM

After seeing the impact he has had on the many here, I believe Martin Gibson is a genius.

GS

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 05 - 11:51 PM

That is a very cogent observation, G-spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:36 AM

Maybe an evil genius.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:10 AM

Suffice to say I know that George Martin is a very good record producer but what has he achieved beyond The Beatles? Lennon -Imagine.McCartney -Band On The Run.Sir George Martin?

Before he came into contact with The Beatles - he was producing some really fine comedy/novelty records for Peter Sellers etc. Some of these - like Right Said Fred (with Bernard Cribbins) have stood the test of time - along with many of The Beatles records.

Perhaps it is the creative sprark that we think of as genius? But we should also appreciate the abililty - in some like George Martin - to be able to improve upon the raw material. We do do appreciate that the creative members of The Beatle did learn a lot from George Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:43 AM

I do wish that people did not make these foolish claims to genius.

It makes it very hard for those of us who really are ------

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:43 AM

I would agree with Sidewinder, while there is good reason for George Martin to be called the 5th Beatle, who else did he turn into the Beatles? With all due respect to Martin, he did not write the melodies or the lyrics.

Sometimes people forget, it is always within that which appears as simple, that true genius lies. And as Bobert has noted the Blues is a prime example of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 03:19 AM

This 1971 interview with George Martin give an interesting background to how the Beatles records were produced.

http://www.aboutthebeatles.com/biography_georgemartin_mminterview.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:29 AM

Eric Taylor

Best songwriter i've heard for a long time. You yanks should give him a knighthood or something as a national treasure. Special ambassador(with guitar) to the United Nations.

At very least you should confer on him free guitar strings and entry to Disney Land, and family vouchers for Burger King.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 06:21 AM

I think George Martin is being typically reticent. All you have to do is look at the kinds of producers who turned the Beatles down, not to mention the rest of EMI, to see that Martin is one of a kind -- a traditional producer who was a classically trained musician and also the kind of person who could help Peter Sellers do his weird work (check out the Indian My Fair Lady parody years and years before A Day in the Life and Harrisonia generally).   He was the one who could carry the Beatles through to the next level. In anyone else's hands, they would have developed into a very good Dave Clark Five.

My humble opinion.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:32 AM

I found an old brass lantern in the sand. I started to polish it, rubbing it with an old rag. A genius appeared and offered me three wishes.

To be truly genius it's not enough to simply break new ground. Truly awful artists break new ground every day (it's required in today's academic art world where "different" trumps "good").

True genius requires that that new material affect others in a meaningful and new way.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:34 AM

The 5th Beatle? Wasn't that the Canadian policeman from out west who stood in for Paul McCartney after he got killed in the car accident? You know...the guy who won the McCartney lookalike contest and then disappeared off the face of the Earth?

Hmmmm.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:50 AM

Flak, and now bandits at 10:00 o'clock.

Actually the real 5th beatle was some DJ out of New York (Murry the K). Wasn't it?

Peter T. explains things very well in his post... "In anyone else's hands, they would have developed into a very good Dave Clark Five."
Thank you Peter.


You have evidence on GM's influence .. listen to the Beatles last album ... Let it BE ... flat, no brilliance to it all, it certainly does not have that 'Beatles' sound. It is I must admit an excellent album in the chronicle of their history though ... anyway, GM had no influence at all, in fact he wasn't the producer.

As for what Bob say's .. well he has away with saying things ... read his book Chronicles ... he mentions his admiration of Frank Sinatra Jr. ... anyway, ya gotta luv that Bob.

To be honest, I'm not a big Beatles fan at all.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:54 AM

True genius requires that that new material affect others in a meaningful and new way.

And no two people will be affected in the same way by art, be it music or sculpture or poetry etc. So artistic geniuses are our own personal geniuses.

Geniuses in the world of science are easier to name as they produce something that does have a universal affect. I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:58 AM

MM: What did you have to do with the recording of "Let It Be?"

MARTIN: Yes, I produced the whole album originally, and got a great shock when I found it "re-produced" ... or over-produced, as I put it.

MM: What's your opinion of what Spector did to it?

MARTIN: It was an unhappy album from the beginning, because this really was the time of dissent. It was before "Abbey Road," and I really thought that "Let It Be" was going to be that last album any of us did. They were all fighting like mad. John insisted that it was going to be a natural album, and he didn't want any faking, any of the "Pepper" stuff, any production. He said to me "Your job is to make sure that we get a good sound. I don't want editing or overdubs of voices or instruments. It's got to be like it is." So we made it like that, and it was very tedious because they kept repeating the same things over and over again, and it's very difficult when you get to the 27th take to work out whether number 13 was better than number 19. None of it was ever very good, none of it was perfect - it would have been if you could have edited things together. It had this rawness, and I could quite see the advantage of it, so we made up this album which was an honest album, and that was it. It was left lying, and we recorded "Abbey Road," which was back to square one because we were able to produce it. I was much happier then, and after that.

MM: Did you think when you were making "Abbey Road" that it was going to be the last album?

MARTIN: No, I really didn't. They'd got back, they were much happier with themselves. It was very much more of a produced album ... we used a Moog for the first time, on George's "Here Comes The Sun." Everybody seemed to be working hard, and we'd got things nicely organised. It wasn't until after that that things started happening badly. I knew that John was going in the studios, doing some work on "Let It Be," but I understood that as they were making a film of it, they were doing some film tracks. When the record finally came out, I got a hell of a shock.

MM: You didn't know anything about it?

MARTIN: Nothing. Neither did Paul, and Paul wrote to me to say that he was pretty appalled, if you'll forgive the pun. All the lush un-Beatle-like orchestrations with harps and choirs in the background. And it was so contrary to what John asked for in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:15 AM

And, contrary to what I said earlier, like all geniuses George Martin has his dark moments -- what was with the Goldie Hawn album (that is my name for the travesty of Beatles songs he helped produce)?

Returning to the original topic, I think that in terms of popular music I would pick Goffin-King, Felice and Boudleaux Bryant, and Hank Garland as unsung (hah hah) geniuses.

Arthur Alexander was a kind of genius in his way.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:54 AM

And then, of course, there's Jerry Lewis. Just ask the French about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:30 AM

Musical genius ... actually is a hard one to define as previously mentioned by John Hardly. They are (I presume) musicians who take their artistry to a new undefined level.

With that said, the list I initially posted (way up there) are ones that I personally feel should fit the category of 'musical genius'. There are names posted by other catters that certainly deserve that category also. Personally I don't feel the Beatles meet that definition, either does GM, but he was I feel the maestro in that brief time in history. Nor, do I feel Bob Dylan (though I admire him, and am a great fan) fits that category.

anyway ... that's my 12 seconds on the podium.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:56 AM

I don't know what is meant by 'genius'. But I'm surprised this thread has got this far with no mention of either Clapton* or Hendrix.

* Viv's reference notwithstanding

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

Hendrix was mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 01:32 PM

Well, colour me doofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: annamill
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 02:22 PM

Ohh, musical genius... I was going to say "ME" but that sure as hell wouldn't fit...

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM

Re Clapton. See J.J. Cale. Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

Shambles said something very interesting, shortly before the George Martin debate began:

Perhaps the term should be reserved for those of us who are prepared to sacrifice the lives of all those who ever get close to them - in the selfish belief that their own life and work are all that matters? Being thought to be a genius - seems to be taken by some as permission or an excuse - to be a complete shit.

I'd take it a step further and observe that some artists can be so obsessed, so taken over, so driven, by their own "genius" or "muse" or "ambition" or whatever, that they wind up sacrificing their own happiness and normality on the altar of their music ~ not just the "lives of all those who ever get close to them."

Based on my brief and long-ago friendship with someone who would eventually gain a measure of recognition as an outstanding songwriter, I can attest that certain people who may appear to be "complete shits" or "difficult" personalities are often harder on themselves than they are on anyone else.

While it's easy to be critical of these "geniuses" for their difficult personalities (while being envious of their accomplishments and success), it might be more appropriate to sympathize with them, even perhaps pity them, for how very difficult they make life for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 07:27 PM

Wouldn't it make a certain amount of sense though, that someone known for seeing the world in a fresh new way would also be one not as inclined to view the world in the standard old way (or the "normal" way)?

Isn't that the reason why genius is so often indistiguishable from insanity?

We wonder why they can be total "shits". They wonder why everyone doesn't join them in seeing the world as they do -- and are usually oblivious to what we think is the obvious answer to that question...

happiness, security, love.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:24 PM

Although, I did rest my case earlier as this is an open forum I will add in final defense of my initial assertion;

Michael Jackson purchased the Lennon & McCartney song catalogue for $28,000,000 back in the late 1980s and that catalogue is now estimated to be worth around a billion dollars.How does GM stake a claim in that as he admits he contributed nothing to any composition other than instrumentation and orchestral arrangements and Nelson Riddle would have probably been a better "window dresser" than GM considering his pedigree.

I did point out that I have studied The Beatles cannon of work for decades and I am as enamoured with them now as I was as a teenager back in the day.That alone must justify a level of recognition of their merit.Remember, there are millions of us out there who have been inspired and affected by their labours crossing generations and cultural divides who have respect for GM but would never denigrate L & M to the level of the DC5 ( that is the most ludicrous assertion I have heard in years but thanks for the laugh anyway "Prisoner" my poor misguided friend.Please listen again to the fabulous "Let It Be " album and be astounded by the swamp rock gutteral majesty of "Get Back" and the lush "Long & Winding Road" and the poignant melancholia of "Two Of Us" etc., etc., which as you admitted has nothing to do with GM- and tell me it is a bad album and I will give up on you totally.For like-minded genius lovers out there; yes I know "Across The Universe" is a masterpiece and it's on the album also with "Let It Be" itself. Wow! I'm gonna give it a listen now.

Best Wishes.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 08:37 PM

It's all about "pushing the barriers and planting the seeds" as the great dreamweaver himself put it.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: jaze
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:38 PM

Mississippi John Hurt

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: jaze
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:39 PM

Oh what the hell,100!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Adam Zero
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:49 PM

I'm glad somebody mentioned Carl Kress. A real guitar genius. I'd say the musical genius of this century is probably Duke Ellington. I love Dylan and John Lennon, but they're not in the Duke's class.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

Please note Mr. Sidewinder the DC5 quote was note mine. But I do agree with it. Millions of $, millions of fans do not manifiest a 'genius' History will prove that the Beatles were a pop group, who wrote many of the the best popular tunes of there time, not unlike Stephen Foster. Good music, but certainly not music that shook the pillars of music history.

Actually I find that Nelson Riddle line extremely humorus ... good one Sidewinder, I tilt my hat to you!

I am very familiar with the Let it Be album (showing age there)and it is I confess my favourite of theirs. I even anxiously purchased the 'Naked' release. Yes,I like "two of us", it is poignant meloncholia (jeesh), "Get Back", I have certainly been astounded by more swamp rock gutteral majesty than that (you have a way with words there), "Long and Winding Road", sorry I always skip that dribbling peace of crap. You forgot to mention "I Me Mine", and "Old Brown Shoe" ... George Harrison, if there was an intelligent one in the group he certainly was the one, and I say that sincerely.

"It's all about "pushing the barriers and planting the seeds" ... A garden doesn't just thrive on it's own, it must always be tilled. George Martin was the gardener.

Respectfully (to you Sidewinder),

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:07 PM

I gotta go with Zappa....and maybe Dylan and maybe Joni Mitchell.

I don't know classical music or composers well enough to have an opinion.

I thought David Bowie's earlier stuff was brilliant.

Thats it from the peanut gallery.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:22 PM

I correct myself .... I meant "For you Blue", not "Old Brown Shoe".

Elmore James aint got nothin on this baby!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM

MYSELF!!!   MYSELF!!!! MYSELF!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:05 AM

Ditto to jaze: Mississippi John Hurt was something else indeed.

Another Mississippian with his own very unique and peculiar performance genius: Fred MacDowell. I heard his live recording of "Good Mornin' Little Schoolgirl" on the radio the other night (from "Live at the Gaslight," if I'm not mistaken) and actually got goosebumps. I had forgotten how intense and truly thrilling old Fred could be!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Penguin Egg
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:54 AM

I would have to put forward the name of Thelonious Monk. He pioneered a whole new form of piano playing that has not been equaled since. He was also a great composer. Check out "The Blue Note Years" and just about anything else with his name on it.

Also, when I hear John Coltrane and Eric Dolphy playing, I am hearing genius. Check out "John Coltrane live at Birdland with Eric Dolphy."

Charles Mingus is the great composer, band leader and bass player of the 20th Century. Pure genius. Check out "Blues and roots," "The Clown", "Mingus Ah Um" and "Mingus Oh Yeah."

Bert Jansch. A brilliant guitarist who pionneered an evolving new technique of playing and songwriting in a number of classic albums. Check out "Bert Jansch,"" Jack Orion," "Rosemary Lane" and "Avocet".

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:08 AM

Sidewinder, isn't "Let It Be" much after they had already established their sound?
To argue the point you would need examples of their work prior to GM.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:21 AM

While it's easy to be critical of these "geniuses" for their difficult personalities (while being envious of their accomplishments and success), it might be more appropriate to sympathize with them, even perhaps pity them, for how very difficult they make life for themselves.

Perhaps - if they chose to live alone on some deserted island. But they they don't generally choose to do this. They may be trapped - to some extent - by their own talent into being hard upon themselves but that does not entitle them to be hard upon others. They also don't tend to deny themselves the pleasures of the flesh - even if they often deny any responsibility of or care long-term for the results of this.

Don't want to enlarge on this subject too much here - but Michael Jackson is a good example. Some would consider him to be genius and possibly excuse the less acceptable aspects of his lifestyle. Those who have come close to him and have suffered as a result of this lifstyle - are perhaps the ones we should sympathize with?

The sad aspect is that there does not seem to be a shortage of people who are prepared (for a time anyway) to put up with and excuse this treatment - in order it would seem to bathe in the reflected glory.
I don't think I am saying that those with special talents should be expected to show more consideration to others than lesser mortals - but only that the general behaviour of all of us - should be judged on a level playing field.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:00 AM

The only real love is unconditional love. (That doesn't mean, though, that you put up with bad behaviour on the part of those you love...you just keep loving them (within yourself) regardless, that's all.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:03 PM

"Prisoner" I am very pleased we share a mutual admiration for a much overlooked masterpiece from the Fabs. I must however confess my personal favourites are "Abbey Road", "Beatles For Sale" and "Help!" which I am sure you are well aware; Sir George added his technical wizardry to.In defense of the Beatle sound "Scaramouche" it was honed and crafted in Hamburg between 1960 -1962 and listening to the poor quality recordings that exist (Lennon was quoted as saying "our best stuff was never recorded" not knowing these tapes existed) I have been amazed at how diverse and insightful their reportoire was; bearing in mind the slump in standards since the initial explosion of Rock and Roll circa 1956 -1958.At this time the likes of Fabian and Bobby Vinton polluted the stream of consciousness .The early raw Beatles had more in common with later garage bands like The Kingsmen, MC5 and later The Clash etc but were able to deliver a standard or showtune with an assured, uncomplicated, professional ease that far outclassed any "Working Class" combo treading the boards at that time. Sure, they were rough around the edges but that merely added to their overall charm and appeal.I can assure you that had these qualities not been present they would have been passed over by Sir George as just another Beat group on the one hit wonder trail. The DC5, and most others, could only dream of having such a rich and varied maelstrom of musical and creative attributes -presented with Mr Epstein's showbusiness aplomb how could they fail to be the biggest thing since Elvis and then ...the rest is musical history that will live forever.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:15 PM

Wasn't arguing with your point, only the logic used to get there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM

The only real love is unconditional love. (That doesn't mean, though, that you put up with bad behaviour on the part of those you love...you just keep loving them (within yourself) regardless, that's all.)

The 'love' than many of his devoted fans show to Michael Jackson (because of what they consider to be his musical genius) is certainly unconditional and often blind to the facts. However, as most of them do not actually know him personally - I am not sure that this can be thought of as real love or any love at all. I suspect it is something far more worrying.

Recent films on the fans who had camped outside the courtroom show some of them praying to little shines devoted to him. The extent that some of these fans would be prepared to go to demonstrate this unconditional 'love' to their genius/hero - probably concerns me just as much as Michael Jackson's apparent need to nurture and feed (vampire like) off of this uncritical adulation.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM

I'll add Paul Robeson. What he could do with just a voice.....

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:28 PM

"genius" is not a synonym for "talent" or "skill".

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:32 PM

Thelonius Monk .... most certainly deserves to be mentioned here .. thanks Penguin Egg!!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:57 PM

After Zappa and Ian Anderson, Becker and Fagen (Steely Dan)... a VERY close third.

I recall someone saying Tommy Makem... yes, but you actually have to see him perform in person to understand. A true Bard. Kinda the same for Valdy, Bruce Coburn, and many other artists... although Bruce did a TV special that was absolutely amazing. The music and poetry is amazing, but, the guitar was 'beyond'. You just don't get to hear a lot of the truly genius stuff because of the marketing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:25 PM

"You just don't get to hear a lot of the truly genius stuff because of the marketing."   .... good statement gnu.

Valdy ... well deserved here !!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:41 PM

sIx... I sat in awe of Valdy for nearly two hours at the Fredericton Playhouse. There was an intro band, and then Valdy with a few others. Then intermission. Then, Valdy on a stool for nearly two hours. And, despite numerous cries of, "(Play me a) Rock and Roll Tune" from the younger, more rowdy attendees, he never played it. What he did play, and sing, was true magic.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM

Ooops... "Song" instead of "Tune"... I've got a memory like a steel trap... rusted open. Could be the Green, but I'd like to think not (at all).

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM

Meanwhile -- Brian Epstein was one of the worst managers in history, it is common knowledge that he got the worst deals, made unbelievably bad decisions, etc. -- his great claim to fame was his initial drive to get the Beatles recognised, after that it was all downhill.

"Let It Be" is a dreary album, almost as bad as the "Only A Northern Song" fillers the Beatles did to get the second side of the Yellow Submarine album.

They were still geniuses.


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:10 PM

Was Epstein a worse manager for The Beatles than Col. Tom Parker was for Elvis Presley?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:21 AM

Brian Epstein was a genuine man who actually liked and admired The Beatles as artists and would not force them to do anything they didn't want to do. His talent was in the way he presented them on stage i.e. wearing suits and bowing after every number.Col. Tom Parker had no respect for Elvis Presley whatsoever and manipulated him consistently for over twenty years allowing only glimpses of the true talent of The King to shine through i.e. The 68 Comeback Special.However, he did make Elvis one of the richest stars in the world through mind boggling deals with Hollywood and Las Vegas moguls who swallowed all the Colonels hype. Unfortunately for The Beatles Brian Epstein lacked this facility for "cooking up deals".

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:45 AM

no Epstein was a visionary manager. not a great business man, but you can't have everything.

parker was weird.

But they were both smarter than evrybody else around them. its easy to see a field for creative development when somebody else has pointed it out. Thery were the guys who pointed out the potential of markreting rock acts to the world.

its worth pointing out that neither of them had to knock anybody down to get control of their artists. In both cases there was hardly a queue forming to be the manager of Presley or The Beatles.

Also both guys were working in an industry that was going through massive changes. they couldn't really have been expected to do any better.

they were human. They had their limitations.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:06 AM

And that's why we love them all -Brian for the way he hung around mens toilets and the Colonel for making Elvis do " Girl Happy" and " Kissin' Cousins".

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM

With questions like this - are we in danger of encouraging music makers to be in more of a competition than they and life already is?

Is there then a real danger that what we really encourage by this - is winning? And that those names who become well-known and successful will become so as a result of life's natural winners and self-promoters - rather than from life's natural music makers?

Being good at self promotion in any field - could be thought of as genius but success at this can be measured to an extent by the fame received. I am not too sure how musical genius can really be measured.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM

As the voices from a distant past emerge we are told that several parties were interested in both The Beatles and Presley. However, The Beatles in their innocence chose a man they believed to be genuine and committed to their collective cause; "where are we going? To the top Johnny!". Elvis didn't choose anyone to be his manager he was coaxed into it by the people around him who the Colonel manipulated into convincing Elvis it was the best thing for him.Hank Williams manager (Oscar Davis) expressed a keen interest in becoming Elvis' manager before Parker had even heard of Elvis.Allan Williams was The Beatles manager,on and off,for around a couple of years before Brian put his case forward.Talent like this does not go unnoticed for long,and both artists were in ascendency when they were picked up.I would add that both artists were talented, both became amazingly famous,and in very diffent ways had a level of genius involved in their approach to music.It is amazing that neither could read or write music in notation form yet produced music that transcends the pop idiom in which it was formulated and have gone on to even greater success after their respective demises.Genius has to be recognised before it is relevant and this can take on many forms of validation of which this is "maybe" a couple.

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:48 PM

I had heard that Col. Tom Parker nixed a couple of lucrative deals for Elvis. For one, Elvis never toured Europe because of a problem with Parker's passport ... ??

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

From what I have read; for every bad deal the Colonel made, for whatever reasons, he contrived masterstrokes that meant more money for less work in the sixties and still had the declining Presley on top dollars for live appearances in the seventies.Whatever his shortcomings as a manager he is still perceived to be the best artist manager in music history.Which, in his chosen field, seems to afford him some credit and maybe he was a genius.He arrived in the US a penniless imigrant and died a multi millionaire by his own machinations and manipulations he earned the respect of a worldwide industry and could call in favours from the "movers and shakers" for decades. He also kept Elvis under control despite everyone around him saying "Elvis did what he wanted, when he wanted" he never escaped the Colonel and handed over 50% of his earnings willingly! A svengali, a hustler, a carnival barker, a dog catcher, a promoter, a businessman, a genius?

Regards.

Sidewinder.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Brewster.
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM

But did he kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST,Garrett Kid.
Date: 01 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

Yep!! Could be so!!

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:32 AM

Bobert, Amos, Big Mick, kat, Bill D., dianavan, so many others I can't remember them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

Why thank-you DougR. I consider it an honour to be in the same category as the above. However, I am no musical genius. If you ever heard me play the accordian you would certainly agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:50 PM

Raymond Scott. Raymond who??? If anyone here remembers him at all, it probably because he conducted the Lucky Strike Hit Parade Orchestra on "Your Hit Parade" during the 1950s. But Scott was an electronics and musical innovator, producing much forward looking (and quirky) music. His myriad accomplishments can be found at a web page dedicated to his accomplishments.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:02 PM

Raymond Scott Trotter.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM

Doug, do you mean John Scott Trotter who was an arranger and conductor on Decca Records? He did a lot of stuff with Bing Crosby et. al.

Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:03 AM

I was sort of "anti-Shatner" until I read this thread about his " auto-plucking" - now I know he big time like WYWSIG, HarpGirl, and Mr. A. Sale.

Thank you for clarifiying "genius" on the American Continent.