BS: Here we go again in London

Subject: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Four "attempts at explosions" have been reported here in London today - three London Underground stations and a bus. Seems like it's all pretty minor, though.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/21/london.tube/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703777.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

More terror sparked in London. Just watching sky news, a local hospital has been sent an internal memo telling doctors to be on look out for an asian man.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:37 AM

BBC

Australian Broadcasting Corp

I've been listening to the BBC for the last 30 mins & they aren't saying what Sky news is saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM

what do you mean they are not saying what sky news is saying? You mean conflicting reports?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

There's all sorts of confused reports from sources all over the place. But this is nothing like the scale of the incidents on the 7th. I'm in the centre of London, and there's no huge panic, no hordes of helicopters or sirens...

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:39 AM

Police commisioner has said there were '4 small explosions.' Three at tubes and one on a bus. They are saying it appears that the detonators rather than the bombs exploded.

Londoners urged to 'stay where they are.'

One man arrested in last 20mins in Whitehall just outside Downing St, chased and on the ground, surrounded by armed police.

UCH (university college hospital) nr Warren St tube cordoned off. Only one injury reported and it is thought it is the man carrying one of the nail bombs. His back pack exploded and he may have gone to UCH for treatment. Not known if he has been found in the hospital.

London on 'Amber Alert' - the highest alert status. Confusion around 'bombs', as in what went wrong, why didn't they explode , were they dummy bombs with live detonators, is it linked to last bombings or a strange hoax.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

hello, guest, do you have a name?

the BBC has not mentioned any hospital memo

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Tracey Dragonsfriend
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

Yeah, it seems like they're pretty small incidents...

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

The terror never seems to end

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM

Yes my name is Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:42 AM

the hospital memo is post above yours

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:44 AM

The man arrested outside Downing St could just be a non english speaking tourist who didnt comply with the police instructions to move. They've just shown him on live TV lying on the ground, with guns pointing at him. If he is an innocent tourist he has one hell of a day out.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:46 AM

Tony Blair doing live tv broadcast now. Nothing concrete to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM

Hello, Bob, welcome to Mudcat

if you type your name in the Guest window we'll know which posts are from you

I'm currently listening to Tony Blair praising Oz. I wonder if Little Johnny will speak next. BBC World Service says it is a joint news conference.

Police spokesman says 4 small explosions or attemped explosions, but significant none-the-less, & advises folks to resume business.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM

"If he is an innocent tourist he has one hell of a day out"

Thanks GUEST, I needed a small chuckle.

(I didn't get caught on the underground this time, but my flatmate did. He was evacuated from Westminster station.)

"Situation under control...one confirmed casualty, not a fatality"

And that's the latest at 3:51

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Highlandman
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:54 AM

Looks like a minor, inept attempt at a copycat event... whatever happens, Londoners, here's wishing you the best, and don't let the bastards grind ya down.
-HM

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM

Londoners told to resume business so long as it doesnt involve any travelling on tubes. More stations closed in last ten minutes. Large areas of road blocked off. Getting home is going to be interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Sorry yes, i didnt realise there would be so many guests. thanks sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:00 AM

Just arrived from the US this morning. Got safely in at Micca's about an hour before the incident. I'm grateful that it was no worse, but hope that's the end of it.

Allison

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:03 AM

Blair quietly urged "EVERYBODY REMAIN CALM I REPEAT REMAIN CALM!".

In the spirit of rumor mongering I wish everyone a great day

28 DAYS FROM TODAY !!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:04 AM

On another lighter note, the police earlier asked Londoners to be on the look out for ' a man with wires sticking out of his shirt.'

At least this time they kept all the passengers on the trains and buses together and started taking witness reports. Last time a lot of the walking wounded obviously left the scene. Practise makes perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

BBC news - services suspended on 3 underground lines, one confirmed casulty, but no info on this person's injuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

Manitas, CatsPHiddle and myself are accounted for and safe. I stood in the street and shouted out 'Thank you God, for making me such a lazy cow!!' Had I been arsed to get up, I would have been at work this morning and making my way home from Warren Street Station at just about the time the explosion happened.

Most people are just pissed off that they can't get home.. the cricket is still going on (England are trailing.....) and my work colleagues are stuck in the office..... I work in a tower block not 100mts away from Warren St. Tube.

As of 4pm: 4 attempted explosions, 3 tube, 1 bus. Smaller and nowhere near as much damage than 2 weeks ago and situation under control. Oval, Shepherds' Bush and Warren St stations, the bus is in Hackney Road. A man was being chased out of Warren St, but don't know in what context. The bus had its windows blown out, backpack found on the back seat of the upper deck. University College Hospital next to WS has been cordoned off which is possibly the result of the "lookout for .... man" comment.

Stay safe, people.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM

sandra they won't be reporting much on the injured man as it is believed he was the guy carrying the exploding back pack. They won't be identifying him, they'll be hoping the others can be found with info he gives.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,bob
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM

"look out for...man"

What word is missing?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:16 AM

well. I'm logging off & I'll be off to bed soon.

BBC world service coverage is great, so is reception, sometimes it gets noisy on my cheap radio.

guest, thanks for info about injured man.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Cobble
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:27 AM

The police asked television people to switch of camera's outside 10 Downing st, just before Blairs press conference, dont know why though.

          Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Truthful Memory of Martin Gibson
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

Who did it this time?

Mohammad?
Abdul?
Osama
Someone named Patel?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:41 AM

Well said memory of martin gibson, notice Liz the Squeak post, people dare not even say the word 'asian', though even that is misleading, as we are talking specifically muslims here who are orchestrating these terror attacks.

Is that racist to say, of course not, it is fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

That's precisely why I left a word out. I don't know what colour, creed, race or inside leg measurement he was. I just reported what the BBC were saying and my own suggestions from that report.

I was in my local market when I heard the news, listening on my radio headphones; I was appalled by the racist comments that were being made by certain stallholders before we even knew what was happening, they won't be getting my trade again. And I will not incite anyone else to racist comments by jumping on Mr Bandwagon and shouting the odds about what race, religion or colour the pursued man was.

A man was chased out of Warren Street Tube. There is a report of an internal memo to be on the lookout for a particular man. It may not be the same man, but as the hospital is practically on top of the station, it's highly possible. No-one on the BBC has mentioned what race, colour or creed the chased man was.

Please don't let this thread go the same way as the previous one... let's just keep this for people to check in on.... like we did last time.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

Fuck off Guest... I am not afraid to say Asian, when I know it's the truth. Same as I'm not afraid to say Chinese, African, Nigerian, Lithuanian, Martian or Cretin when appropriate.

It's morons like you that make me far angrier than any attempt to bomb innocent people does... because morons like you BREED the contempt that these terrorists hold for life.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Always remember, the people doing the bombing, and the racists and sectarians stirring away in the aftermath have a shared agenda. They both want to set people against each other on the basis of religion or "race".

Responding to those kind of posts just encourages them to keep coming back. If we could all resist the tempttion to reply to them, but instead could just scroll past them and ignore them, they'd drift away soon enough - and if they didn't, so what, it's just graffiti.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

i agree liz, you shouldn't be afraid to say asian, but please bear in mind it is muslims who are terrorizing not asians. Please don't get the idea that it is 'asians' who are to blame for these attacks, asian has a very broad meaning, and i tire of the media using the name asian to describe these attackers.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

David - Seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. From the "more Muslim intolerance" thread:

"The reason i refer to Asians in Keighley as Asians, is because to call them Pakistanis is untrue. They are not from Pakistan, they are from the UK, they are born in the UK. I am of course reffering to second, third generation UK born. The asians grooming young girls in Keighley are born in the country. First generation pakistanis, from my experience deplore the way their children behave, westernized to the extent they have no roots, and when it comes to drug dealing, the elders condemn this fully.

I think it is a bit hasty to claim to know what ethnics 'prefer' to be called. I also think it is irrelvant, as i'm not going to tiptoe on cobbled stones in order not to offend. Unless someone was calling someone a vicious name of abuse then i would speak out, but aside from that, it is irrelvant."

I am confused by your messages. Is this whats called political 'double-speak'?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:18 PM

Police are now saying the UCH incident was not connected to the bombings. Police are calling them 'exploded bombs.' Two men arrested and later released. One man on tube who had an exploding backpack legged it off the tube and got away despite people trying to stop him. Confusion reigns supreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:43 PM

"you shouldn't be afraid to say asian, but please bear in mind it is muslims who are terrorizing not asians"

I am no more afraid to say Muslim than I am to say Asian, but again, I will only say it if I know it to be true. No-one knows if this man was Muslim or not. I know many Muslims who are not Asian. Muslim (Islam) is a religion, not a race. I know even more Asians who are not Muslim. Don't confuse the two.

I envy you your ability to know a persons religious affiliation and ethnic background without a) meeting; b) seeing; c) hearing and d) being told by that person.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:17 PM

I've gotten half a dozen emails from bloggers today, assuring me that the bombs were set by the CIA to make sure that congress made the Patriot Act permanent. Now I wonder why the CIA would set bombs in London to promote and American bill. I do get very very tired of conspiracy theories. But I hope the London catters stay safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:08 AM

Whoever the evil ones are, whatever flavor of human they happen to be, my thoughts are with the British people and the other peoples of the world who have had to deal with the results of evil ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:07 AM

Right, mate. When I say halt, I mean HALT! (Yeah... I know... not PC.)

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 11:53 AM

dianavan you have confused me now, what it is that i said that is confusing you?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 11:58 AM

"...No-one knows if this man was Muslim or not"

Yes, we do. They were Muslims.

"I know many Muslims who are not Asian. Muslim (Islam) is a religion, not a race"

And what race are the muslims who are asian that you know?


"I know even more Asians who are not Muslim. Don't confuse the two".

Yes, thank you for repeating my earlier point, in which i said,

"Please don't get the idea that it is 'asians' who are to blame for these attacks, asian has a very broad meaning, and i tire of the media using the name asian to describe these attackers".

I agree, and that is why i tire of the media always describing the rioters in Bradford as Asians, when they were Muslim, and the same with the recent terror attacks, to call them asian is to criminalize every asian group, when the motive behind these attacks is not the fact that the killers are asian, but they are muslims who believe their faith gives them credence to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 11:59 AM

that was supposed to read, "and what race are the muslims who are NOT asian that you know". sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:07 PM

A warning to teens who jump the turnstiles in the subway.

YOU WILL BE MET WITH DEADLY FORCE

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: MMario
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:10 PM

Is this a British/UK thing? I don't think I've ever seen "Muslim" and "Asian" used as identifiers for the same person.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:15 PM

I don't think the people who are from Pakistan (who are being called "Asian" in this thread), are technically considered a separate race from Europeans. Asians from countries like China and Japan are technically considered a different race from Europeans. Some Muslims who are technically considered Asians are those from Indonesia. I believe that people from what is now Pakistan can technically call themselves "Aryans", or at least descended from "Aryans". I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion so the discussion can get back to the subject of the situation in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:22 PM

It's a British thing. We don't use that term Asians) in Australia for people from the sub-continent. We just call them by the name of the country they come from.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:29 PM

I heard not too long ago, an elderly British gentleman I was teaching use the term "Fuzzy Wuzzies" !!! I didn't dare ask who exactly he was referring to, but it did show that some things die hard here in the U of K.

;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM

The Goverment is trying to avoid the arguement that Blair's involvement with the Iraq War is causing the recent terrorism at home.
UK officials are saying that the terrorists* are South Asian Muslims and not the Arab Muslims from Iraq.

The distinction doesn't fly in my book, but the political Orwellian re definitions are flying fast and furious lately.

*Frankly I think it is too soon to say who did what.
Perhaps the issue of guilt will remain clouded forever.
Some people still think it is too soon to say who shot JFK.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

Ellenpoly, i am sure he did not mean harm by his remark. Back then things were simpler. Mr grandad used to call his shipmate 'darky' but his darker friend used to call him 'whitey'.

These were the days before Political Correctness became the new fascism and criminalized words.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:38 PM

I personally know of Muslims who are British and white, Turkish, black (African origin). Islam is a religion shared by many racial groups, not a racial designation.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:47 PM

Police challenge young "asian" in London tube station, young man tries to escape on stationary train.

Several plain clothes officers follow the man onto the train and shoot him six times in front of terrified passengers.

Muslim leaders call on police to explain the death, alleging a "shoot to kill" policy.

The beat goes on ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:58 PM

Possibly significant ommissions Ake,
he ran onto the train wearing a thick jacket, from close to where failed suicide bomber fled yesterday.
We now know he was not one of the 4. Police say incident is related.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: The Barden of England
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:16 PM

So, we pull out of Iraq and all in the garden is roses.
In your dreams! These people are not true muslims, nor Christians, nor Jews - they are terrorists through and through, who have been brainwashed by people who don't offer themselves up to the same fate.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

Well said Barden.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM

Exactly! They should be called terrorists, plain and simple. To identify them by race or religion, stereotypes innocent people of the same race and/or religion.

BTW David, Carol is right. South Asians or Pakistanis or more closely related to Aryans. That is if you buy into the old racist theory of three distinct races. Genetic reasearch, however, has proven that there are no distinct races and that we all came from the same African mother.

Skin colour, hair and facial features are the result of environmental factors related to migration. We all belong to the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:04 PM

ake... I heard he was only shot five times... me, if I had been on him and he tried to detonate his bomb, I would have shot him six times... if I only had six bullets.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

Remind me never to jump a turnstile in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

No sweat. Just don't run when they (politely) ask you to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

As a Londoner I hope you don't need reminding.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:24 PM

Hi gnu...Still no details as to whether dead man was terrorist or just afraid of police,could have been ordinary criminal.

Strange how the police didn't try to arrest the youth.

I suppose we'll get all the details in time...

Blairs chickens are sure coming home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,average american
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

Blair has been staging himself excellently. He can put into words what The President can barely pronounce.

I think you Brits are well served by Blair and in trying to create a notion of righteous cause and effect ("Blair's chickens coming home to roost") between the English actions in Iraq and the attempt to kill civilians in the London underground is either shameful or small minded. In other words, some of you are saying that terrorists are okay when you agree with their stated cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:38 PM

Didn't try to arrest the youth? If I had twenty police CHASING me and YELLING at me, I might think it a tad proper to comply. Try to arrest?... oh, it's a joke... you are yanking my chain... hehehe... sorry... I take some posts too seriously... sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:43 PM

I hope it turns out that the shot man actually was something to do with the bombing. It's been announced that he definitely wasn't one of the four men identified from CCTV cameras from yesteday's incidents.

"Met Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said officers fired after the man was challenged and refused to obey police."   That's a bit worrying - there was a recent trial of two police officers who shot a man who failed to respond to a shouted challenge and turned out to be deaf. And they weren't even sitting on him at the time they shot him, as appears to have been the case in Stockwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Guest aa....I dont think there's anything righteous about terrorism in general, or suicide bombing in particular and I resent your assertion that I support either...under any circumstances.

Blair was well warned before he embarked on his Iraq policy that something of this nature was very likely to happen in the UK along with warnings of instability in the Middle East.

Blair chose to ignore these warnings and massive demos by the public in an attempt to make a name for himself in what he and Bush thought would be an "easy war" .
Saddam would be overthrown and the Iraqi people would hail them as heros.
Blair would surely have accepted the plaudits of victory, now he must accept responsibility for the carnage we see in Iraq and London

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

According to the beeb the police followed him from a house they had been watching and when confronted he legged it. I'm not at all happy about the police being trigger happy but if that one copper really believed that the guy was a danger to those people on the tube, and he had the power to do something, what was he to do? What would you have done in the time available.

It's pretty obvious the police would have preferred him alive for the information he held.

And as for the akenanoos of this world, do yourself. and us, a favour: nip over to amazon (do it through mudcat of course) and order a book called the Lion and The Unicorn, the author's name is Blair, oh sorry you may know him better by his pen-name George Orwell.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: jpk
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

this would have happened regardless of what blair or anyone else did or did not do,unfortualy that is the truth of it.hate needs no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: average american
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:11 PM

ake, you sound like an apologist who resents being called an apologist. london underground is bombed, your take is it's blair's fault because he follows a policy which disagrees with what terrorists want.

The fact that blair's policy is one yourself disagree with is just coincidental? this is my dilemma.

given the choice as i understand it i go blair. he can justify his position with words most excellent.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:29 PM

The point is, the policy Blair followed was one which he had been warned by many people, including the British intelligence services and the CIA, would produce many many more terrorists, both in Iraq and around the world.

It's a bit as if he was a firefighter using petrol instead of water. And when people comnplained about this they'd be branded as friends of the arsonists.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

aa....Wrong.... my take is that Blair followed a policy which disagreed with what a large section of British opinion wanted regardless of the distortions and downright lies used to try and convince them.

I will agree with you on one point, Blair is a consumate liar, but lately he dosn't even try to justify his position.

jpk...Do you seriously believe that if Blair had refused to follow Bush into Iraq the London bombings would still have occured?
The terrorists are British born and bred, most of them hardly out of their teens.
I saw young Muslims being interviewed on TV last week, they can't understand what we're doing in Iraq and what Iraq has to do with the "War on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Its no wonder the teens don't understand the justification for war in Iraq since we now know that the invasion of Iraq was well into the planning stages before 911. Its also confusing because none of the terrorists were from Iraq. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism, whatsoever. If I were them, I'd be confused and angry, too. They are the ones who have to live with the stereotypes and the discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:17 PM

dianava, you say "...none of the terrorists were from Iraq". Now I assume you're talking about the 9/11 variety but, as we now know, you could just as easily be talking about the 7/7 attacks.

So, pray tell, why does a group of British Pakistanis bomb London? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:34 PM

I was responding to Ake's comment, "I saw young Muslims being interviewed on TV last week, they can't understand what we're doing in Iraq and what Iraq has to do with the "War on terror".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:35 PM

C'mon dianavan (or akenoonoo) answer the guest's question.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:35 PM

Why does a group of British people bomb Baghdad? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: average american
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:37 PM

ake:

quoting your last post:

I will agree with you on one point, Blair is a consumate liar, but lately he dosn't even try to justify his position.

since i in no way accused or intimate that blair lied about anything, you are the not a consummate liar, you are an average liar

it falls to you ake to speak for yourself, preferably by not lying again, and for yourself call out what you believe to be blair's lies.

judging between blair's statements and your posts, the odds are against you.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:38 PM

C'mon , I'm interested. Where is the connection?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:54 PM

We're waiting...

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

Still waiting

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,thomas friedman
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:18 PM

Giving the Hatemongers No Place to Hide
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
I wasn't surprised to read that British police officers in white protective suits and blue gloves were combing through the Iqra Learning Center bookstore in Leeds for clues to the 7/7 London bombings. Some of the 7/7 bombers hung out at the bookstore. And I won't be surprised if today's bombers also sampled the literature there.

Iqra not only sold hatemongering Islamist literature, but, according to The Wall Street Journal, was "the sole distributor of Islamgames, a U.S.-based company that makes video games. The video games feature apocalyptic battles between defenders of Islam and opponents. One game, Ummah Defense I, has the world 'finally united under the Banner of Islam' in 2114, until a revolt by disbelievers. The player's goal is to seek out and destroy the disbelievers."

Guess what: words matter. Bookstores matter. Video games matter. But here is our challenge: If the primary terrorism problem we face today can effectively be addressed only by a war of ideas within Islam - a war between life-affirming Muslims against those who want to turn one of the world's great religions into a death cult - what can the rest of us do?

More than just put up walls. We need to shine a spotlight on hate speech wherever it appears. The State Department produces an annual human rights report. Henceforth, it should also produce a quarterly War of Ideas Report, which would focus on those religious leaders and writers who are inciting violence against others.

I would compile it in a nondiscriminatory way. I want the names of the Jewish settler extremists who wrote "Muhammad Is a Pig" on buildings in Gaza right up there with Sheik Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, a Saudi who is imam of Islam's holy mosque in Mecca. According to the Memri translation service, the imam was barred from Canada following "a report about his sermons by Memri that included Al-Sudayyis calling Jews 'the scum of the earth' and 'monkeys and pigs' who should be 'annihilated.' Other enemies of Islam were referred to by Sheik Al-Sudayyis as 'worshipers of the cross' and 'idol-worshiping Hindus' who must be fought."

Sunlight is more important than you think. Those who spread hate do not like to be exposed, noted Yigal Carmon, the founder of Memri, which monitors the Arab-Muslim media. The hate spreaders assume that they are talking only to their own, in their own language, and can get away with murder. When their words are spotlighted, they often feel pressure to retract, defend or explain them.

"Whenever they are exposed, they react the next day," Mr. Carmon said. "No one wants to be exposed in the West as a preacher of hate."

We also need to spotlight the "excuse makers," the former State Department spokesman James Rubin said. After every major terrorist incident, the excuse makers come out to tell us why imperialism, Zionism, colonialism or Iraq explains why the terrorists acted. These excuse makers are just one notch less despicable than the terrorists and also deserve to be exposed. When you live in an open society like London, where anyone with a grievance can publish an article, run for office or start a political movement, the notion that blowing up a busload of innocent civilians in response to Iraq is somehow "understandable" is outrageous. "It erases the distinction between legitimate dissent and terrorism," Mr. Rubin said, "and an open society needs to maintain a clear wall between them."

There is no political justification for 9/11, 7/7 or 7/21. As the Middle East expert Stephen P. Cohen put it: "These terrorists are what they do." And what they do is murder.

Finally, we also need to shine a bright light on the "truth tellers." Every week some courageous Arab or Muslim intellectual, cleric or columnist publishes an essay in his or her media calling on fellow Muslims to deal with the cancer in their midst. The truth tellers' words also need to be disseminated globally. "The rulers in these countries have no interest in amplifying the voices of moderates because the moderates often disagree with the rulers as much as they disagree with the extremists," said Husain Haqqani, author of the new book "Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military." "You have to deal us moderates into the game by helping to amplify our voices and exposing the extremists and their amen corner."

Every quarter, the State Department should identify the Top 10 hatemongers, excuse makers and truth tellers in the world. It wouldn't be a cure-all. But it would be a message to the extremists: you are free to say what you want, but we are free to listen, to let the whole world know what you are saying and to protect every free society from hate spreaders like you. Words matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:25 PM

Guest (SuSu?) - "So, pray tell, why does a group of British Pakistanis bomb London? Just exactly where is the Iraq connection?"

There are absolutely no Iraqi's connected to the 911 terrorists or the London bombing that I know of. However, according to recent surveys, most people believe that if Britain and the U.S. had stayed out of Iraq, the London bombings wouldn't have happened.

The bombing seems to me to be an act of retaliation for U.S. and British aggression in the Middle East. Have you ever heard of Pan-Arabic identity. Probably not. Obviously Bush didn't know about that either or he would have stayed home.

That is why it is confusing for the teens. Thats what they were saying and I am agreeing that they should be confused. Thats what happens when Bush and Blair lie. They confuse the issues, just like you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:42 PM

dianavan said
If I were them, I'd be confused and angry, too.

Now this sounds like support,succour at least.

The bombing seems to me to be an act of retaliation for U.S. and British aggression in the Middle East. Have you ever heard of Pan-Arabic identity

Ugh, Pakistan?

The reason why no one will answer the guest's question is that there is no real link. The fact is there exists a group of radicalised muslims who wish to see the demise of the west, all of it. In their eyes it is a war between Islam and the west, even if we have the sense to see it's really a relatively small group of bloody lunatics.

They're at it again, as we sit here arguing hundreds of people are injured in Egypt. Go on tell me I'm jumping to conclusions but I'm faily sure it wasn't a radical Amish group.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:47 PM

Dianavan, If Bush had not gotten Blair to go along in the invasion of Iraq, the so called laughable coalition would have been a bare faced unilateral invasion of Iraq by the US alone. UK gave the only substantive support in spite of a few hundred Polish and Spanish support troops.

Liz, perhaps you could request the right to extend or revise your (overly passionate) remarks. (G)

Bush says "this is a war against idealogues, this is a war against killers".

I can picture Osama saying "George took those words right out of my November 2004 tape recording".

Honestly, The US may not be the reigning champions at killing innocent people but we are almost #1.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 09:51 PM

One thing for certain, Blair paid little heed to the grey eminences of the past. As Churchill once warned, interfere in the Middle East at your peril. Same old, same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:05 PM

On a lighter note, it appears that in this case all of the main explosive charges failed to detonate. It must be rather disconcerting to press the button and find you're still sitting on a tube train or bus with a ringing in your ears and a rather tattered, smoking rucksack on your lap. Perhaps we'll hear a news item along the lines of:

Abdul Ben Banger, Msc Chemistry (failed) was found in central london with his head kicked in.

BTW from the CCTV pictures of the bombers released, it looks as if this lot were more likely to be of African origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:46 PM

I've just read (Reuters) that the man killed had just been in a house the police had been keeping under surveillance. Then he goes into the tube, and instead of halting when ordered to do so, leaps over the turnstile and attempts to escape. If he was innocent, he must have had a strong death wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 11:56 PM

Shakey - "Now this sounds like support,succour at least."

I already said a I could understand their confusion. I was referring to the teens not the terrorists.

Obviously you can read but your comprehension needs improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:23 AM

Hello again ,Hows the lynch mob this morning?

Shakey , aa, jpk et al.

The young people interviewed in Leeds are British born but are also Muslims. They obviosly feel the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent killing of Iraqi civilians in towns like Falluja is an attack on fellow Muslims who had nothing at all to do with 9/11 or any other fundamentalist terror.
I'm quite sure you all know this already and are practicing what McGrath calls "sophistry"

You may not agree with the mindset of the young Muslims,but its a "fact of life" so we better start addressing the problem.
If we dont start changing our foreign policy, and educating bozos like Shakey and aa every city in Britain could turn into a war zone.

While on the subject of Terrorism, the word is fraught with hypocrisy.
On another thread, one of our most valued moderates, McGrath, reminded us that the West assisted the Chetchian militants in their fight against the Soviet Union, atrocities committed were horrific, and these were the same militatnts who were to carry out the murder of the innocents in Beslan.

Isnt politics a murky business?....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:36 AM

The same groups are bombing civillians in Iraq.
Did you see the effect of that petrol tanker in a town centre.
Was that in revenge for what we did in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:43 AM

I totally agree with what Thomas Friedman was saying in the editorial that an anonymous guest has copied and pasted here in this thread, about shining a light on hate speach WHEREVER it is found. Including hate speach directed at Muslims. That is what many of us are attempting to do in threads like this one.

But Mr. Friedman also seems to be saying that the US and Britain are entitled to kill as many innocent civilians in as many countries as they want to, and that they are entitled to expect that they will not be criticized in any way for doing so. Sorry to disappoint, but Mr. Friedman does most certainly not occupy the moral high ground on this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:55 AM

I suspect, Keith A of Hertford, that incidents such as the one you refer to are more the product of the amount of chaos (bordering on civil war) that the US and Britain have uneashed upon Iraq through waging an illegitimate war against that country, which was planned for and executed with an astonishing level of arrogance and incompetence, and also the total lack of a plan for "winning the peace".

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:33 AM

Mothers were throwing children from windows.
People who think it OK to do that to other human beings have to be faced.
Would you prefer they were in power?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:42 AM

dianavan and CarolC why dont you start up your own thread and just talk to each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:25 AM

Ake, I'm pleased you've learned a new word - "sophistry" - funnily enough it's the word I used somewhile back in connection with diana & carol.

So, according to you, our foreign policy should be based upon whatever a bunch of fanatics believe it should be, interesting idea.

Make no mistake ake the west will prevail. The biggest losers here are, potentially, the ordinary law abiding muslims, so why haven't the muslim leaders throughout the world ever organised a global conference to decide how they can defeat the fanatics?

You are correct in as much as education is necessary, but as I sit here in a room with two thousand books, which I bought with my own money that I could have spent on purchasing explosives, I don't believe it to be me that needs it the most.

You may, if you wish, continue to make excuses for these people but don't expect me to excuse you.

Time will tell if I am right or you are wrong

Time for cricket

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:47 AM

"So, according to you, our foreign policy should be based upon whatever a bunch of fanatics believe it should be, interesting idea."

That sounds familiar enough. Isn't that what's already happened in Washington?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

( good on ya kev ) :) lor

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:27 AM

'The police tried to stop the man and ask him his intentions. He detonated the bomb as he sat on the train. Forty people died and scores more were maimed.'

That could have been the story. What exactly would you have done inOBU if you were the policeman on the train?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM

Well... being a Quaker and not carring a gun, I sure would not have shot him? But, if we are playing make believe here, how about, what if I was a president or PM, I would not have invaded a nation who had not made war on me, and I would not have given Mr. Husain poison gas to use on the kurds. Well, let's pretend we are voters, and stop our nations terrorist policies which add fuel to the terrorist situation. It is time the world grew up and stopped using murder as a way to deal with issues of markets and trade and all the other reasons Paul Wolfowitz wrote about the "need" for this war two years before mr Bush ran for president and led the PM into this war of agression.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Confused
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:48 AM

"a group of British Pakistanis"

How can you have "British Pakistanis"? They're either British with roots in Pakistan, or Pakistanis who live in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:40 AM

Without ALL the facts it is pointless to speculate ! Hopefully , the facts WILL be publicised soon !

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:41 AM

Oh Yes -And 100

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Shakey...your getting confused again.

I'm not interested in making excuses for terrorists from the East or West!!
I am interested in making sure that the condition does not escalate into a racial/religious war in the cities of the UK.

I believe our foreign policy was wrong and strong arm tactics now will only inflame the situation.
Our foreign policy is of course driven by the need for us to continue our wasteful and materialistic lifestyle, but we'll leave that aside for the moment.

Dont be too hasty in giving away your famous spade by the way, judging by your performance on this thread you may have to use it some day to earn your living ...Howzattt!! Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:54 AM

Keith A of Hertford, I don't understand your question, although I suspect that InOBU has answered it in his 23 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

inOBU I agree with you completely about our involvemnt in the war. I just find it difficult to reconcile people's criticism of the way the police acted in this particular situation without having an alternative idea. That isn't directed at you.

It seems the shot guy was unrelated to the bombings. I didn't vote for Blair but am living with the consequence of his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM

This proves that even a totally anonymous Guest can make excellent observations. I feel exactly the same--I sure as hell not only never voted for Bush --for plenty of good reasons--- or anybody else I thought might support his criminally stupid war, but, as I've said before, as a registered Republican I called the White House hot line before the invasion and warned them that if Bush invaded Iraq, every picture of a dead woman or child broadcast on al-Jazeera would result in more terrorists all over the world.

QED.

Now we all have to live with the consequences.

But that still does not make it all right for civilians in the UK or the US to be blown up.

Anybody who thinks it does is just not capable of rational thought, and therefore not worth debating.

I still think Bush should be impeached, convicted and removed from office immediately, just for discontinuing, at the behest of a few US firms who do not want the workers' compensation liability, 2 programs in Russia which were securing nuclear material.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:28 PM

Obviously he should also have been impeached, convicted and removed for starting the Iraq war--but it doesn't look like it's going to happen any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:32 PM

We are now in the age of 'anything goes'

'Luck' will have a lot to do with things in future.

... for innocent civilians.

... as well as innocent civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

Hopefully , the facts WILL be publicised soon !

And one of the facts that has now been confirmed is that the man shot five times while he was pinned to the ground had nothing whatsoever to do with the bombers. He'd just had the ill fortune to come out of a block of flats (an apartment building as they say in the States), one of which was under surveillance. And when he was challenged by a bunch of strangers in plain clothes he made the mistake of running away.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:20 PM

Mc Grath he made the mistake of vaulting a barrier into a tube station and running onto a train. Not quite as simple as 'running away.'

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:31 PM

If you think you are being chased by a bunch of thugs, running into a station full of people and getting on a train might seem quite a sensible thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:45 PM

I have no idea where the chase started, but knowing Stockwell station it is the last place I would have run into. I would have run into the very busy road outside it, or one of the numerous shops next to it, or into the huge pub opposite it, or up to the manned ticket box that he ran past to vault the barrier, No I wouldn't have run into a tube, vaulted a barrier and boarded a train.

I think it was a tragic error of judgment from all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:53 PM

"BTW David, Carol is right. South Asians or Pakistanis or more closely related to Aryans. That is if you buy into the old racist theory of three distinct races..."

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Let us not get into whether or not race does exist, because quite frankly, i would wipe the floor with you. lolol.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

And Jesse Owens proved it

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:02 PM

Erm..so are you saying Carol buys into the old racist theory of three distinct races, or what?

Actually, I don't. But I am willing to go along with established orthodoxy on the subject when it comes to describing how the scientific community currently approaches the subject of "race". Which is what I was doing when I made my post on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:03 PM

Myself and others on this thread have been wrongly accused of excusing terrorism.

Many of these same accusers are now trying to justify a cold blooded killing of an innocent man in front of dozens of terrified passengers.

I used to think a fresh breeze blew through the pages of Mudcat, these days the fetid stench of hatred permeates the threads.
I thought Folkies to be open minded, caring..for their brothers and sisters, and above all, supporters of truth and justice.

The opinions on this thread sicken me.

Yes "welcome to the police state" most of you will be quite happy here.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

"most of you" - I think if you checked on the actual numbers of posts and of posters on these issues and how they've stacked up, you'd want to revise that opinion akenaton.

Especially if you leave out the nameless GUESTs (on both sides), since there's no way of knowing how many or how few people are in behind the mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:15 PM

BNP seeks to make capital out of bombings (Guardian)

It's not only about Iraq (Guardian)

What it adds up to is a more mixed picture than either Blair or the anti-war movement has allowed. Iraq has played a key part - of course it has - in angering large numbers of young Muslims, pulling them towards an extremist message once confined to the lunatic fringe. But that message is not only about Iraq, Afghanistan or even the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza - and we delude ourselves if we think it is.

Why I link to the first article is obvious: There's no need to help them.

I like in particular the second article, for it shows in which way the analysis predominant among Mudcaters falls short of understanding the basic motivation of the war the terrorists feel themselves to have to fight.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:41 PM

I agree with a lot of what that second article has to say, even about the motivations of the most extreme Islamists. Where I would tend to differ with some people on that subject is simply that I believe that just about everything the governments of the US and Britain have done, ostensibly for the purpose of "defeating" these extremist Islamists has, in actuality, had the effect of assisting them in their efforts, and making them far bigger and stronger than they would be otherwise. The US and Britain are getting the exact opposite results from the ones they say they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:50 PM

Ake,

On the worst day of your life you have never been a racist. That is just not you. If anyone said that--well, they're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

Apologies McGrath and Bruce, I actually posted to the wrong thread.

I had intended to respond to some of the disgraceful comments on the other thread pertaining to the shooting in London.

I know there are some good people here and I include you both in their number, but there are also many who emerge from under their stones at times like these, spouting venom.

They forget that the bombings on the underground, the execution of the young man by trigger happy police are part of a much bigger picture directed by neo cons in America and Thatcherites in Britain.
I believe this to be the most dangerous period of modern history including the "Cold War" and we must be much more careful about how we react to terrorism. The short sighted among us still babble of "standing up to terror"...Smashing the cells... Kill them all!

Its unworkable, the terrorists are among us ,they could be our sons or daughters,our neighbours, people who service our cars or serve our food.
If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas and continue with our policy in Iraq, the next bomb could be silent and kill thousands and still we would be no nearer to defeating terrorism.

We who try to understand why terrorism exists, are abused for being "apologists", but in reality those who support policy which makes terrorism more likely to occur are the biggest danger to our people.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas

What are you referring to?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:10 PM

"...the basic motivation of the war the terrorists feel themselves to have to fight."

The issues that radicalise people aren't necessarily the same as issues and the causes that they subsequently adopt. Once people have got sucked into identifying with a radical ideology, the human tendency is to take on board all kinds of other stuff.

I'm sure there were all kinds of ordinary Germans who got into supporting the Nazis because they were angry about being unemployed, or about political corruption or liked the pageantry and the strength through joy stuff. And went on from there to be drawn into other things.

So there is no contradiction between pointing to the war on Iraq as a crucial factor in driving many Muslims into the arms of the extremists, and recognising that the extremists have a wider agenda than Iraq. (In fact my conviction all along has been that while most Muslims - indeed most people outside of the USA - deplored the war, for the people at the heart of "Al Qaeda" it was something to be welcomed as an enormous success.)

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:37 AM

Ake,

let me tell you what I consider a very fundamental omission (and mistake) in your thinking when posting about terrorism in this and many other threads. I see a similar mistake in some others' thinking (or at least argumentation).

Your thinking reduced to a very short summary (it may look like a parody due to the shortness, but that is not my intention):
(1) Understand the reasons for terrorism. Understand what they fight for and what grieves them.
(2) Remove everything that grieves them and do nothing that makes terrorism (more) likely.

At no moment I have seen in your thinking any indication of the third stage (between stage 1 and stage 2), namely an evaluation whether one wants (or should want) to give in to a demand or not.

Two examples from history:
(1) The British govenments confronted with terrorism from the IRA (I only look at that part now though there has been loyalist terrorism as well) had to try to understand (I completely agree with that part of your thinking) the reasons for the terrorism from the IRA and to look at the demands. One very big reason was the treatment of the nationalist community by the unionists (burning down houses, forceful evictions, gerrymandering 'majorities', differential treatment in housing decisions and in jobs etc). I consider it a very big mistake by many successive govenments not to have reacted early and quickly to these demands even against the will of a unionist majority. One big demand of the IRA was a united Ireland. I consider it a correct decision by the Britsh governments not to give in to this demand (against the will of a small majority) and to insist that such a result (united Ireland) only can be reached by parliamentary and democratic means.

(2) When the British government was confronted with demands from the Nazi government (verbatim or by action) it tried for a long time to appease the Nazi government. They also could have given them Poland or whatever came after without acting. They did act and as a result of their action many British people died and increased terrorism (by bombs from above) was one of the results. But I think they did the right thing at that time. Any politics that has as the sole aim to reduce the number of own people killed in the short run is predictable and invites to further (terrorist) threats.

And in that sense 'standing up to terror' is a good idea. There should be no immediate reward for trying to enforce an aim by terror.

If one reads what the hard core of those fundamentalist Muslim terrorists really want one can only say: We'll never agree to give you that (caliphate, sharia, treatment of women and people with other faiths...). Even if you kill more of us.

On the other hand, they make their immediate demands (retreat from Iraq, for instance) much more palatable for the large majority of Muslims who mostly do neither share their final aims nor approve of the methods used. To look how one can remove quickly the need for a demand that is shared by a large fraction of their co-religionists from which they sample the new recruits is a good idea that I agree with.

But one has to decide at each stage anew whether one wants to give in to one demand and not make this decision for once and all. One has to accept that such decisions will cost lives of the own and other populations.

I still consider the decision to attack Afghanistan the correct decision. Each government should know that harbouring terrorists can be the end of the government and can force them personally to a life on the run. That decision could hope for some understanding even among Muslims in that historic situation. I consider the decision to attack Iraq a bloody (in both senses) error. Understanding that move was very low even among most non-Muslims. A move that can be seen as a defense against an attack (like Afghanistan could be seen) is different from a move that hardly can be pictured as defensive (Iraq).

If one does not make the evaluation whether one wants to give in each time anew one gives the wrong signal to terrorists and risks more lives in the long run.

What if British rightwing terrorists attack Muslim targets and lives with bombs and just demand that all Muslims have to be expatriated? What if two terrorist groups threaten to target London with mutually exclusive aims (one group: we'll bomb you if there'll be no united Ireland, the other: we'll bomb you if there is no union)?

A politic that puts appeasements first at all (long term) costs is wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:56 AM

Quite simply the best post I've seen on MC

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

But here's the distinction that you aren't seeing in what some of us are saying, Wolfgang. At least in my case.

We don't give in to the demands of the extremists. What we do is behave justly and humanely toward the people those extremists will use as their available pool of recruits if we don't treat them justly and humanely. That's an important distinction, since the extremists (even Hitler) can't do their dirty work without the help of a lot of people.

And that has been the flaw in the foreign policy of governments like those in the US and the UK. We have been treating a hell of a lot of people like they aren't people. This kind of treatment radicalizes them when they would not have been radicalized otherwise. And it makes them ripe for the picking for the extremists.

What needs to happen is to deprive the extremists of any available pool of recruits by treating people like people, and being entirely above reproach ourselves in our own behavior toward our fellow human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM

And that has been the flaw in the foreign policy of governments like those in the US and the UK. We have been treating a hell of a lot of people like they aren't people. This kind of treatment radicalizes them when they would not have been radicalized otherwise. And it makes them ripe for the picking for the extremists.

What exactly was the treatment of the four bombers in the UK that made them ripe for the picking?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:12 PM

I could take a guess, but it would only be a guess. But I can think of quite a few possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

So your statement was based on ????? Nothing! Don't bother taking a guess you obviously have no idea of these mens backgrounds in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM

My 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM post is based on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:24 PM

In that case answer my question of 11.55 without saying you have to resort to guessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

I just finished reading an article that said they were angry about the way Muslims were being treated by the US and the UK in Iraq. I could use that as documentation to back up what I said, but since none of us is in the minds of these men, and we will never be able to ask them about it, it is impossible to know for sure all of the factors that culminated in their resorting to such violence. Any attempt to do so really is a foolish exercise.

It is possible, however, to talk to the people who are still alive and who are becoming radicalized by the foreign policies of the governments of the US and UK. And I think that would be a very constructive exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:42 PM

I just finished reading an article that said they were angry about the way Muslims were being treated by the US and the UK in Iraq. I could use that as documentation to back up what I said, but since none of us is in the minds of these men, and we will never be able to ask them about it, it is impossible to know for sure all of the factors that culminated in their resorting to such violence. Any attempt to do so really is a foolish exercise.


You finished reading what article? Who are 'they?'

So by your own admission you trying to radicalize suicide bombers reasons are 'foolish.' Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:47 PM

It was a BBC article.

Like I said, there are still plenty of people we can talk with who can tell us what is causing an increase in the number and scope of people who are becoming radicalized. There's nothing foolish in communicating with people. And we have been told by many of those already radicalized what their reasons are for that. The reasons given are pretty consistant with what I have already said.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:50 PM

Couldn't these various GUESTs on this thread who disagree with each other from time to time work out some way of differentiating each other? Then instead of putting in times and dates and such, they could just say "in my last post" like anyone else. Makes life easier for everyone.

..............
What exactly was the treatment of the four bombers in the UK Thta misses the point. You don't need to be mistreated yourself to be angry and "radicalised" perhaps by the mistreatment of other people with you feel an identity.

People who share a religious identity, such as Muslims, Jews or Christians of various sorts, are very likely feel this kind of identity in face of what they see as oppression or persecution of co-religionists, and that can lead to appalling things happening.   But when we seek for the roots of these events, it's no good just looking in the immediate circumstances of the individuals concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:08 PM

Wolfgang...Thank you for that courteous and interesting reply.

I think we are both on the same wavelength regarding terrorism and how to combat it, but we do differ in how we see the present situation.

Although I am a severe critic of the direction of Western culture and the attitude of our government to other peoples and cultures, I do realise that we are basically dealing with madmen.
The problem is that these madmen are in a position to do dreadful damage to the ordinary people of Britain.
It is relalivly easy for them to sustain a terror campaign, and due to the fact that they "welcome death"there is very little that our security services can do to stop it.

I firmly believe that this is a war that we cannot win by aggression.
For once "might" is not at all sure to triumph,and we have no alternative but to start giving ground in our foreign policy.

Attempting to put pressure on the insurgents in Iraq has had disasterous results both here and in Iraq.

To compare a battle against terrorism with a conventional war ,is simplistic in the extreme, and the rhetoric of politicians who want to convince the people that they are in control of the situation, when in fact they are afraid to step back and re-examine their policy.

So in conclusion Wolfgang, I hope you understand that I am not an apologist for terror, but someone looking into an abiss, whos only concern is that this country does not descend into madness because of the folishness and inflexibility of our leaders ....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:17 PM

carol there are huge sections of society that are disadvantaged one way or another. Women and disabled to name two. They don't strap explosives onto their backs and murder innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:17 PM

Wolfgang, great post. I have nothing to say against it, and indeed the "evaluate every time" point is both well made and very valid.

But I think you could still be misunderstanding ake's stance, by equating a wish to understand what drives people to terrorism with "appeasement". I don't think ake suggested giving in to any terrorists' demands - I don't think that there have been any so far in any case, at least not from the organisations claiming to have been involved in the London bombings. Neither do I believe that his wish to understand any grievances by a section of the populace is driven by a wish to appease that section, but rather by a wish to identify and recognise any wrongs committed (or perceived) so as to be able to deal with them. And "dealing with them" can include education, better attempts at integration, and so on.

So, even while I (personally) agree with the Met's "shoot at the head" policy in these dire times, despite the senseless loss of an innocent life yesterday; even as I would not want the government to give in to any terrorist demands, if and when they come; I would still advocate a more honest review by the government of their actions to date, especially with regard to the Iraq occupation; and I would press for more understanding and integration of the various cultures living in Britain. Not to appease - but to make life better for us all.

Dogged determination that one's past actions have been all correct should not be confused for integrity; it's only bloody-mindedness; not a characteristic that makes for good neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

carol there are huge sections of society that are disadvantaged one way or another. Women and disabled to name two. They don't strap explosives onto their backs and murder innocents.

There is an enormous difference between being "disadvantaged" and being invaded and occupied by foreign governments, resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of innocent (civilian) lives. As McGrath pointed out, one doesn't need to be the one directly affected by these things to be impacted upon and influenced by them. When one member of NATO is threatened, all other member nations have agreed to come to their defense (with force of arms). This is not so different from the idea of Muslims coming to the defense of other Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

Ake, your last post crossed with mine. You were doing OK until your "giving ground in our foreign policy" statement. Not sure if I agree with that as stated - perhaps if you'd said "review our foreign policy in the light of international public opinion" I might have found it easier to swallow :-)

It's true that drawing parallels between a conventional war and terrorism is likely misleading; this "war" may not be won by conventional army tactics or strategies. But there are also other tools, more applicable: better police work; better intelligence; better community spirit; better understanding.

"Giving ground" can only be any use if it is a result of negotiation - so that you can focus your "giving in" where it matters. But there have been no attempts by the perpetrators to negotiate; no demand to sit round a table "or else". All we have seen is reprehensible action. To try and second-guess the specific reasons driving these specific terrorists is futile, no matter what slogans they shout. And let's say you second-guessed right, and you gave in on the right points, and they piped down; what protects you from the next batch of terrorists? Much better to understand your community, its needs and its fears. Then at least you have a better chance of not creating future terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Mohammad
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

CarolC, your check is in the mail. Thanks for your support.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM

we have no alternative but to start giving ground in our foreign policy

Oh no El Grecko, akenaton's position is clearly appeasement.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:47 PM

Keep your check, Mohammed.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

carol you really must put that to the families of the muslims murdered in London two weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

Guest..Shakibus..Just noticed your usual snide remark about my lack of vocabulary.

Your right ,I have learned from Mr McGrath not just words, but how to debate without being offensive, to have regard for others opinions when presented sincerely, among many other things.

There are people on this forum whos opinions I respect, but you are so full of arrogance wind and piss, that any opinions you express are of little interest.

You continue to quote a phrase from one of my posts cocerning the shooting up of Muslim areas.

I thought everyone would have read of the targeting of a house in London by armed police using CS gas fired from a commandeered house across the street.
Apparently after the attack, a search of the premises by police yielded nothing.
Actions like this are sure to inflame an already fraught situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:53 PM

And your over dramatization just pours oil on troubled waters?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:56 PM

Guest, 24 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM, I have a better idea. Why don't you go and have a talk with them yourself? Ask them how they feel about the kinds of decisions they have to face every day as Muslims... how to be a good Muslim while watching many thousands of their fellow Muslims being slaughtered by the very government of the country they have adopted as their own, and for dubious reasons at best. I sure am glad I don't have to face those kinds of issues in my daily life. I bet if you had a talk with them and really listened to what it's like for them, you would have some difficulty continuing your current line of reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

"One big demand of the IRA was a united Ireland. I consider it a correct decision by the Britsh governments not to give in to this demand (against the will of a small majority) and to insist that such a result (united Ireland) only can be reached by parliamentary and democratic means."

... but they never gave into any demands, Wolfgang.
Their refusal to deal with the United Ireland issue was a handyexcuse for not dealing with any of it.

That is why the situation in the World these days is such as we have.

Successive major World governments have refused to deal properly with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Osama Bin-Laden himself points to this festering sore as the focus of his jihad.

Would an intelligent person not try and focus a bit on that, perhaps?

Engagement might show a willingness from the major players in the present global guerilla war, to desist, when they see some of their demands being addressed.

It could be something for our respected leaders to wrap their heads around while they're waiting for the next strike

Would a responsible leader, or benevolent tyrant not try and do all in their power to protect their citizens, rather than let them suffer because of their own intransigence and higher adgendas?

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM

carol we don't need to talk to them. We have heard what they have to say for ourselves. And not one of them is trying to justify the murder of their relatives by fellow muslims. Only you have taken that stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:00 PM

And not one of them is trying to justify the murder of their relatives by fellow muslims. Only you have taken that stance.

Oh no I haven't. If you had actually read my posts, you would know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

Sorry El Greko...Cross posted again.

I'v just got in from work, and rushed off that post without re-reading.
I think your probably right about the wording of that passage, but you are a wordsmith, whereas I struggle on.

At least I'm sincere in the opinions I post...I hope you understand that?

I find it easier to put my thoughts into words in the morning,as after a hard days graft i feel the effect of too many years..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

Well actually ake I wasn't making a point about your vocab and I have never mentioned the "shooting up of Muslim areas", I haven't even seen the thread let alone quoted from it.

If I have ridiculed you or your opinions then tough. That's what I do, nobody's perfect. I like humour I think it's powerful, certainly far more powerful than simply swearing, which is something I don't do but you do.

I first joined the Labour party 30 years ago and ever since have been fighting the loony left who never get anything done, they just sit back and criticise. Well you know what? You're more than a nuisance you're dangerous, I see no difference between the loony left and the BNP scum.

Carry on with your nonsense and meanwhile Tony Blair will carry on making a dozen decisions every day that affect millions of people while you decide which thread to pollute.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM

You and your like....Mr Blair , Mr Straw and many more, are far more dangerous to the well being of the British people than I am.
As can be seen from the shambles you instigated in Iraq, and its consequences in London.

Your habit of using guest status and various nom de plumes makes your posting hard to follow.

If I have accused you wrongly ,I offer my apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 02:25 PM

Wolgang - I can understand your point of view but do not agree with this statement:

"Each government should know that harbouring terrorists can be the end of the government and can force them personally to a life on the run."

How do you know if the government is harbouring terrorists or if terrorists have infiltrated the country?

Seems to me that both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have the largest number of terrorist training camps and yet they are supposedly allies. Who decides if a government is 'harbouring' terrorists? Bin Laden invested in Sudan, don't you think that he has influence in that country as well?

Who will 'end the governments' of those countries? The fact is that we cannot defeat terrorism with conventional warfare.

El Greko you said, "To try and second-guess the specific reasons driving these specific terrorists is futile, no matter what slogans they shout."

I think its pretty clear that they want the U.S. and its allies to leave the Middle East and keep their hands off the resources. They want their own government not something imported from the West. Basically, I think they want control of their own economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:06 PM

Dianavan,
I would agree with you that the terrorists seem to want the things you mention - but I am a long way from certain that this is all they want. This could well be just the tip of an iceberg of suppressed anger, frustration and who knows what else. I don't find their actions rational (not by my definition of "rational", admittedly) and so I cannot even assume the rationality of what drives them. They seem to be striking blindly at innocents - that leads me to believe that blind hate plays a role. There may have been rational reasons there, once; but the operative word here is "blind". How to show such people the light - even assuming I have it to show in the first place?

Ake,
I never doubted your sincerity, mate. And if we differ in our opinions here and there - vive la difference!

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:59 PM

In some ways people engaged in terrorist campaigns are very like governments (leaving aside the point that quite often governments are themselves engaged in what are by any reasonable standards "terrorist campaigns").   

Governments enter into a war with one set of war aims. But typically if that war lasts for any length of time, war aims change, sometimes drastically. Forget the stuff about WMDs, it's regime change that we set out to achieve; be realistic about that human rights stuff, it's stability that matters.

"Rationality" can mean two things - it can mean setting out to achieve ends which are "rational". Agreeing on what counts as rational is a minefield, but I doubt if I would see the overall goals of "Al Qaeda" as that kind of rational. (Though I wouldn't see the goals of a lot of the people in the other corner as too rational either.)

But it can also mean acting in a way that is designed to achieve the goals you have set yourself, however irrational those goals may be. And here I don't agree with writing off "Al Qaeda", because it seems to me they have rarely put a foot wrong in that way. And it doesn't seem to me that massacring innocent people implies any particular hate for them, just a ruthless decision that they are expendable, and that their death is useful in some way.

I don't think that the destruction of Hiroshima, 60 years ago this week, was the outcome of particular hate towards the people who lived there, or was irrational in that latter sense. I doubt very much if the train bombers actually felt much in the way of hate towards their fellow passengers. Insofar as the aim is to widen and deepen the rift between Muslims and the rest of society, by making Muslims a focus of hate and distrust, this bombing campaign could well acheve that, and therefore in that liited sense is perfectly rational.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:40 AM

Communities United Against Terror

Terrorist attacks against Londoners on July 7th killed at least 54 people. The suicide bombers who struck in Netanya, Israel, on July 12 ended five lives, including two 16 year old girls. And on July 13, in Iraq, suicide bombers slaughtered 24 children. We stand in solidarity with all these strangers, hand holding hand, from London to Netanya to Baghdad: communities united against terror.

These attacks were the latest atrocities committed by terrorist groups inspired by a poisonous and perverted politics that disguises itself as a form of the religion of Islam. The terrorists seek a closed society of fear and conformity. They are opposed by Muslims the world over. Muslim community leaders have condemned the London attacks unequivocally. We reject the terrorists' claim that they represent authentic Islam. They do not.

We remember the attacks in New York and Washington on September 11, 2001 and in Madrid on March 11, 2004. But we know that al Qaeda and groups that are inspired by Bin-Ladenism have carried out atrocities in France, Pakistan, Israel, Kenya, Tanzania, India, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Tunisia, Indonesia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, North Osetia and many other countries.

The vast majority of the victims of al Qaeda's violence have been Muslims. Those who have suffered at the hands of violent Islamic Fundamentalist movements in Iran and Algeria have also been ordinary Muslims.

This terrorist violence is not a response by 'Muslims' to the injustices perpetrated upon them by 'the west'. Western democracies have been responsible for some of the ills of this world but not for the terrorist murders of these deluded Bin-Ladenists.

These attacks did not begin in 2003. The first attempt to blow up the World Trade Center took place ten years before, in 1993.

These terrorists do not hate what is worst in the societies they attack, but what is best. They despise individual liberty, critical thought, gender equality, religious tolerance, the rights of minorities and political pluralism. They do not criticize democracy because it sometimes fails to live up to its principles; they oppose those principles.

In areas of conflict, the terrorists have damaged attempts at peaceful and political solutions to problems. They choose killing and reject mutual recognition, accommodation, negotiation, understanding, and compromise.

In the face of such an enemy, we believe it is vital that democratic political forces in all countries unite. We need a global movement of solidarity linking together communities threatened by terror. United we stand against terror.

We can find our inspiration in the behavior of ordinary people in the immediate aftermath of terrorist atrocities. Always the story is the same. A fractured world is mended by the kindness of strangers. We see, amidst the pain and anguish, in the rubble of the Twin Towers, the wreckage of a London bus, the bloodied glass across a Tel Aviv street, and among the Mothers searching for their children in Baghdad, that a common humanity asserts itself. Extraordinary acts of courage and selflessness become commonplace. The impulse of solidarity overwhelms fear and help comes from strangers.

With every healing gesture between strangers we feel a candle of hope has been lit in a dark world. On 7/7 a London tube worker rushed towards the blast, running down a smoke-filled tunnel, torch in hand, to lead out the survivors.

These ordinary yet heroic rescuers teach us the ethic of responsibility. It is time to assert our common humanity against all who would divide us. It is time to forge communities united against terror, respectful of the dignity of difference, and organised to extend active solidarity to each other across the globe.

We are frequently urged to understand the terrorists, but too often the call to understand is code for justification and apology. There are always other, better, more effective, and more human ways of opposing injustice than by killing yourself and others in a symbolic act of hatred. Muslims who have pursued modern democratic politics have often been the first in the firing line of the terrorists. The road to a just solution in Israel-Palestine is signposted by 'mutual recognition' and 'political dialogue' not the blind alley of terrorism.

We stand firmly against the racists who seek to exploit the current tensions for their own agenda.

We stand firmly against those who apologize for the terrorists and who misrepresent terrorist atrocities as 'resistance'.

We offer our support and solidarity to all those within the Muslim faith who work in opposition to the terrorists and who seek to win young people away from extremism and nihilism, towards an engagement with democratic politics.

We believe that democracy and human rights are worth defending with all our strength. The human values of respect and tolerance and dignity are not 'western' but universal.

We are not afraid. But we are not vengeful. We believe the kindness of strangers has lit the way and this light will drive away the darkness. We want to join light to light to show that evil, injustice and oppression will not have the final word. Through these acts of human solidarity we will mend the world the terrorists have fractured.

We invite you to sign this statement

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:52 AM

Peter Tatchell (Human Rights campaigner, London)

We are witnessing one of the greatest betrayals by the left since so-called left-wingers backed the Hitler-Stalin pact and opposed the war against Nazi fascism. Today, the pseudo-left reveals its shameless hypocrisy and its wholesale abandonment of humanitarian values. While it deplores the 7/7 terrorist attack on London, only last year it welcomed to the UK the Muslim cleric, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who endorses the suicide bombing of innocent civilians. These same right-wing leftists back the so-called 'resistance' in Iraq. This 'resistance' uses terrorism against civilians as its modus operandi - stooping to the massacre of dozens of Iraqi children in order kill a few US soldiers. Terrorism is not socialism; it is the tactic of fascism. But much of the left doesn't care. Never mind what the Iraqi people want, it wants the US and UK out of Iraq at any price, including the abandonment of Iraqi socialists, trade unionists, democrats and feminists. If the fake left gets its way, the ex-Baathists and Islamic fundamentalists could easily seize power, leading to Iranian-style clerical fascism and a bloodbath. I used to be proud to call myself a leftist. Now I feel shame. Much of the left no longer stands for the values of universal human rights and international socialism.

My emphasis. Shakey

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:46 AM

Ake,

it's always a pleasure to disagree with you. You're not in any way close to being an apologist for terrorism, the disagreemant is in (some of) the methods how to stand up against it.

Dianavan,

it is not easy to tell (harbouring vs. infiltration), but in Afghanistan the succession of statements from Mullah Omar (Bin Who? He's not here; he's here but the status of a guest is sacrosanct to a Muslim; we'll hand him over if you give us definite proof) made the conclusion easy. In the other examples I cannot see that the respective governments actually support the terrorists that are (physically or with interests) in their countries. But each case has to be decided on its own.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM

We've just had a very worrying bit of news about this case. Just about all the details we thought we knew were wrong. No bulky jacket, no bag, no jumping the ticket barrier. He was mis-identified as he left the flat, and ran for a train.

The police protocol for suicide bomb suspects is to shoot if they run.
I'm a young man who's run for trains whilst carrying odd shaped bags.

Looks like there was a major failure of the sysytem, and he was the wrong person in the wrong place at wrong time.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 03:59 AM

The terrorist who wasn't (from the GUARDIAN)

Looks like a good follow-up summary to me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:13 AM

Very easy to be wise after the event. If he hadn't run, he wouldn't have been shot. If he hadn't been an illegal immigrant, he wouldn't have run.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Mr Fox
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 01:09 PM

"Very easy to be wise after the event. If he hadn't run, he wouldn't have been shot. If he hadn't been an illegal immigrant, he wouldn't have run."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the last damned time: - HE DIDN'T RUN AND HE WAS NOT AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. Neither was he wearing an unseasonably bulky jacket nor did he jump a barrier.

He walked down to the platform in his normal way, picking up a free newspaper on the way. He boarded the train and sat down. - whereupon he was dragged out of his seat, overpowered and, WHILE ABOUT THREE POLICEMEN WERE SITTING ON HIM, shot several times at point blank range.

One question. What happens when the terorists start using triggers that set the bomb off when they let go of them? fat lot of good shooting them will be then.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:15 PM

Where have you been hiding, flamenco ted? Unless you have deliberately avoided reading any of the reparts in the papers about the killing, after the first 48 hours or so, or taking in any subsequent news bulletins touching on it - and there were one hell of a lot of both - you'd have known that that stuff you wrote there was absolute nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Here we go again in London
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 05:40 AM

I can never understand why anyone ever answers the posts Ted submitts. His three line posts regarding such stories are always the same.

Well Living in Spain for the next month, so warm and beautiful. Not missing the weather back home. The addict in me found this internet cafe and had to see what you are all at.

Regards
Seamus