BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:33 PM

Early today I watched various eye witness accounts describing the young man who had the audacity to wear a slightly padded style jacket and run from a group of men that had been following him for 30 minutes - and then jump the subway turnstyle to hasten his escape. For this he was puched to the floor of the train carriage and shot 5 times in cold blood.
One witness said the man being chased looked like a scared fox or rabbit being hunted.

Not once did I hear the words trigger happy or mistake.
Instead Sir Ian (chief of London Police)* eloquently repeats that the dead man was directly linked to the terrorist investigation and the unfortunate shooting only limited the information we could have obtained regarding other terrorists.

He also repeated the now common excuse "We had no choice...he was challenged by police and did not comply with orders!".

Others have speculated that the likelyhood of explosives under his coat nessesitated killing the terrorist immediately. Tell me, if YOU suspected explosives under his coat WOULD YOU SHOOT HIM FIVE TIMES IN THE COAT?

They say they followed this kid from a neighborhood/house under suspicion.

I have not heard who this shooting victim was. No name, no family information, nothing. Only that he is directly linked to the terrorist investigation.

Most likely this was a fear shooting. But between me and mudcat it also has the look of an execution of a loose cannon.


* I wish our DC chief of police was half as glib as Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:52 PM

I bet we all have only 6 degrees of seperation away from a direct link to terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:08 AM

Its pretty hard to get information from a dead man.

Didn't sound to me like anyone was being threatened.

If they thought he had a bomb, they certainly would not have shot him five times. Why five times? What was his crime? Refusing to halt? What suspicions did they have? Running from the scene of a crime? What crime?

So he was hanging out at a house under surveillance? Is that a crime?

If a cop says halt and I run - do they have the right to shoot me five times? Maybe they could have aimed for his knees. Makes more sense than shooting him five times and blowing their investigation. Maybe they should have just followed him. Maybe they could have obtained more information; depending on his destination.

Sounds like overzealous cops, overreacting and trying to make a name for themselves. I am sickened by such foolish actions. Yeah, real heroes! How old was this guy?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:59 AM

Saves all that expense of a trial and a good rope for a hanging...

Hmmm, where have I heard that before?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:06 AM

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest why dont we wait until the police actually release further information.

If the police are in the wrong then there will be a very public debate and questioning over the shooting, the brown stuff will certainly hit the rotating device and the police officers will face charges of unlawfull killing.

If the man was carrying explosives then they could well have saved lives.

Just listening to the evening news on the BBC and the other man arrested at Stockwell has been arrested and taken to Paddington Green police station. He is being held under the PTA. He is thought to be one of the four people who made the bombing attempt on the 21st.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:08 AM

Well, I have now read a report that says the victim was one of the bombing suspects. It still seems odd that they would shoot him five times while he was on the ground.

Like anything today, it will take alot of time before the truth comes out, if at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:14 AM

If the man was carrying explosives then they could well have saved lives.

Then firing bullets at him from close range was not exactly a bright move!!

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:50 AM

I do not know what part of the body this man was shot but a high ranking police officer stated on TV yesterday that it was now policy to shoot suspected terrorists in the head, in case they were carrying explosives.

This one seems a bit over the top, but I wasn't there.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:43 AM

If your child was sitting in the train, you might have been glad he was not given the chance to detonate.
Our Police are usually very reluctant to shoot, and an enquiry always follows.
These are not normal circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:57 AM

I'm impressed with the way this thread started with a story ahead of the facts and no hesitation in drawing judgements therein.

However, Hakman has a penchant for initiating threads based on rumor, superstition, bad science, and his latest 'lustration.

When one suspects that a person who wears a heavy jacket on a warm day may have explosives ready to detonate, the goal is to keep the person from initiating detonation. Without ready information as to how the detonation is managed, it seems logical that one would aim for the head. In the event of a body shot, a bullet passing through some explosives will not necessarily set them off, the key is to keep the detonator from being activated.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:14 AM

Ask the relatives and friends of the fifty-odd people killed on the tube and on a bus a couple of weeks ago. And those people on the trains only the previous day, when four bombs failed to ignite fully.

Some of you truly have shit for brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:16 AM

5 TIMES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??????????????
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:44 AM

If this is the one i read about last night, wires were seen coming out of his t shirt and all passengers on the train had raced out of the carriage after seeing him.

Apparently the protocol for a suspected terrorist (as in someone who'se about to kill a lot of people) is to shoot for the head, as to shoot in the body may detonate whatever explosives are strapped to the body.

I agree with Frank, it will be important to wait until all the information comes out.

A good thread as always, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:26 AM

The police apparently use low velocity bullets so as to reduce the chance of collateral damage, and work on the principle that a single shot would be insufficient. Bear in mind that a suicide bomber can detonate his device instantly so causing his death is unavoidable, and has to be a little bit more instant. Shots to the head disable the nervous system so that even an involuntary action by the terrorist is not possible, whereas shots to the body would not do this. Apparently they have taken advice from the Israeli authorities on these points.

Whether the guy had explosives or not was not up for discussion. The police definitely will be called upon to justify their actions and we may well find this is part of a "standard procedure".

A question to the people who would prefer the guy to have been killed with less shots - why? what difference does it make?

I saw this explanation on the telly so it must be true.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:43 AM

My heart goes out to the policeperson(s) who had to make the decision to use deadly force.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:37 AM

I am not a bomb technician, but the beeb last night reported that the bombs that are/have been used are the type that are detonated by inserting an ordinary little battery into a connection. The bombs have been in rucksacks and wires from the rucksacks trail down the bombers arm and he inserts the battery into the end. The photos of the failed devices a couple of days ago show the remnants of the bomb, wrapped in shredded jiffy bags with a battery next to it.

I agree with strolling johnny. I use the tubes in London regularly and am glad that a man who run away from police, jumped a turnstile and threw himself onto a train , was stopped. Our police dont routinely swagger around town with a gun as part of their uniform, these were anti terrorist guys who had been trailing the suspect.

I am the first one to question our police forces motives on many occasions. But I think this time they acted in the public's interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:04 AM

With all those policemen near the underground stations anyone who feels threatened by civilians could have asked a uniformed person for help. Running away and into a train must alert the police.
Before coming to a final opinion we need more information...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:29 AM

Damndest case of suicide I ever saw.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:08 AM

Well, as far as those who truely believe there will be an honest inquest, if in fact this is a "shoot to kill" event, as we saw for so many years in the north of Ireland, well, don't ask me about it, ask former Police Commissioner John Stalker, who was framed ( badly it fell apart as he was an exceptionally honest man ) when he did his job properly and showed that suspects were being murdered as a policy in Ireland, often innocent people mistaken for others.
As for the fifty some innocents, yes they were, and the bombings were crimes, but if you ask me, shooting suspects on the ground wont make London or New York safer, not continuing to kill over a hundred thousand equally innocent civilians in Iraq will in deed. Have we forgotten the phrase that led our nations to war? Premeptive war. Mr. Bush and Mr Blair lied to our faces telling us this was a war to keep us from being attacked. We invaded a nation with whom we were not at war, and the result was a loss of rights in our own nations and an increase of the danger of terrorism.
Frankly, the time to have changed history in reguards to Iraq was likely when the US gave him the poison gas he used on the Kurds, in hopes he'd use it on the Iranians, whose destablization happened when the US and Britain conspired to overthrow the democratic government of that nation in the 50s at the behest of British Petrolum... oh people people people, these things don't happen in a vacuume. We are not hated for our culture we are hated for our continuing violent acts in North Africa and through out the third world. Terrorism is always a crime, and those who killed folks in London are criminals, but our leaders are also terrorist killers and it is up to us to reclaim our civil liberties and vote the criminals out of our parliment and congress and out of the executive branchs of our governments.
Wake up dear friends... stop day dreaming away your rights.
lor

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ernest
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 11:08 AM

Guest at 06:04 was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM

Well inOBU, you carry on telling everyone you're right and meanwhile we'll just keep voting TB back into power.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:09 PM

The Met Police regret that the dead man was not connected to the enquiry.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:12 PM

Oh dear.

That's unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 12:18 PM

Anyone who runs from armed police after the events of the last month has to be suicidal or very very stupid.

I heard on the radio that the man ran into a tube station, lept the barrier and got onto a train after being challenged by plain clothed police who were following him from a house under surveilence. Even then they tackled him and held him down - I can only assume that they perceived him as a real threat and thought he might detonate hidden explosives at any second by means they could not prevent just by holding him.

It is conjectured on the TV news that the weapon used was a low velocity hand gun. Five shots would be perhaps one more than absolutely necessary - but when standing over a man you believe is willing to detonate explosives - and who might have the battery in his hand trying to make the connection, only one course of action is possible. Hesitation is not an option.

The people who are carrying the bombs in London are not criminals - they are deluded young men who are as much victims as those they kill maim injure or terrorise.

Behind them are people who wish to rule by fear. Innocent people are bound to die because they are the playing pieces in the war.

If the occupying troups were to withdraw from Iraq I suspect the casualties to date would be nothing to the deaths of those perceived to be tainted by trying to assist in the reconstruction of the country.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:10 PM

I think you should all read what has been said on this thread very thoroughly. It explains alot about our willingness to blame the victim. Many of you have thought about the feelings of the passengers and the police but nobody has mentioned what may have been going through the victim's mind.

Apparently, the police were in plainclothes. This guy might have ran because a group of men were chasing him. Maybe he thought he was going to be a victim of a beating? Would you stop to talk to a group of people who were after you or would you run?

I guess we'll have to wait for my details (if they even bother to give us anymore information) but here's the latest:

"Scotland Yard put out a statement saying, 'We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police, although he is still subject to formal identification.

'We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.'

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:23 PM

If he was a terrorist I am glad the sonuvabitch is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM

"...wires were seen coming out of his t shirt"

I imagine the poor bastard had an iPod or something like that. Still he did come out of a block of flats had under surveillance. And he was foolish enough to have a brown skin...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:33 PM

So, have the police killed an innocent man or not? Anyone know?

(PS The remark in which I said "If he was a terrorist I am glad the sonuvabitch is dead" is one I hold to. I do not agree that innocent people should be shot. Getting this in before I get crap for the wrong thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: gnu
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:34 PM

Not me peace... would have been much better to have the SAS have a delightful chat with the lad over tea and cakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

Sounds like he was innocent of any involvement in the bombings according to police, and they must be sure to issue that statment so quickly.

dianavan Stockwell is a highly diverse area of London. The tube is on a major road junction. He could have run into the middle of the road or any of the hundreds of shops all open, as it was mid morning. To run away and vault a barrier and run onto a train was gross stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

The number of shots rather makes it seem hotblooded.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't pretty much sums it up. I can't assign blame without knowing the whole story, but sometimes it's just as much a fault of the victim as the others. Tragedies do happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:48 PM

So, basically shoot who you want, and cite National Security as a reason.

There's no such thing as an innocent victim, in that case

Subject: RE: BS: of the directly linked ist
From: SharonA
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:53 PM

"Apparently, the police were in plainclothes. This guy might have ran because a group of men were chasing him. Maybe he thought he was going to be a victim of a beating? Would you stop to talk to a group of people who were after you or would you run?"

If I were          and thought I was going to be beaten up, I wouldn't jump a turnstile and run onto a train; I'd run to a guard at the station for help and protection. These plainclothes policemen had been following this guy for half an hour -- plenty of time for him to find someone to ask for help if he'd been doing nothing wrong.

He may not have been directly connected to Thursday's attempted    ings, but was he a copycat    er? Did he in fact have wires sticking out of his coat? Seems clear that he must've been doing something besides wearing a heavy jacket in the summer swelter, something that aroused suspicion of criminal activity. Carrying       away from a      house, perhaps? Whatever the case, the fact remains that he wore garb that made him look like he was carrying a    , in the wake of local    ings; and he ran from police and ran onto a train in the wake of attacks on local trains. I can't blame the police for reacting swiftly and decisively to stop what had all the earmarks of an impending disaster. Even if the guy truly had no reason to run from the police aside from panic, he was still an idiot for dressing like a    er and acting like a criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 01:57 PM

I notice how the Met “regretsâ€쳌 this incident, and doesn't condemn the cold blooded slaying of an innocent individual. Doesn't that make them apologists for terrorism?

This killing was sanctioned at the highest level, and whoever sanctioned it should be brought to account in a criminal court of law.

The only crime the poor sod committed, was probably bunking the tube.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

Well, they have officially said that the man was not a part of their investigation. So he was at least innocent of being one of the terrorists. What I am wondering is whether or not he knew the house he was in had been under surveillance, and whether or not he knew that the men who were chasing him were police.

Man shot dead by UK police not connected to bombs

"LONDON (Reuters) - Police acknowledged on Saturday the man they shot dead on Friday was not connected to bomb attacks on the British capital the previous day, calling the shooting tragic and regrettable.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005," police said in a statement.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police said.

Police hunting four men who tried to bomb London's transport system on Thursday -- two weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 commuters -- shot dead the man who had been under surveillance and refused orders to halt.

The killing at point-blank range with five shots to the head in front of shocked passengers on a packed underground train triggered speculation that traditionally unarmed British police had radically changed their iron-fist-in-velvet-glove approach.

"The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on Thursday 21st July.

"He was then followed by surveillance officers to the underground station. His clothing and behavior added to their suspicions," the statement said.

It added that the circumstances that led to the man's death were being investigated."


I am somewhat impressed that the police have at least admitted that they made a mistake. They could just as easily have tried to make it look like the guy was guilty to cover their asses. I can think of one or two governments who might do such a thing under similar circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

The police have said the 'block of flats' was under surveillance, which is different to saying 'the flat'. Alot of the blocks of flats can only be watched from outside and the individual doors are unseen from the road.

I wonder if they actually saw him emerge from the flat they were interested in? It doesn't sound like it to me. But I don't condemn the police who opened fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:10 PM

Different people do different things, Sharon.

5 White people chasing an 'Asian'?
'Undercover Cop' might not have been the first thing that went through his mind.

The British Police have done this kind of thing before.

If he was innocent, we'll hear no more about it after a while.

And life and the war against already terrorized people...


... goes on

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM

The police did not act swiftly - only when the man had tried to escape (presumably when he was approaching a tube station enterance) and made a determined effort to reach a tube train was he shot.

I saw a couple of interviews with people on the train - they were terrified, they really did think that they were in danger from a bomber, but they said 'the police' - there seemed to be no doubt, when they were telling the reporter what had happened, that the chasing men were police when they entered the train. Our police are suposed to identify themselves, and it seems from what was said that it is likely they did so.   

I have to 'blame the victim'in this case. He behaved exactly as though his intention was to reach a train and detonate explosives. I don't see how the police can be blamed for his death by anyone who considers how the man behaved in the half hour before he was shot.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

That has to be the most callous post I have ever read on this board

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:21 PM

I totally agree with the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM

You're living in a dream world if you believe these cops made a mistake, acted in anger or pure stupidity. You might not like or agree with their policy, but these are professional, very very well trained and highly skilled cops ... they di not take an action that was not sanctioned, discussed, policied and trained for ... it was cold and deliberate ... I suspect it was also the right thnig to do ... and maybe someday we'll hear more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM

Kill first, find out if they're innocent later.

Maybe....

Admit it. That's the policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:28 PM

From the first post... "Instead Sir Ian (chief of London Police)* eloquently repeats that the dead man was directly linked to the terrorist investigation..."

Well, either he was, or he wasn't

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

All he had to do was halt when told to halt. He didn't.

People had best start obeying police orders.

Unless you have a strong death wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

Get used to a Police State?

Yes I know

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:41 PM

It is now officially known the shooting victim was not linked to the bombings.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police statement said Saturday."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:49 PM

It's also possible that he was afraid that even if he was not guilty of doing anything wrong, he might be imprisoned anyway and tortured. That has certainly happened to more than a few people in the last few years as a result of the actions of the governments of the US and Britain. If I was afraid of something like that, I might choose to run and risk getting killed rather than to stick around and be tortured and imprisoned for some unspecified and indefinite period of time without access to an attorney or to any kind of due process.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:51 PM

In the current atmosphere, describing this death as murder is wrong. If someone is held hostage at gunpoint, is shooting the person holding the gun murder? You don't know if their gun is loaded, do you?

If the police, under advice from the Israeli authorities, who have far too much experince with suicide bombers, shoot for the head, why should we argue? They set out with the intention of killing and maiming as many innocent people as possible, and dying in the process. If they do no surrender to police when challenged, the only right they should have is to a quick death.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM

Any of us could be the poor bugger they murdered.

If I come back from holiday with a rucksack and a suntan, it could be me on the tube with a few bullets in the head, due to a misunderstanding.

It was an extrajudicial killing, and with the worlds media looking on, I hope it gets the stink it deserves, with the relevant guilty parties brought to account

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:00 PM

This is by far the ugliest thread I have ever read on Mudcat.

Bunnahabhain - You are assuming that the victim had something to do with the bombings when you refer to 'they'. Who are they? Do you mean all non-white people or just Muslims in particular? We don't even know if the victim was Muslim or what his nationality might have been. For that matter, we don't even know if he spoke English.

For all we know, the guy panicked when a group of men started running after him and shouting at him.

There is far more to this story and before passing judgement we should wait and see what else is reported. Whatever occurred, it was an extremely unfortunate incident and it appears that we are heading for a police state.