BS: US personal names

Subject: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:32 AM

Living on the other side of the Atlantic there seems to be a growing fashion for, to my Western European up-bringing, children to be given what appear to be made-up names; or highly unconventional spellings; or for names to lose their gender (apparently Michael is non gender-specific name).

Is this a fashion that has been around for years and years and just becoming more popular? Or is it more recent than that? Why is it happen? Is it that the parents can give their children a unique name that no-one else has got? Are these, if fact, real names with real cultural backgrounds?

What are your favourites?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:45 AM

Nothing unusual, it is cyclical. Many names being used now are those from 50 - 70 years ago. We can't name every new person Jack or Jill.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:58 AM

Myshele! apparently american female name. Not too bad on its own (except when you know a japanese girl with a name pronounced My-she-le), but what's wrong with the conventional Michelle?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:24 AM

I know the fashion in names goes in cycles but I would have thought that this would have brought back names like Alfred, Edith, Albert etc: names with which I am familiar from family history and books and films of the period. The names now cropping up in the US are totally unfamiliar to me of theirself or in their spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:52 AM

African-Americans often concoct names that are new and different, and immediately and deliberately identifiable as non-white.
Shaquille O'Neal, a professional basketball player, for one. Go through the names of African-American female singers and find more.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:09 AM

Keister, Linda, "The Complete Guide to African-American Baby Names," a 400 page paperback, is one of the more comprehensive books on these names. Some are Afrocentric, but many are rootless.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:09 AM

I've been interested in personal name origins and meanings for some time. Since the late 1960s there has been an increase among African Americans in the number of "different" personal names and "regular" names that are spelled differently. I believe that non-African Americans also have given non-traditional names to their children, but it seems that it is not to the same degree as African Americans. I believe that there are shared reasons and different reasons among Americans for this practice of giving children "different" names.

IMO, foremost among the shared reasons is creativity. Adapting already existing names and 'making up' names is a form of creativity that is accessible to everyone.

Many Americans regardless of race and ethnicity want names that are unique but not too unique. In cultures where the syllables of a name mean specific things, changing the name's spelling would completely change the name's meaning. But in cultures like the United States where the sound of a name is of utmost important, people can play with a name's spellings, including capitolization and/or add prefixes, suffixes, accent marks, and/or hypens to a name to enhance the name's uniqueness.

Let me give you an example from African American culture: the male [and increasingly female] name "Shawn" which is an Irish form of the Hebrew name "John". This name has been spelled many different ways and has had prefixes and/or suffixes added to enhance its sound and look. For example "Shon" "Shaun", "DeShawn", "Deshon" ,
Te-haun, "Shondre", "LeShon" and "LaShondra" to name just a few contemporary personal names. These names would usually be considered "African American" names. "Shon & "Shaun" could be male or female. "DeShawn" & "Deshon" [DAY shaun] are male names that are quite popular among African Americans since 1980s [nickname "Day Day"]; "Te-Shaun" {Tay-shon} probably owes its inspiration to "Deshawn". "Shondre" is probably a male name {Dre is a popular [usually African American nickname for Andre which has a also host of different spellings]; "LeShon" and "LaShondra" are probably female names. As you can see there are gender preferences for contemporary names, for instance-"De"=male; "La"=female. I'm unsure if these gender preferences are shared by non-African Americans.

I've also found that African Americans have sound preferences. For females and males the "sha" "cha" prefix is very very popular ["Shawn", "Chante [pronounced "SHANtay"]"Shanika"}". And for females the "a" ending ["ah"] sound is very popular.

One major difference between African American and non-African American personal names is the use of Arabic and traditional African names. In late 1960s, as a result of the rise in Black pride [due in large part to African nations becoming independent of European countries], a significant number of African Americans changed their names to Arabic and [to a much lesser degree] traditional African personal names. A lot of times African Americans who have Arabic names will say that these names are African [and since Islam was in West Africa since the 11 century AD, in a sense those names are African. However, in my opinion, African Americans gravitated to Arabic names because those names were and still are] more widely known than traditional African names. Also Arabic names more closely conform to African American sound preferences than some traditional African names [particularly those with more than three syllables and those which have unfamiliar consonate clusters such as "dj".

And since African Americans aren't prohibited by religion and custom and the meanings of the name prefix, suffix etc, we also readily change the spellings of some of these names. Take for example the Arabic male name "Jabar" ["Jabbar"] which means "the compeller". The KiSwahili [East/parts of Central Africa] form of this name is "Jabari" {in the USA if not in Africa it is pronounced jah-BAR-ee] and said to mean "brave". For a contemporary form of that name see the name "Jabbor". This was the first name of the 18 year old African American who took the initiative to take an abandoned New Orlean's school bus, fill it with 100 or so strangers and drive them out of that city's devastation to safety in Houston. I believe his last name was Gibson.

I could go on and on. But I won't :O)

A couple of years ago I started this website AlafiaNames on names used by African Americans. The website includes a database of names from Hebrew, English, Arabic, Irish, French etc sources. However, I regret to say that I've turned my attention to other projects and haven't added names to that database for some time.

"Alafia" is a Yoruba {Nigeria,West Africa} greeting word and the name of my non-profit organization.

AlafiaNames also has some name quizzes and information on the surnames.

Enjoy!


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:21 AM

Q,

Shaquille is an African American variant of

SHAKEEL   m   Arabic
Variant of SHAKIL

SHAKIL   m   Arabic
Means "handsome" in Arabic.

****

I don't think I have that name in my AlafiaName data base, and would need to consult with my webmaster to add it.

There's alot of names I need to add, which would take time from other projects.

Choices, choices....

Thanks alot Dazbo for making me feel guitly that I have neglected this project. ;O}

And by the way, what does your name mean?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

Azizi,

Thanks for all this info, very interesting. Do you think that one of the reasons for this occuring in African-American society is due to poverty, racism etc. so that one area where they can make their own decision is in naming their child? Or is it more in a sense of fun (the joy of life rather than humour)?

Dazbo is made up of contractions of my first and last names. In the UK 'az' is a common shortening of a name: Gary=Gaz; Sharon=Shaz (or Shazza); Barry=Baz; Darren=Daz (is this contraction common in the US?). The Bo is just the first two letters of my last name.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

In 1974 I met a brother and sister whose parents were Spanish immigrants to the States. I can't remember their given names, partly because they were so unusual.

When I asked if they were Spanish names, or what, they laughed and said, no, their parents had completely made them up.

That was the first time I'd ever heard of that idea. The people were in their mid to late '20s at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM

Among African Americans [and otehr Americans??} personal names also are used to reflect parental relationships. Since at least the 18th century some African American females have been given a name similar to their father's personal name. The usual formula is to add a suffix to the name [for example "Johnetta" and "Davina"].

Another common practice [mostly for female names]is to take a portion of the father's name and a portion of the mother's name to make a new name. The resulting name is both unique and meaningful.
For example a female name "Joleya" might have a father named "Joseph" and a mother named "Leah".

My feeling is that if people use their creativity to create names, they can also use their creativity to give meanings to these names, since positive meanings can help enhance a person's self-esteem.
Or they can use the root meanings of those 'made-up' names.

And since I'm not a fundamentalist about anything, I would suggest that people 'play' with the name meanings. In the case of the name "Joleya" for example, I would suggest that the meaning is a combination of the meanings for "Joseph" and "Lee+ yah" [and not "Leah"]

"Joseph" is a Hebrew male name meaning "God will increase" or "God will favor or add good things to {this child}".

I'd use "Lee + yah" and not "Leah" since my purpose is to use the personal name to enhance self-esteem. "Leah" is a Hebrew female meaning "weary". I would opt for the Irish Gaelic name "Lee" that has a more positive meaning- "poetic child"]. I would then suggest that "yah" is just a sound enhancer without any meaning.

Thus my "creative" name meaning for "Joleya" is 'the poetic child who is favored by God'.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Grab
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM

Dazbo, have you not heard of Princess Michael of Kent? Although that has come from marriage to Prince Michael of Kent, so it's really more like a title, although it's a bit odd all the same. And there's a perfectly good female version anyway - "Michaela".

Names do shift genders, for reasons I don't understand. For one, "Hilary" (or "Hillary") was a man's name until this century (you can still find some older men around called "Hilary"), whereas now it's exclusively female. The change happened on the British side of the pond, so I don't know what went on there.

What I find strange in the US is the "John Smith the Third" thing, like they're founding a dynasty. To European eyes, where "the Third" or whatever is tradition-based and signifies royalty/aristocracy, this looks both quaint (like they've not understood the rules) and profoundly arrogant. It's therefore often the basis for jokes about Americans. In a similar vein are the American tradition of having a title as a first name ("Earl/Duke/Lord/Prince"), the white American tradition of using surnames as forenames ("Forrest/Preston/Wilson") in a reversal of the old tradition of surnames originating from forenames, and the older Puritan-based practise of using Biblical names which aren't generally used elsewhere ("Hiram/Ezekial").

Basically, I guess other English-speaking countries shouldn't assume they have any cultural intersection with Americans, even if they happen to speak the same language! ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

Dazbo,

I appreciate you sharing that information about
Daz" I didn't know that.

Sharing cultural information through the Internet is great!

As to why African Americans make up names, I believe this is part and parcel of our love of creating, and improvisation {taking a song and changing it up; adding our own "flavor" to make it more uniquely ours.

Some people might point to the practice of slave masters or slave mistresses naming their slaves. However, from what I've read, that was not always done-meaning that in many instances enslaved African Americans could either name their offspring without any interferance from their "owners", or they could reject the name given, or they could and often did use another name for the child in the privacy of their own home. But the practice of selecting names for African American children different from the standard and then popular European names has much more to do with remembrances of African naming practice + creativity.

IMO, African American naming practices have nothing at all to do with humor or joy of life -well maybe joy of life, but not humor. Some people might think these names or their spellings are funny but we don't.

As to racism- well that's more complicated. In the late 1960s African Americans {and later other Black people in the Caribbean and elsewhere ??} started replacing our 'slave' first name [birth name that was probaby of European language or Hebrew language] for a 'free name" that was usually Arabic or KiSwahili and less often from other traditional African languages such as Akan {Ghana, West Africa}names like "Kwame" and "Kofi" for example}.

IMO, this was more an affirmation of Black heritage,than an expression of racism.

That's how I got my name "Azizi". I've used it for more thatn 30 years now and hardly anyone [but my birth family] calls me .......

;O)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:41 AM

I think the making up of names is an American cultural thing. There's (prepare for sweeping generalization) less emphasis on tradition and more on creativity. Personally, I think it's all good.

I've known palefaces with created names. Sometimes they grew up in a predominantly African American community and the culture, if perhaps not the history, was every bit theirs. So you wind up with (fictional names) a Shalaylah Schoenberg. Or little white children were born during the 70's to artistical parents and were named Sunshower Periwinkle Anderson or Dweezil (oops - not fictional).

I think some of this creation of names may have been inspired by American Indian/Native American naming conventions, or at least what some people believed those conventions to be.

Not in my case though - my parents just came up with my name. It's not short for anything or spelled funny. My parents were white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant, working class, and they invented my name...in the 50s!

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM

"John Smith III", etc. is not regarded with favor by many Americans. Not sure where this started; probably the practice of naming the first son after the father who was named after the grandfather, etc. When all three are living, it is a good shorthand way of referring to them.
Names like Earl "noble), of course, have no taint of royalty in America. Duke and Prince are popular names for dogs, but for people are mostly nicknames.

'Last names' used as first names are also common in Canada and Australia. Many of the old biblical names have disappeared and would be regarded as funny by the youth of today.

Finally, it should be noted that, in spite of the (mostly) common language, people of English (or even UK) ancestry are a minority in the United States. One should not expect names to follow UK practice.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

See this excerpt from my other website www.cocojams.com

African American Names-Sound Preferences :


"Sound Preferences For African American Female Names

It's traditional for Black folks in the United States to use prefixes {beginning sound} and suffixes {ending sound} to create an infinite number of "unique" personal names for females. But I wonder if anyone else has noticed that we {African Americans} seem to like some sounds more than others. IMHO, if there was a contest for the best loved prefix for Black females, there's be a BIG battle between "La {pronounced "Lah" and "Sha" {pronounced "shah". It'd be close, but I think in the end, "La" would win.

Think of all the "La" names you've heard over time: When I was growing up in the 1950s there was "Laverne", "Latitia", " Larissa", "Latrice", " Larice", "Laveda", and more. You may still hear these names, but more often you'll hear "La Toya", , "Lashawn", "Lashonda", "Lavona", "Lavonda" etc. Special mention should also be given to the Arabic female name "Latifah", sometimes written as "Latifa". All of the names of that second list were probably given to African American girls as personal names prior to the emergence of hip-hop in the 1970s. But it sure seems as if those second list examples of "La" names are more widely given now than the those on the first list.

...If you examine these names, you'll notice that a lot of them end with the "ah" sound. Older African American female names ending in in the 'ah' sound are "Ola", "Lena", "Sandra", and "Christina". "The name "Ola" was usually given as a double name, most often "Ola Mae". "Lah" also shows up as a suffix with an "ah" ending sound in the female names "Ella", "Edella", "'Priscella", "Samuella", and "Leila"....

African Americans have also persistently used 'isha' suffixes for female names. Contemporary examples of these names are "Tanisha" and "Shalisha". To add to a contemporary name's uniqueness, the suffix 'ia" can be further added onto female names ending in 'isha' ending to produce a name like "Shalishia". This name is either pronounced 'shah-LEE-shah' or 'shah-LEE-she-ah'.

...The 'African' name "Tamika" deserves special recognition. "Tamika" has been rather widely used as an 'African' name since the 1970s. However, the name actually comes from the Japanese female name "Tamiko" meaning 'girl child'. Its variant 'Tamika" gained popularity among African Americans due to a 1960s movie called "The Girl Named Tamiko", a movie that came out at a time when a considerable number of Afrocentric Black folks were seeking to ditch their European names and use 'African' names.

Since African Americans had considerably more information about the Arabic language than about traditional African languages [including Kiswahili}, many African names that were selected were actually Arabic names. In the 1970s to date an African American need not be Muslim to have an Arabic name. The most Christian of Christians can and have given their children Arabic names. BTW, Islam has been an 'African' religion in sub-Saharan West Africa since the 11th century B.C. Many North Africans and East Africans were converted to Islam before this time. Needless to say, some West Africans who were enslaved in the Americas and the Caribbean were Muslims and spoke Arabic. Variants of "Tamika" include "Tameka", Tamenika", Tamaka" and "Tamieka".....

-snip-

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM

'Jeri' as a girl's first name ranks 702 out of 4275 in census rankings. Its peak popularity as in 1950, but it had dropped well down by 1980.

Many years ago as a student I had a make-work job in the Texas capitol checking census and poll tax records. One first name I found was 'Lemon Meringue'.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:18 AM

Some years ago, a sociologist (Sorry, I've forgotten who) claimed that African-Americans and Mormons had the highest per-centage of 'non standard' names because they tended to have the largest families. Thus such names were necessary to provide a personal identity in a mix of Joe's, Bill's, and Mikes.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:20 AM

Re Dazbo's question about US usage of the "az" contraction, the only name that I can recall having heard it applied to is Charles - Chaz.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:23 AM

Not forgetting that both Lorna and Wendy are made up names from the past 100 or so years in Britain, and I'm sure there must be others.

Fascinating stuff Azizi; are these naming practices moving into other US ethinic groups or is it still predominantly African American?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:28 AM

When my son was born, there were almost no boys or men in the US named Ian. It became a fairly popular name a few years later.

When he was little, people here in the US thought my son had a very strange name. They wanted to pronounce it like "eon", and "eye-an". A lot of people thought I had made the name up myself. Just goes to show, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Amos
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 11:56 AM

Goes to show that a lot of people know very little, I reckon.

Azizi thanks for an interesting treatment on the subject; I have often wondered how much of the African Ameircan invention of names was reaction against subscribing to white traditions, or the resurrection of African linguistic legacy, or just being creative,. I guess it is some of each.

A

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 12:11 PM

Re: Princess Michael of Kent (AKA Princess Pushy) - her given name is Marie-Ann, her title (which she assumed on marriage) is Princess Michael. It remains masculine. Lady Diana Spencer would have become Princess Charles not Princess Diana, but instead became Diana, Princess of Wales.

There are instances of Michael as a feminine first name; the lady who played Olivia (Ma) Walton was Miss Michael Learned, but it's not common.

There have been many cases of names changing gender over the centuries - Shirley and Jocelyn both started out as male names and have changed over the years. Lesley is one of the few that actually acquired a different spelling (Lesley is feminine, Leslie is masculine), and many more were surnames that became first names.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:20 PM

Like slang, some personal names that are predominately used by African Americans will die a sudden death. Others will linger for a while and then fade away, and others will live long and prosper.

And "standard is as standard does" [to paraphrase a saying]. Most African Americans males and [even] females when I was growing up had what people call "regular" names.

But with African Americans there could be hidden significances to some of these names...for instance the name John Henry is a double first name or a first and middle name that refers to the legendary steel driving man. "Marcus" often refers to activist Marcus Garvey and "Malcolm" refers to "Malcolm X".

****

I believe that some names used by African Americans are becoming standard with us and may already have passed over to non-African Americans. If not now, eventually-and what usually happens when this occurs is that books on names will [conveniently] forget those names African American origin.

Here's a few examples of the "contemporary" names and nicknames that are becoming standard among African Americans are:

Keisha, a female name [pronounced KEE-shah] variant forms: Kesha; Keshia; Keesha, Kisha,Keysha; Keshyah; LaKeisha; etc etc etc}; This name has a Hebrew origin "Ketzia" which is pronounced different than Keisha; [meaning of Ketzia "sweet smelling spice"; and/or a Central African origin "Nkisa" [favorite one]

Deshawn, a male name {pronounced DAY-shon}-for all Shawn, Shon, Shaun names I use the meaning for "John" ["gracious gift of God" or "God is Gracious"]' The De prefix has no meaning...Very very common nickname [for alot of De names Day Day"; although note that "Deon" is pronounced DEE-on and not DAY-on].

"Juwan", a male name [pronounced JEW-wahn", is another "John" name that was borrowed consciously or unconsciously from the Spanish "Juan". This name is becoming very common in my area {Pittsburgh, PA]- I would give this name the same meaning as John.

Dre, male nickname for Andre, Dre is pronounced DRAY.
meaning from teh Greek male name "Andrew" [strong and manly]   

****

I'm not sure if any of these names have crossed over to non-African Americans. Because of the popularity of the nickname "Dre" among Hip-Hop fans [given its use by rappers, I can only think of Dr. Dre and others.] I would expect that of those examples I gave "Dre" is the most likely to cross over-and if it does I predict it will still be used by African Americans.

And why did African Americans start using "Andre" instead of "Andrew"? I think French names have more appeal for us than British names because the French names are seen as "different" in an exotic way, more exciting, and less square [no disrespect intended]. "Dre" is a logical clip of the name "Andre". But there's more to this story-IMO, the name "Andy" is too negatively linked to "Raggedy Ann and Andy" and especially-that stereotypical [but some say funny]radio and TV show "Amos and Andy" [again no disrespect intended].

Henceforth the name "Andy" was dropped like a hot potato...The name "Amos" was not given that often and seems not to have the same negative connotations as "Andy"...

****

Okay...I'mma stop...As you see I could go on and on and on-I really love this topic!

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

Andre is also Hispanic. My sister and brother-in-law named their second child "Andre" because of the part of my brother-in-law's ancestry that is Hispanic in origin.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM

I very much appreciate the receipt of a PM letting me know that "Lee" doesn't mean "poetic child" in Irish..

My source for that information is Sue Browder's "The New Age Baby Name Book". She credits the name to Irish Gaelic. That same book gave "plum" as th Chinese meaning of the female name "Lee". [??], and the old English meaning of "one who lives in a pasture meadow"

I have umpteen name books....Another book that I checked "Pamela A, Samuelson's Baby names Dor The New Century" also gives Irish Gaelic for one of the sources for the female name "Lee". That book gives "rhyming child" as the meaning for "Lee".

I trust information received from people from a culture much more than information from books. Although I found this name meaning in these two books, one editor could have copied erroneous information from the other.

Rather than check other books that I have or Internet websites, I'm curious whether others here can weigh in on this. Is "Lee" an Irish Gaelic female name, and if so what does it mean?

Also, are Irish and Irish Gaelic the same language?

Thank you.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 01:47 PM

Correction: Pamela A. Samuelson's "Baby names For The New Century"

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: ard mhacha
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM

Ian,Scots Gaelic for John, Sean, Irish Gaelic for John, the Shaun spelling of the name would have originated in the US, this spelling is not used in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

Thanks, your correction noted Ard Mhacha.

I appreciate that. And may I say this is one of the benefits of an international discussion forum.

Mudcat rocks!

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

Azizi, I mentioned a book on African-American names by Kiester. Is it any good? There are internet sites, but I don't trust them.

Names- There are studies of name meanings and origins, but I haven't gone into them. Generalizations are often wrong since most people apply a name they like without knowing the meaning.

Lee, Leigh, Lea- both first and last name, both male and female as first name. The Chinese Li which often is spelled Lee. There are Chinese families here where children are inconsistent on Anglicized spellings of these names. Also Yi and Yee, etc.

The name Frank, which is in some cases but not always from Francis (in Spanish Francisco, but in Mexico and SW U. S. becomes the nickname Pancho becaue of F. (Pancho) Villa.
Many male-female pairings of names, e. g. Francis and Frances (Fran, Frankie, Francesca and other variants from Europe, etc,). Why are some girls named Mary Frances, doubling up on names? Brendan and Brenda.
Bre and Brianda (The latter the Spanish girl's name, often shortened to Bre as a nickname).
Hmmm, Mary, Marian, Maria and Mario?

I had a Spanish girlfriend in school whose given name was Immaculata Concepción (which led to all sorts of jokes from those of us who were non-Catholic or raised without religion). She always went by a nickname. A not uncommon name in Mexico.

This could go on.....!

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM

Arabic names used by African Americans seem to lose much of the guttural quality.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM

Q, sorry I don't know that book. I've tried to refrain from buying any more name books. As you might imagine, the ones I like the most for 'standard' European/Hebrew names are older [pre 1980s].

****

Le Scaramouche, I believe that you were probably talking about the fact that we don't pronounce these names the same as Arabic speaking people, but your succient comment "Arabic names used by African Americans seem to lose much of the guttural quality" hit my funny bone. I think it was the similarity between the word "gutteral" and "gutter". My first reaction was the saying popularized by the book "The Virginian" -"When you say that- smile."

[Maybe you have to have been there to see the humor in this.]

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:23 PM

I thought Iain was Scottish for John. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

Q, thanks for the history on my name. I had no idea it was ever anything more than an anomoly!

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:04 PM

John Hebrew. Ian Gaelic. Iain, Eoin, Sean, Shane, Juan, Jack, Ivan, etc. Meaning- God's gracious gift (Hebrew), God is merciful (Gaelic).
So says Herr Doktor Prof. Google. I suppose Johann, Joanna, etc. belong in the same corral.
(Don't ask me if that is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:15 PM

My buddy named his two sons very uncommon names for young boys today: William (Will, for short) and Jack (just Jack. It's not short for anything).

They are the only boys with those types of names in their classes at school, being surrounded with a bunch of Kyles, Jordans, Tylers, and Tysons.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 05:48 PM

John in Hebrew is Yochanan. The meaning is The Lord has pardoned (or forgiven, more or less), not to be confused with Jonathan. That means The Lord has given.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:24 PM

Of people I've actually met, probably the one who had the most unusual English name was "Rebel Lee Smith" (a girl). She must have been born around 1960.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 06:53 PM

My given name is Arthur Chase Brooks III, and my father was ACB Junior, and his father...anyway, you get the idea. I never heard of this being used for girl children. My grandfather's middle name was his mother's maiden name, which was a common naming convention in the US in the late 19th century. I expect that there are a lot more IIIs (and even IVs) around than you might think. It was very popular in my parent's day. so there were a lot of IIIs around when I was a kid. I dropped the III (unofficially) at the same time I began using Art rather than Arthur, and I think most other numerically designated people did as well (but I do allow anyone to put that name on a check if they want to....)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

Azizi, Gaeilge, Gaelic and Irish are names for the Irish language, yes.

Lee isn't an Irish name; sometimes you hear it used nowadays, but it's an importation from the US.

If you look on Google for "English-Irish online dictionary" you'll find a couple of dictionaries online that will give you words in Irish for any word in English.

Eoin or Eoghan is the usual Irish version of the name John; Seán is also sometimes used as a translation. It's a man's name.

Some people in Ireland are now using traditionally male names for girls - for instance, calling girls Dara or Naoise - but usually if they want to use "Shawn", a re-importation from America, they add an "a" at the end. I've also seen some trendy types spelling their son's name Shaun or Shawn.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: MARINER
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 07:32 PM

These strange personal names are not the preserve of America, although they certainly originated there . It's spreading. Last week a report in a local Irish paper referred to a young baby girl whose name was Leteisha !
       A friend of mine reckons that this trend , for weird names are becoming common here, is a single young mother thing that comes from watching too much daytime television shows such as Ricky Lake , Queen Letifah etc,. Both of these and others of that type , air over here in the afternoons.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:19 PM

The strangest names I've heard were all connected with war stories. Smyrna was the boat that rescued a woman's father. Torness was the last name (all he ever learned) of a marine who saved a man's life. Likewise, Stroad.There are a couple of others that won't come to mind right now. One man who thought he was going to die at the landing at Tarawa swore to name his first child after the patron saint of soldiers (Romanus) if he survived to have one. He did and it was a girl - Romalee.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:23 PM

MARINER, it is interesting to hear that "American" names are being picked up in Ireland and elsewhere.

However, may I suggest that the adjectives "strange" and "weird" reflect negative valuations that "different" and "non-standard" do not.

Of course, one person's difference may be another person's "standard".

For instance, it surprised me one day to hear a young adult I know categorize "Louise" and "Roland" as "different" names. These names were relatively common when I was her age.

And by the way, "Leteisha" is probably a variant form of the Latin female name "Letitia" [meaning "gladness"]. I believe a Latin variant is "Leda". Other English variants are "Letty" and "Leticia". An Italian variant is "Letizia", Letycia {Polish}

True, "Rickie" used to be a male nickname for the Old German name "Richard" [powerful ruler], and I'm not sure what Rickie Lake's first name is [maybe it is "Rickie" and if so, more power to her}.

"Latifa" is an Arabic female name that means "delicate, sensitive, and kind" .

The world wide wide is making the world smaller. Once insulated places are not insulated anymore.

Things will change. And naming practices will probably be a small [or larger] part of that change.

You may regret it. You may attempt to preserve some customs, and succeed in that preservation. But sure as the sun rises and sets, change happens.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

Correction:

The world wide web

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Art - you are a rare creature - a IIIrd! In Britain in the 17th/18th Centuries, it was considered highly unlucky to name the third generation of first borns the same as the others. This is very obvious in my family where the pattern goes William (c1705) , William (b1731), John (b1762), John (b1790), William (b1814). There are similarities in sibling families too. In 5 generations (41 people) there are 9 male Christian names given, but never more than 2 consecutively for firstborn sons.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:09 AM

Azizi - Shakil I don't find in my Arab dictionary, only Shakila = cocotte.
The stem shakl has nothing to do with beauty, but with doubt, difficulties, forms and shackling.
It is not a variant of Shakeel; ee is used in English orthography for the long i (as in beer) instead of the original to avoid a mispronunciation (as in I) since the days of the Raj.

Latititia has no prefix la-; it is part of the root. Originally Latin laetitia = cheerfulness.

I can understand that African Americans are fed up with the classical names (Scipio, Cicero et al.) given to their ancestors by their slavedrivers, but why should they change to the names given by another bunch of former slavedrivers? I've met so many Africans at university with fine genuine African names.

And the prize for the silliest orthography, in my humble opinion, goes to the name Condoleezza (sort of rice?)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:13 AM

When did the use of III (for example) come into practice? It used to be the preserve of royalty.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:48 AM

... and the bishops of Rome, patriarchs and other church dignitaries in highest positions

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:41 AM

Yes of course, forgot them, but it's not something layity would use.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

The use of the mother's maiden name as a childs middle name was also quite common in the UK in the 19th centuary - e.g. Isambard Kingdom Brunel. (This also brings up one of my pet hates: the imported practice of the wife retaining her surname and adding her husband's at the end - for example Farrah Fawcett Majors. I'd much rather she'd kept her maiden name if she didn't want to change to her husband's!)

Also in my ancestory where the name of the father is the same as his son it is changed in the third generation - I'd not know about it being bad luck.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 08:39 AM

Wilfried Schaum,

IMO, African Americans don't base their naming practices on linguistics or proscribed meanings of syllables. Here's what I think we base our personal names on:

1. The sound of the name {does the name "sound good" to us
                         based on certain sound preferences
                         that seem to be cultural, some apparentlylong
                         lasting some more recent.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:15 AM

Hmmm forgive me for that I didn't intend to press submit. If I may continue with my theory of what names seem to be most appealing to African Americans

2. the length of the name {two syllables with the accent on the first
                           syllable, or three syllables with the
                           accent on the next to the last syllable.*
                        
3. the positive association- {names of stars that meet the other
   of the name with someone   criteria are adopted; negative
   or something in popular    associations
   culure   

4. the use of established
   prefixes and or suffixes {this probably refers back to #1: for
                               example "La"; as opposed to the older
                               "Le" as a prefix for females:
                               "ika" as opposed to "ous" as a
                               suffix- contemporary "ika"
                               female: "ous" older, basically
                               retired suffix for males such as
                               "Theodous"      

5. the look of a name       {this appears to be much more importance
                              in the late 20th century and now; I
                              am referring to the use of
                              capitolizations {for instance DeAndre
                              instead of Deandre}; accent marks,
                              hypens
                              
                              
6,7, 8 ect I'm sure there are more; this is just a beginning
   
*Maybe all these criteria are the same as in mainstream America except that I think that we {African Americans} may not have the
same sound preferences and also may not have the same positive/negative associations. Furthermore, I think that African American culture values improvisation more than mainstream [non-African American culture}. IMO, we excel in creating things whole cloth and making creative use of already existing material to fashion something new. Thus the plethera of "new" or different "African American" personal names.

As to the use of Arabic names: IMO, religion is low on the reasons why we {African Americans} select names. Islam came to Western Africa in the 11th century as conquerors but the same could be said for the Anglos and the Saxons and Vikings [which ever group or groups conquered which ever...But English people have no problem using the names of their long ago conquerors, is that not so?

There are historical documents that prove that some Africans who were enslaved came from Muslim parts of West Africa. Some enslaved Africans were Muslim and gave Muslim {Arabic names, or Africanized Arabic names such as the female name "Habibatu" instead of "Habiba"}to their children}. Arabic names were [and still are] more known to us [and other Americans than traditional African names. For example wasn't [isn't?] there a White US General Omar Bradley? and what about "Ali Baba and the 30 Theives"? and Princess Shaharazade]. The Moorish American movement in the 1940s or so sparked the reintroduction of Arabic names [since followers of that religion give their children and themselves Arabic names and hyphenate their European last name with an Arabic suffix {Bey, Ali, or El}. The rise of Sunni Islam among African Americans and the adoption of Arabic names by famous African American jazz musicians and sports figures promoted their use among other African Americans, many of whom were not {and are not}Muslim.

As more African Americans learn traditional African names we have adopted them as they are and have adapted them to suit our preferences.

Language is alive for us, and change is a part of being alive.



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

As to the meaning of Shakil, Shakel, {and probably its African American variant "Shaquille"}- I did not find Shakil in my Arabic name books either but found it on a website of Arabic names- I believe it was one of the "Behind The Names" sites...

I found this noted on a website about Shaquille O'Neil:

"O'Neal was named "Shaquille Rashaun" ("Little Warrior" in Arabic) by his biological father"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaquille_O'Neal

-snip-

Both the names "Shaquille" and "Rashaun" might demonstrate African American's tendency to 'make up' meanings for names based on what they want it to mean or have heard or read {erroneous as it might be}.

"Rashaun" may be from the Arabic male name "Rashad" whose meaning a book I have is "symbol or sign of faith, integrity of conduct, reason, good sense; This name is similar to [from the same root as] "Rashid"; "Rasheed" which is said to mean "rightly guided; intelligent}

What could have been the reason for the change in suffix? We African Americans are much more "in to" the "aun" sound then the "id"; "eed" sound. Besides African Americans became familiar with Arabic names from famous African Americans and [if the sound preferences fit our liking] used those names {think jazz musician Rashaun Roland Kirk}...   

"aun"; "on" btw is a very hot ending for both female and male African American names. As in the male names "Devon","Trevon"; see also the addition of a suffix to add style and cache to the name {Devonte; Devontay} also add an accent mark or hyphen to be even more unique

"Uniqueness", "being in style" should be added to my list for what criteria African Americans use for selection of names. That's why you find so many similar sounding names among children in the same classroom.

My daughter is a 2nd grade teacher. What interested me about her class roster this year was the large number of "De" names for males. I'll ask her for that list of first names and post it here later.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:44 AM

Also see this excerpt from an online article on African American naming practices:

"These creative new generation names are not rooted in historical precedent, heroic sentiment or the appreciation of literature. The main reasons for concocting them is simply that they sound pleasing to the ear of the parents, are spelled in some unique fashion, give the impression of being unique, or all of the foregoing. Among other things, a strong affinity for French-sounding names is quite obvious with the articles L', Le, and La used in abundance. Also very popular are the prefixes Sha, She, Shi, Ja, Je, Ka, Da, and De; and the suffixes isha, esha, ika, ius, ante, and ita. We also note the prediliction for mid-word capitalization (examples: LaQunda, LucQuente, D'Livero, AuTashea, DeLisha, NeClea) and the rising trend toward hyphenation (Fa-Trenna, K-Rob, R-Kal). In our survey by far the most common name for males was Marcus and for females Latoya topped the list. Other common female names with variant spellings were Tawanda, Keisha, Lakeisha, Sheniqua, Chante, Ebony, and Tamisha; and for males Marquis, Lamont, Jamal, Tremaine, Jermaine, Daryl, Tyrone, Dwayne, Shawn, Darius, Devon, and Antoine. The stereotypical Leroy is no longer in vogue...

-snip-

For more see click
Afrocentric Naming

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Omar is originaly a Biblical name.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:12 AM

Also to clarify:

I don't mean to imply that African Americans made up the name "Devon".

"Devon" may come from the Irish Gaelic Devin [meaning poet, savant].
I've also seen "Devin" listed as {Latin/French-Heavenly" .

Though "Devon" may be a variant of "Devin", "Devonte", "Devontae", Devontay etc are definitely male names of contemporary [post 1970s] African American origin.

BTW, I've usually heard "Devon" pronouned DAY-vaun' with the "von' rhyming with Shaun {which name I believe is responsible for it's promotion}, since one of the foremost ways we {African Americans} create names is by rhyming...Hence "Shaun" gave energy to the use of the name "Devon" which may have help birth Trevon {TRAY-vaun}; Trevonte, Trevontae etc. {seeing how many ways to phonetically spell an ending is also a biggy with us}

And speaking of "Shaun", my theory is that the name "Shaun" became very popular with African Americans as a result of the popularity of the 007 spy movies in the 1960s and on. Sean Connery was the actor who played 007. Since "Sean" doesn't conform with phonetic spelling, that spelling was changed to "Shaun" and "Shawn" and then "Shon".

And there are umpteen "Shaun", "Shon", and "Shawn" names for males and females. Just play with prefixes, add a suffix, capitolizations and maybe throw in an accent mark and-you've created a new name {that just happens to be the same as countless other new names, but oh well!}

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 10:34 AM

Devon is part of the West Country.
Although nowadays dont think I could give it to anyone, it sounds like a porn star name.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:18 AM

Le Scaramouche you said "Devon is part of the West Country".

Do you mean England?

How is that "Devon" pronounced?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 11:29 AM

Devun more or less.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: kendall
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM

When you have a good name, why mess with it?

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

Kendell, I would imagine that using a root name as a base and playing with it to arrive at a variant is done for the same reason that people "mess with" a good song-in other words, for the creativity of it all, and to put their own "stamp" on it.

Another way of saying this is to make the name their own just as jazz & blues and gospel singers & musicians [if not folk singers and musicians] make a song/music their own.

{Of course, there's some people who think that a song must always be played exactly the same way every time. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 03:46 PM

Unless you live there, in which case it's pronounced "Deb'n".

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From:
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 04:31 PM

Re Wendy as a "made up" name -- originally, at least. wasn't it a nickname for Gwendolyn? (and very popular in England a few decades ago).

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 06:31 PM

As I think Azizi has shown (I hope I am not mis-reading), syllables that look like prefixes or suffixes in English or other languages may or may not perform that function in naming, and may or may not have the same meaning even if they do.
I actually knew of a baby named'Devon.' His parents had a friend who named their child (female) DeVonne, and they assumed that Devon vould be a male equivalent. They certainly weren't thinking of either the English Devon or the prefix 'de.'
There are only a very few African-Americans in the province (western Canada); they came here only because of the two professional football teams in the province which contract American players. Most with African origins here are from the Caribbean or Africa; their naming practices follow their particular homeland culture or, if Catholic or C of E, the church's practices.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Fun while it lasted
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:11 PM

Well, my first name is not all that common; it's Heywood.

That was my father's first name and his father's before him.

But I'm the last of the line and the name dies with me. Should have married and changed my habits long ago. The last male in the Jabloamy family line has let down his ancestors.

The name seemed like a great one when I was younger...

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:32 PM

Q, you have correctly stated what I was trying to say.

And I am also suggesting these points:

1. Different languages have the personal names which are spelled the same or very much alike but have different meanings

2. A "prefix" such as "de" should not be interpreted as 'of' just because it means that in Spanish or some other language.


3. Some contemporary "made up" personal names have no established meaning

4. Names that are spelled the same or similarly may be pronounced differently depending on cultural customs

5. Particular cultures have sound preferences. Some of these sound
preferences may change over time and some may stay the same for a long time

6. African Americans {and other people} use certain formulaic approaches to create variants of existing names or entirely new names

7. A person may 'borrow' the meaning of a similar spelled name to develope & reinforce self-esteem

8. A person may create a meaning for a name to help develope and reinforce positive self-esteem

9. Making up personal names is a creative activity that is accessible to most people.

****

I look forward to reading more about naming practices around the world.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

Let me try to rephrase the first point of my previous post:

1. Two or more languages may have personal names which are spelled the same or spelled very similarly but these names may not have the same meaning

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 09:52 PM

Guest, you name reminded me of Heywood Broun, the journalist and trade unionist, who coined many notable quotes. One of my favorites-

"Everybody favors free speech in the slack moments when no axes are being ground."

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:49 AM

'Az^iz^i = arab. my dear [male]. Female form: 'Az^izat^i

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 10:13 AM

Wilfried Schaum,

Thanks. I have seen the meaning "my dear" {"my dearest one"} for the Arabic female name "Aziza". I was told that the KiSwahili form of this name is "Azizi". I have also been told and read that other meanings for the female name "Azizi"/"Aziza" are "precious", "darling", and "rare" {in the same sense that precious jewels are rare}.

I have also read that in Arabic the male form of this name, "Aziz" means "mighty"; "powerful". "Al Azizi" is one of the attributes of Allah {"The Mighty"; "The Powerful"}

****

According to books that I have read, "Wilfried" is a form of the Old German male name "Wilfred" or "Wilfrid" and means "resolute, peaceful" or "friend of peace"

I have not been able to find the meaning of the surname "Schaum".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

engl. foam; the surname of the cook. Can also be Schaumlöffel = skimmer, from his tool.
There are some stories spooking in the family about a bowman fighting in the second crusade called in combat: "schau um" = look behind you, but I don't believe this. My ancestors are well documented as innkeepers from the 14th to the 17th centuries, then a younger son had to go to university. So they changed to Lutheran ministers.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 02:12 PM

It still strikes me a bit odd that KiSqahili would be Azizi, when I thought they followed the same gender as Arabic.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

How does one correctly pronouce IAN? I don't hear it that often but it's always been pronounced EE-an. I don't want to sound like a knuckle-dragging dunderhead so please educate me.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:28 PM

Find Azizi here, in the Kamusi Project Swahili Dictionary (Yale Univ.).
Swahili
Both adjectival and noun forms of Azizi given.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

E-an as in EEE-HAW!
(Sorry, couldn't resist the impulse)
One yclept Ian lives in our block; he pronounces it e'an.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:22 AM

Yes Ian is pronounced EE-an as you suggest (as is its variant Iain unless you are being very picky about pronounciation).

One of the greats of English cricket of the 1980s was Ian Botham and during a test match between England and India (or Pakistan)... Let me digress for a moment: on the BBC Radio commentary it is the usual practice to have at least one of the commentators from the opposing team's country. Right, got that? Okay, I'll continue... and one of the commentators from the Sub-Continent continually pronounced his name thus (to much hilarity amongst the listening public)

I-An Bot-Ham

but factor in his accent and it often sounded like:

Iron Bottom

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM

Here are the names of 7 & 8 year old African American children who are in one Pittsburgh, PA 2nd grade class that my daughter teaches:

I'll include pronunciation for the "non-standard" names

Room A:
Dajanai {pronounced "day-JAH-nay"} Female

DeAzia {Dee Asia} F

Rashawn {Ray Shawn} Male

Keiare {key AIR} M

Marcel M

Kiarra {key AIR rah} F

Maneha {mah NAY ah} F

Gionni {Gee AUN-nee} F

Deontay {Dee AUN-tay} M

Satoria {sah TOR-ree-ah} F

Matthew M

Dan'ual {Daniel} M

Tier {TEE air} F

Sharif {shah REEF} M

Raaziq {rah-ZEK} M

Shawntre {shawn-tray} M

Ladajza {lah-DAY-shah} F

Qu'raun {COR-RAUN; the name oflike the Islamic holy book} M

****

These examples of personal names reflect the large number of
so-called "different" first names given to African Americans. Given the fact that most of their peers have these names, I would expect that if asked, these children would say that their names are "regular". It seems to me that these children have a wider range of "regular" or "standard" names.

When I was growing up in the 1950s, the only one if these names that I would have considered "standard" {or "regular"} is "Matthew".

This list includes European names such as "Marcel"; Arabic names such as "Sharif" and "Aaliyah", African American Arabic names such as "Dealbalik" and "Raaziq", and African American "made up" names that are based on European or Hebrew personal names, or are of traditional African languages, or were created "from scratch".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:40 PM

My daughter teaches English, reading, and spelling to the public school's two 2nd grade classes. Here are the first names of the other class.

I include pronunciations for those names that most people would consider non-standard:

Class B:

Christiana {Female}

Deabalik {dee-ah-BAH-leek} {Male}

Malik {mah-LEEK} {M}

Erik {M}

Duane {M}

DaVonte {day VAUN-tay} {M}

Makayla {mah-KAY-lah} {F}

Raekwon {rayk-QUAN} {M}

Tyree {Tie-REE}M

Daelon {day-LON} {M}

Tier {tie-AIR} M

Larry {M}

Khamya {cam-YAH} {F}

Londyn {Lon-den} {F}

Andre {M}

Parish {M}

Gennel {gen-NELL} {F}

Aaliyah {ah-LEE-yah} {F}

Donasia {dah-NAY-sha} {F}

Jalayia {jah-LAY-yah} {F}

Dajon {day-JAUN} {M}

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 12:42 PM

Correction, there is only one Tier in these classes.
He was moved from Class "A" to Class "B".

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

Deabalik {dee-ah-BAH-leek} - I (potentially*) feel sorry for this guy sounds too much like Diabolic for him not to get a life-time of the mickey being taken out of him.

*Assuming US kids have just as much a cruel, name-calling streak as they do over here.

The main "problem" I would see from this trend is the difficulty in judging the correct pronunciation of the name from the written word and in remembering the correct spelling (how many different spellings of Darren did I see as a child). I've known people get very upset when their names are mis-pronounced and this certainly isn't going to improve it for people like that.

Of course I'm not saying that regular names don't have the same problem:

Anthony was always pronounced Antony or Ant-hony, with a very slight h sound, it was never pronounced Anth-ony.

Darren

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

I first noticed the new "made up" names for babies as an action of my peers in the 60's and 70's (hippies for the most part) rebelling against the "establishment". They started naming their kids names such as Heather, Sage, Sunshine, Hunter... and then there is Frank Zappa and his choices, Moon Unit and Dweezle.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:44 AM

Heather is hardly a "made up" name or rebelling. One of my aunts is called Heather and must be well into her late 60 or early 70's by now and was quite common over here.

Of course there was also Rolan Bolan - Marc's son, and Zowie Bowie - David's son. Am I right in thinking that many of these children of celbrities with names like this have converted to 'normal' names.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:11 PM

Dazbo, Heather was not a common US name until "nature" names became popular. It reminds me of the family of Keeping Up Appearances... Rose, Hyacinth, etc. Flower, plant, animal, "nature" names became popular in the US during the hippie revolution. One neighbor I had rebelled against her parents by legally changing her name, Kathy, to Topaz.

I just watched a rerun of the movie "Flash From the Past" last night. The character who has emerged from being raised all his life in a fallout shelter, educated in his parent's 1950's culture, emerges and meets a woman whose name is Heather... "My, I don't think I've ever heard that name before." (big laugh)

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Alice
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

Here is an interesting site of baby names that were the most popular in the US by decade since the 1880's. The lists were compiled by the US Social Security Administration.
http://www.thenewparentsguide.com/most-popular-baby-names.htm

Top Ten Boy's and Girl's Names in the 1880's, United States
        
Boy's 1.  John
Girl's 1.  Mary
2.  William        
2.  Anna
3.  Charles        
3.  Elizabeth
4.  George        
4.  Margaret
5.  James        
5.  Minnie
6.  Joseph        
6.  Emma
7.  Frank        
7.  Martha
8.  Henry        
8.  Alice
9.  Thomas        
9.  Marie
10.  Harry        
10.  Sarah

Top Ten Boy's and Girl's Names in the 1990's, United States
Boy's 1.  Michael        
Girl's 1.  Ashley
2.  Christopher        
2.  Jessica
3.  Matthew        
3.  Sarah
4.  Joshua        
4.  Brittany
5.  Jacob        
5.  Emily
6.  Nicholas        
6.  Samantha
7.  Andrew        
7.  Amanda
8.  Daniel        
8.  Katherine
9.  Tyler        
9.  Megan
10.  Brandon        
10.  Brianna

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 04:47 PM

Dazbo,

I agree with you that contemporary African American names are difficult to pronounce-particularly if a person tries to use the English vowel sounds instead of the ah, a, ee, oh, oo, sounds that Spanish, Italian, Arabic, KiSwahili and some other languages use. Also after awhile, you learn that most of these names adher to a fromulaic pattern that dictates {or at least strongly suggest} which syllable receives the accent.

That said, I goofed on the pronunciation of the name "Deabalik" {which I have never heard or seen before-which is no excuse}.

Taht name is pronounced "dee-AH-bah-leek" The "AH" is only slightly accented, that syllable flowing into the syllables that follow it.

I admit that I'm not fond of this particular name. I "hear" your point that the name "Diabalik" is similar to the word "diabolical". However I'm not sure that these children will make that connection {I didn't until you mentioned it}.

The male {Arabic} name "Malik" and its female form "Malika" have been very widely used among African Americans since the early 1970s. You will note that the name "Deabalik" rhymes with "Malik".

Many contemporary African American children in my area and I suspect throughout the USA are familiar with many male & female names starting with "Dee". Given this context, and the large number of other name created by rhyming, I think that they may consider "Deabalik" just another name.

And besides, in my opinion, the personality and charisma {or lack of charisma} of the "owner" of any name will play a large part in determining if people disrespect that name.

I repeat my view that it seems to me that African Americans are much more accepting of "differnt names" and maybe that acceptance is growing among that age group and other African Americans {and perhaps also other races/ethnicities}.

In the 1980s or so, some middle class Black people had a term for these names-we called them "ghetto" name. And that wasn't a compliment.

I suspect that there are alot of older Black Americans who are still making fun of these "made up" names.



Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:06 PM

Alice,

Thanks for posting that list. It makes interesting reading, but I suspect that list doesn't pertain to African Americans.

Just a few comments about that lists: The names "Brianna" and "Brittany" were also big in the 1990s or so among African Americans, but I think their popularity has faded.

One African American naming tradition is the first letter conformity among family members. I have a nephew whose pre-teen and teenage daughters are named "Brittany" and Brianna". His sons also have "B" names.

****

There's been little mention yet about the role that popular celebrities and television characters play in personal naming traditions.

I believe that I mentioned my theory about the popularity in African American communities of Sean Connery's double 007 role. It's interesting that the name "Sean" and not the name "James" or "James Bond" became the name that was used as a base for so many Shawn names...{I think this goes back to my belief that there is something about the "sh" sound that we [African Americans] like...

****

Another celebrity name that haa been used by African American [and other?] males & females is "Jordan"- from Michael Jordan {Michael is too "regular", but it appears that "Jordan" is getting played out because it's getting too much play {being used too often}.


Azizi

btw: I'm slated to teach a Community College continuing ed course this fall on African American naming traditions. This thread will be included in the class's suggested reading list.

Subject: RE: BS: US personal names
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

Correction:

What I meant to say that if my theory is correct, given the popularity of "James Bond double 007, it's interesting that "James" wasn't used as a source for multiplicity of male and female names.
{Of the top of my head I can think of the name "Jamesetta", and "Jamie" {both female} but not others.

Obviously, "Sean" would be used as a base for "Shawn" names...

:O)