BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning

Subject: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

News from Ireland that the I.R.A. has put all it's weapons beyond use. Thia act was witnessed by the decomissioning committee, one catholic clergyman and one protestant clergyman. This news should be welcomed with relief and open arms ? one would think,

Well think again. Almost immediately the Loyalist leaders and politicians are saying that it is not enough. (which is what I expected to hear anyway.). For all those who in the past have jumped on the bandwagon and condemned the I.R.A. for one thing or another, forgetting the fact that the I/R.A. has adhered to it's ceasefire since 1997/98, The following is part of a statement from a leading unionist.

Please bear this statement in mind when trying to pin the blame for the troubles in N.Ireland, almost entirely on the Nationalist and the I.R.A.

----------------------------------------------------------

General John de Chastelain will not see loyalists decommission if "he lives to be 208", a prominent loyalist has said.
The general said he was satisfied the IRA had given up all its weapons, and said he hoped loyalists would as well.

Sammy Duddy, a member of the Ulster Political Research Group - which advises the UDA, said loyalists would not follow the IRA's lead.

"The general has no chance of seeing that achieved. Should he live to be 208, he'll never see it," he said.

"He's living in cloud-cuckoo-land if he thinks the loyalists are going to decommission and do what the IRA's doing.

'Greatest fear'

"You see, the IRA have all the clout, this is how they've come to the table today.

"They've all the clout, they can go and make another Canary Wharf tomorrow.

"The greatest fear is the threat of a united Ireland. As I said it would be resisted by all and every opportunity and we don't care about other things as such."

-----------------------------------------------------------

As one who has more thatn a passing interest in these development my congtatulations goes out to Sinn- Fein and the I.R.A for taking this tremendous step and leap of faith.

My prayers are also with those nationalist communities in Belfast, Derry. Arnagh, Newry, and other little towns throughout the 6 counties, because they are now in greater danger than ever,. The statement from Sammy Duddy means only one thing, that is that the catholic/natiolist areas will be attacked, tormented, goaded to a greater degree than we have seen or some time by radical loyalist hoping against hope for soem sort of retalitory response so they can break the peace accord. An accord that they never supported in the first place. In previous threads, myself and others have stated that the unionistst's want nothing short of a return to the the old days when they ruled the roost. - Mark my words, in the coming weeks the attacks on catholics and catholic neighbourhoods will increase. I hope the ones who were critical about the McCartney murders will get their eyes open and I hope they are as critical of the loyalists as they have been of the I.R.A.

Jimmy C

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

Yeah, Jimmy. Looks like these Orange lads will do exactly what has always been said would be done. Many of us here have said repeatedly that the problem in the peace process lied across the divide. And Paisley and company are proving it. Shows the brilliance in the plan. Kind of has echoes of 1916, eh, in that this may turn world opinion against the obstructionists? Back then it was the acts of the British military which turned public opinion against them after the executions.

Putting the ball in their court, in the long haul, will be seen as a brilliant move. Now ...... onward to the elections.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 06:37 PM

Decissioning?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM

None so blind ...

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM

Strange the language of Irish politics. Chastelain says he believes it was done, but he doesn't know it was done. This kind of theological nit picking I find confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:51 PM

Big Mick said : "Putting the ball in their court, in the long haul, will be seen as a brilliant move."

Pray they pick up the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

Decommissioning was carried out alright, under a complete media blackout. And now we can watch and see what the loyalists do next, though I'm afraid we may already know. Hope the North is ready for all that is to come...God bless Ireland, all 32 counties.

E

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:28 PM

Sure Jimmy, the Provos deserve credit, and no-one in his right mind would "pin the blame for the troubles almost entirely on the nationalists and IRA". The biggest problem now, as I have said over and over again, is the mindset in loyalism. Not only have they lost the Ascendancy (which they abused mercilessly) but they now see themselves as an extremely vulnerable minority on the island of Ireland.

In historic terms their entitlement to live in Ireland is stronger than the entitlement of any white guy to live in north America. And arguably they have been less exploitative of the indigenous population than their white counterparts were in the US. Anyone intrested in long-term reconciliation will be cutting them some slack right now, by ignoring their stupidities and the flounderings of the feeble loyalist leadership.

I may be no fan of this Blair government, but they can't be faulted on the peace process. Likewise the Dublin government, whose justice minister is right as well as self-interested, in his concern that the proceeds of crime could now be used to fund Sinn Fein political campaigning. (This risk still holds even if the Provos had nothing to do with the Northern Bank robbery.) I can't think of any democracy in the world that takes issue with the approach of the UK government.

Incidentally, as Greg has implied, this whole decommissioning process is laughably convoluted. Does the IRA really have to be so coy? At the end of the war for independence in what was then Rhodesia, the troops of Zanu PF and Zapu PF came out of the country and into the cities, and placed their weapons on huge piles, in front of the whole world. Ian Smith and his cronies would certainly have had a credibility problem if they'd tried to deny it had happened. So why make it so easy for Paisley?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:07 PM

Mr. Happy _ a mere typo, did you never make one ???.

Greg, - Chastelaine was a witness to the event, what he did say is that he cannot prove outright that 100% of the weapons were destroyed. In fact nobodey can prove that. If an individual nationalist keeps a single revolver for example, does that diminish the big picture ?.

Peter K. I don't know much about Rhodesia but I do know that defeated armies usually pile their weapons in a bunch to be witnessed by all. However the I.R.A. were not defeated, this act today is an opening for unionists to recognise a genuine invitation to get together to settle on the future of the country, if they fail to do that then they cannot blame anyone but themselves.

I also know that they have a historic right to be there just as much as many white people in North America, the difference is that the whites in North America became North Americans, the loyalists in the 6 counties have never, even after many generations considered themselves Irish, and that mindset has to change. Of course when they leave and go to Australia, America, Canada or wherever they are all of a sudden Irish. I guarantee you will never get Paisley or any of his followers to openly declare themselves to be Irish. And that is sad, very sad.

The effects of this decommisioning will be clearly seen in the next elections with massive gains for Sinn Fein in both the north and the south.

Although I personally do not agree with giving up the guns it is asmart and politically shrewd move by the I.R.A.

The unionists tonight must imagine themselves to be stalemated.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:34 AM

Pity Mudcat has no contributors from the Loyalist side.
Can anyone put their arguments across?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:50 AM

Forget it Keith. They would just be shot down by a 100 abusive posts. Mudcat exists to reinforce certain views only.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Can we all put the last 35 years behind us and accept Catholics deserve seats in local government.The D.U.P. will always resist this, wish they would just come out and be honest. The reason for our men not to to use a gun is more important than owning one. The Republican fight is over. Can we just be seen as equals by the Ulster protestant ? I doubt this. What went into concrete yesterday was massive.A fifth of the arsenal wasn't even out of its grease packing. The Provisionals in a statement some time back apologised for the loss of life in the conflict. A few Loyalist groups did too. So gentlemen together put this to bed and lets not get into the blame game.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM

It's certainly a tough one. While it is easy to prove the existance of something it is impossible to prove non-existance of same. To prove weapons exist you simply have to find them - Ask George Bush and Tony Blair;-) To prove they don't exist by the same example you would have to ask Saddam Hussein how he fared...

As to the loyalist viewpoint - I can understand them even if I disagree. Bearing in mind that people judge each other by their own standards it becomes simple to see how the likes of Paisley believe that everyone else is lying and cheating. They firmly believe that if they give up the power they have they will be treated in the same manner as they have treated to Nationalist and Catholic peoples.

The difficult thing now will be to convince them that they will be treated fairly and justly in any future establishment. We know they will, everyone else knows they will but they genuinely believe that they will become second class citizens if they give up the power they have. Having learned, from the Nationalists, that just removing the power only causes problems the governments of both England and Ireland wnat to ensure the Unionist faction do not become the 'new IRA'.

Beyond me I'm afraid but I'm sure someone will eventualy arrive at the right solution.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:31 AM

"Peter K. I don't know much about Rhodesia but I do know that defeated armies usually pile their weapons in a bunch to be witnessed by all. However the I.R.A. were not defeated"

You don't indeed know much about it, Jimmy. Zanu PF and Zapu PF were not defeated. In fact they were the outright winners. That's why Rhodesia is now Zimbabwe. I'm pointing this out only because it directly undermines the point you tried to make.

From the fact that you see a continuing case for private armies I assume you are not content with democratic process. That attitude raises legitimate concerns in the minds of decent prods, of whom there are some, believe it or not. Understandably so in my view.

Keith A, you're absolutely right. These threads tend to be tediously one-sided, with some contributors incapable of seeing the problems from any standpoint but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:39 AM

In 1969 when the Unionists were thinking of advocating one man one vote to the Nationalists, the UVF bombed a number of electrical power transmitters in both Northern Ireland and the Republic, knowing that the IRA would be blamed and the "generous"consession by the northern government would be overturned.

The media along with both governments blamed the IRA, when a UVF man was killed planting a bomb in Donegal the local Nationalists had their suspicions confirmed as to who the culprits were.   Let there be no doubt Nationalist areas will again be in more danger than before, as Paisley and Co urges the Protestant people to "defend Ulster".

Already the Unionists are saying that the Decommisioning body have been hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:43 AM

I was so sad to read recently that when the Grand Master of The Orange Order in Belfast Dawson Baille was asked for his response to the recent disturbances in loyalist areas of Belfast he sat on television and said he totally condoned violence. He condoned all violence and understood why they did it. He added he condoned attacks against the police. He is an ex member of the Royal Ulster Constubalary himself. If this is local leadership I am sorry for your future over there.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:50 AM

Everyone move on now. Nothing to see. All go home.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 06:34 AM

The man charged with the bombing of the electrical power transmitters was a close friend of Ian Paisley. He later admitted on television that Ian Paisley knew of the plot and this mans involvement from the planning stages, he admitted it was to blame the IRA. Referrance, Peter Taylors television series LOYALISTS. Ian Paisley held leadership rank in three paramilitary groupings. He has been photographed in badged berets of groups whose members have been charged with the murder of catholics. Both leadership of the UVF and UDA admitted me tried to control them.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Pied Piper
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:47 AM

This is good news; next desegregate the schools.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Grab
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:02 AM

Jimmy C, anyone thinking straight should be equally critical of the IRA protecting McCartney's killer as they are of Unionist riots and petrol-bombing police. I don't believe Catholic areas are at particular risk though. That would only be the case if Protestant gang members were avoiding attacking Catholics because they were frightened of being shot. Besides which, Protestant gang members are currently busy enough fighting each other and the police...

Flamenco ted, any views in particular that Mudcat exists to reinforce?

Greg, De Chastelain said that he personally handled and inspected every weapon, every piece of ordnance that was decommissioned. Granted he can't know that this was everything, but it was apparently in line with estimates of what they had. Maybe I'm being gullible, but it sounds legit to me, and very good news. It's just a shame the IRA didn't allow photographic evidence, because that's allowed Unionists a loophole to allege that it wasn't done correctly. Although you can only claim that if you're prepared to call De Chastelain and two priests liars, and I'll be interested to see if Paisley will stick his neck out that far.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:23 AM

Dear Graham
The reason there was no photographic evidence was due to the remark by the D.U.P.'s Sammy Wilson, who said last December it would look great on their Christmas card. Also little Jeffery Donaldson said last December he would witness the surrender if no required. Remarks like that don't help. Hope this gives you some understanding. It boils down to the fact they don't want catholic backsides in seats of government, simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Den
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM

Graham, one of the witnesses was a Catholic priest, the other a Church of Ireland (protestant) minister. The protestant minister has already been dubbed a traitor by Paisley in an interview yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:11 PM

Only a lunatic could not be glad about the decommisioning by IRA
WELL DONE....... Now the Loyalists have two choices
1    Decommision their own weapons
2    Complain that it is all unfair ..... and loose all credibility

How long has this been going on for?.... and why?
Heres hoping

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Den
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM

Actually the protestant minister was Former Methodist President Rev Harold Good. I apologise to Mr. Good for inadvertantly changing his denomination.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

well looking on the bright side...

it might work and you might get peace

and if you don't. well it will be a chance to re-stock with this years models.

since the advent of crack cocaine, there are a lot more guns about. it won't take long to get a new lot.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:15 PM

Maybe I'm just cynical, but..
De Chastelain said that he personally handled and inspected every weapon, every piece of ordnance that was decommissioned. Granted he can't know that this was everything, but it was apparently in line with estimates of what they had.
I heard this described on the news as well. There it was stated that the estimates were those of the security services & others.

Presumably if the IRA had decomissioned noticeably less than the estimate, people would have a good reason to feel unsafe still.
However, they didn't decommission noticeably more than the estimate either.

"OK, we've been told what arms they think we've got, if we get rid of that amount, what are we left with?...."


I can understand De Chastelain not being confident that he has had the whole story.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:31 PM

The war is definitely over. There's no going back.               

Now it's about point scoring. "When two tribes go to war, a point is all that you can score".

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Den
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:36 PM

It'll never be enough will it Nigel? You're starting to sound like Paisley. How are we doing with Loyalists weapons by the way? Did you read Jimmy's post? Does it sound like we are going to be making any inroads into loyalist decommissioning any time soon? Forgive me for pointing this out but I remember very clearly the last time Nationalists were largely unarmed and Loyalists were armed to the teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 02:47 PM

weelittledrummer
Don't like the sound of the area you live in !

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:08 PM

Nigel. The infantory was based on records of shipments delivered since 1982. These came from four countries. Prior to that the amount of AR180's/M1's/M50's was counted in the low hundreds.Colonel Gadaffi sumitted his records of supply to the British early last year. Allowing for training purposes and use, all of the Semtex H was accounted for.I imagine in time the information will become public knowledge.As to the estimates Nigel these were very close, dam close. There were allowances for dumps which could not be located due to the quartermaster death or such like.Regarding the amounts allowed here, this too proved to come in under the governments expections.So have peace of mind that tonight in a disused quarry there is a very heavy brick of setting concrete.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

I am so tired of these apologist bastards. Perhaps you would be satisfied if all the IRA soldiers stood up against a wall and allowed themselves to be killed to prove that the violence is over??????? Listen ...... they decommissioned their arms, they allow their children to be harassed, they have done everything possible to bring peace. The Unionist/Loyalists continue to try and sabotage the process, harass children, burn houses, shoot police officers, and brand as traitor anyone who dares try and end this.

WHAT DOES IT TAKE???????? And when some father goes crazy at the thought of a family member being hurt or killed and reacts, you apologizist assholes will sit smugly and say, "See!"

The Nationalists continue to be the ones trying to change this to a political process. They are showing restraint and bravery. Just look at the response from the other side. And over what??? The thought that Catholics might have some say in where they live,how they live and how they are governed? One man, one vote, and no gerrymandering. Now there is a concept.

Those that equivocate on the issue are idiots. It is time for peace and politics. I find it laughable and hypocritical that the self same folks that decried the bombings and violence committed in the name of Irish freedom, now seek to alibi those that would destroy the chance at equality and peace. My Grandmother, born and raised in Athlone, would say that what you are speaks louder than what you say you are.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:43 PM

I said in my initial post that the attacks on nationalists would increase, we have already experienced that


1 - a little 7 year old boy was hit with a brick because the car he was in was flying the Tyrone flag, after they won the all Ireland football final ????.

and secondly this piece from the B.B.C.


A crude explosive device has been discovered near Magherafelt in County Londonderry.
Army technical experts dealt with the object on the Castledawson Road on Monday night.

A gaelic football club was evacuated during the alert. The device also contained fireworks.

Police have appealed for information and asked people to be vigilant and report any suspicious activity to detectives in Magherafelt.

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I Believe the loyalists will not rest until they do enough damage and create enough fear to get the I.R.A. to re-arm and come out and defend catholic areas again. This is what the unionists want, they have no interest in peace. I fear that if this happens all the soldiers, police and governments in the world will not get the I.R.A. to decommission ever again. You all have to know how these people think (I am not talking about ordinary decent protestants), but I am talking about anti-catholic, anti-irish bigots who have never seen the inside of any church, let alone a protestant one, but they run around calling themselves protestants, all with one thing in mind, to see the last catholic in the 6 counties dead or moved to Dublin.

Sorry it just ain't gonna happen. Enough is enough, there is no going back to the old unionist controlled system. Never again. And if to prevent that means the re-arming of the I.R.A. sometime in the future, then so be it.
They now have a chance for lasting peace, they have a chance to sit down with their neighbours and plan out the future of the 6 counties, if they refuse to meet with duly elected representatives of Sinn-fein and screw it up then they will pay the price, both on the streets and at the ballot box, because I am certain that many protestant cringe to hear these thugs call themselves protestants. Just as many catholics do with some of the specimens that claim to be catholic,
Sinn-Fein members were elected and the unionist party and Mr. Paisley and his ilk have no moral or legal grounds to deny them their place in government. Those days are gone - never to return.

Thanks be to God.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 05 - 12:57 PM

I extremely rarely wish for the death of a person, but Ian Paisley is one of the rare exceptions in that respect. The Unionist leadership is no match to the Nationalist leadership since many years. A Unionist leader with determination, creativity, vision, and the ability to try new paths and convince his followers that at least some of the old 'truths' may be in need of correction is still not in sight. Now the Unionists have to move.

British Victory At Culloden (for a dissident republican view)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:52 AM

Only time will tell, but the reported act of completion of arms decommissioning on the part of the IRA should be welcomed and accepted at face value in order that things can move on.

That includes proactive co-operation with the Police Authorities by all sections of the population. Otherwise innocent people living in Nationalist/Republican areas and Unionist/Loyalist areas will continue to live under the threat of 'justice' as meeted out to the McCartneys and Commanders of this world - people deserve better than that.

In the post-9/11 world there will be no return to the 'armed struggle' everybody knows that.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 06:07 AM

Guest 0543 27th

He was not condoning the violence.
He meant to say "condemn" but got his wordsmixed up.
He did correct himself finally but made a fool of himself.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Keith A of Hertford
How could someone of this standing, he is County Grand Master, make such a mistake ? are you sure ? He would have had to be voted into this position and be highly respected and I would imagine educated. Also he was an ex member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. It would not be an easy mistake to make considering he said it several time throughout the interview. Is this an example of senior Orange Order ?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Ringer
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:22 PM

"How could someone of this standing... make such a mistake? He would have had to be voted into this position and be highly respected and I would imagine educated."

But I wonder if you'd use the same arguments for George W Bush?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Grab
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:33 PM

The protestant minister has already been dubbed a traitor by Paisley in an interview yesterday.

I guess I was wrong then - Paisley can so sink lower than I thought he'd go...

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:24 PM

Well let's see, William the Conqueror sent Norman knights and their armies to conquer Ireland in the 12th Century and it's been going downhill ever since; is that right? [Hence the Fitz's!]
As far as the partition of the north is concerned it was only allowed to happen because of a threat of armed insurrection by Paisley's hero Carter, backed up by a refusal of army officers based at the Curragh to enforce the referendum in which the majority of the Irish people voted for secession.
Now we have a return of the status quo, protestants [see Carter] threatening force of arms to destabilise the ongoing peace process in the Sick Counties.
Excuse me mate but can you move your legs so that I can get out, this is where I came in!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:16 PM

Not quite "Giok"
Collins had determined to carry on secretely supporting the IRA in the North of Ireland after the Treaty was ratified, seeing it as merely "a stepping stone to freedom".
People like Carson (not Carter) and his loyalist volunteers had declared their armed opposition to a law passed by the British Parliament and the Army Officers in the Curragh declared to be willing to disobey the orders of the same body. Why was this not treasonable if Democracy ruled in Britain back then ?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:48 PM

Sorry Beachcomber of course it was Carson not Carter; sorry.
As far as the rebellion by army officers was concerned, of course it was treason, in the same way as the creation of the Sick counties was a negation of democracy, which was apparently a movable feast as far as the British government was concerned.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:28 PM

Actually old sons, if you look at politics in British Isles the Parliament in Westminster have been trying to give away Ireland since the early 1870's. Only the Irish have been too thick to realise it. Ireland has been of no use to the British since day one.

Now let's repraise some stuff

Early days England, France and Spain - one independent, the other at odds with Holy Roman Empire concept of things, the latter holding fast to that ideal. England straddles the trading route for one and is seen as being capable of manipulation by the other. If France wants to provide England with a distraction it invokes the 'Auld Alliance' and drags Scotland into the fray with promises of French support (Never actually turned up - but then the French never intended that it should). Similarly if the Spanish (Single Super Power of the day) wanted to do the same they stirred things up in Ireland - you know that great Irish patriot Chief O'Neill - hell he fled to Spain (Flight of Earls and all that bullshit) - he had no great vision of an independent Ireland the vision he had was of a Spanish controlled and governed Ireland with him as numero uno - no more no less - a typical, complete, opportunistic aristocrat. Now why did Britain bother with it? The answer to that is simple - naval power was important, therefore whoever held Ireland held the weather guage on the British Isles - To the British, Ireland didn't matter as long as no-one else controlled it - the same thing guaranteed Belgium's existence after it was created after the Napoleonic War.

Now onto latter days (Post WW 1), the Irish want independence (They got slightly miffed at the UK's reaction to them rebelling during time of war - which was totally unreasonable of them considering the circumstances and alternatives of the time). The vast majority of the country is agricultural and backward. One small part of the island is industrial and highly competitive, but it is only so in the wake of the first world war if they remain within the 'British' frame of things, so they tell the 'Irish Nationalists' that they will not leave the system that will guarantee them prosperity (perfectly understandable) - they also add that they are prepared to fight. End result partition, Eire bimbles along as a fairly impoverished nation until the UK decides that it wants to join the Common Market. Eire decides that this is a good idea - stumbling block is that the Common Market says that Irish entry (Eire) is dependent on UK entry. Fortunately for Eire, the UK does get accepted for membership, as does Eire, win-win situation for Eire and the Common Market. Eire gets subsidies thrown at it right-left-and-centre (continues to be the case - Celtic Tiger economy my arse) UK becomes traditionally second/third largest contributer to the EU's coffers.

Those brave heros of the IRA succeed in needlessly murdering about 3000 of their supposedly fellow countrymen - they do later apologise for this (OK if you happenned to have successfully lived through the period in which these tossers were 'protecting' you - you can then afford to argue semantics) They finally get fought to a standstill ( Well documented version of Martin McGuniness's appraisal of the situation, not my own) and join the political process. Across in the US a terrorist organisation crashes two planes into a well known New York landmark. Up to now America has never known real terrorism, post-9/11 they do - the administration declares a war on terrorism - their steadfast ally is the United Kingdom - quite natural, we've been living with this shit, sponsored by plastic paddy's in the US for decades. But now that the US has been hit it's serious and worthy of note.

Word to the wise for any 'Nationalist' or 'Republican' there will be no return to the 'armed struggle' as the combined weights of the US, UK and Eire Governments will come crashing down about your ears - and they will roast you. Now the hard-liners in Ulster and in Eire may shrug this off, but the pastey-faced armchair rebels in the US, who for years have provided the wherewithal might be in for one hell of a shock. It's them catching a cold that will give the 'bhoyos' in Ireland one hell of a surprise if they try to return to the good old days of protecting people.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

Across in the US a terrorist organisation crashes two planes into a well known New York landmark. Up to now America has never known real terrorism, post-9/11 they do - the administration declares a war on terrorism - their steadfast ally is the United Kingdom - quite natural, we've been living with this shit, sponsored by plastic paddy's in the US for decades. But now that the US has been hit it's serious and worthy of note.

And the withdrawal of US goodwill left them with no credible support. An analysis that I tend to agree with, strange to think that the US Govt ended up unwittingly playing such a masterstroke by refusing to meet the reps,favoring the McCartney sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:13 AM

Ard M and Divs Sweeney,
Re the loyalist bombing which they hoped would be blamed on IRA.

If Loyalists had the insight to see that a bombing campaign by the IRA would prevent their legitimate aspirations, why did the IRA not realise that their real bombing campaign would have that effect?

(And belated well done to RUC for charging the Loyalist responsible)

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:08 PM

The main aim of the Loyalist bombing campaign in the late 1960s was to bring down the Government of Terence O`Neill, the Loyalists knew that even if they hadn`t achieved their aim, the Unionists with their built-in majority were always going to be in power
The Loyalists were determined not to yield an inch, one man one vote would have meant the end of their control in Derry and other Nationalists towns.
As for your belated congratulations of a corrupt RUC they hadn`t much detective work to do as the UVF scored an own goal with a premature bomb blast and the Gardai in Donegal handed over the evidence.

The IRA campaign wasn`t in vain, what more proof do you need than the whinging from the Loyalist of the IRA being rewarded for the successful outcome of their victory.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:45 PM

Good man Teribus.
But , explain to me how it came about that, if Ireland was "of no use to Britain since day one" as you say, they were prepared to go to such extremes to hold on to it ?
You admit to the strategic value of the island ? Just as a base , do I presume you mean? and nothing else ? But what about the inhabitants?
How do you explain how the British Government exploited the natural resources of the island, our woodlands initially and later our mineral deposits, miniscule though they may have been Did they buy them?
Our agricultural produce was regulated purely for the benefit of the British market, so was our textile manufacturing. Our exports, pathetic though they were , were also ordered by Westminister.
Yes it was rather a mean trick to rebel during time of war, it would have been much more like cricket to have waited until another 50 or 60 thousand troops were available to Mr Churchill to send over in 1919.
Britain made most of the rules of war, not the Irish you know.
The principal reason that the greater part of the island was backward was because the British Government made damn sure that it was.
Agricultural yes, why not,for who can fight a freedom campaign with turnips or spuds? Surprise, surprise the Irish did.
Why was the small North East of the island "industrial and highly competitive" ?
Because the British Government wanted it so.
They would not leave the system that guaranteed them , the loyalist people, and only them , power and privilege. They were largely deluded of course but what they had did seem better than what the nationalists had
"Croppys" lie down and be thankful that you have anything at all. When the "Covananters" asserted their preparedness to fight it was nationalists that they had in their sights, not the Government in Westminister who feared a political backlash and allowed them to frolic with German arms agents.
Obviously you still begrudge us the helping hand that we received through EU membership. You would prefer that we were left, as Britain held us for so long, in poverty and without infra-structure through the south of the country. For instance the only decent harbours we had were those used by the British Navy and a few used to export people and food and import soldiers and British Manufactured Goods only.
Yes we got subsidies from Europe, they were a more far seeing and
fairer partner than had ever been, up to recent times. Without them we could not , from so low a base, come quickly up to standard in economy and socially.
Now , at last, we can hold our heads up in Europe, and in Britain , as equals , not subjugated people, and can begin to pay back those who befriended us in our need.
I will not argue with you as to the amount of killings unless you specify the period to which 3,000 dead refers.
The British Army/Police force amounted to over 40,000 armed men in this country at one time but , it too was "fought to a standstill" but by a force that could never arm more than a thousand or so at any one time.
Yes, it is most likely true that 9/11 in the US brought about a seachange in thinking among many strands of violence all over the world but, not everywhere. Why not give credit to those who finally came to a change in thinking and strategies? I'm fairly sure that the PIRA could have found other sources of finance considering the many "terrorist" organisations that there are worldwide. But you musn't assume that the US war on "terrorism" is merely what it seems . It is now expedient where before it simply didn't matter to them , who bombed what, there were no pipelines in the way.
I wish and hope that you are correct about "no return to the 'armed struggle'. That is now a matter for Northern Loyalists. I wonder , do you have as much information on their "armed struggle" as you think you have about the Nationalist one?
Would you bet that protection would be provided by the PSNI if armed thugs attack nationalist homes, can Nationalists be blamed for feeling a little worried, in certain areas, just now?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:30 PM

Teribus
I am grateful for your line, calling our units hero's which of course they were. There are so many lines of that tripe you wrote full of errors.    Those brave heros of the IRA succeed in needlessly murdering about 3000 of their supposedly fellow countrymen.    The figures you refer to are the total death toll over the 35 year period. Regarding the number you state anyone knows almost a third were killed by British army/police.Not to forget the protestant backed groupings. Before you rant son check your figures, I really don't like to see someone become a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:35 PM

GUEST, Did you say the funding from the states has dried up, no more goodwill ! If only you knew !

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 08:16 PM

Beachcomber,

In response to some of the points made:

Ireland was "of no use to Britain since day one" and I don't really believe that they did go to any great extremes to hold onto it - they did what they had to do to prevent it being used as a base from which attacks could be launched at Wales, England or Scotland.

As to the exploitation of the islands natural resources by the British Government (i.e. post 1707 or 1801). Ireland's natural resources were fairly minimal in extent, simply not worth transporting them to fuel the Industrial Revolution taking place on the mainlands of the British Isles. The cities and industrial centres that sprang up in England, Scotland and Wales were located close to the natural resources required to drive them - little requirement for imports.

Ireland's agricultural produce was regulated purely for the benefit of the British market, no more so than that of England, Scotland and Wales, not surprising as at the time Ireland was part of the UK. Overall Ireland actually profitted from it.

Who provided the investment for the textile industry which was, if memory serves me correct, mainly located in the North and initially relied on water for power (As in the borders of Scotland). It was of very fine quality (Belfast Linnen), but due to technological improvements the mills of Lanarkshire in Scotland and of Lancashire in England caught up and could produce the same quality of cloth cheaper - result decline in the Ulster textile industry - commercial competition, not Government design.

Totally understandable for the Irish to rebel during time of war, the ensuing reaction is equally understandable, but for some reason the Irish believe that the Government should have reacted differently. Personally I believe that the guys in the GPO should have been given a slap on the wrist, told not be such naughty boys and then sent home. Why? because Pearce and co had absolutely no support amongst the population. He led the Easter Week Rising knowing damn well it was going to fail. Had the Government had the courage to treat them like errant children they would have been made a laughingstock the length and breadth of Ireland.

The principal reason that the greater part of the island was backward was because of the stance taken on education by the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. The educational institutions set up by the British in Ireland are amongst the best in Europe - that was not all done post-1921. The standard of education in Northern Ireland is rated as being the best in the UK.

Why was the small North East of the island "industrial and highly competitive" because businessmen from Scotland and the North of England invested in it - not the British Government.

Obviously you still begrudge us the helping hand that we received through EU membership - not in the least - just don't dress up the reasons for Eire's current prosperity and growth on being anything other than situation and circumstance fuelled by EU hand-outs.

It was very true that by 1994 both sides had fought to a stand-still, the only difference was that the British Government could afford to maintain that stand-still - the PIRA could not, they were going nowhere and the population were starting to catch on.

It was true that 9/11 in the US brought about a seachange in thinking among many strands of violence all over the world, not everywhere (RIRA, CIRA, Loyalist Groups), but definitely with regard to the PIRA.

Why not give credit to those who finally came to a change in thinking and strategies? I do.

Under the current circumstances prevailing world wide the PIRA would find it extremely difficult to resume the armed struggle. I suppose they could appeal to FARC but that would only piss the US Authorities off even more.

Would you bet that protection would be provided by the PSNI if armed thugs attack nationalist homes, yes I would, ask the McCartney sisters. Can Nationalists be blamed for feeling a little worried, in certain areas, just now? Not at all, you have members of the PIRA wandering around believing that they are wholely above the law in those Nationalist areas, they can kill and maim whoever at will. Until the population start to back the PSNI that is what they are doomed to.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:52 PM

Teribus,
You are correct in stating that Pearse (not Pearce) and his comrades knew they had no chance of winning. They also knew that they did not have the full support of the irish people.

However they knew that to preserve the dream of a future all Ireland republic they had to change that situation, except they did not change it. It was England that changed it, when the rebels were taken out and shot, not even all at one time, but staggered throughout the weeks following the surrender. One (James Connolly) wounded in the fight and unable to walk was tied to a chair and shot. If the English had " slapped their wrist" maybe things would have been different, but Pearse, Connolly, Clark, McDermott, Ceannt, De Valera and the rest knew by instinct what a cruel, despotic group they were dealing with, they knew they would be executued and they knew that the mood of the Irish people would change from apathy to disgust, resulting in an increaded hatred for England and a genuine passion for a republic. England in her stupidy played the game the way Pearse and the others knew it would. When mighty England executed the teacher. the poet, the shopkeeper etc, that was when the tide turned against them, and it is still turning and will sweep them from our shores one day, and we do not need handouts from Europe or anywhere else to accomplish this. We just leave it to England and their vengeful attitude will guarantee it. What a bunch of hypocrites, at a time when they were at war with Germany for running roughshod over little Belgium and other small nations the mighty English had no hesitation in threatening to do the same by running roughshod over little Ireland. What an arrogant bunch they have proven to be year after year after year.

Before you spout any more dispersions on the I.R.A. I think you had better read some of the writings of Churchill (the greatest brit of all) as he has been referred to, especially when he declared that if foreign soldiers (germans) ever occupied his country he would form an underground army, working in small groups he would kill them when the occasion arose, he would bomb their residences, he would bome their clubs, he would disrupt the railroads, he would blackmail any store that even served them etc, etc, etc. In fact he would do exactly what the i.R.A. has done. The difference is that you would see him as a freedom fighter, but if anybody else would do the same, especially against England they would be thugs, murderers and terrotists. What a nation of bloody hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites.
Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves,br> Of course it's ok if everybody else is a slave. ???>