BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:58 AM

JimmyC,

Being a bit selective re-Churchill. Yes an underground movement would have fought on it would have targeted the occupying forces, as happened with the SOE backed resistence movements in occupied Europe. It would not have deliberately targeted and terrorised the civilian population as the PIRA did. As I have said before if any organisation killed and maimed the number of civilians that the PIRA did and at the same time ruined any chance of economic improvement along with it's accompanying prosperity, then had the gall to tell it was protecting me, I'd have no hesitation in telling them to bugger off and protect someone else. No doubt those with the 'glorious vision' firmly fixed in their mind's eye would view the innocent civilian deaths as just so many eggs required to make the omelette. No nationalist/republican, IRA appologist has ever been able to provide me with the name of one single IRA volunteer who ever gave his life to protect a single civilian - Examples of members of the RUC and British Forces who have done exactly that are well known.

If you bothered to base your arguement on fact instead of emotion you would quickly have seen that from the middle of the 1700's no country has done more to erradicate slavery in this world than the United Kingdom - Fact.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:28 AM

Again wrong, wrong, wrong. I knew a volunteer who in November 1971 remained with his device until the area was cleared as it became unstable and the coop mix began to ooze from the bag it was in. He was killed, no other person was injured in the operation.Regarding the RUC and Brit army. It is also well recorded the number of them that killed civilans, both on and off duty. As for stating an arguement should be based on fact instead of emotion, spend a little more time obtaining factual information before you post. Regarding our victories, was it not your General of land forces Veron Erskine Crum in 1974 branded the PIRA one of the most successful guerilla armies in the world and only a fool would under estimate them. Did he know you ?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:27 AM

Sweeney, not being knowledgeable on these things, how did staying with the device help?
Could he not have helped clear the area instead?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:27 AM

GUEST Divis Sweeney,

I think on a previous thread where this came up I did discount IRA bombers who managed to blow themselves up while making their bombs or transporting them. Had your 'volunteer' and the organisation he represented really wanted to protect civilians they wouldn't have been building the bomb in the first place.

I do not believe that the UK armed forces ever deliberately underestimate any opponent. Your point is what exactly? Fought to a standstill in a situation where at no time there never was ever going to be a military solution or 'victory', the PIRA negotiated a cease-fire in 1994, this briefly broken and resotored, 1998 saw the GFA, 2005 saw the P O'Neill statement renouncing the armed struggle and decommissioning of PIRA weapons. As previously stated the UK and Irish Governments coulld easily have continued to maintain the stalemate - The PIRA could not, especially after 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

I don't fully follow this volunteer/device/own petard story either. Why was he staying with thhis oozing device while other people cleared the area? How did this action help to save civilians, which is what you say was the motivation for his actions?
    And, on the more general question of motivation, surely if your aim in life is not to hurt civilians, why wander round the streets clutching "devices"?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

The British Government underestimated the long haul Iraq is turning out to be, and I see your British troops in Iraq have been behaving in the usual manner, torturing and murdering civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:14 AM

The owner of the public house was serving British soldiers and had received four verbal warnings for his activty. This should have been enough. When the device became unstable, the volunteer remained with it in an attempt to remove the blaster cap after the warning had been ignored by several customers. Another volunteer cleared the area. He did not leave the device and walk away and leave those within the building to it. If the owner of the building had acted in a responsible manner and accepted the verbal warnings this would not have had to take place.Regarding the 1994 ceasefire it was not PIRA that negotiated this ceasefire it was two of John Majors men that came to them. You will never know just how close the British government was to breaking in 1994, many felt at the time there should have been a greater push by PIRA. Well that was then, its a long time ago.Take the events since then as positive.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:23 PM

Not questioning his bravery Sweeney, but all he did was to try to save the people that he and his bomb endangered in the first place.
Do you have a better example?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:53 PM

I am aware you are not questioning his bravery, I only gave this example in answer to the post which stated the British army and RUC where out there saving lives on a daily basis, which we on the ground in West Belfast know otherwise.Individuals within both of these forces were found to be at fault on more than one ocassion.If I was to become involved in the supply of examples I would imagine this would roll on in a tit for tat post for acts of bravery. I cannot and do not expect you to agree with me, but the person I felt to be at fault was the owner of the primises, his own staff had asked him to consider their well being more than once. I do not ask for your understanding as to why British soldiers should not be served in public houses in the North of Ireland, I feel this should speak for it's self.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:56 PM

It wasn't a pub exclusively serving Army personnel. And just like every other pub, where the preferred method of bombing was to throw the device through an open door, it would have killed more than 'just' Army personnel. So the arsehole blew himself up? Good.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:22 PM

GUEST - 01 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

Iraq? Hells teeth laddie early days yet we're going to be there for years yet - and counter to what some other tosser said I've always realised that. But if you do want to assess how well we are doing down in Basra visit BBC 'have your say' - most non-Iraqi contributers trot out the same old leftist line so favoured by the Beeb, Iraqi contributers, especially those in Basra seem rather attached to us and want us to stay for a while - no accountiong for taste Eh??

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:23 PM

GUEST, Oh I got you on a nerve, nice term that, Army Personnel, always like that term, memories come flowing back, all good ones may I add.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:17 AM

Interesting to note that on RTE Radio 1 news at 8am this morning they reported the results of a poll [ presumably in Eire ] the majority of people didn't believe that the IRA had decomissioned ALL their weapons and an even larger majority believed that the IRA were still running organised crime.

My own opinion is the we should accept the IRA word on de-comissioning, trust has got to start somewhere.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 06:12 AM

"I wish they'd done it years ago. It should have been ended a long time ago. It's a great pity the conflict ever began".

Bishop Edward Daly, 27 September 05.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 11:27 PM

Teribus, This is all getting a bit thin, but rom y 0ne of your posts where you state the " No nationalist/republican, IRA appologist has ever been able to provide me with the name of one single IRA volunteer who ever gave his life to protect a single civilian - Examples of members of the RUC and British Forces who have done exactly that are well known.

The I.R.A. lost members while protecting whole communities like the New Lodge, Ardoyne, The Markets and other districts and towns throughout the 6 counties. Without the I.R.A. in places like the Ardoyne or the New Lodge more civilians would have been killed. I come from the New Lodge, where 396 people lost their lives many on account of army action.

So please do not tell me that the IRA terrorized these civilians, if these districts had not been terrorized initially by roaming bands of loyalists, supported by the R.U.C. and later by certain regiments of the army the IRA would not have been rejuvenated in the first place.

If the civilians in these areas had been able to rely on the army and the police to protect them there would have no need for the IRA. But they were not protected and in fact were terrorized by certain regiments that were sent there to protect them - Why was the IRA necessary, well I will give you three exmples that I know of personally:
1 - A loyalist murder squad was able to walk past an army patrol, then a police patrol, enter a cul-de-sac and shoot a cathoic at his own door and after the shooting were able to walk past the same two patrols without being questioned, this is a fact, the victim was a relative of mine.
Does the word collusion mean anything.

2 - One unarmed 16 year old was shot and killed in Trainfield Street (the same street that our late member Annroi came from) ,two soldiers were charged with murder, they were found guilty and 10 years later were still serving in the british army.
3 - In Tyrone the army stopped a car with 2 occupants, one occupant ( Hugh Heron) ran accross the parking lot and was shot repeatedly in the back. the other occupant (John Paddy Mullan) exited the card with his hands up and was riddled where he stood.

These things happened on a daily basis all over the 6 counties, especially in the rural areas away from the T.V reporters and newscasters. And people wonder why the IRA exists.

Statistics show that republicans were responsible for 58.8 % of the deaths, Loyalists for 28.9% and the securuty forces fo 10.1 %.

I accept that although the I.R.A. was the greatest taker of lives there were also many other deaths for which the R.U.C. and in particular the army were responsible, many of which generated sizeable and continuing conrtroversy, such as the 1972 Bloody Sunday shootings and the R.U.C' 1982 " Shoot-to-kill" incidents, in the long run the IRA offered the the only protectiona to nationalist areas and although responsible for many lives they may have actually prevented many more that would surely have been lost if the Loyalists, R.U.C. and the army had a free rein to do whatever they wanted without the threat of facing the IRA.

Also you state that from the mid 1700's no country has done more to eradicate slavery than the U.K. - well they certainly did nothing to eradicate it in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:37 AM

Pure emotion and myth JimmyC plain fact is if the PIRA hadn't started it's campaign of bombing and murder all those of whom you speak would still be alive. Very early on in the conflict when the British Army was protecting the Nationalist areas and disarming and disbanding the B Specials the Official IRA stated that they had no part to play in the conflict. Not good enough for some this caused a rift and PIRA was formed, they carried on the 'struggle' and 'protected' the people of Northern Ireland and murdered/maimed thousands in the process. Can you please answer why the murderers of Mr McCartney have not been brought to justice. Can you please tell me why the relatives of Mrs Jean McConville still have to gaze on the faces of her torturers and murderers every time they walk down the street - both people completely innocent of any crime - I dare say that there are countless other examples.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:51 AM

Well said Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:55 AM

Someone please change the record. Same oul crap over and over again, can you not think of something else ?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 09:56 AM

Divis is right Bill, change the record.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,madman
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:04 AM

Well the ' Div ' part is right.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 10:39 AM

Which record is that, Div? The one that goes and I see your British troops in Iraq have been behaving in the usual manner, torturing and murdering civilians.

Or the one that goes almost a third were killed by British army/police? How can that be when JimmyC later states "Statistics show that republicans were responsible for 58.8 % of the deaths, Loyalists for 28.9% and the securuty forces fo 10.1 %."?

I am begining to dispair over the situation there. Can we not just accept that the IRA have de-commisioned. It seems at times like the republican faction here don't like the de-commisioning as much as the idiots on the loyalist side. What's the problem? Nothing left to fight about so you rake up old coals?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:28 PM

Being brought to their knees and globally humiliated into surrendering their arms has left them in need of face saving. If it has to be done on an internet chat forum so be it. Less messy that way.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 12:34 PM

Our victory speaks for its self. We disbanded volunteerily in July05. The same can't be said for the B Specials, U.D.R. and The R.U.C. Your British government disbanded them for their actions. We will be remembered by historians as hero's one and all.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 01:25 PM

The belief and the desire that peaceful means will suffice is surely what is infinitely precious.

Since you ask, I live near Nottingham supposedly gun crime capital of England. So if things do get desperate, I'm sure our local lads will sort you out some good gear.

Having said that, Nottingham's yearly statistics probably would fit comfortably into a quiet weekend in New York or Chicago. I bet Americans think we are a right gang of of wooftahs, always going on about Northern Ireland. I bet they've shot more people cleaning their gun barrels and practising quick draw than got killed in the entire years of conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:50 PM

Weelittledrummer - exactly.

Teribus re" Very early in the campaign when the british army was protecting those nationalist areas"

The fact is that they were initially greeted with open arms but a short tiem later when they started to show their true colours that was when the IRA had to really be formed. You speak as if thousands of IRA members have been sitting in the wings for years waiting for an excuse. Well I come from a nationalist area and we only heard of the IRA in songs and stories. The fact is the IRA was reformed to protect nationalis areas when the so called defender in the british army failed to do so.
I was born in North Belfast and lived in the same street for 26 years and would not have known where to go to even join the IRA.
For many years the IRA consisted of a few old men who met in pubs and sang rebel songs. I reiterate that if the army had done it's job the IRA would have been unnecessary. They didn't and the catholic/nationalist areas had to be protected. The police wouldn't do it, the army wouldn't do it, the B-Specials were disnbanded and the members just became part of the loyalists gun squads, so tell me who was going to protect thosd areas if not for the IRA. In 1969 we had only one pistol in the whole district and that belonged to an old man who apparently had been in Chigago during prohibition. We had nothing but stones and petrol bombs while the loyalists and the loyalist RUC were armed to the teeth and we got no help from the so called army defenders, no help at all.

So sorry - but the IRA was necessary, without the IRA the death toll would have been much much higher.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:52 PM

Guest -

Who was brought to their knees ?, certainly not the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM

Dave the gnome,

I welcome the decommisioning, and sincerely hope it leads to a better future., however I did not agree with it because I knew it would not be enough, and already we are seeing that. No matter what the IRA and/or Sinn Fein will do now or in the future to secure a lasting peace it will never be enough, because the loyalist do not want that, they want nothing short of a return to at Unionist Dominated Statelet. They do not want to share power with nationalist, in fact they would all be extremely happy if the nationalist/catholic community ceased to exist.
Sinn Fein agreed to the Good Friday Agreement (70% of which is unfulfilled).
They declared a cease-fire - sorry not enough >br> they decommisioned one lot of arms - sorry not enough
they decommisioned a second stockpile of arms , sorry not enough,
they now have international eyewitnesses declaring that massive amounts of arms etc has been put beyond use - sorry not enough.
I believe it is time for the British Government to give the loyalist and the unionist politicians a ultimatum. Get off your butts and work with the nationalists or you will be left out of the equation. It is time for devolution to be implemented now, in short it is time for the british to get tough with the loyalists, they had no problem getting tough with Sinn Fein and demanding this and demanding that, lets see some demands made on the unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:35 PM

Agreed, Jimmy - We all knew it would never be enough for Paisley and his crew. I said as much in my earlier post. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Sticking with the slavery argument from earlier, one country abolishing slavery was never enough - But if no one had started where would we be today?

As to the British Government getting tough with the loyalists. Huh? When it was tough with the republicans who shouted loudest? Why is it right for them to be tough with Loyalists but wrong for them to be tough with Republicans? I agree wholy that it seemed to have no problem fighting the IRA but how does fighting the Loyalist paras make that right? Perhaps it is not only the IRA that have had enough of bloodshed but the British government have eventualy seen sense as well?

Going back to my first post again I start with the line 'It's certainly a tough one' and finish by stating quite clearly it is beyond me. What isn't beyond my limited scope though is the fact that two wrongs do not make a right and continualy raking up old scores will do nothing to help the peace process.

Perhaps like my erstwhile contender, the Curator, said in his last post o the 'cat, Peace has broken out. Perhaps like him we can all stop fighting about who started it...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:46 AM

Can anyone believe Keith wrote this about Teribus Bill .....

His posts are always high on logic and low on emotion.
He never makes personal attacks.
His opponents used to criticise him for bringing facts into the debate.

Now the truth, his posts are always full of points that are without fact.
He always makes personal attacks, well if your Irish.
His opponnents criticise him him bringing a lot of twat into the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:36 AM

here

is a link to the facts debate.

The other 2 points just need you to prove me wrong with examples.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:30 AM

Sutton Index of deaths: Summary of Organisation responsible for the death

Divis is wrong and Jimmy C is right about the percentage of deaths for which the security forces are responsible.

The crosstabs in Sutton's index are also interesting, BTW.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

Great to see the Germans backing up the British, what a difference 60 years makes. And to think we all thought the police and army never killed anyone in Ulster! Thanks for the insight Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

Teribus, Please , please never accuse the British army of killing civilians deliberately.
Did you read my post about the effects of saturation bombing?
Further, I'm certain that any British underground resistance movement that might have been necessary, had Hitler's troops invaded you, would have found it necessary to act against any collaberation by British citizens with such an occupying force. What do you think they might otherwise have done?
You seem to argue that the British Government was not susceptible to Industrial lobbyists at any time in history.There was deliberate supression of Irish based industry, whoever funded it!in favour of that on the "mainland".
You miss my point about exploitation, or ignore it, What gave you the right to act in this manner? Was it Britain's might?
Your provocative language concerning the 1916 Rising shows exactly why British thinking will never understand us. We as Irish people had been all but conquered, remember that, but 1916 made us question our status again and realise that we needed, as a Nation, to regulate our own affairs or we would never again get off those "knees" on which you seem (still)to prefer to see us.
The Roman Catholic authorities did collaborate with the British Government it is true. But that was not the reason for the "backward " state of our majority. In fact many thousands of Irish people were given a fairly decent education , names like DeValera and Ml.Collins come to mind.The unfortunate thing was that they were unable to earn a living as well, hence mass emigration, where? to do what ? you know the answers very well.
Perhaps a mistake was made here?
I do not believe that many here are unaware of the help we have received from the EU. Who is trying to claim that we raised ourselves unaided? I happen to believe, in fact, that with the proper people at the helm, we could have made even better use of the funds

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:40 PM

Now let's see JimmyC, statistically if 10 people from a cross community street had been killed in the 'Troubles' Roughly, 6 would have been killed by the PIRA, 3 by the Loyalists and 1 by the British/Irish Security Forces - Who did you say the PIRA were protecting again?

On the basis described above had the Official IRA line held 60% would still be alive today.

"I come from the New Lodge, where 396 people lost their lives many on account of army action." Now I suppose that depends on what Army action is (According to Divis Sweeney that is going into a public house to buy a drink - the IRA who are protecting you feel that it is entirely reasonable to lob a bomb through the door and kill 6 of their own just to get 1 squaddy) To put it into perspective, in North Belfast from 1969 to 2001, 576 people lost their lives. From 1969 to 2001 the total number of deaths caused by UK forces in N.I., UK & Europe related to the 'troubles' was 363 - JimmyC define "many on account of army action" - the Army must have been awfully busy in North Belfast. Perhaps something like the torture and subsequent death of Mrs Jean McConville, the Army action involved in this particular case was that this poor woman had the human decency and compassion to comfort a dying man, a British Soldier who had been shot by a sniper. Mrs McConville as we now all know was hauled off by members of the PIRA, tortured and murdered, her body was hidden in a secret grave - JimmyC and Divis tell us all how long it took before you bloody heros had the guts to own up to what you had done and provide assistance in recovering the body. Also tell us what august body advised the family not to make too much of her funeral. Heros - hardly Divis, they will go down in history as the murdering scum that they undoubtedly were.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:44 PM

Apologies Beachcomber, I didn't mean to overlook you:

"Teribus, Please , please never accuse the British army of killing civilians deliberately." - I don't believe I ever have.

"Did you read my post about the effects of saturation bombing?" No, should I have done? Where is it? Would you in any event be making reference to the saturation bombing that took place after Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Glasgow, Clydeside, etc.

"Further, I'm certain that any British underground resistance movement that might have been necessary, had Hitler's troops invaded you, would have found it necessary to act against any collaberation by British citizens with such an occupying force. What do you think they might otherwise have done?" Oh I dare say somebody might have had a quiet word, they would not have terrorised the entire population (What was it? Oh yes, 24 bombs set to off within 2 hours in Belfast City Centre - how considerate that all those collaborators got together in such a tidy fashion to allow the IRA to show them a lesson) Oh and the gallant tosser who stayed with his oozing bomb - if memory serves me right that was in response to the landlord of a pub serving British Army personnel - well, I would like to think that the resistance in the UK would have had more savvy, drunken soldiers talk, as a member of the 'resistance' I would lash them up to drink until the cows come home purely for the information that could be coaxed out of them - The Official IRA might have done that, the Provos of course would be too thick to see that opportunity, but would be all too keen and eager to terrorise their own.

"You seem to argue that the British Government was not susceptible to Industrial lobbyists at any time in history." - I don't believe I've argued anything of the sort, besides in this case it would be irrelevant.

"There was deliberate supression of Irish based industry, whoever funded it!in favour of that on the "mainland"." - Examples please. What Irish based industry? Your premise defies commercial logic. I don't believe that Harland & Wolff were suppressed. Set up after independence and funded with EU money, how did Verlome's fair down in Cork - oh yes that's right they went broke.

You miss the point about exploitation - there was damn all to exploit in the first place. Additionally I personally have never exploited Ireland.

My provocative language concerning the 1916 Rising arises from the amount of complete and utter clamp-trap that is spouted about it and the outlawed organisation that suceeded in killing and maiming thousands in the ensuing years.

The Irish have been ruled and conquered for as long as recorded history has acknowledged the existance of the place. There has never been a united Ireland or an "Irish Nation", your own inter-tribal feuds and squabbles ensured that down through the ages the front door to the place has been wide open to any who were organised - case in point look at what is happening now, today - where is the leadership and sense of common good - totally absent, not even considered, you're all still too busy scoring points.

Counter to what you seem to believe, I don't believe that "the British", as a whole, have ever given Ireland a thought, let alone voiced any preference whether or not they wanted to see the Irish on their knees, heads, elbows, or arses. Still I suppose there can't be much worse than total indifference - we probably should have gone along with A. J. P. Taylor back in the early 70's and just left, you guys could have had your civil war and that would have been that.

While "The Roman Catholic authorities" might have collaborated with the British Government, the Roman Catholic clergy did not with regard to education. What was the reason for the "backward " state of your majority?

In fact the many thousands of Irish people were given a fairly decent education, they were the ones lucky enough to attend the schools, colleges and universities set up and established by guess who? DeValera was an American by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:28 AM

04 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM,
I have always considered both Divis and Jimmy C to be Irish (whatever their passports nay state). What makes you think I back up the British if I take sides with one of two Irish posters?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 11:39 AM

Teribius,
I stated that many were killed because of British Army action, and that is the truth. I did not say how many or what percentage in North Belfast. I know for certain that young Duffy, shot be soldiers in Dawsaon stret was not only unarmed but also slightly mentally challenged and these heroes of britain cut him down in broad daylight. I know thatldier his only crime was trying to stop some young neighbours from rioting, the rubber bullet by the way killed him. I know also that Mrs Emma Groves was shot while in her own kitchen making dinner, she opened the window to let out some steam and was shot at close range (with a rubber bullet) by a british soldier who was so shit scared that he fired at anything that moved. this lady, a mother of a large family was left blind.
I know also from first hand that an aged gentleman pleaded with british soldiers not to fire their CS gas near his house because his daughter was asthmatic and in bed sick, The response was "too F....ing bad Paddy, get inside or we will shoot you", the gentleman was my father and the daughter my younger sister who had such a violent reaction to the gas that her heart gave out withing two days. My sister by the way was 26 years old and due to be engaged to a protestant the following week. Her death is not considered as a result of the troubles but never the less she may be alive today if not for the refusal of the army to respect my fathers request..
A big part of the problem was that these young english/scottish/welsh soldiers were not fully trained and were so skittish that nothing was safe, they even shot some cows down in Tyrone because of a noise behind a hedge.
I also know that when the army/police etc received a warning from the IRA that a bomb had been planted, many times the warning was ignored hoping for casualties that could be used for anti-IRA public relations.(maybe that was what Divis was referring to)
I did not try to hide the number killed by the IRA, but I believe that in North Belfast a district that sits between two loyalist communities (Tiger Bay and the Shankill Road) the number that would have been killed there by Loyalists/ Police and the army would have been greater than the 396 I referred to.
Just answer me one thing, what was the nationalist communities supposed to do?, who were they going to turn to for protection ?, certainly not the R.U.C. . definetely not the loyalists squads and definitely not the british army. The IRA was the only alternative, and with the IRA active in North Belfast it helped to lessen the threat from the others.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:14 PM

Let us have a look in the Sutton index of deaths how the deaths the British Army (not including other security forces) is held responsible for are split up:

The British Army is responsible for 278 of the 300odd deaths attributed to 'British security'.

137 of them were civilian
121 were Republican paramilitaries
11 were Loyalist paramilitaries
9 were British security.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

Sutton index crosstabulation for Belfast North

One can look at such tables with the intention to score points. One extreme example:
The IRA alone is responsible for more than twice the number of Civilian deaths in Belfast North than the British army is. One point for Teribus.

But if one looks at the entries for all the Loyalists paramilitaries killing Civilians in North Belfast one gets an impression what JimmyC means when saying that the Nationalist community started looking to the IRA for protection. If night by night houses of Catholics are burned down with the security forces standing by watching one cannot but understand the despair leading to the (renewed) IRA.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

Well, my link doesn't show what I meant it to show. You get what I was talking about by following the link and

(1) selecting geographical location and setting it to 'Belfast North'
(2) setting 'first variable' to 'status summary'
(3) setting 'second variable' to 'organisation' and
(4) clicking on 'produce table'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 01:32 PM

Now let's repraise some stuff

On second thoughts, let's not, eh? On account of how that would be off-topic and irrelevant, not to mention a prime source of a flame-war. As always, the bigger man is the one who can *stop* fighting, not the one who can't see beyond the end of his fists, and that's as true of NI as it is of flame-wars.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

Just heard on the news those horid men in the UDA seem to have a shot dead a family man by the name of Jim Gray in Belfast. Can we depend on all those Mudcatters who hounded the Republican in Belfast who killed a man by the name of McCartney and then said it was the PIRA who killed him. To come out and hound these terrible men in the UDA for shooting this poor man. I am not aware if he has any sisters to go on television, but come on catters show us your voices and rid these nasty men from Northern Ireland. The PSNI said it was the UDA so it must be them. So tradgic.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Paddy no more
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:02 PM

Sidney, me ould son, that's not newsworthy here in Mudcatteer UK. Prods killin' Prods doesn't make it on the big pages. Its like Prods killing Taigs. Who cares, well maybe a bunch of Taigs. I digress. Now, Taigs killin' Prods, that's anawr matter. That's like your Champion's League of news here. Even Taigs killing Taigs is big news. It sort of elevates the dead Taig to dead Prod status...if said dead Prod was killed by a Taig. Know? Anyway stick around ould han and somebody from the Mainland'll explain it till ye clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:26 PM

Actually, most of us did not make much of the McCartney murder.
A nasty little pub brawl.
We took notice when it appeared that Sinn Fein oficials and election candidates were involved in covering up the crime and intimidating witnesses. Such accusations in the run up to an election would make headlines anywhere.
Then we saw the Nationalist people of the Short Strand demonstrating in the streets against SF and PIRA.
Such a thing had never, ever happened before.
Then the Sinn Fein vote in Short Strand collapsed.

As I kept saying in the previous debates, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the incident so remarkable.

No one listened then either.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:03 PM

As I kept saying in the previous debates, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the incident so remarkable.

Add to that the offer to 'deal' with the murderers. There was only one way the balloon was going to go. And it was 'pop.'

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

Sid, what planet are you on? Jim Gray was a champagne lifestyle drug dealer/ racketeer/gangster.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:34 AM

I think Sid is,"actin` the cod"

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:35 AM

So was McCartney, but few on this site seemed to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:54 AM

Mind what?
The killing was only a local news item. Dog bites man.
It was the political dimension that made it so controversial.
As I said, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the case significant.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 06:10 AM

If this was the case, which I doubt, can you tell me for sure that the British Government has never been involved in cover up's ?? Just saw in the BBC Northern Ireland web page that two people arrested concerning this murder have been released without charge.