BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Albaman
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:31 AM

oh the tunnel vision of todays critics! Is there anywhere on this planet where there is not a war happening due to the mis-interpretation of one book!! cath, proddie, hindu, moslem,jew,islamics, unorthodox, orthodox, middle o the roadies, lefties, righties,. if the bloody roman who wrote the book could forsee what the outcome was I.m sure he would have burned it.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:39 AM

Dear Merseybeat
I am usually one of the first to reply to a post which I feel is factually wrong. Sorry I don't have the two weeks required to address your post.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

Picking up on just a couple of comments:

1. The famine.

Teribus,
There is plenty of evidence that, during that time, the English landlords did extract their rents, regardless of the fact that the Irish were starving, and nit picking about which year it started does not alter that.

2. The subject of unsolved murders.

Merseybeat,
Unsolved means that the miscreants are unknown, or that their involvement cannot be proved. You may state as an opinion that you believe the IRA were responsible, but you cannot possibly justify stating it as a fact, since those responsible are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

I am not pro IRA in the least, but I detest the idea of slinging mud as an alternative to debate.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:49 PM

Would you mind breaking this into paragraphs so that I can read it?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Merseybeat
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 06:19 PM

Two strangers are told by the Provo's to go somewhere in the Irish Republic to view illegal weapons on Provo terms, with Provo appointed "independent" witnesses, namely the two clergy (like that's supposed to make a difference?) Who then tell us, "Yes, we think that's all their weapons because they told us so" • McGuinness was quoted as saying just before this wonderful government and media sponsored IRA "miracle" that they (republicans) are not interested in quelling Unionist fears and questions or instilling trust (funny that, and Unionists are supposed to be the people they are making peace with, along with the government) They are only interested in international opinion. Interpretated as; taking the pressure of the Shinners, creating the illusion of peacemakers, a gesture for more concessions (worked a treat – immediate disbanding of the RIR home battalions, release of the Shankill mass murderer – Sean Kelly despite the evidence of his involvement in terrorist activities, dismantling of border posts despite "dissident" threat, closure of police stations, and the biggy – Troops Out Hain threatening water charges if the Unionists don't get it sorted, as if they aren't going bring them in anyway!) and a ploy or tactic to turn the attention onto the "intransigent" Unionists. • Quite possibly, if any weapons were in fact "decommissioned" (we only have the say so of the three amigos, the two clergy and the Provo's who everyday Joe do not know or will ever likely get to know) These weapons were likely to be old ones. Now the crunch, there are 1,800 unsolved murders in Northern Ireland, most of which were carried out by the IRA, bang goes the evidence and any possibility of justice being served and the real victims and their families getting closure. • So why no photo's for which all the governments agreed were needed to move the process forward? People say, sure photos prove nothing, right? Wrong, symbolism in Ireland, north and south is important, very important, it cannot be underestimated. A photo of these "weapons" being "decommissioned" (even IF it wasn't all of them) would be the clearest indication possible for any sceptic including the public at large that it was truly over, it like the words, "our war is over" would not only mean the end of the "Provisional militant movement" but also the beginning of real peace. That's why they won't do it, that's why Unionism will NEVER trust these fuckers. • They haven't given any indication or "promise" that they are disbanding or that they are likely too nor have they shown any remorse, regret or sorrow for the lives and property they have destroyed. "They haven't gone away you know" • They demand that we should be thankful that they are not murdering people and destroying property (on that scale) any more and that the whole thing was Unionism's fault anyhow and that we owe them for stopping. • Gerry very recently said, "They need to reach out to Unionism" that they, "need Unionist consent not assent" They then do the opposite, the appeasement process is a con, a shambles and its hurting Unionism particularly the working classes and those that live in interfaces. So what has this "process" brought us I hear you say? • The consent principle? What good is consent when there is virtually nothing left to consent too? Should we not have had this God given democratic right anyhow? • Articles 2 and 3 dumped? Firstly, aside from the fact that they should not have been there in the first place, they have just been re-written, Dublin still lays claim to our country. • Nationalist/Republican acceptance of Northern Ireland and its place within the United Kingdom? This one's a biggy and is worth looking at in more depth. Nationalism in general have realised that they are not going to force Unionism into a united (sic) Ireland, force failed, the armed struggle failed. The "out breeding theory" proved to be fictitious as confirmed by the last census. So what is their new game I hear you say? Their trick is to make Northern Ireland greener on the ground even though its pink on the political map, which they realise, is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future. What do I mean by this? Well, anything overtly British is systematically being diluted and erased behind the mask of equality and parity of esteem. Bang goes the flying of the Union Flag, the National anthem, emasculate and sterilise the police force and all it's trappings, that which had great success against Irish terrorism, disband the Royal Irish (HS), take away all physical signs of the border, demand the withdrawal of all mainland based troops, demand bi-lingual signage and public sector services, change names (de-Anglicisation) of towns/cities/streets (Londonderry's a classic), demanding the failed Euro (for the wrong reasons – e.g. the illusion we have all the same currency), demands for all-island economic harmonisation (what a can of worms), emasculation of the judiciary, to name but a few. They hide behind the "minority rights" within the state they refuse to recognise when it suits their agenda. And then shout from the roof tops about how a minority Unionist rump is dictating against the majority and its "national self-determination" in the imaginary state they aspire too. In short it is an INSIDIOUS LITTLE PLOT BY IRISH NATIONALIST IRRENTISTS. • On the Northern Ireland football team recently Killyleagh wanted to honour it's sporting hero "King" David Healy by naming a sports field after him. Apparently the Sinn Fein lap dogs, the Stoopies, are kicking up stink because it wouldn't be "neutral" taken to mean, he's a player of a team for a country they will only superficially recognise (this is after a successful and ongoing Football For All Campaign and the game that is universal and cross community). For God's sake they cant even bring themselves to call the country by the correct name (the North? Where's that? The North Pole? Besides geographically speaking that is incorrect as Donegal which is in the "north" is not in the country that they are set out to destroy! Mind you we call Northern Ireland Ulster which although is not totally incorrect since NI is in the province of Ulster it isn't all 9 counties these muppets go on about, its also ironic that the county system they ramble on about so much was introduced to Ireland by an English monarch, Elizabeth I oh the irony) Imagine if, for one minute the Stoopies or the Provo's in suits wanted to name a sports field after say a garlic star (don't start about that all inclusive "sporting" body, the GAA – that's another subject for another day) in a predominately Unionist town but the Unionists (aside from the fact that it's the GAA) refused on "neutrality" grounds, there would be massed protests, visits from American "observers", gangs of rampaging press, all claiming Unionist bigotry and an infringement of Nationalist rights, parity of esteem and equality, etc, etc, the double standards and hypocrisy is astounding. • We also now have a foreign country having its say in UK internal affairs through an expanding, unaccountable executive (starting of course from the Anglo-Irish Agreement and culminating in the 1998 terrorist charter) • We have mass murderers running free, unrepentant and feeling justified for what they have done. • An emasculated police service (who can act against militant Loyalism but not against militant Nationalism) which is powerless and also employs "legal" discrimination tactics in it's recruitment process to the detriment of all us "non-Catholics" (whether you think your one or not) • As mentioned, the disbandment of the proud Royal Irish Regiment Home Service. • The demands for MORE police reforms (i.e. terrorists allowed to join and a minister for policing so they can control it) BEFORE they'll even support and recognise law and order, in this country they only superficially recognise. • On the runs about to be pardoned without justice being served, Enniskillen murderer being one of them (that includes the 3 eco tourists of Columbia and all the other international ops) • They waste money on the promotion and white elephant of the Irish language (I have no problem with it per say, just that its been used and flogged to death by the Provo's as if it's an extension to their "struggle") • Demands for speaking rights for Northern Ireland Westminster MP's in the Irish Dail, further promoting and encouraging interference and increasing the confusion over the constitutional reality of the country. • An unaccountable Parades Commission (a.k.a. PC = Prod Control) that beats Orangeism when Loyalists riot and object AND when Nationalists object and riot, a see who can threaten the most game usually Protestant and Unionist culture and image suffering the greatest. • Attempted destruction of Orange culture. Split and harm the organisation (I know they fell for the bait) they knew Orangeism was the last institution that united Protestants of all classes, creeds and political opinion – historically the cement within Protestantism/Unionism/Loyalism. Break this and they know they are onto a winner and its no accident Portadown was chosen to start it all being the birthplace of Orangeism. A side effect and a bonus for them is bringing "Ulster's loyal citizens" into conflict with the very government and Crown they are loyal too! Jackpot. They may have given up their overt terror campaign (since 9/11) but their covert, low intensity one continues unabated. They grind the Unionist/Loyalist community down until they become defeatist, apathetic (we see the low election turn out within the Unionist community during elections and issues relating to poverty and social deprivation particularly in Protestant working class areas, for which I accept our inept political "leaders" have been too pre-occupied to deal with) They split and intimidate Unionism who also have no support, sympathy or allies in the GB government, certainly not the Irish one nor in international circles. They spilt the Orange Order whilst degrading our community and its legitimate culture and traditions labelling us sectarian, bigoted and stuck in a time warp (this is not helped by our so-called self-styled defenders) They have ethnically cleansed (no other words for it) both past and present, vulnerable working class Protestant areas like Londonderry City side (last post – the Fountain estate) New Barnsley, White City, Tigers Bay, Suffolk, Upper Ardoyne (Glenbyrn and Ardoyne itself) Cluan Place (still standing, just) Lower Oldpark, the border areas and rural areas all around Northern Ireland, the latest victims being the destruction of the Torrens area in North Belfast, all this while the police stand back and watch. They then dress it up as demographic change or "vandals and thugs" tokenism and whataboutery. Also of course is the ongoing campaign of destruction against Orange Halls all around the Province, there was at least two attacks this week and many go unreported or excused. When the tables are turned its labelled "catholic pogroms" ethnic cleansing, bigotry and sectarianism with the help of the pro-Nationalist press in Northern Ireland (vandalism when Prods, Orange Halls and Churches are attacked but sectarianism when "Catholics" Nationalists, GAA halls and Catholic Churches are attacked) Alongside public attacks against Unionism and the big bad "Unionist" terrorists who launch sectarian offensives against the "Catholic" community and of how Unionist political leaders stand idly by not uttering a word (even if they have condemned it, which they always do) and of how the Unionist community stand idly by!! HYPOCRISY. Criminality is a huge issue, it perverts what little democracy we have left in our country. I am CERTAINLY not excusing the scum that give Loyalism a bad name, but the Provo's by FAR have the biggest empire and pose the greatest threat, they own a multi-million pound private empire. We talk about the Provo's getting money off the nethandrals of the Irish-American variety but we forget about their "legit" businesses, the smuggling, the piracy, robberies, etc. Slab and Co. has a lot of fingers in a lot of pie's and it's going to take a lot more than one scoop by the Assets Recovery Agency as noted on last nights news to sort that little problem out. We also say that the banks are watched all over the world…..but are they? What about the banks that they own? If recent media reports are correct (investigating the Northern Bank Heist, also heard about this previous to that report) they were trying to open up a bank in Bulgaria just after it joined the EU. They were also trying to do business deals trying to shift the money. Because Bulgaria is quite a poor country that had joined the EU they have not fully harmonised all their laws and have not got any anti money laundering laws passed yet which is why it was an ideal country for the Provo's to set up a "legit" bank. Even if this turns out to be untrue (stranger things have happened) these cretins have friends and allies under every rock and in every hole on this planet, there are ways and means. Instead of working for a (dis) united Oirland how about promoting and working for a more plural, diverse Northern Ireland with its own regional Northern Irish/Ulster identity within the United Kingdom (whether it's a constitutional monarchy or a republic) with accountable, friendly co-operation with our southern Republic of Ireland neighbours? Now there's a wild suggestion, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 09:29 AM

Well done teribus, one thing they can't hack is the truth and you are both well informed and reasoned. Always more palatable to the reader than an emotion laden hissy fit.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Tirghra
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:55 AM

He writes what he does because he feels he needs to defend the country he served. It's difficult to insult the agency you worked for for years without feeling like you're insulting yourself. So, much cleaner to defend the acts of that institution through well-placed dates. As you've said earlier though, Beachcomber, any argument can be supported as there are enough "facts" out there for all of us. Let him cling to the shreds of the disappearing empire, it's probably all he's got.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 08:43 AM

Ah Dvis, many thanks for that confirmation.
I did not know that Teribus was an "ex-tommie" but reading back on his common usage of barrack room language, I did suspect it. We are well aware of the consequences of the rapine and murder of his ilk in the many ex-member countries of the one-time Empire, not just in Ireland .These, sadly, are probably the "bastards" to which he refers and, many of them did seek to free their country also.
He is well read on this subject, mind you, and obviously has more time on his hands than most. However, he might with benefit, broaden his reading field . Not everything factual about any conflict is written by the supporters of either side. Is it?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:36 AM

Strange how the further you live from Europe the more 'patriotic' you become.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 08:25 AM

Of course we also had a thing often referred to as a famine, as did the rest of Europe which you bastards seem to forget.

I agree, it did affect the rest of Europe, but their goivernments had the decency to make sure their people were fed befor thay EXPOTED FOOD>

1846 - this is a real beauty - Despite the famine, large quantities of grain are exported to pay rents of absentee landlords, - how does that little items grab you ?. With incredible surprise as what was commonly referred to as the great hunger did not manifest itself until 1847 and lasted until 1851.

During which time many Irish who stayed in the country had to build walls just to get food, walls that were unnecessary and useless, One of which can be seen on the Mourne Mountains today. Asking starving people to work before they qualiofied for relief was stupid. There are also roads going nowhere ?



1848 - John Mitchell begins publishing the rebel newspaper : United Irishman". Was this paper banned, if that was when he started, when did he ever complete his task?
The United Irishman is still being published and issued, in some places under a dofferent name but it is still in circulation.

My response was to indicate that although there were no large scale interuptions of tranquility, the notion and dream of a united Ireland still lived on, as long as we have even 2 people to keep the dream alive it will never die.

Resorting to calling us bastards by the way says a lot about your thoughts on the Irish.

Slan agat

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 05 - 04:42 AM

Jimmy C - 07 Oct 05 - 06:26 PM

Lets have have a look at JimmyC's Irish Rebellions between 1798 and 1916:

Just because there as no major outbreak of fighting does not mean the nationalist spirit was dead.

Hey Jimmy we're talking rebellion here not just thinking about it - if such is the qualification somebody getting just slightly miffed and giving themselves a damn good talking to on his way back from the chip shop of a Thursday night would count as a significant political statement.

1803 - Robert Emmet marches towards Dublin Caste with about 100 followers. - The walk home from the chip shop revisited. Came to nothing, signified nothing, meant nothing, achieved nothing.

The same year (1803) Michael Dwyer surrende4ec and was transported to Australia, - Probably just wanted a free ticket out of the damn province how many of his lads did he take with him, obviously not enough. Dwyer and his men had been fighting a meaningless and ineffectual guerilla war in the Wicklow mountains since 1798 that no other bastard happened to notice, until even he reached such a high water point of boredom that he gave himself up.

1819, Legislation is drafted to curb Rural Secret Societies ?. - Any such legislation put into force? No trouble as such but still organizing.

1823 - Daniel O'Donnell forms the Catholic Association to agitate for emancipation ? so much for your anti-slavery theory. Should have stuck to his concerts for old ladies, he obviously stuck to that guaranteed recipe for success later in his career. Acknowledged fact, world wide - the United Kingdom led the anti-slavery movement and the fact that that had fuck all to do with Catholic Emancipation did not make it a "bad thing".

1825- The House of Lords rejects a Bill granting Catholic Emancipation ?, ( see above note on slavery). Well in all fairness anything Daniel O'Donell was infavour of, the natural reaction is to oppose so what the hell, they were probably right in doing so.

1828 - Daniel O'Donnell wins the Clare by-electin but cannot enter Parliament because of the sweater some of his most ardent fans insist that he wears, this was overturned the following year, on the condition that he wear an overcoat.

Of course we also had a thing often referred to as a famine, as did the rest of Europe which you bastards seem to forget.

1846 - this is a real beauty - Despite the famine, large quantities of grain are exported to pay rents of absentee landlords, - how does that little items grab you ?. With incredible surprise as what was commonly referred to as the great hunger did not manifest itself until 1847 and lasted until 1851.

1848 - John Mitchell begins publishing the rebel newspaper : United Irishman". Was this paper banned, if that was when he started, when did he ever complete his task?

Also in 1848 the Government passes the Treason-Felony Act to deal with the Young Irelander movement , now aht do you think they were all about ?. Fuck knows, like the bulk of the population of Ireland, never heard of them, they therefore must have been pretty significant in the minds of republican Irishmen

1856 - Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa founds the Phoenix Society - to do what sell insurance? Certainly not cost the goverment of the day a wink of sleep.

1858 James Stephens founds " The Irish Republican Brotrherhood". As those who wished to join the "Pheonix Society" did not generally know how to spell Pheonix. Meanwhile the government of the day still sleeps soundly.

1859 - The Fenians, an Irish-American group similar to the I.R.B is founded in New York. They thought that they had better do it there as no fucker was paying the blindest bit of notice back across the other side of the Atlantic.

1860 The Irish Volunteers of teh Fighting 69th refuse to parade before the Prince of Wales, who actually could not have cared less being completely brassed off with the whole agenda. All he wanted to do was to retire to a well known hostelry and have a good time. By the way what were those Irish Volunteers volunteeering for in 1860 - the country being at peace at the time they were probably a bunch of idle wasters - big on theatricals short on action - hence the nom-de-guerre "The Fightin' 69th" in 1860 their only possible adversaries would have been themselves.

1866, Some 800 fenians invade Canada, occupoy Fort Erie (unoccupied at the time - typical sort of move for these fucking heroes) and retret across the border after a battle at Lime Ridgeway (which they lost). At the time, where the might of Vicorias Empire was approaching it's height, 67% of the personnel serving in the British Army were Roman Catholic Irishmen who showed no desire whatsoever to alter the staus quo.

1867 The Fenian rising planned for March is delayed (due to leaves on the tracks?), but then you know how infuriating it is to spend weeks planning and plotting and then have it all come to naught. The arrest of the leaders in Manchester lead to an attempted rescue of Tomas Kelly, in which a policeman was killed, three irishmen - Allen, Larkin and O'Brien - The Manchester Martyrs (poor dears, how sweet) paid the price for this - So did the policeman you tosser.

1869 ' The Amnesty Association is formed after reports that fenian prisoners were being persecuted in prison - Ah well, how terrible, too bad, never mind.

"Teribus, I could go on and on but I hope the above will dispel ther notion that republicianism died after 1798 and was not reborn until 1916." I bet you could, but then I never suggested that.

Throughout the length and breadth of the world I dare say you could find, "one act of republicianism, either by word or deed in every year after '98 and many more in the years previous." All of which amounted to absolutely nothing.

"The idea of one (u)nited Ireland did not start in 1798 and has not ended to date. Pax Britannia my arse." On review I suppose the phrase "Croppy Lie Down" would reflect the state of affairs more accurately - not many historians would agree with you - you don't seem to be able to tell your arse from your elbow. As stated in my previous posting "Pax Britannia" was a clearly defined time in the history of the world that any historian could identify - you can refuse to recognise this all you want, absolutely no skin of my nose.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 06:26 PM

Teribus re: Really? Irish Rebellions between 1798 and 1916 please?",

Just because there as no major outbreak of fighting does not mean the nationalist spirit was dead. It raised its head on quite a few occasions and will continue to do so. 1803 - Robert Emmet marches towards Dublin Caste with about 100 followers. - insignifican number I know but it happened. The same year (1803) Michael Dwyer surrende4ec and was transported to Australia, Dwyer and his men had been fighting a guerilla war in thw Wicklow mountains since 1798. again minor skirmishes but still fighting.
1819, Legislation is drafted to curb Rural Secret Societies ?. - no trouble as such but still organizing.
1823 - Daniel O'Connell forms the Catholic Association to agitate for emancipation ? so much for your anti-slavery theory.
1825- The House of Lords rejects a Bill granting Catholic Emancipation ?, ( see above note on slavery). 1828 - Daniel O'Connell wins the Clare by-electin but cannot enter Parliament because of the "Oath of Supremacy", this was overturned the following year, wasn't tat nice of them , to allow a duly elected official to take his seat, even though he was a catholic. Of course he was informed that as the repeal of the Act was not retrospective, he would have to run in another election, he won, unopposed.
Of course we also had a thing often referred to as a famine, that sort of put any thoughts of open rebellion on the back burner for a while.
1846 - this is a real beauty - Despite the famine, large quantities of grain are exported to pay rents of absentee landlords, - how does that little items grab you ?.
1848 - John Mitchell begins publishing the rebel newspaper : United Irishman". Also in 1848 the Government passes the Treason-Felony Act to deal with the Young Irelander movement , now aht do you think they were all about ?. 1856 - Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa founds the Phoenix Society
1858 James Stephens founds " The Irish Republican Brotrherhood".
1859 - The Fenians, an Irish-American group similar to the I.R.B is founded in New York
1860 The Irish Volunteers of teh Fighting 69th refuse to parade before the Prince of Wales, small act but still defiant.
1866, Some 800 fenians invade Canada, occupoy Fort Erie and retret across the border after a battle at Lime Ridgeway. again small but defiant
1867 The Fenian rising planned for March is betrayed, the arrest of the leaders in Manchester lead to an attempted rescue of Tomas Kelly, in which a policeman was killed, three irishmen - Allen, Larkin and O'Brien - The Manchester Martyrs paid the price for this.
1869 ' The Amnesty Association is formed after reports that fenian prisoners were being persecuted in prison. Teribus, I could go on and on but I hope the above will dispel ther notion that republicianism died after 1798 and was not reborn until 1916. I guarantee that with sufficient time and effort one could probably find at least one act of republicianism, either by word or deed in every year after '98 and many more in the years previous. The idea of one inited Ireland did not start in 1798 and has not ended to date. Pax Britannia my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Dvis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 05:11 PM

Beachcomber, Bill is an ex british soldier what do you expect from him ?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 04:01 PM

Teribus,
My God, when it comes to rants....!
I have never read such twisted logic in my life.
Your determined argument however, becomes quite understandable when one reads such self-righteous slaverings of Imperialistic wrath.
Wake up lad and smell the shamrock, your Empire is long gone . We put a little hole in it in 1922 and it has been unravelling ever since.
I do not believe that your (now apparent) racism is in any way typical of the more modern thinking Britisher, in fact, your latest post might more suitably have been added to that earlier one about "Anti-Irishness among Mudcatters"
Insulting remarks are not an argument as far as I am concerned and , in fact, only go to demonstrate your inherent attitude towards all things Irish. I could throw insults around too if I so wished, but, to what end?
Your opinion on the various points raised is just that, an opinion. We are all convinced of the validity of our own and so will never allow ourselves to be persuaded otherwise.
There is plenty of proof throughout history to back up just about any theory , just be open minded about it.
Now, good lad , go and look at those matters from our perspective for a change.
The only emotion I feel Teribus is one of pity , you really must (in the study of history sense) get out more.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,SLR V AR180
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 12:01 PM

Come on Bill loosen up.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 09:00 AM

Aw, to hell with it beachcomber, just for the exercise and for the benefit of GUEST 07 Oct 05 - 04:34 AM:

"Rules of Engagement" apply, no such thing applies to the terrorists they are fighting. Do accidents happen? Are mistakes made? Of course they do - that unfortunately is the nature of life.

Strategic bombing of civilian targets was something introduced to modern warfare in the First World War by the Germans, they continued this during the Second World War - unfortunately for them and their axis partners the allies were just so much better at it. To such an extent that, on viewing the bomb damage to German cities in the immediate aftermath of WWII, Joseph Stalin, darling of the socialist left, put on ice any plan he had to keep the Red Army rolling westward - at least until such time as he had acquired a strategic air force capability.

Please provide examples of places where the "British" terrorised civilians in the main. Please provide the list of countries that "Britain" invaded - you obviously think that it is impressive, I think compared to other Empire building nations you will find the list rather short. The "British Empire" was something founded on trade, consent and mutual protection "in the main".

You ask, "Why wasn't the Irish Woollens Industry, for instance,fostered under British Rule?" Then provide the answer, "Because it might have interfered with the British one." Somehow I find your logic a bit at fault here, if this Irish Woollens Industry was flourishing under British Rule wouldn't it be in effect part and parcel of the British Woollens Industry? The Linnen and Woollen industry based in Ireland declined because they did not, or could not, keep pace with advances in technology at the time and lost out to competition - not by any great plan of any British Government of the day. The Irish woollen industry and those based in the Scottish Borders did survive by opting to produce quality top end garments. I see that you are perfectly willing to accept, and quote, commercial reasons for the collapse of Verholme Shipyard in Cork yet trot out the line that the Irish Woollen Industry went under because of the machinations of the British Government - inconsistent and utterly ridiculous.

Oh dear!!! "Our people were exploited , that is beyond question." Agreed, but you will find no more so than anyone else living in Europe at that time, and a damn sight less than others living elsewhere in the world, not necessarily under the rule of Europeans.

Eh Beachcomber - back in those Victorian times, "people" tended not to have a hell of a lot to say in the matter, their rulers however did. The British Empire of that time was made up of Dominions, Colonies, Crown Territories, Protectorates and later Mandated Territories. Go and look up what those terms mean and how the individual countries actually came to be part of the British Empire.

As for this rant - "It was you who made ONE of this island for us, you who united us against your rule , including the very people who had been sent here by you to do your dirty work, because of the discriminatory laws you tried to enforce, it was you then also who divided us, with your cunning and your patronage of the minority to give them a feeling of being the chosen ones. You convinced them that they would fare better by throwing in with Britain. In the final analysis , did they? Are they any better off now ?.Our country could , as easily, have reached the same economic and social standard without your interference." What I personally did all that????

"Pax Britannia" a period recognised by historians the world over as beginning in 1815 at the end of the Napoleonic Wars until the outbreak of the First World War in 1914. It did exist Beachcomber, it did exist, it saw the ending of the slave trade, it saw the development of world trade and commerce, it saw the erradication of piracy, amazing breakthroughs and discoveries in the fields of technology, science and medicine - oh it did exist Beachcomber.

You passionately state that - "this country(Ireland) has never been fully conquered. .....Though often invaded,it never was, because, in every time, there was always some few who refused to accept domination by force of arms, and were able to steel others to join them in rebellion." Really? Irish Rebellions between 1798 and 1916 please?

In 1975 I can remember a Dutchman having been ridiculed by a self-proclaimed Brigade Sergeant in the IRA (which means of course that he was nothing of the sort) along the lines you cling to in your post. The gist of the message was - "We've never been conquered, whereas you bloody Dutch, Hitler went through you lot in seven days" To which the Dutchman replied, "That in assigning countries to races, had God given Ireland to the Dutch - it would now be one of the world's most advanced, wealthiest, liberal, progressive countries. If on the other hand God had given Holland to the Irish, it would have disappeared beneath the waters of the North Sea centuries ago."

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: polaitaly
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 05:34 AM

On British governement and Protestants and Catholics in North Ireland
-as Bob Dylan said once
" The South politician preaches to the poor white man
-You've got more than the Blacks, don't complain!
You're better then them, you've been
born with white skin!- They explain
And the Negro's name
it's used , it is plain
for the politician's game
and the poor white remain
on the caboose of the train
but it ain't him to blame
he's only a pawn in their game"

sorry for the spelling

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 05 - 04:34 AM

How right you are Teribus, all of that is pure myth, you gently raised us from the slime, and sent us to heaven in your own good time,
whack fol the diddle, up yer Khyber ,eh?.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 10:26 PM

To GUEST,beachcomber - 06 Oct 05 - 05:33 PM

All I can honestly say having read your posting - pure emotion and myth, which is common here on the 'cat. I can't even be bothered to rip your proposition to shreds.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:33 PM

Teribus,
I don't believe that you could even conceive of a British soldier killing a civilian deliberately, could you?
If you are arguing that the bombings you mention "Guernica, Warsaw et al" were justification for British forces to do their worst to Dresden, Berlin even Balbriggan and Cork, and many other places, then I will argue no longer. What would be the point?
Terrorising people , civilians in the main, was something that British invaders taught to the world, that tactic certainly was not invented by the IRA or PIRA.
That "drinks- on- me-boyoes" trick was one of Collins' right enough, maybe we did invent that one !
Why wasn't the Irish Woollens Industry, for instance,fostered under British Rule? Because it might have interfered with the British one.
Of course Harland & Wolfe were not supressed, how ridiculous that would have been, it was in the "right" place and at the "right" time to "demonstrate" the benefits of the Union.
Yes Verholme Shipyard did close many years ago but due to worldwide slump in shipbuilding generally. Where are all the massive British Shipyards now ? even H & W could hardly be said to be in perfect health anymore.
Our people were exploited , that is beyond question.
You, and people who think like you, will never be able to understand why, back in those Victorian times, people did not want to be ruled by a foreign government. It was you who made ONE of this island for us, you who united us against your rule , including the very people who had been sent here by you to do your dirty work, because of the discriminatory laws you tried to enforce, it was you then also who divided us, with your cunning and your patronage of the minority to give them a feeling of being the chosen ones. You convinced them that they would fare better by throwing in with Britain. In the final analysis , did they? Are they any better off now ?.Our country could , as easily, have reached the same economic and social standard without your interference.
Contrary to your assertion that Ireland had been "ruled and conquered for as long as recorded history..." this country has never been fully conquered. That is the root cause of our argument.Though often invaded,it never was, because, in every time, there was always some few who refused to accept domination by force of arms, and were able to steel others to join them in rebellion, and, there always will be.
The British , many times, thought that they had conquered us, but, as you must admit now, it was all self- delusion. A state in which, even though you do not seem to realise, you are still wallowing.
There is no "Pax Brtiania", never was.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Funky Prentice
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 03:35 PM

Come on guys, these men of Ireland are hero's throughout the world. Salute, admire and praise.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 03:19 PM

One thing Jim Gray and Ronnie Barker won`t be doing again, is Porridge.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 09:53 AM

Good timing or coincidence?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 06:39 AM

I can tell you for sure that every government in the world has been involved in cover ups.

I can also tell you that if officials and candidates of a major politcal party are implicated in a conspiracy to cover up a murder, especially if during an election campaign, people will inevitably want to discuss it.

The fact that Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries often mrder each other is not all that interesting to outsiders. Sorry, but that is how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 06:10 AM

If this was the case, which I doubt, can you tell me for sure that the British Government has never been involved in cover up's ?? Just saw in the BBC Northern Ireland web page that two people arrested concerning this murder have been released without charge.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:54 AM

Mind what?
The killing was only a local news item. Dog bites man.
It was the political dimension that made it so controversial.
As I said, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the case significant.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:35 AM

So was McCartney, but few on this site seemed to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:34 AM

I think Sid is,"actin` the cod"

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

Sid, what planet are you on? Jim Gray was a champagne lifestyle drug dealer/ racketeer/gangster.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:03 PM

As I kept saying in the previous debates, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the incident so remarkable.

Add to that the offer to 'deal' with the murderers. There was only one way the balloon was going to go. And it was 'pop.'

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:26 PM

Actually, most of us did not make much of the McCartney murder.
A nasty little pub brawl.
We took notice when it appeared that Sinn Fein oficials and election candidates were involved in covering up the crime and intimidating witnesses. Such accusations in the run up to an election would make headlines anywhere.
Then we saw the Nationalist people of the Short Strand demonstrating in the streets against SF and PIRA.
Such a thing had never, ever happened before.
Then the Sinn Fein vote in Short Strand collapsed.

As I kept saying in the previous debates, it was not the killing but the cover up that made the incident so remarkable.

No one listened then either.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Paddy no more
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 05:02 PM

Sidney, me ould son, that's not newsworthy here in Mudcatteer UK. Prods killin' Prods doesn't make it on the big pages. Its like Prods killing Taigs. Who cares, well maybe a bunch of Taigs. I digress. Now, Taigs killin' Prods, that's anawr matter. That's like your Champion's League of news here. Even Taigs killing Taigs is big news. It sort of elevates the dead Taig to dead Prod status...if said dead Prod was killed by a Taig. Know? Anyway stick around ould han and somebody from the Mainland'll explain it till ye clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Sid the Havana King
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

Just heard on the news those horid men in the UDA seem to have a shot dead a family man by the name of Jim Gray in Belfast. Can we depend on all those Mudcatters who hounded the Republican in Belfast who killed a man by the name of McCartney and then said it was the PIRA who killed him. To come out and hound these terrible men in the UDA for shooting this poor man. I am not aware if he has any sisters to go on television, but come on catters show us your voices and rid these nasty men from Northern Ireland. The PSNI said it was the UDA so it must be them. So tradgic.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 01:32 PM

Now let's repraise some stuff

On second thoughts, let's not, eh? On account of how that would be off-topic and irrelevant, not to mention a prime source of a flame-war. As always, the bigger man is the one who can *stop* fighting, not the one who can't see beyond the end of his fists, and that's as true of NI as it is of flame-wars.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:49 PM

Well, my link doesn't show what I meant it to show. You get what I was talking about by following the link and

(1) selecting geographical location and setting it to 'Belfast North'
(2) setting 'first variable' to 'status summary'
(3) setting 'second variable' to 'organisation' and
(4) clicking on 'produce table'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:37 PM

Sutton index crosstabulation for Belfast North

One can look at such tables with the intention to score points. One extreme example:
The IRA alone is responsible for more than twice the number of Civilian deaths in Belfast North than the British army is. One point for Teribus.

But if one looks at the entries for all the Loyalists paramilitaries killing Civilians in North Belfast one gets an impression what JimmyC means when saying that the Nationalist community started looking to the IRA for protection. If night by night houses of Catholics are burned down with the security forces standing by watching one cannot but understand the despair leading to the (renewed) IRA.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 12:14 PM

Let us have a look in the Sutton index of deaths how the deaths the British Army (not including other security forces) is held responsible for are split up:

The British Army is responsible for 278 of the 300odd deaths attributed to 'British security'.

137 of them were civilian
121 were Republican paramilitaries
11 were Loyalist paramilitaries
9 were British security.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 11:39 AM

Teribius,
I stated that many were killed because of British Army action, and that is the truth. I did not say how many or what percentage in North Belfast. I know for certain that young Duffy, shot be soldiers in Dawsaon stret was not only unarmed but also slightly mentally challenged and these heroes of britain cut him down in broad daylight. I know thatldier his only crime was trying to stop some young neighbours from rioting, the rubber bullet by the way killed him. I know also that Mrs Emma Groves was shot while in her own kitchen making dinner, she opened the window to let out some steam and was shot at close range (with a rubber bullet) by a british soldier who was so shit scared that he fired at anything that moved. this lady, a mother of a large family was left blind.
I know also from first hand that an aged gentleman pleaded with british soldiers not to fire their CS gas near his house because his daughter was asthmatic and in bed sick, The response was "too F....ing bad Paddy, get inside or we will shoot you", the gentleman was my father and the daughter my younger sister who had such a violent reaction to the gas that her heart gave out withing two days. My sister by the way was 26 years old and due to be engaged to a protestant the following week. Her death is not considered as a result of the troubles but never the less she may be alive today if not for the refusal of the army to respect my fathers request..
A big part of the problem was that these young english/scottish/welsh soldiers were not fully trained and were so skittish that nothing was safe, they even shot some cows down in Tyrone because of a noise behind a hedge.
I also know that when the army/police etc received a warning from the IRA that a bomb had been planted, many times the warning was ignored hoping for casualties that could be used for anti-IRA public relations.(maybe that was what Divis was referring to)
I did not try to hide the number killed by the IRA, but I believe that in North Belfast a district that sits between two loyalist communities (Tiger Bay and the Shankill Road) the number that would have been killed there by Loyalists/ Police and the army would have been greater than the 396 I referred to.
Just answer me one thing, what was the nationalist communities supposed to do?, who were they going to turn to for protection ?, certainly not the R.U.C. . definetely not the loyalists squads and definitely not the british army. The IRA was the only alternative, and with the IRA active in North Belfast it helped to lessen the threat from the others.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 07:28 AM

04 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM,
I have always considered both Divis and Jimmy C to be Irish (whatever their passports nay state). What makes you think I back up the British if I take sides with one of two Irish posters?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:44 PM

Apologies Beachcomber, I didn't mean to overlook you:

"Teribus, Please , please never accuse the British army of killing civilians deliberately." - I don't believe I ever have.

"Did you read my post about the effects of saturation bombing?" No, should I have done? Where is it? Would you in any event be making reference to the saturation bombing that took place after Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Glasgow, Clydeside, etc.

"Further, I'm certain that any British underground resistance movement that might have been necessary, had Hitler's troops invaded you, would have found it necessary to act against any collaberation by British citizens with such an occupying force. What do you think they might otherwise have done?" Oh I dare say somebody might have had a quiet word, they would not have terrorised the entire population (What was it? Oh yes, 24 bombs set to off within 2 hours in Belfast City Centre - how considerate that all those collaborators got together in such a tidy fashion to allow the IRA to show them a lesson) Oh and the gallant tosser who stayed with his oozing bomb - if memory serves me right that was in response to the landlord of a pub serving British Army personnel - well, I would like to think that the resistance in the UK would have had more savvy, drunken soldiers talk, as a member of the 'resistance' I would lash them up to drink until the cows come home purely for the information that could be coaxed out of them - The Official IRA might have done that, the Provos of course would be too thick to see that opportunity, but would be all too keen and eager to terrorise their own.

"You seem to argue that the British Government was not susceptible to Industrial lobbyists at any time in history." - I don't believe I've argued anything of the sort, besides in this case it would be irrelevant.

"There was deliberate supression of Irish based industry, whoever funded it!in favour of that on the "mainland"." - Examples please. What Irish based industry? Your premise defies commercial logic. I don't believe that Harland & Wolff were suppressed. Set up after independence and funded with EU money, how did Verlome's fair down in Cork - oh yes that's right they went broke.

You miss the point about exploitation - there was damn all to exploit in the first place. Additionally I personally have never exploited Ireland.

My provocative language concerning the 1916 Rising arises from the amount of complete and utter clamp-trap that is spouted about it and the outlawed organisation that suceeded in killing and maiming thousands in the ensuing years.

The Irish have been ruled and conquered for as long as recorded history has acknowledged the existance of the place. There has never been a united Ireland or an "Irish Nation", your own inter-tribal feuds and squabbles ensured that down through the ages the front door to the place has been wide open to any who were organised - case in point look at what is happening now, today - where is the leadership and sense of common good - totally absent, not even considered, you're all still too busy scoring points.

Counter to what you seem to believe, I don't believe that "the British", as a whole, have ever given Ireland a thought, let alone voiced any preference whether or not they wanted to see the Irish on their knees, heads, elbows, or arses. Still I suppose there can't be much worse than total indifference - we probably should have gone along with A. J. P. Taylor back in the early 70's and just left, you guys could have had your civil war and that would have been that.

While "The Roman Catholic authorities" might have collaborated with the British Government, the Roman Catholic clergy did not with regard to education. What was the reason for the "backward " state of your majority?

In fact the many thousands of Irish people were given a fairly decent education, they were the ones lucky enough to attend the schools, colleges and universities set up and established by guess who? DeValera was an American by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 06:40 PM

Now let's see JimmyC, statistically if 10 people from a cross community street had been killed in the 'Troubles' Roughly, 6 would have been killed by the PIRA, 3 by the Loyalists and 1 by the British/Irish Security Forces - Who did you say the PIRA were protecting again?

On the basis described above had the Official IRA line held 60% would still be alive today.

"I come from the New Lodge, where 396 people lost their lives many on account of army action." Now I suppose that depends on what Army action is (According to Divis Sweeney that is going into a public house to buy a drink - the IRA who are protecting you feel that it is entirely reasonable to lob a bomb through the door and kill 6 of their own just to get 1 squaddy) To put it into perspective, in North Belfast from 1969 to 2001, 576 people lost their lives. From 1969 to 2001 the total number of deaths caused by UK forces in N.I., UK & Europe related to the 'troubles' was 363 - JimmyC define "many on account of army action" - the Army must have been awfully busy in North Belfast. Perhaps something like the torture and subsequent death of Mrs Jean McConville, the Army action involved in this particular case was that this poor woman had the human decency and compassion to comfort a dying man, a British Soldier who had been shot by a sniper. Mrs McConville as we now all know was hauled off by members of the PIRA, tortured and murdered, her body was hidden in a secret grave - JimmyC and Divis tell us all how long it took before you bloody heros had the guts to own up to what you had done and provide assistance in recovering the body. Also tell us what august body advised the family not to make too much of her funeral. Heros - hardly Divis, they will go down in history as the murdering scum that they undoubtedly were.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:39 PM

Teribus, Please , please never accuse the British army of killing civilians deliberately.
Did you read my post about the effects of saturation bombing?
Further, I'm certain that any British underground resistance movement that might have been necessary, had Hitler's troops invaded you, would have found it necessary to act against any collaberation by British citizens with such an occupying force. What do you think they might otherwise have done?
You seem to argue that the British Government was not susceptible to Industrial lobbyists at any time in history.There was deliberate supression of Irish based industry, whoever funded it!in favour of that on the "mainland".
You miss my point about exploitation, or ignore it, What gave you the right to act in this manner? Was it Britain's might?
Your provocative language concerning the 1916 Rising shows exactly why British thinking will never understand us. We as Irish people had been all but conquered, remember that, but 1916 made us question our status again and realise that we needed, as a Nation, to regulate our own affairs or we would never again get off those "knees" on which you seem (still)to prefer to see us.
The Roman Catholic authorities did collaborate with the British Government it is true. But that was not the reason for the "backward " state of our majority. In fact many thousands of Irish people were given a fairly decent education , names like DeValera and Ml.Collins come to mind.The unfortunate thing was that they were unable to earn a living as well, hence mass emigration, where? to do what ? you know the answers very well.
Perhaps a mistake was made here?
I do not believe that many here are unaware of the help we have received from the EU. Who is trying to claim that we raised ourselves unaided? I happen to believe, in fact, that with the proper people at the helm, we could have made even better use of the funds

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 12:00 PM

Great to see the Germans backing up the British, what a difference 60 years makes. And to think we all thought the police and army never killed anyone in Ulster! Thanks for the insight Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 11:30 AM

Sutton Index of deaths: Summary of Organisation responsible for the death

Divis is wrong and Jimmy C is right about the percentage of deaths for which the security forces are responsible.

The crosstabs in Sutton's index are also interesting, BTW.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 07:36 AM

here

is a link to the facts debate.

The other 2 points just need you to prove me wrong with examples.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 04:46 AM

Can anyone believe Keith wrote this about Teribus Bill .....

His posts are always high on logic and low on emotion.
He never makes personal attacks.
His opponents used to criticise him for bringing facts into the debate.

Now the truth, his posts are always full of points that are without fact.
He always makes personal attacks, well if your Irish.
His opponnents criticise him him bringing a lot of twat into the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome sans biscuit
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:35 PM

Agreed, Jimmy - We all knew it would never be enough for Paisley and his crew. I said as much in my earlier post. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Sticking with the slavery argument from earlier, one country abolishing slavery was never enough - But if no one had started where would we be today?

As to the British Government getting tough with the loyalists. Huh? When it was tough with the republicans who shouted loudest? Why is it right for them to be tough with Loyalists but wrong for them to be tough with Republicans? I agree wholy that it seemed to have no problem fighting the IRA but how does fighting the Loyalist paras make that right? Perhaps it is not only the IRA that have had enough of bloodshed but the British government have eventualy seen sense as well?

Going back to my first post again I start with the line 'It's certainly a tough one' and finish by stating quite clearly it is beyond me. What isn't beyond my limited scope though is the fact that two wrongs do not make a right and continualy raking up old scores will do nothing to help the peace process.

Perhaps like my erstwhile contender, the Curator, said in his last post o the 'cat, Peace has broken out. Perhaps like him we can all stop fighting about who started it...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 03:08 PM

Dave the gnome,

I welcome the decommisioning, and sincerely hope it leads to a better future., however I did not agree with it because I knew it would not be enough, and already we are seeing that. No matter what the IRA and/or Sinn Fein will do now or in the future to secure a lasting peace it will never be enough, because the loyalist do not want that, they want nothing short of a return to at Unionist Dominated Statelet. They do not want to share power with nationalist, in fact they would all be extremely happy if the nationalist/catholic community ceased to exist.
Sinn Fein agreed to the Good Friday Agreement (70% of which is unfulfilled).
They declared a cease-fire - sorry not enough >br> they decommisioned one lot of arms - sorry not enough
they decommisioned a second stockpile of arms , sorry not enough,
they now have international eyewitnesses declaring that massive amounts of arms etc has been put beyond use - sorry not enough.
I believe it is time for the British Government to give the loyalist and the unionist politicians a ultimatum. Get off your butts and work with the nationalists or you will be left out of the equation. It is time for devolution to be implemented now, in short it is time for the british to get tough with the loyalists, they had no problem getting tough with Sinn Fein and demanding this and demanding that, lets see some demands made on the unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:52 PM

Guest -

Who was brought to their knees ?, certainly not the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 02:50 PM

Weelittledrummer - exactly.

Teribus re" Very early in the campaign when the british army was protecting those nationalist areas"

The fact is that they were initially greeted with open arms but a short tiem later when they started to show their true colours that was when the IRA had to really be formed. You speak as if thousands of IRA members have been sitting in the wings for years waiting for an excuse. Well I come from a nationalist area and we only heard of the IRA in songs and stories. The fact is the IRA was reformed to protect nationalis areas when the so called defender in the british army failed to do so.
I was born in North Belfast and lived in the same street for 26 years and would not have known where to go to even join the IRA.
For many years the IRA consisted of a few old men who met in pubs and sang rebel songs. I reiterate that if the army had done it's job the IRA would have been unnecessary. They didn't and the catholic/nationalist areas had to be protected. The police wouldn't do it, the army wouldn't do it, the B-Specials were disnbanded and the members just became part of the loyalists gun squads, so tell me who was going to protect thosd areas if not for the IRA. In 1969 we had only one pistol in the whole district and that belonged to an old man who apparently had been in Chigago during prohibition. We had nothing but stones and petrol bombs while the loyalists and the loyalist RUC were armed to the teeth and we got no help from the so called army defenders, no help at all.

So sorry - but the IRA was necessary, without the IRA the death toll would have been much much higher.