BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Tam the man
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 10:06 AM

94 percent of people that wrote to the Glasgow hearld said that it was terrible the way the gaurds treated Walter Wolfgang that way, and yet 6 percent of them agreed that he should of be treated that way.

I mean how would they feel if it was one of their familes that was treated that way.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:53 AM

Political labels are useless because politicians are useless.

Why are UK media interviewers so bull nosed? becauyse politicians don't answer the question. media savvy does not = populous's trust.

plus ca change - why are the Tory party desperate to wear Labour's clothes? because they are all turncoats.

FWIW the red in Mr Red is not a political statement - it is purely an expression of joire de vivre and not a little posing. Honesty ain't killed anyone lately. My politics are anti

- anti politician.

This thread is the kind of reason I am anti.

How do I vote? I just hold my nose and mark the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 08:13 AM

The Falklands?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 05:53 AM

Say what you like about Thatcher and I loathe the woman, but she never aggressively invaded and illegally occupied another country.

Scotland?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 04:58 AM

Don't bring the tories into it. This isn't about them. They are just one of a number of partys who will contest the next election.

Say what you like about Thatcher and I loathe the woman, but she never aggressively invaded and illegally occupied another country.

I'm also not interested in talking abour the successes or failures. of new labour domestic policies, as it might end up like praising Mussolini for making the trains run on time.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 02:12 AM

compare and contrast the amount of soul searching and hand wringing that has gone on over this war and Thatchers military adventures.

the only difference is that Thatch had all the right wing media playing her tune - whereas with young Tone, it has been seized on as a small avenue of vulnerability. Small, because any tory pm would have done EXACTLY the same.

recognise you are in the game of politics

those are the choices - naivety or realism.

remember the anti Kinnock poster with the soldier with his hands up - Labours defence policy

thats the world we live in - not some sort of fairyland

One things sure and certain Norther Ireland will be back up in flames , if the tories get back in with their no surrender rhetoric - those are the choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 01:31 AM

I'm not voting for a party that led this country into a criminal war. All other policies pale into insignificance, and I want to see every member of that cabinet face a war crimes tribunal.

It's nothing to do with left and right, and everything to do with right and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 05:19 PM

I said the choice was stark, it remains the choice.

the Times carried the banner headline this week DD is not going to swerve to the right if elected. Sub text - The Times is backing him - Murdoch thinks he can win.

the only reason he wants the tories in, is because he knows damn well theres more in it for him. The tories get in and it's open season on everything decent and fair in society as we know it. Murdoch has reluctantly known what side his bread has been buttered on, whilst the Conservatives have struggled like a cow in a bog since the demise of Thatcher. He's got what deals he can with Blair and there have been services rendered no doubt on both sides.

You don't need to watch party political conferences - they're just showbiz. Realpolitik as outlined by Machiavelli is more to the point. Impute the lowest motives towards everyone within grasping distance of power and you won't be far wrong.

between Bush and the multi nationals like Murdoch, Blair is a prawn in the game with black bean sauce. don't swap him for a trained pirahna.

that's the choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:52 PM

Sorry WLD

Labour? Press Barons?

Wasn't it Rupert Murdoch who slung his hook behind the labour party, which then saw (sky) Football games being allowed to be shown without a license in pubs, to rowdy football crowds, while over the past few years, live accoustic music sessions have been closed down throughout England and Wales, for want of a license.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 02:05 PM

Ake

Labour is never as right wing or as devoted to looting the country for the stinking rich as the tories.

But you have to live at the bottom of the heap in society for a while to know that. You have to be one of the people Peter Lilley sneered in that parody of Gilbert and Sullivan at a tory party conference.

Labour isn't perfect. Its a stark choice at times, but it really is the choice.

tell yourself anything else and you're playing into the hands of the slimeball press barons, who are waiting in the wings. As long as I live I believe the Daily Mail will have the key to my soul - i just have to see any one of their headlines any day, and I'm glaring at the enemy.

Blackmail be damned - its me that's under pressure, and when folks spontaneously take up the Mail's causes (like with this old tosser) - it just astounds me.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:18 AM

I dislike these people less as a party, when they treat debate, dissent and hints of reasonableness as infectious diseases, then as a goverment where they do the same.

I hope we have lots more of this treatment, until the next election, so it gets through to everyone how much more honesty and substance is needed in politics.

This Govement has had about 700 hours of debate time on banning hunting. It has had 40 hours on millitary action in Iraq and Afganistan. Admittidly, debate time doesn't matter, as in both cases it did what it wanted to, and not what a majority of the population wanted...

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 06:09 AM

Wld.Latest economic reports suggest economic decline has ALREADY started.

Please dont start the emotional blackmail, the old labels are meaningless nowadays. This govt are at least as right wing as the tories and maybe more so.

Blairs "chutzpah"   as you put it seems to fool many folks who maybe should know better.

The important point in this thread has never been discussed...the use of anti-terror legislation against domestic protesters.
Mr Wolfgangs case is not an isolated incident.

this act has already been used on several occasions to stifle protests which have nothing to do with Islamic terrorism.

What is the point of being on the winning side politically if the people you elect carry out policies you dont agree with, and your remark about conference watchers betrays your political naivity.

These bastards require watching at all times, and conference can be one of the few times we get a glimpse of their machinations...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:25 AM

yeh let animals in as well, that will scare the tories shitless.

prediction

Davis will win the tory race. he will come very close or maybe even win the next election, as gordon brown lacks Blair's chutzpah. and DD will piss rings round him in debate.

when the tories get back in, steep economic decline begins on day one, as the rolling tory programme of handouts to the stinking rich, and privatisation and downsizing recommences in earnest.

dissidents would never get into the tory conference. they have no qualms about slinging anybody out - look how voices of moderation like John Macregor found themselves on the fast train to oblivion.

which side are you on?
that simple ....
Callaghan had an entire fucking election campaign totally fucked up and by trot hecklers, and it let Thatcher in.

you want that back?

those are the choices, an organised political party that wins, or an outing for ego tripping geriatrics.

having said that - if you watch politcal party conferences, there is much lacking in your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 01:52 AM

All animals are equal--but some are more equal than others.
Is my memory accurate, or am I having a senior moment? How close did I come?       Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 08:56 PM

Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!







Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!







Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!







Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!







Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!
Four legs GOOD! Two legs BAA-AA-AA-AA-D!







The above effect (which can be duplicated by attending any Political Party Meeting) is caused by repeated placing one's fingers into one's ears and removing them...

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

>Only time, much time, will tell.

You'll be older by then, GUEST ... ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 04:38 PM

Okay, I hereby apologize for any derogatory comments or denigrating statements I may have made against your Mr. Wolfgang.
I do not know him, therefore I was simply assuming that he might not be as sharp at 82 as he was at 62. It was unfair.

I was set off by the little jab at GWB and know that was minor. I have been upset by some of the actions of our Political leaders, BOTH sides of the aisle, who get into their 80's and 90's and almost require an aide to wipe the drivel from their chin(s). I am not a total supporter of our President by any stretch of the imagination.
I sometimes wonder, however, that a more normal speaking individual as opposed to a polished politico might be better in the long run. Only time, much time, will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 03:04 PM

terrorism laws are & will continue to be inacted here in the US, UK & anywhere else where government deems them as a necessary tool, not for fighting terrorism but for mass crowd control. What the stewards
did to Mr Wolfgang was awful not because of age but for the silencing of his tounge.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 11:40 AM

look on the bright side: if the new anti-terrorism laws were in force they could have locked him up without trial for 3 months!

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=red%20chickens%20photo&btnG=Search&sa=N&tab=wi

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

Apologies don't mean all that much. The police apologised after killing Jean Charles de Menzes. They gave Wolfgang a standing ovation when he was allowed back into the conference the next day. But the same people had sat on their hands and allowed the heavies a free hand on the previous day, as they dragged him out of his seat, and manhandled the only delegate who seems to have objected to what they were doing.

Maybe if Wolfgang starts up with the Red Flag on the last day of the conference some of the chickens in the conference hall might find the nerve to join in.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:24 PM

I thought that Wolfgang getting the "red card", might generate some excitement among the plebs, but alas its all a fantasy...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:29 PM

So, is this OUR Wolfgang? Our Mudcat Wolfgang? A person who speaks his mind? (and gets others' backs up doing it?) No prob, guys. He can move to Texas. We'll love him and feed him and encourage him to be absolutely frank about whatever he thinks. Get in your rowboat, Wolfgang. Hook a left when you get to Iceland, then take a hard right around the end of Florida, and make a beeline for Galveston. Call my cell a bit before you arrive and I'll drive down and meet you at the dock. I'm only about 4 hrs away. Come on home, honey.    Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 04:45 PM

Having seen Austin Mitchell in full flight I am surprised he took that lying down.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: MARINER
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:37 PM

The treatment of that old man was disgusting, to say the least. The "Stewards" also detained Austin Mitchell M.P. for taking photographs of a queue and then had the police come along , take the camera and delete the shots. Cherie Blair's sister also claimed to have been intimidated by stewards after making a jocular remark about Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

Welcome to hyperbole central. Two plus two equals four (probably).

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:59 PM

So you have been to war GUEST. My father too saw many of his best friends die in blazings tanks in the desert of North Africa. I begrudge him nothing, and have nothing but the greatest admiration for him, and in this particular case for you.

I'm somewhat perplexed by your attitude to those of our father's generation, but you too have your freedom to express that, and I won't condemn that. But, I believe that our elders have much to pass on to us and hope they continue to do so.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

The supposition that the heckler was not fully mentally capable does not appear to be backed by any evidence. As such is it a somewhat disgraceful discriminatory assumption - a prejudice.

Lots of people throughout history have been accused of such a thing and been detained, imprisioned and killed on little or no evidence. It still seems to remain a useful accusation to use against anyone brave (or foolish) enough to express a different view.

Sometimes it would appear to be a duty for some - to join in with these cries and to be seen to jump on this bandwagon - rather than being seen for the unworthy expression of group prejudice that such accusations clearly are.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:08 PM

People on all sides go down in airplanes in a war, and all of their friends and family miss them, regardless of what side they were on. The North Vietnamese pilots who went down were ALSO serving their country and their way of life, and their country was being bombed by the World's mightiest air force. They faced even greater odds than your wingman. They made the same personal sacrifice. That is worth remembering.

Had you been born there, you would have been one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: sian, west wales
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 02:00 PM

I'm with Manitas on this one. Well put.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the stewards set upon this man. And to frog march the younger guy out too just because he objected to them treating an octogenarian that roughly is almost as frightening.

True colours indeed.

siân

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 01:58 PM

My purpose for being somewhat ornery is the problems in the USA with older people in high office. My father is about the same age as yours and has every right to speak his mind. He will be the first to agree that many, if not most, seniors do not belong in high offices of Government. The wearing down of the faculties are perhaps even greater there than in private enterprise.

Yes, I do have a good, no, great understanding of humility. Your first paragraph, although only an innocent expression by you, gave me pause as I looked at the bracelet on my wrist bearing the name of my Wingman who went down over the Gulf of Tonkin.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Tam the man
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM

Good on them both for standing up for the real people of the country and giving the New Labour old Tory party a boot in the nuts that's if they have any.

I was reading in a paper where a young girl was arrested for wearing a t-shirt that said BOLLOCKS TO BLAIR the police then had to let her go as long as she covered it up, obverisly a terrorist, the same as they said about the guy that told to stewards not to throw Wolfgang out.

I mean why are these arseholes police, I forgot you ahve to be an arsehole to join the Police well some of them are.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:12 PM

This in the week when a 73 year old lady was jailed for refusing to pay all of her Council Tax.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4280040.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Tam the man
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 12:11 PM

freedom of speech eh Labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:54 AM

Just wondered GUEST if you've had to flee your country? What has been your involvement in any of the wars since and including world war 2? How many of your friends were gassed, bombed, shot or starved and brutalised?
My father is 87, and has just as much right as you, I, or anybody else for that matter to air his opinions the same as Wolfgang. How do you earn the respect of others may I ask? Your retirement at 52 from your 1st profession, and subsequent endevours may have improved your metal and physical abilities, but it sure ain't taught you humility has it!

What was done to Wolfgang has no right to happen in my or any other country. The media quite rightly showed hecklers from 20 years ago at party conferences, who were not treated in this shabby way. I had a lot of time for New Labour, but the way our civil liberties are being leeched away from us is reminiscent of the 1930's and it makes me shudder.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

Paul Burke, your vague statements compared to others here has given me a clue as to your identity. I did not practice for very long in my first profession, schooling was extensive, but I do remember a name such as yours that came through my office. Can you remember Dr. Thomas, the surgeon who performed your lobotomy?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

It all depends what you mean by "more equal", doesn't it?

All people are demonstrably different from one another, so they are clearly not equal in their outer characteristics, their abilities, their talents, their moral nature, etc... We all know that.

In a just system, however, they are all given equal treatment before the law. They are all given equal rights and respect as human beings BY the law and the political system. THAT is what was the intention behind a statement such as: "All man are created equal".

To attempt to invalidate that statement by pointing out the many differences between people is to either totally misunderstand the original intent of the statement or to just engage in phony, opportunistic argumentation for the sake of appearing to score a point.

And that's what the ego LOVES to do. The ego doesn't care about anything except winning. And you could say that about political parties too, couldn't you? That's what's wrong with them. They will do ANYTHING to win, stoop to any dishonesty, ruin any career, destroy anything...just to win. That's criminal insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:28 AM

You mean when some animals are thought to be more equal than others?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

Yes, there was such a scene in Animal Farm. Fascism is easily accomplished. You hold up nebulous fears in front of people. You direct those fears toward easy and vulnerable targets at home and abroad. You get not very well-informed young men in uniforms to arrest, beat up and kill people for you, by convincing them that they are upholding the law and defending society.

It's a cinch. Works like a charm every time. It worked in Germany, Italy, Japan, the Soviet Union, Iraq, Uganda, Cambodia, China...and it works in the U.K. and the USA too! There is never any shortage of foolish young men available to do the dirty work, frequently at the cost of their own lives...in the long run.

And how is fascism orchestrated? Through a political party. Political parties are a curse. They do not promote democracy, they demolish it.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:59 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4292342.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM

As I read it Mr Wolfgang was refused readmission as his pass had been cancelled and was asked to wait while the problem was sorted out. When he asked what powers the police had to stop him walking in they told him!

The pictures I've seen of the stewards all seem to indicate that they are out-of-work brick shit-houses. This seems to be a bit of a coincidence for volunteers. Are we sure they weren't employed security guards with instructions to intimidate hecklers? Ah, thought not!

Wasn't there a scene like this in Animal Farm?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:48 AM

Good on em! - If he can't just sit there and tow the party line - chuck him out of the conference!

Hell, chuck him out of the country.....Or hang the old bastard!

Everyone else there seemed quite happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:39 AM

It is one of the common diseases of this society to show little or no respect for advanced age. The elderly are considered useless trash to be consigned to a lonely, lingering death in an old age home. "Guest" will soon find this out to his own great discomfiture, I would assume...

In classical societies of the past, where the dollar had not yet taken over all other considerations, the elderly were considered to be the repository of the accumulated wisdom of the community...and their words were given much notice and respect by the younger.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

The supposition that the heckler was not fully mentally capable does not appear to be backed by any evidence. As such is it a somewhat disgraceful discriminatory assumption - a prejudice.

If the fault was that of the volunteer stewards, why did no-one correct it at the time? Who gave the volunteer stewards powers under the Prevention of Terrorism Act? There appears to be no justification for any thought of terrorist activity - is there? That being so why should restraint (even temporary) under the Prevention of Terrorism Act be possible?

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 09:53 AM

We are really, really sorry," Mr Blair said. "I apologise completely and it should not have happened. The stewards of conferences are volunteers and we are going to have to look at how we train them but obviously it should not have happened.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: mooman
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:58 AM

Hang on Paul!

Let's not make the same mistake and throw a heckler out!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:43 AM

Obviously not far enough. Your first profession? Picking fag ends out of bins. Now picking your nose to get it really clean.

So you are older than 52, and apparently under 65. Not much time left, kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 08:20 AM

Really clever responses, guys. I do admire class.

No, I'm not 82 - I retired from my first profession at age 52 and then did a series of other things, trying occupations I could have never attempted had I stuck myself there to perhaps the point of diminished capacity. By trying 4 different occupations, I maintained, even improved, my mental and physical capabilities as opposed to drifting into a possible unhealthy routine of sameness.

I am sure that Mr. Wolfgang put his case "eloquently and with grace"
He has many years of practice at the same thing and it was probably a 'canned statement' used many times before. Your Ox was gored and you even used GWB to try to patch the hole. Pretty weak.

Subject: RE: BS: Wolfgang thrown out!!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 07:41 AM

It shows the utter degeneracy of today's Labour party. The leadership will not brook criticism even of the mildest sort; the membership are there only to implement the dictates of the politburo.

The real disgrace was that the rest of the conference did not walk out in protest. It shows the depths to which the few remaining rank and file members have sunk.

Wolfgang is clearly far more intellectually capable than our anonymous GUEST, whose mother should shove his dummy back in.