BS: Circumcision: pros and cons

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 09:18 PM

WEll, I rather doubt removal of the labia enhances sexual function/satisfication. And for many people(s), male circumcision affords significant social (ie family, religious, cultural) and psychological benefit, in addition to better health/hygiene.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:55 PM

I may be wrong but I can't think of any other medical procedure where a portion of the anatomy is removed, without the consent of the patient, as a preventitive against the possibility of some future complication.

An equivalent of this would be removing the labia of a female to prevent the possibility of labial cancer or reducing the risk of urinary tract infection.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:33 PM

Circumcision provides for a lifetime of enhanced sexual function and satisfaction, because removal of hte foreskin causes a significant "increase in ejaculatory latency time". (See the link I just posted above).

In addition, here are some of the medical benefits of male circumcision:

"...a boy circumcised as a newborn has multiple lifetime health advantages compared to one with an �intact� foreskin. These include protection against serious kidney infections in infancy, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) including human immunodeficiency (HIV) infections and human papilloma virus (HPV) in young men, and invasive cancer of the penis in middle and old age.

In addition, all through life uncircumcised males are more susceptible to penile infections (balanoposthitis) and a variety of skin disorders of the penis such as eczema and psoriasis, as well as more difficulty maintaining good hygiene.

About 1% of boys are born with only a pinpoint opening at the tip of the foreskin (phimosis) preventing retraction, leading to painful erections, and requiring future circumcision, at a time when the procedure is more difficult, risky and costly.

Further, women sexual partners of uncircumcised men with HPV infection are at significantly greater risk of developing cervical cancer."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:31 PM

My banjo string went when I was 15,with a young lady at the time. It scared hell out of me. Nobody told he it could happen, very sore may I add. Then again a good Irish Catholic boy shouldn't have known !

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:09 PM

There are medical benefits. Some doctors charge $400 for the procedure.


Info available here.


Other views.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 08:04 PM

"Yes, there are medical benefits to circumcision"

Some keep saying that but have yet to provide a SINGLE example...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 07:36 PM

So how come the cult of Americanism apparently adopted this rather uncomfortable ritual?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 07:06 PM

Michael, here's an interesting study showing how male circumcision enhances sexual performance and satisfaction

"CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision does not adversely affect sexual function. The increase in the ejaculatory latency time can be considered an advantage rather than a complication."

This increase in "ejaculatory latency time" is due to What is Lost in Circumcision

"1. The frenar band of soft ridges--the single most pleasure producing zone on the male body. Loss of this densely innervated and reactive belt of tissue reduces the sensitivity of the remaining penis to about that of ordinary skin."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 06:09 PM

"The strange thing is how this rather odd cultural idiosyncracy became common practice in the USA in a secular context, whereas in most parts of the world it has been more or less confined to the field of religious ritual."

Ah, but then for a significant segment of the population in the U.S. of A. being an Ahmerikun IS a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bbc
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:58 PM

Difficulty retracting the foreskin varies, but it's not usually a problem. One of my son's had an easily retractable foreskin fairly early on & one didn't until into puberty. He's had sex as a young man w/ no problem & both of my sons are glad they weren't circumcised. One is convinced it will make sex more fun for him & his partner, which some sources seems to agree w/. He's the one who hasn't had sex yet, so we can't be sure. You are not supposed to force the foreskin back--just retract it gently. Cleanliness was never an issue w/ my sons. When they were small, I cleaned all of their body parts. As they got older--what do you know!--they did it themselves. Duh. I made the decision not to circumcise my firstborn when he had to, unexpectedly, start his life in neonatal intensive care. I didn't see why he needed more trauma. I was leaning that way, anyway, the procedure being medically unnecessary. Once one of my sons was uncircumcised, it seemed silly to circumcise the younger.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,GUEST 4:48
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:23 PM

Gnu's question is a very valid and important one.

Does any uncircumcised male reading this have difficulty retracting the foreskin, or is it something that all men are able to accomplish in time?

In particular, are they able to retract fully while having an erection ? The reason I ask is because I would imagine that there would be no bigger turn-off for a woman than an unretractable foreskin on their partner's penis.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

michaelr

There are scads of sites that address the issue of which you speak. Don't castigate people because they have some fun while addressing things on YOUR thread. I am outta here. Y'all have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:12 PM

Oh, and we've all heard the joke about the luggage/couch/whatever. Several times, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:09 PM

Let's get back to the topic, shall we?

I think we can all agree that female circumcision is a cruel, senseless form of mutilation, and that it is doubtless much worse than malecircumcision.

It is also not the issue here. I started this thread for a discussion about male circumcision as practiced in the US.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 05:09 PM

GUEST at 04:48PM... Ummmm... that's what I am getting at... ah, getting to... ah, well, okay... can the foreskin be easily "rolled back" to completely expose ALL surfaces for washing? GUEST may be on to something here which may be of great significance in this "debate". That is, until well into puberty, many males CANNOT roll out the wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:55 PM

It's yours, and you can wash it as fast as you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:48 PM

..."Can the "uncut" penis of an infant be easily fully exposed for washing?"...

I can only speak for myself, but I had difficulty for years as a young boy in pulling the foreskin back to wash.

Constant practice made it easier ...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:58 PM

There are a whole range of different procedures that can be termed "female circuncision", including some which are relately analogous to male circumcision, and others which are far more drastic.

While in some cultures they have becomne customary, fortunately they are not actually prescribed by any significant religion - the pity is that that isn't the case with male circumcision. (Which also comes in a number of varieties, some much worse than others.)

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:52 PM

The mom or dad or both have to wash junior all over anyway. Pulling back the foreskin on his pecker is no more a task than washing under the arms, the bum or the tootsies.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:47 PM

Hmmm... I guess my next question might be better asked of a doctor practicing in this area, but, I'll ask it anyway. Can the "uncut" penis of an infant be easily fully exposed for washing?

I apologize for my ignorance here, but, it would seem to me that herein lies the crux of the biscuit. (Seriously, I don't remember... and, I got a member. I just don't remember.)

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:41 PM

The issue of male circumcision is one thing. The aspects of it to do with male 'sensitivity' during sex, cleanliness, whether males who are or aren't circumcized will last longer during coitus, etc. In reality, there are sites dedicated to 'both' sides of that equation. Many sites. Mostly, you are who you are, and that's that.

Female circumcision is barbaric. Suggesting that there are social customs in place and therefore it's gotta be done is nothing more or less than bullshit. Read Jackson's "The Lottery" and watch rituals/traditions at work.

The differences between male and female circumcision are massive both in their pain to the recipient and in their end results.

"Genital alteration in the female includes infibulation, clitoridectomy, clitoral circumcision and piercing. The World Health Organization had a conference in February 1979 in Khartoum, Sudan, and unanimously condemned the mutilations as disastrous to women's health and as indefensible on medical as well as humane grounds."

The above is from

here.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:32 PM

"There's a book by Alice Walker (author of The Color Purple) which I can't remember the name of right now"

The book title is "Warrior Marks".

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

michaelr - That link is very educational and will hopefully make people stop and think before mindlessly following tradition.

I would hope that men would educate themselves and spare their sons needless pain. I am so glad to see that this issue is finally getting the attention it deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,feeling slightly queasy
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

look, to those still comparing male & female circumcision & saying they are both as bad as each other - you do know what they both entail, right?
Male circumcision - removing a flap of skin. Causing reduced sensation, so I'm told. Female circumcision - removing the whole lot. I.e. no sensation at all cos there's nothing left to sense with. The male equivalent of that would actually be chopping a large chunk of flesh off the end, not just a flap of skin.

Yes, they are both mutilation. But different degrees of it.

Not that I'm advocating either sort, I hasten to add.

There's a book by Alice Walker (author of The Color Purple) which I can't remember the name of right now, which deals very sensitively with this issue amongst africans. Worth a read if you're interested and have a strong stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:41 PM

Gee... I haven't been following this thread and haven't read most of it but 95 posts? Wow... seems like a big flap over a small tissue.

Minds me... wife comes home and gives her husband a wallet but forgets the price tag is in the box. He sees it and goes nuts! "$95? You paid $95 bucks fer a wallet? Are you crazy?" She says, "But, it's made of elephant foreskin." He asks her, "So what?" She replies, "Rub it a bit and it turns into a set of luggage." Smart shopper.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 01:31 PM

This isn't about anti-Semitism, GUEST.

This is about the rights of the child and, possibly, a cycle of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:48 PM

Dianavan's point, although apparently not yet researched by the scientific community, also makes sense. Such trauma experienced by an infant may well lead to sexual anger and violence in the adult.

You are so right about that. It's well known that anti-Semitism throughout history was brought on by the fact that circumcised Jews have been raping decent white women en masse.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:36 PM

Male circumcision also affects the quality of the male's life forever.

That's exactly it. According to findings published by the British Society of Urologists, the foreskin contains a large number of nerve endings, while the glans contains relatively few. You lop it off, you lose sensation.

Dianavan's point, although apparently not yet researched by the scientific community, also makes sense. Such trauma experienced by an infant may well lead to sexual anger and violence in the adult.

Check the research at www.noharmm.org.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:52 AM

Mark

Could you please enlighten us about the medical benefits to which you refer.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:05 AM

In a way uit's a bit like docking puppies. Some people still seem to think they've got the right to do that. The dogs rarely complain about it in later life, after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 04:38 AM

Of course, there was the guy who went to his doctor and said he wanted to be castrated. The doc argued and argued but to no avail, the guy was adamant. So he did the operation. The guy woke up in the recovery room next to a man who had bandages in the same spot.
He asked, "So, what did they do to you?"
His neighbor said, "I was circumcised."
The man paused, then slapped his forehead and said, "THAT'S the word!"

And where do all the mohels in Philadelphia live?











On Juniper Street.

Aloha,
Mark

PS, Yes, there are medical benefits to circumcision, and yes, measures are now taken to make it a painless procedure for babies as well. Does that make it right? Not necessarily, but it makes some of the issues a bit less black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 03:19 AM

I think one of the ancestors must have been pretty bored sitting around the campfire when he came up with the idea. "Hey, lets cut a chunk off of that kids dick! It might make God happy, nothing else has."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Terry K
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 02:18 AM

Mate of mine got circumcised. Paid the bill - and he left a tip.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 12:47 AM

In most instances, it would be better applied to the nose.

One will then know, in advance, the type of service being rendered and the nurture to the nature of the resiplicant... with advance warning... a greater fee can be decreed.

And as previous threads in the past 24 hours indicate - heaven help the sucorer of a syphlitic, lepor, requesting suplication.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:41 PM

I know an adult who recently had himself circumcised and was greatly pleased. I took care to remind him he owed a cock to Aesclepius.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Internal combustion makes it go. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:38 PM

The information I had when my son was born was that it reduced the risk of cervical cancer in his eventual partner. With the new treatment for this maybe it is no longer aplicable

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:57 PM

Clinton does a much better job of arguing this than I do.

Its really a matter of whether you are willing to inflict pain on an infant.


Just because you can't remember it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. We know that often children who are sexually abused cannot remember the event because of the trauma. This is what I mean by the 'failure to protect' syndrome, ie: I don't know why I am so angry with my mother. She has never been anything but kind and loving. (Its because she failed to protect you).


McGrath - I have the same question as you do - "The strange thing is how this rather odd cultural idiosyncracy became common practice in the USA in a secular context, whereas in most parts of the world it has been more or less confined to the field of religious ritual."

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:49 PM

Male circumcision also affects the quality of the male's life forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:38 PM

oh, never mind...
(Bobad; Bobad; Bobad: Bobad......)

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:36 PM

'Scuse me, Bobab

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:32 PM

Read the rest of my sentence, Boab.
"To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced (which I personally wouldn't do) with the crippling practice of foot binding."
Even if one grants that male circumcision is indefensible, it is just such a minor, inconsequential, "indefensible" thing in comparision to female circumcision, which drastically, tragically, affects the quality of the females life forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:08 PM

"
To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced"

Why? I don't get your analogy. Both involve the unnecessary removal of a portion of anatomy for ritualistic purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:59 PM

Or something.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:57 PM

I live in a country where most males are circumcised and the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects, are as a result of malpractice, something which occurs enough in all fields of medicine.
So no, I don't think one is justified in calling it mutilation or barbarism.

There is no logical connection between those two sentences. Putting "So" at the start of the second does seem to seek to imply that there is.

It doesn't hurt if you have it done to you as a child, but it would hurt a great deal if it were done to you as an adult? How convenient. Isn't it possible that it hurts in both cases, but our memories of what happens to us as babies are not normally accessible to us in later life?

The strange thing is how this rather odd cultural idiosyncracy became common practice in the USA in a secular context, whereas in most parts of the world it has been more or less confined to the field of religious ritual.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:36 PM

Above post for Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

And he would sing, "Anchors Away" when he shat, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

I can understand that a lot of people now feel that male circumcision is unnecessary and inappropriate. But I have a hard time understanding anything remotely like the outrage over it that we're seeing here. If you could get an accurate survey of circumcised males, nationally or worldwide, you would look far and wide for any male outside a mental institution who gives any thought, in any given five year period, to whether or not he is circumcised. (Apart, that is, from any religious significance it has for him.)
To equate the significance of male circumcision and female circumcision is as unrealistic as to equate having a child's ears pierced (which I personally wouldn't do) with the crippling practice of foot binding.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:31 PM

Absolutely fascinating discussion. . . .

I once heard about a guy who had a propellor tattooed on each buttock.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:30 PM

Alright, Clinton, fair enough. Shall we call it quits, as don't think either has something to say that hasn't been said already.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:20 PM

"so you must be a barbaric scumbag!!!"

Funny, that's what I have tattooed on me arse.