Draught Guinness

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 02:21 AM

I was introduced to the Guinness they serve in Dublin sometime in the early 1970's. Now I'm a fat bastard.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 02:04 AM

Wilfrid is right, lager IS beer. Even on the bottle it often says lager bier. I think there is a tendency to fully equate bitter with beer when it really is just another style and a not very well defined one either. When does a beer stop being a bitter ale and become a premium ale? Is there that much of a difference between a porter and a stout, Guinness, for example, is often referred to a porter? If you want to distinguish the main grouping of beer styles in the UK then ale may be a better term even though historically ales were unhopped.

In all the breweries I have visited, except the Artois brewery where we didn't see the fermenting beer, the yeast has been working on top where it could get the air. These were all brewing ales of various sorts.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 06:10 PM

Correction:
Ale, Bitter, Stout are top brewed. My fault - too tired, not enough beer.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 06:06 PM

Aha - Raedwulf brings further light into the confusion. In Germany all brews made from malt, hops, yeast and water are subsumed under "beer".
Lager, Export, Pilsener are bottom brewed, Ale, Bitter, Stout are bottom brewed (unfortunately just the opposite as R. tells us).
A specialty of Duesseldorf and surroundings is Alt (= old), so called because it is brewed in the old way: bottomwise (with its near relative Koelsch, from Cologne).
While in ye olden days the fermentation depended on the germs flying around and dropping into the must at random - so you never knew how your beer would get, nowadays it is possible to single out special yeast cells for special brews.
So fermenting at lower temperatures became possible, also to store the so brewed beers for a longer time. Hence Lager from germ. lagern = to store or Export because the beer could be transported over great distances without decay.
A good bottom brewed beer should be consumed at ca. 8° C
Carbonic acid as a pressure for bottom brewed beers is considered necessary over here. By the way, the world's first apparatus for carbonic acid pressure aided tapping was invented, patented and first produced in 1865, in my home town Friedberg near Frankfurt.
But every one to his taste - de gushtibush non esht dishputandum, as the Suevian peasant says. The ingredients are, in my humble opinion, more important than the pressure; only with German beer you can be sure that you get the pure stuff (since St. George's day, A.D. 1516)

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM

and the "Sunset" beer is delicious! Layers of flavor in something simply called 'beer'...I approve! Yum! It is not strong or demanding...it allows you to enjoy it with a meal and still appreciate a fine beer flavor.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:46 PM

oh, I'd love to get over and try these at their source!
*opening the 2nd as I type....waiting for it to achieve decent temperature*

Isle of Arran -Sunset

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:13 PM

guest stuart

Bill D

obviously started with one of the good ones, stlll my favourite is Hook Norton. you and Rita had best get over here and we can have a really good session.

Here in london with MGS for a beer festival tomorrow, so I can try a few southern beers tomorrow

Stuart

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 04:42 PM

Since it hasn't been properly explained so far...

There are two differences 'twixt' beer/ale & lager. The first is top/bottom brewing. Lager is top brewed - the yeast sits at the top of the must (must: the fermentable liquid), beer/ale is bottom brewed. Nothing to do with the must, AFAIK, it's just the way the yeast is.

Difference two: Lager is supposed to be drunk cold, beer *not*!. This is one of the reasons I hate lager. Ever druk warm lager? It's horrible!

The ideal serving temperature for lager is @4C, beer should be served at 'room' temperature, 12-16C. This explains my standard commentary on lager ("You know why they serve it that cold? It's so you can't taste it!"). Being slightly more fair, lager is supposed to be drunk cold, it's brewed with that end in mind.

Beer you should be able to taste. Comments have been made about the temperature at which Guinness is served. It is Irish stout; it is beer, not lager; you should be able to taste it! The notion of ice cold Guinness, to me at least, is bloody ridiculous. Whether that alters any perceptions of Guinness, I don't know; but as someone who likes his beer, I'm always happy to try anything that claims to be a stout. I'm not overmuch on bitter, but mild, stout, & plain simple 'beer'...

Not so happy about anything that claims to be "Irish" stout, though. I've always found them to be... lacking... (this includes Guinness, but I've never drunk in Ireland, so I may have been unlucky).

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 12:28 PM

Stuart! I just tried the 1st one last weekend. Tried the Butcombe Gold Bitter. Took it to our song circle, where I could sit quietly and sip whilst listening to other's sing. I dont usually pick bitter as my first choice when picking a beer, but this was first rate! I'd happily have more. (As you remember, there was quite a bit of beer left from the excursion, including some Shipyard, so I have saved those special ones for times when I an not distracted...*grin*)

Strollin' Johnny...I have had Shiner...and Moosehead, and those are about a 'C' rating (though Shiner Bock may rate a C+)...Now Black Sheep! I was lucky enough to be gifted with a bottle 2 years ago, and THAT is fine beer!

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:22 AM

Does that mean CAMRA is not a pressure group?

Sorry I'll get my coat.

Dave

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 04:22 AM

It wasn't the typo that I was moaning about- It was the blanket CO2. CAMRA is the (British) Campaign for Real Ale:

CAMRA's definition of Real Ale

And I know German beer is often excellent. In fact, when I was last in Bavaria, my friend there was praising highly the beer he was drinking. He said it was "top fermented". I pointed out that this is the normal way of doing it in Britain, except it doesn't come out cloudy...

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 04:03 AM

Paul - what is CAMRA? (not in my dictionary)

Sorry for the typing error. Naturally it must be CO2, which I should know as a former firefighter.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 01:49 AM

Wilfreid, y'are dead right. Our local beer drinkers used to lament "wild weather" for the simple reason that it gave the beer a rough ride being delivered in the "dray" to the pub.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Stuart
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:33 AM

Bill D you talk of a subject dear to my heart. The best American beer I found on the recent visit was "Shipyard" from Kennybunkport, Maine.

How's the sampling of the english beers we left with you going

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:31 AM

BillD - Sorry mate, I allowed myself the luxury of an attempt to provoke old Martin! LOL!

A thousand apologies - there are indeed some nice American beers, my personal favourite being one called Shiner (I think that's its name - it's all so hazy now!) of which sampled a few during a hot & humid stay in Houston a while ago. I rather like Moosehead too, but I think it's Canadian, not American?

But sadly they don't compare to Guinness - or to Monkey Wrench, Black Sheep or Tom Woods. :-)
S:0)

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:41 AM

" As a driving gas we use C2O (carbonic acid) over here in Germany. It is tasteles and doesn't affect the taste of beer."

I thought Germans were supposed to know about beer, the Reinheitsunterseeschwimmengeboot and all that. The use of CO2 as a blanket and propellant for keg beer was the original raison d'etre of CAMRA. That and the retention of wooden barrels, which campaign was lost.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 02:46 AM

As a student I had to earn my money by hard working. For several years I delivered beer for several breweries, was deputy for a landlord on holidays, and tapped a lot of barrels myself.

The quality of every beer depends on the right cooling. Too warm: tastes like horse piss; too cold: no taste at all, but gives your intestines the creeps instead.

Cleanliness is essential, and a bigger throughput keeps the hoses longer clean, as Anon. Guest so rightly remarked.

As a driving gas we use C2O (carbonic acid) over here in Germany. It is tasteles and doesn't affect the taste of beer.

I started in the good old times when we had only wooden barrels (moved and tapped them from ca. 15 - 50 gallons), then different kinds of metal kegs were invented. I couldn't taste a deterioration. They are easy to handle, and the modern bayonet coupling surely is an improvement.

And don't forget the three Hs I mentioned in another thread:
Beer, consumed excessively, will make you hungry, horny, and - alas - himpotent.

American beer: The big brands you can forget. When delivering Mainzer Bier to American units, they had a lot of boxes of American beer in their basement. The NCO told me, that they had to take it, but no one drank it, preferring German beer. Wise guys!

Cheers!
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:13 AM

I first tasted Guiness in Ireland. It was not too cold, smooth and creamy. I especially enjoyed the sweet foam. What a treat. Tried it many times since in Canada and the States. Sorry to say, its just not the same. I don't know why but after reading this, I would guess its the preservatives and the temperature.

I'm actually glad its not as good here at home. It went down just a little too easy. Explains alot about the Irish and "the drink".

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:52 AM

Guinness is not a heavy beer. Not certain, but I think it lies around 6%. It is by far my favourite pint----if it has been treated and served properly.
   Our local club in the auld sod had a first-class pint of guinness; right temperature, regularly cleaned pipes, AND a good "club price"!
Then some blooterhead decided that in order to improve the BEER , an increase in the chill factor had to be introduced. So they chilled their lager [heartburn inducer] and stapled the damn' lager pipes alongside the guinness pipes. Utter ruin.The great pint of guinness chilled the taste-buds so effectively that it was hardly distinguishable from the yucky lager. And that holds good for ALL chilled guinness--no matter who drinks it, be it an Irishman in Dublin, or a Geordie in Newcastle. My first question in any bar is "Any REAL guinness?" Most barmen, to give credit, know exactly what I'm asking. They usually do have a "sacred " pump; long may it continue----

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: iancarterb
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:51 PM

don firth- right on on moose drool, and i recommend you try anything from deschutes brewery, esp. their obsidian stout. guess i need to repair the left hand shift key on this computer.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:44 PM

ooooooopppppppppppsssssssss!!!!!!!!!

I stand sit corrected...My brain cell was tired.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Dave Swan
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 10:41 PM

Northern California, dammit!

D

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 10:12 PM

oh, my Dave! It is amazing to even find someone who knows of New Albion! (of course, you BEING in Southern California helps!)

I still have a New Albion Porter bottle in my collection, and though I may dispose of the OTHER 900 bottles someday, New Albion is not for sale....(well...make a ridiculous offer!)

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: John Routledge
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:08 PM

Anyone who has seen the "yeasty mould" growing in pipes which are not cleaned very regularly would immediately know why beers from lazy landlords are not up to scratch.

This may also be the case with Guiness.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 07:27 PM

Not good for the piles let me tell you !

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Dave Swan
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM

New Albion!!!! Ah, Bill, there was a brewery. We played their company picnic a couple of times and lived to tell the tales.

I still have a New Albion t-shirt in nearly new condition and a wooden beer case with Sal Guardino's etching of a sailing ship on the side. See the photo near the bottom of this page. When New Albion closed they sold their equipment to an upstar called Mendocino Brewing, the authors of Red Tail Ale.

Forgive the creep. God I miss that beer.

D

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

my DEAR Strollin' Johnny!..."Watered-down weasel-piss"....I can see you have not strolled about the USA recently...or have not looked properly! 30 years ago, you would have been right, but 29 years ago a little brewery called "New Albion" was started, and from that beginning an entire industry of micro-breweries has emerged that produce 'almost' every type of beer/ale....and some of them world class! If you are ever in Delaware, try Dogfish Head ...some amazing brews!

That being said, I would like, just once, to try a Guiness in Ireland!

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Jimmy C
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:37 PM

Dave,

The preservatives that may be added to the stuff would be as a result of various Food and Drug administration policies in countries other than Ireland.
Or it may be that Guinness loses some of the flavour when it is more than 10 days old. I have no proof but I am sure I heard that preservatives were added to the exported stuff.
I know that Cadbury's Chocolate for instance does not taste the same in Canada as it does in England. Canadian authorities insist on certain ingredients to be added to meet their specifications etc. The Canadian Cadbury's is definitely not as smooth and/or creamy as the stuff in the U.K. That is why many ex-pats are willing to pay more for imported Cadbury's rather than the local product.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Dave Swan
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

There are several factors under the landlord's control which can alter the taste of any beer, ale or stout. These are: Cleanliness of beer lines (a clean line is a happy line), cleanliness of glassware (thoroughly washed and rinsed) gas pressure and composition, storage and service temperature, proper rotation of stock. Any beer will taste better when fresh, well cared for and served properly.

Although Guinness does taste different from one country to another, I'm pretty sure that no preservatives are added to export Guinness..

D

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: ossonflags
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 11:56 AM

Everything was crap after "Worthington E", and for bottled beers "possibly "Samual Smiths Old Brewery Brown" - in my estimation a better drink than the very overated "Newky Broon"- but they don't make it any more and "Worthington White Shield" that you can still get.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:32 AM

Now, Guniness Foreign Export Bottles - that's a beer!

Regards

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 06:54 AM

Probably stopped drinking becuase he drank too much and couldn't handle it

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 05:46 AM

So he doesn't drink, but he claims to know about beer. Just goes to prove what a fart-in-a-bag ole MG is.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:50 AM

I read somewhere that there are different brews of Guinness, depending on how far it has to travel, and only the Irish pint is the original formula. This might tie up with JimmyC's post at 8.59.
Mind you, it would be in Liverpool a sight quicker, and having had a smoother journey, than it would be in, say, Kerry.

Now what was that old joke about the rear-gunner on a Guinness drey?

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:48 AM

"along with carrying a load in your pants"

Tit.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:31 AM

There are plenty of anaerobic bacteria. Nitrogen won't affect those, and the favours they produce are probably even worse.

Most myths about Guinness concern the "thickness" of the beer, as in the guy who broke his glass, but had time to ask the barman for another before any spilled. Or writing your name on it.

But this really happened- in a pub in Toxteth in the 70s, my brother was drinking a pint between tunes, and gabbing. He reached out for the glass without looking, pushed it off the table- and caught it in mid- flight with an amazing reflex grab- still not looking.

Pub full of hardened Scousers, all with jaws on the floor.


Poor MG, HE smells of sanctimony.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Terry K
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:14 AM

There are more urban myths about Guinness than any other beer, usually perpetuated by people who rarely drink the stuff.

The significant difference between Guinness drunk in Ireland (North or South) is that they serve it much colder than they do in England - unless you opt for the Extra Cold in England. Which means that it doesn't taste so full as it does in England. Which probably means that those who prefer it in Ireland don't like the taste as much as those who prefer it in England.

The serving "ceremony" is more to do with tradition. Go to the Guinness stand at the Boat Show and you will find that they pull half pints and let them stand just the same as they do in Ireland, topping them up as they are sold. But that is only because they are so busy, with all the pseuds having their once-a-year pint and banging on about whether it a good one or not.

I would think that it would be difficult for Guinness pipes to become "dirty" because Guinness is totally dead, being blanketted under nitrogen, an inert gas. Dirty pipes certainly contribute to real ale going off, but that is because the stuff is full of live organisms.

The other favourite myth is the belief that it is a full bodied, heavy drink. It is not. It is a pleasant lunchtime tipple, light and easy to drink, not too alcoholic so good for an extended session, and not at all hard on the head.

Nor on the bowels, which is another popular myth.......

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:42 PM

The trick, Marty is to enjoy a beer on a warm afternoon, or some convivial time with a few good friends, not to get totally blasted and puke your guts up. That's why most people in this thread are talking about such things as flavor.

Moderation, my boy, moderation.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM

Actually I don't drink. At least not any more. And bragging about beer is just stupid.

How drunk you get is your problem, not mine. Most of you probably smell like beer and piss I would think, along with carrying a load in your pants.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Jimmy C
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM

I am a guinness drinker, always was and probably always will be, however the pint in Ireland is far superior to any I have had in   Montreal, Boston, Toronto, Quebec City and many other places as well. The main reason is that Guinness should be consumed within 10 days of brewing, this is possible in Ireland whereas in other places it may take up to a month or more before it is consumed. This means that exported Guinness has preservatives added and this does alter the taste. In addition to this, the method of drawing a pint may have a small effect on the taste but mostly it is the preservatives. I should mention that I have had many a great pint in Toronto, but the best Guinness I ever had was actually bottled Guinness CMortons Red Heart Guinness), served in Kelly's Cellars in Bank street, Belfast, one of my first stops when I go home. I also think that many places are serving it at too low a temperature, this also affects the overall taste. The good thing about all this is that if there was no Guinness, there will still be lots of excellent ales, porters, stouts etc to keep us happy.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST, TBPL
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:49 PM

Was that "Water Music" aka Budweiser Light ...

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM

Actually, Handel wrote a few good drinking songs, too.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,back on cookies tomorrow
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:10 PM

Handle wrote some great drinking songs. Another that comes to mind is:

"They´re Knocking them Doon the Old Pubs and Plastic All the Go".


Keep going Johnny......

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 02:22 PM

Danny's by Johhny Handle

Get yersels to Danny's
Sup all the beor ye can!
Ten-an-a-half* for a pint o' Scotch
Wey, hinny man ye cannit gan wrang!
Noo Aa've supped Fed at all o' the clubs
Broon at the Penny Wet
Cocktails at the posh Tork's Heed
Danny's is the best beor yet!

Get yersels to Danny's
Sup all the beor ye can!
Ten-an-a-half* for a pint o' Scotch
Wey, hinny man ye cannit gan wrang!

You might like auld black Guinness,
Soot an' vinegar neat!
That's aal reet fer Irishmen
But Danny's can't be beat!

Get yersels to Danny's
Sup all the beor ye can!
Ten-an-a-half* for a pint o' Scotch
Wey, hinny man ye cannit gan wrang!

Noo there's Tolly Cobbold or dish-watta
Cameron's and Tetley's tee
But they taste like nitric acid
And it's Danny's beor for me!

Get yersels to Danny's
Sup all the beor ye can!
Ten-an-a-half* for a pint o' Scotch
Wey, hinny man ye cannit gan wrang!

So follow the old Blue Star me lads
Follow it through an' through
Caal in the leek trench afterwards
And show what it can do!

Danny's!


*obviously dated ...

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:20 PM

Now that does make sense..................

And Tom does have a great reputation,,,,,,,,,and for his Guinness as well.

He flawlessy renders the Roman Soldier Song with a "sinister, dexter" chorus. In the middle he does a "Roman soldier goes up to a bar and says   ´Give us a Martinus´. The barman says ´Don´t you mean Martini´ and the soldier repies ´If I want more than one I´ll tell you´.

When people laugh at this (!!) Tom says "You can tell the grammar school boys".

Dave

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:20 AM

I was told recently by an excellent licensee (Tom at Fagan's, Sheffield) that the reason that he gets complimented on his Guinness is that he sells a lot of it. So it's more to do with throughput than pouring. And it figures that in Ireland the Guinness goes quicker as there aren't so many people drinking bitter.

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:27 AM

Perhaps the volume of gas in the liquid has an effect, don't know for certain. What I do know is when in Ireland as I was 3 weeks ago the stuff goes down like milk, whereas that seldom happens in the UK

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:15 AM

We have now had this stuff about pouring Guinness twice in this thread, and how it makes a difference to the taste.

Cannot see it myself. Will someone explain the mechanism by which how Guinness is poured makes a difference to the taste?

About the same way as constant adverts is my guess but I am willing to be persuaded.

Dave

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: Stu
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:18 AM

Thanks for the link Raggy - great stuff and very informative.

Can a pint of Guinness vary between pubs? Perhaps it can. Some places pour the Guinness as if it was a normal pint of bitter. Go to Ireland and see how they pour it there (order two if you are thinking of having a third and or order the next one when you are halfway down the first) they take their time, pour just over half and let the beer settle completely before finishing the pour. As stated, the cleanliness of the pipes etc must make a difference, so it is entirely possible differnent pubs could make a difference.

As for American beer, when we were in New York we found a microbrewery bar smack in the middle of midtown Manhattan, right under the skyscrapers that brewed a superb pint of bitter on site. I can't remember the name right now but was in the vicinity of 56/57th Street and Broadway. So it's not all Duff!

Subject: RE: Draught Guinness
From: GUEST,Folkiedave
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:52 AM

Johnny Handle used to tell the story of how gnats - I think it was went down a sooty well - and were frightened by something (can´t remember what it was now). Anyway the resultant mixture of gnat´s piss and soot became Guinness.

Geordie Folk Tale.

Non-better.