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Most Influential Album?
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Subject: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 09 Dec 05 - 04:16 PM BBC Radio 2 is conducting an audiene vote for the "Most Influential Folk Album of All Time." They're asking about the album that has has the greatest impact on the UK folk Revival. This leads me to think about the same question in North America. What are your nominations? Here are some of mine: The Weavers at Carnegie Hall -- Arguably, this was the LP that started the sixties revival. It was the first popular mainstream album by folk group without the pop arrangements of the Weavers' earlier records on Decca. The Art of the Five-String Banjo (Billy Faier) -- This was the first time anybody recorded a five-string banjo doing anything but either stringband music or Pete Seeger-style song accompaniment. It opened a lot of ears to the idea that there were other things one could do with traditional instruments. In My Life (Judy Collins) -- Art songs as folk music. Opened up the folksingers' repertoire to a whole other world of songs. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 09 Dec 05 - 04:33 PM The Weaver at Carnegie Hall is a good choice. Gibson and Camp at the Gate of Horn would have to be another one too. Freewheelin' Bob Dylan ? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: pdq Date: 09 Dec 05 - 04:56 PM The Billy Faier record is an interesting choice. Another album that opened up the minds of many people to the banjo was "New Dimensions in Banjo and Bluegrass" by Eric Weissberg and Marshall Brickman. That was also the recording debut of Clarence White who expanded hot flatpickin' in the California music scene. "New Dimensions..." is actually available (in a thinly disguised version) as the "Dueling Banjos" album. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Martin gibson Date: 09 Dec 05 - 05:01 PM OK, the Purists/elitists can howl all they want, but The Kingston Trio's first album with Tom Dooley sold over a million records, put guitars in thousands of hands, was the first time many had ever heard a banjo, caused a sensation for a whole generation on college campuses at the time, and opened up North America's eyes to their own tradional music. Everything else is really mice nuts in comparion. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bobad Date: 09 Dec 05 - 05:04 PM Peter Paul and Mary's first album popularized folk music and was the first exposure many of us had to it. It included "Five Hundred Miles", "Lemon Tree", "Where Have All the Flowers Gone", and the hit Pete Seeger tune "If I Had a Hammer", ("The Hammer Song.") The album was listed on Billboard Magazine Top Ten list for ten months and in the Top One Hundred for over three years. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Janie Date: 09 Dec 05 - 05:06 PM I gotta go with Martin on this one. Janie |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Martin gibson Date: 09 Dec 05 - 06:04 PM Trouble with your pick bobad, is that without the Kingston trio, there would be no Peter, Paul, and Mary. I'll bet they will even admit to that. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bobad Date: 09 Dec 05 - 06:21 PM I agree with you MG. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 09 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM By the same standard that says the Kingston Trio's first LP was most influential, would that mean that the most influential British folk album should be "Lonnie Donnegan's Greatest Hits?" |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Severn Date: 09 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM On a smaller scale, to a smaller parish, the first New Lost City Ramblers LP sent a lot of folks scrambling for old 78's and looking for roots they didn't know they had. On a larger scale, though, how many local libraries had copies of Harry Smith's Anthology Of American Folk Music on Folkways that sent people scrambling in all sorts of directions in a frenzy of rediscovery. The Weavers begat the Kingston Trio begat PP&M, but the Anthology got a lot of us looking for the real thing or at least what we percieved as such. All are important in pointing folks somewhere from where they could seek further. How important depends on which directions you ultimately took. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Dec 05 - 08:35 PM All of the above are good nominations. I was tremendously influenced by most of them, starting with the Weavers, thence to the Kingston Trio, a rather brief interest in PPM, thence to Joan Baez, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Ian & Sylvia, Judy Collins, Leonard Cohen, and finally Mr Bob Dylan. In the end, Baez, Buffy, and Bob were the heavy hitters for me...but that is not to deny the tremendous initial impact of the Weavers, the Kingston Trio, and PPM. Each one led to the next. I was, however, unaware of Lonnie Donnegan, since he was over in the UK and I was in North America. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: pdq Date: 09 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM In the US, Lonnie Donnegan is best known for causing a precipitous drop in the sales of chewing gum. He also caused great distress among parents who had to stop their kids from putting beans in their ears. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: dick greenhaus Date: 09 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM Well, until Burl Ives "The Wayfaring Stranger", there was NO widely distributed folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bobert Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:18 PM Well, I've al;lready stated that I thought that the Pozo Seco Singres blew botht the Weaver and the K-Triom outta the water but... ... Hey, to me, it was early Dylan stuff... Yeah I ain't 60 yet so I'm comin' in from more of a 60's perspective here but, hey, I din't ask the qurstion so... yeah, there were a lot of folkies who meant a lot to me and theie LP's are still in my collection... Yeah, I liked Simon & Garfunkle, and Joni Mitchell, and Bob Martin, and Happy and Artie Traum, and Neil Young.... ... But the LP that meant the most to me was XSpooky Tooth's Last Puff"... Man, did they rock it out 'er what??? But since my Spookie Tooth days I have mellowed somewhat. Okay, not much 'cause Spookym Tooth still gets me going but olf Lightnin' Hopkins, Elmore James, Son House gets me going these days.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:20 PM The Most Influential Album is the Official Visitors Guest Book at the White House. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:26 PM Gotta go with Dick Greenhaus on this one. Burl Ives had a radio program in the mid-Forties, appeared in a movie or two (e.g., "Smoky," 1946) as a folk singer, then started coming out with records. As far as most people were concerned, he was Mr Folk Music until the Weavers' records hit radios and juke boxes in 1949. That was when folk songs first made the charts. A fair number of people, such as Walt Robertson, Sandy Paton, and (ahem) me, first got interested in folk music. The Gateway Singers frankly modeled themselves after the Weavers. Then along came Harry Belefonte, introducing a wider audience to folk music (albeit in fairly slicked-up arrangements) and Calypso. Harry Belafonte's big hit in the mid-Fifties was Kingston Farewell. It's not for nothing that the group that suddenly burst on the market in 1958 called themselves "The Kingston Trio." True, they introduced a lot of people to folk music, but had it not been for the increasing popularity of the preceding individuals and groups, the KT might never have been. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:50 AM Contenders in the UK? First Clancy's & Tommy Makem, first Dubliners, Frost and Fire - The Watersons, Lots of albums by Seeger & McColl,all early Carthy & Swarb. Deep Lancashire - Harry Boardman and friends, first Highlevel Ranters? Early Shirley and Dolly Collins? Then a bit later Prosperous - Christy Moor, Please to see the King -Steeleye, Early Fairport, Morris On, that first album by Oak (Welcome to our Fair?) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: sharyn Date: 10 Dec 05 - 04:03 AM I heard Burl Ives on my grandparents' ten-inch records (we had three of them) and Bob Atcher and Terry Gylkenson(sp?) long before I ever heard of The Weavers or Pete Seeger or The New Lost City Ramblers. I heard Burl Ives and the others as a child of two in 1960 and probably knew all of the songs by age eight. Susan Reed was another early singer we had records of -- on Decca, I think, not Elektra, a great thick black record with a green label -- no, not Decca, Columbia: Songs of the Auvergne with "folk songs" on the other side. I think maybe your folks had to be a bit red for you to hear The Weavers and Seeger -- or was that an East Coast thing? The Kingston Trio came way later and were not an improvement in my humble opinion. But I don't know who was influencing other people in 1960 or before. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,DB Date: 10 Dec 05 - 05:40 AM 'Les in Chorlton' - excellent choices - but then you went and spoiled it by writing the dread words 'Steeleye Span' ... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Kenneth Ingham Date: 10 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM The Dubliners, Donovan, Finbar & Eddie, Dando Shaft, Fairport Convention, Strawbs, Bert Jansch all of these people and more were part of the folk revolution in Englan & Ireland in the 1960's and early '70s Ifluential Albums: Dubliners & Luke Kelly 1964 Bert Jansch 1965 Sophisticated Beggar 1966 Finbar & Eddie Furey 1968 What We Did On Our Holidays 1969 Strawbs 1969 An Evening With Dando Shaft 1970 Also: "It's All About" by SPOOKY TOOTH worth it for their version of Janis Ian's "Societies Child" |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: fat B****rd Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:02 AM Ray Charles In Person. Moanin At Midnight (Howlin Wolf. Chuck Berry's Greatest Hits. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM Ok DB I almost never play Steeleye any more although Hark the Village, the first album with Gay and Terry Woods is still well worth a listen as Storm Force 10 with John K on melodeon. But I have to say that 'Please to see' was influencial in that lots of trad. got electric and amplified after they showed the way. I suppose some might say a bad influence but a whole genre exists now that includes Whapweasel and The Demon Barbers. I suppose Fairport were the real originators whilst Steeleye played more (in quantity)trad songs and tunes. Chuck Berry and Little Richard - just the most important people in music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,DB Date: 10 Dec 05 - 01:40 PM 'Les in C', I suppose I just don't like mixing genres ('comedy thrillers/westerns' etc. - yuck!). It seems to me that the trouble with Steeleye is that they had a really fantastic repertoire but then went and spoiled it with those electric guitars. Also, in my opinion, blending traditional song and rock music just leads to more rock music - and our culture is saturated with the stuff already - do we really need any more? I suppose the ambition was to bring trad music 'up to date' - and I was never very happy with the result. I'm sure that a large percentage of their fans still think that they 'wrote' those songs! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Dec 05 - 02:04 PM Hmmm. The various choices tell as much about the chooser, as they tell about the album chosen. I guess I'd say it was that first PP&M album that opened the door for me - I learned about the Kingston Trio and the Weavers and all those others later, mostly after I got into college in 1966. My dad bought a record player and five albums for us in 1961, and that PP&M album was the one I liked best. The others were budget Broadway recordings by the 10001 Strings and the like. What can I say?-Dad was cheap. But anyhow, I think people who chose Burl Ives and the Weavers and the Kingston Trio must be considerably older than I am, and I take some consolation in that. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: greg stephens Date: 10 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM UK: first Lonnie Donegan, first Watersons. USA: not so up on the nuances of SAmerican follk revival, but Kingston Trio(dont know which LP) and Dylan's Freewheelin, for a guess. THis is on the assumption we are purely talking about influence on the folk revival. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM Good point DB. I got bored with Steeleye and their is a danger of everything turning into rock. The Irish seem to do these things so much better. The progression, no value judgements implied, from the source singers through Clancy's, Dubliners, Cheiftains, Planxty and and and and and seems to sound great and fresh without loosing the basic nature of the music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: DebC Date: 10 Dec 05 - 02:52 PM Anne Briggs |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:12 PM Personal list: Bothy Band 1st album Planxty 1st album Chieftains 3 Tommy Potts, 'The Liffey Banks' Boys of the Lough 1st Liege & Lief 'Hark The Village Wait', Steeleye 'Pour Down Like Silver', Richard and Linda Thompson 'Kind of Blue', Miles Davis (play it after any of the above and you'll see what I mean) 'A Love Supreme', John Coltrane Etc, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM Joe Offer gets close here with the age thing. Burl Ives is an influential zero to I would think most baby boomers. The Weavers heyday kind of predates our record buying coming of age also. The facts about the Kingston Trio to these acts is almost night and day. The Trio sold considerably more albums and were by far one of the top acts in album sales from the late 1950s in to the arly 1960s. Burl Ives and The Weavers by comparison sold nowhere near the albums. Albums, not singles, exposed people to usually 12 songs at one time. The newer technology of the LP compared to singles alone exposed potential folk music lovers to more songs, plain and simple. Just by sheer numbers of the baby boomers compared to their predessor generation who felt the Weavers and old Burl were the folk music "it", the Kingston Trio plain and simple reached a considerably larger record buying and influenced public. I am not discounting the Weavers as having an influence on the Kingston trio, but the Weavers did not create or play any part in the great folk "scare." The Kingston Trio created and sold more albums that influenced literally every record label to come out with their folk group, Peter, Paul, and Mary not withstanding. Keep in mind, Tom dooley won the grammy award in 1958 for best country and western song. Why, because folk music was not even a genre of it's own until them. That's influence. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 10 Dec 05 - 03:29 PM One last thing. I am talking about most influential album in a folk music sense as this is a folk music web site. Not necessarily the most influential artist or group. That distinction is a category in itself, of which from what I have read, The Carter Family would be the most logical choice. I am talking purely as a musicologist and not at all citing any list or personal favorites. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Dec 05 - 05:49 PM Pete Seeger live at Carnegie? OK I am pulling out the really important ones now: The Spinners, Folk at the Phil? Josh White? Anything by the Lomaxs' |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:26 PM >the Weavers did not create or play any part in the great >folk "scare." Martin, that is just flat wrong. Within the folk revival, the Weavers were hugely influential. They laid the foundation for almost everything that followed them,including the singer-songwriters, the folk groups and even the urban singers who learned their traditional repertiore at the foot of their parent's record players. In terms of the long-term folk revival, the Kingston Trio and all those other groups wearing matching shirts that followed them were a temporary diversion rather than a long-term influence. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Dec 05 - 06:38 PM MY most influential folk album is An Englishman Sings American Folk Songs by Lonnie Donegan. While it certainly wasn't THE most influential album in this country it did have a strong impact. At least Lonnie did with Rock Island Line. Lonnie took the "precious" out of folk music and made it attractive to people who liked rockabilly and early rock and roll. Remember, Lonnie used electric guitar while Dylan was still in diapers. And I agree, there is an age diferential in here. I'm surprised that no one has said Mudcat Slim by James Taylor, yet. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 10 Dec 05 - 07:02 PM Paul Simon Song Book Owdham Edge - The Owdham Tinkers Jaqui and Bridie That Album of Sea songs by everybody who was anybody and nobody That album of Mining songs by The Ian Cambell Folk Group A Laugh, a song and a hand grenade Leon rosselson and Adram mitchell Pentangle? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Sandy Mc Lean (lost cookie) Date: 10 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM Most influential album? Hmmmmmmmmmm I remember the days when albums were much less important than singles. New releases were on 45's or even 78's first heard on air or on the jukebox. If you liked it you rushed out to buy a copy. Albums came along as a collection of the performers old releases. That being said, The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makim's "Rising Of the Moon" had the most influence on me personally . Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: leftydee Date: 10 Dec 05 - 11:47 PM The Kingston Trio is a good call, Martin. They certainly caught my attention first, which lead me to Dylan eventually, who gave me my first chance to think. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Dec 05 - 03:57 AM I am surprised that so many people mention the Kingston Trio and PPM and not the field recordings by the Lomaxs'. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: van lingle Date: 11 Dec 05 - 07:59 AM For me it was Joan Baez' first two albums which got me interested in guitar and English, Scottish and American ballads. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Lancashire Lad Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:36 AM A few UK suggestions Davy Graham - Folk Blues and Beyond Anne Briggs - S/T Shirley and Dolly Collins - Anthems in Eden ISB - Hangmans Beautiful Daughter Pentangle - S/T Nick Drake - 5 Leaves Left Archie Fisher - S/T Watersons - S/T Young Tradition - S/T Martin Carthy - S/T Lonnie Donnegan - Showcase Every one a gem! Cheers LL |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:53 AM Most influencial folk album for me ... Bert Jansch 1st album "Bert Jansch". I should also mention .. Bob Dylan's "Freewheelin" Gordon Lightfoot's "Lightfoot" sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:23 AM Favourites, excellent or influencial? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Severn Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM Which Pete Seeger album? Just pretend you forgot the title and just say,"I dunno, the LIVE one!" Close enough. Just for the art of working an audience. The first Clancy Brothers album I heard through my oldest (pre-War sister) got me much deeper into the Celtic thing. Besides, they had four distinct voices and personalities, something too many of the folk "groups" lacked. (Why from all that stuff I pretty much outgrew, The Limelighters always had it over the Kingston Trio, whose individual personalities never seemed to matter-but that's a separate thread still out there for the world Folk Music Association folks and others that still rabidly care). Also, through my oldest sister, some Josh White records pointed me towards the Blues, but when I first heard John Hurt's Ontario Place live recordings and Skip James's "Devil Got My Woman" on Vanguard, they really set the hook. And growing up in Washington DC, local performances and the Folkways records by the Country Gentlemen got me interested in Bluegrass and good ol' King 615 simply called "The Stanley Brothers & The Clinch Mountain Boys (blue cover, "She's More to Be Pitied" & "Think Of What you've Done" inside), bought used for a buck fifty, got me addicted to the "Hard Stuff", and where in other things, you'd say "I never looked back.", we're dealing with folk music here! I LOOKED back and forward as well, as with all these other genres already mentioned. (The image of a folkie's head back then discovering new things must've been the inspiration for the famous Linda Blair scene in "The Excorcist"). But again, we're not talking nescessarily about favorites here, but things that got us pointed to wherever our heads reside today. Stuff you still listen to today and thingd now left behind or regarded as "Guilry Pleasures". Local and college radio shows that spun individual cuts, would be another good, but related thread, 'cause just one look was sometimes all it took!. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Abby Sale Date: 11 Dec 05 - 12:14 PM Martin & Dick: You've mentioned the Carters & I think they were wildly influential - and Dalhart before them. Huge. But I put what I did vote for (pointlessly, I'm sure) at the BBC site. I'm dead sure that "The Anthology" has to be it. If it's relatively small in total sales & if people keep coming up with "better examples" it must be counted as putting all the people and styles out there in one place. A masterful collection. What it did do is deeply influence the people who influenced the people who influenced the people. I can't think how many artists, song tracks, jump-off points, etc trace directly back to Harry Smith's American Folk Music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: sharyn Date: 11 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM If we get back to the original question which is what was the most influential folk album in the folk revival of North America, what I say is that the cited albums by The Weavers and Pete Seeger never crossed my path -- it wasn't until "Wasn't That a Time" came out that I ever heard The Weavers, although I had heard of them -- one of their songbooks made its way into our house sometime during my childhood, but no one used it much. So, while Seeger's and The Weavers' albums may have been highly influential they did not penetrate here on the West Coast, in California, in the Bay Area, in a household where we bought albums but did not listen to the radio. Joan Baez albums made it in, and Odetta, and the Peter, Paul and Mary concert album, and, way before that, as I have said, recordings by Burl Ives, Bob Atcher and Susan Reed. I first went to see Joan Baez locally when I was a teenager here just north of Berkeley. When I went to camp at the age of ten in 1968 all of the counselors with guitars were singing Peter, Paul and Mary arrangements -- I didn't know that at the time, I learned later that that is where all of that stuff had come from: "The Cruel War" and "You Take a Stick of Bamboo" and "Five Hundred Miles." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Dec 05 - 02:24 PM Sorry, failed to read the first post carefully, I may not be the first to do that. Still, where did the Kingston Trio, PPM et al get their songs from? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 02:49 PM I think a lot of people who were just kids or teenagers in the late Fifties or early Sixties tend to think that the first folk song (or folk-like song) they heard on the radio that stuck in their ear was the most influential record because that's what introduced them to folk music (sort of like baby ducks imprinting on the first thing they see when they come out of the shell. If it's one of the farm dogs, they'll follow it around, thinking that the dog is their mother). This was the most influential record for them, but not necessarily the most influential as far as broader trends are concerned. My introduction to folk music was from listening to some of the "Radio School of the Air" programs that Alan Lomax did in the late Thirties when I was barely more than a rug-rat. When I first heard Burl Ives on the radio in the Forties, I'd heard some of the songs he sang before (on the Lomax programs). Same with when I saw Susan Reed in a movie called "Glamour Girl" in 1948. Not a great movie by any means, but lots of folk songs sung by the lovely Susan Reed. Then came the Weavers with their first (right around '49). I remember hearing Pete Seeger (other than the lead singer of the Weavers, I had no idea of who he was at the time) quoted as saying that the Weavers wanted to introduce the American people to their own folk music. I remember thinking, "That sounds kind of pretentious. I've already been introduced." I was thinking of the Lomax programs, plus Ives and Reed. I didn't actually pick up a guitar and start to learn songs until around my second year in college, where I met people like Walt Robertson, Sandy Paton, and a half-dozen others who had already been at it for a few years. This was in 1952. As to the Kingston Trio, they did indeed introduce a lot of people to folk music—I have to give them credit for that—but they were surfing on the crest of a wave that a lot of other people had built up well before they came along. And apart from accompanying themselves on guitars and banjos, their performances were essentially just another flavor of popular music. There were a lot of similar groups around at the time, and if it hadn't been them, a month or two later it would have been some other very similar sounding group. Their commercial success, of course, spawned even more sound-alike groups. Their whole manner of presentation also moved that particular way of performing folk music into the position where it was vulnerable to the vagaries of the popular music business, one of which was that, after a half-dozen years, it wore itself out as far as the teeny-boppers were concerned. [Interesting statistic from that era: 85¢ out of every dollar spent on music records of all kinds was spent by girls between the ages of twelve and seventeen. That's who controlled the recording industry!] Said teeny-boppers then turned their attention to the next big wave: the Beatles and the rest of the British Invasion in the mid-Sixties. At which point, a lot of people assumed that folk music had "died." But as Mark Twain said about the reports of his death, ". . . greatly exaggerated!" A lot of people who had been doing folk music long before the Kingston Trio came along simply went underground and kept at it. At the same time, while a lot of the people who took up guitars and such in the early Sixties, more interested in commercial success than the kind of music they played, switched from folk music to rock, while others (including some first inspired by the Kingston Trio and who dug a bit deeper than what they had first heard) stuck with folk music. There are a lot more people performing folk music now, both professionally and for fun (two motivations which are definitely not mutually exclusive), than there were at the peak of "The Great Folk Scare" in the early Sixties. That's history, folks. Being one of The Ancient Ones, I was there at the time and watched it happen. There are a number of good books on the subject, one of which When We Were Good : The Folk Revival by Robert Cantwell (a rather turgid writer who, with the use of colons, semicolons, and parenthetical phrases, can make a sentence run on for three pages or more ("Not unlike you, Firth!" I just heard someone say). Another is Romancing the Folk : Public Memory and American Roots Music by Benjamin Filene. This latter is especially good. Very informative and highly readable. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: fat B****rd Date: 11 Dec 05 - 03:57 PM Whooops !! Like a couple of my worthy fellow contributors I simply skipped through the actual essence of the first post. Mind you i certainly stand by my 3 LP choices. But I forgot the Pye International Blues releases of 63-65. Interesting thread, mind you. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Katgirl Date: 11 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM Hi folks! Here's a first from me. Well most influential album? I think it's got to be the first Planxty album (in the UK at least). Why? It defined a whole way of ensemble playing which never existed before and has influenced just about everybody since eg Bothy Band,De Dannan, Battlefield Band - the list is practically endless, in celtic music and beyond. Prior to that, nobody had played stringed instruments in as subtle a way in traditional music. The bouzouki revolution started here. Why Mike Harding (Radio 2 Folk Show, UK) thought The Dransfields' Rout of the Blues was the most influential folk album of all time is beyond me (and probably lots of other people). What do you all think? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: ard mhacha Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:03 PM I go along with most of Chris B`s selections, Sandy McClain I also agree with on the Clancys and Makem`s first disc, also find myself agreeing with Les from Chorlton`s points of view, I notice that the US Catters don`t stray to far from home. The Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary wouldn`t be my idea of folk, speaking for myself they were closer to Pop than Folk, in comparison the first Planxty Album would have been out of sight in everything that is good in traditional music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:25 PM Ard, what can I say, The point in the end is about working people singing songs about the lives they lived or the lives that were lived or the lives they wanted to live. That is why Woody, Pete, McColl and Seeger but most of all the Lomaxes' in the states are so crucial. They identified and collected black/working class music and said just listen to this! Lets have music that we care about and not just music that will sell. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 11 Dec 05 - 05:34 PM johnross, I stick by my guns that The Weavers had very little part in the great folk scare as they were not selling many records, were really part of a previous generation's music and quite frankly were just not hip for the gigantic wave of folk music popularity. I well knew that my astute nomination of The First Kingston Trio album would rankle a few elitist/purists who bark about the Lomax Field recordings. Fact is, no one much cared about anything the Lomax's did until people realized that there was such a thing as folk music to check out and explore. Most of the field recordings by the Lomax's were great for research but featured much authentic braying that was unlistenable. Burl Ives was hardly a tradionalist. Don Firth talks about the vagaries of the way folk music was performed by such acts as the Kingston Trio with some extreme aloofness and snobbishness of popular music that shows much about his personality. He is completely out of touch thinking that tenny boppers bought the records of the era. Albums/LPs were more expensive then singles and that is what we are talking about here. It was the college crowd who did and formed groups and sang and played and pursued other areas of folk music. Again, I do not perceive this thread as to what was someone's personal choice for their own influence, but what was the Most Influential album in all of folk music. Knowing the snobbishness of most purist/elitists, it is obvious that they will never give credit to ones such as the Kingston Trio who put more folk music in people's ears then anyone else preceeding them. We're talking about what influenced the most people and yes, the mainstream of society. Not a few curious museum types. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 11 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM Admire your .... not quite sure what to call it ........ passion? Yes I recognise your passion we need much more of that. But who's music did the Kingston Trio and PPM actually sing? Muddy Waters? No, but just here him, Huddy and Woody and know what people can say to each other............... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Severn Date: 11 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM "The Weavers at Carnegie Hall" on Vanguard, because my pre-War sister had it, turned me around before The Kingston Trio ever got there as a little kid, and got me listening to groups Kingston Trio-type groups in my adolescence, and later the more traditional stuff I listen to now. The earlier Decca-era Weavers material left me cold when I finally listened to it, but I wasn't listening to it in its time, with its early fifties referrence points. I can still put on a Wwevers record today much easier than I can a Kingston Trio., but if I'd have come in a few years later.... The choice depends a lot on when you started listening and if you had an older mentor or just the radio and your contemporaries. And where you went to listen. The Kingston Trio got to a lot of people aware of the music and would be a good choice on the basis of sales, as would PP&M and Baez to those later on. The Harry Smith Anthology was in few homes but was in many public libraries, where kids went to study and were sampled by the curious. The Lomax recordings, while the later ones were available on Prestige and Atlantic and the international ones on Columbia, were not as widely distributed in the libraries, piecemeal if at all, and a lot of the singers who used them often referred to going to someplace like The Library Of Congress itself to sample them. It is only in recent years with the Rounder reissues that any issuing of the Lomax materials that was either comprehensive or made historical sense, so there's no one recording out of the bunch that could be singled out assingularly as affective as The Harry Smith Anthology was. Parallels could be drawn, I'm sure, with the traditional collections of source singers form the British Isles, or the piecemeal issuing Of Edith Fowke's Canadian field recordings. The title of this thread referrs to "Album" specifically, and what single collection of any country's source singers were as readily accessible to the masses as was Smith's? Smith and the Kingston Trio and Ives all in their own way constitute a general approach, while The Carter Family, The Clancys, The New Lost City Ramblers and some of the others cited pointed to specific aspects of the music. So in the end it boils down to approach, either by the era in which you fell into the music and what influenced you, or by historical lineage, sales figures or the most heads turned? And would you look at the Smith anthology as the text for the advanced course, like one teaching about Rock & Roll to a beginner would not start with Hendrix over Chuck Berry to gain a basic undrestanding. (A difference in teaching methods of forward motion in one instance and backward motion in another, but you get the picture, I hope). All time was specified in the initial post. It's "influential" that must be defined in perspective to make final sense of this, if ever possible. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM Les in Chorlton: The question is not who's music did the Kingston Trio sing. The question is what was folk music's most influential album. At least that is the way I perceive it. This thread could go on forever as to what everyone's most influential album was, because there are many personal tastes and preferences. BTW, it really wasn't the Kingston Trio's first album for me, it was really a first album released by Waylong Jennings in 1966 on RCA called "Folk-Country." My arguement is that because the Kingston Trio's first Capitol Album which was self-titled sold well over a million copies, considerably more than any other before or since, that it exposed more people to American folk msuic and hence, is the most influencial folk music related album of all time. sorry purists, much of you started there and you know it. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:17 PM Say what you like about my "snobbishness," Marty, but you were still in diapers when all of this was going on. "[Interesting statistic from that era: 85¢ out of every dollar spent on music records of all kinds was spent by girls between the ages of twelve and seventeen. That's who controlled the recording industry!]" That's not something I made up, that's a statistic that was put out by the recording industry itself. Look it up. I stand by everything I wrote. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM I'd have to go along with Martin on this one. Individual songs like Rock Island Line (I seriously doubt that it primarily sold to 12 year old girls) jolted the musical landscape, as did Wimoweh by the Weavers a few years earlier. But for albums? The only other artist I could argue in favor of would be Bob Dylan's first album. Whether one or the other album was most influential probably is more dependent on how old you were when they came out than anything else. The other key album that introduced me to folk music (which was certainly not widely enough purchased to be "most influential" was Bob Ginson's I Come For To Sing. While Gibson was far more respected in the folk community, the album cover looked as college-oriented, cool white-kid as any Kingston Trio album. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:37 PM I highly recommend reading Romancing the Folk by Benjamin Filene, the second book I linked to (on Amazon) above. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM Don, flaunting your advanced age is a weak arguement. 12-17 year old girls were not buying Sinatra who outsold many others in that era also. And I certainly wasn't in diapers! I remember very well hearing Tom Dooley for the first time and was learning to play guitar shortly after that like other Boomers. As a member of the Lost generation, Don it's obvious why you continuously find it hard to relate to such as large a group of most others who post here. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM Abuse is the refuge of the uncertain. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 11 Dec 05 - 09:01 PM First thing most who lose an arguement or need an excuse cry, Don. You can dish it out, but take it pretty poorly. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 09:28 PM You're missing the point, Marty. It was the teeny-boppers whose purchases of whatever happened to be the current rage (which often changed from week to week) who subsidized everything from classical music to most pop music, including Frank Sinatra. Yes, the millions of 45s bought every week by girls in their early adolescence amounted to one helluva lot of money. Much more than most people imagine. These kids had power! As I said, I didn't make that figure up. I see no point in debating verifiable facts. The first recordings the Weavers made, the ones first heard on radios and juke boxes, containing their first hit songs like Wimoweh and Goodnight Irene, were pretty crappy because of the orchestral (Gordon Jenkins' arrangements) backing, but they were something new and different to a lot of people. That's why they became hits. This was before they were blacklisted. But when they did the "Weavers at Carnegie Hall" live concert album, they'd shed the orchestra and its slicked-up arrangements, and were self-accompanied. That was one fantastic album, showed what they could really do, and turned a lot of people on. And at the risk of repeating myself, the Kingston Trio was surfing a wave that was generated by previous singers and groups such as the Weavers and their clone, the Gateway Singers. Now, I liked the Kingston Trio. And I have seen them in live performance. But I have no delusions about their position in the whole grand scheme of things. Nor am I so ego-involved that I have to keep beating a dead horse. I'm just saying it like it was. [End of debate.] Read a book! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:39 PM No, Don, not end of debate as you have completely missed the point. The Weavers at carnegie Hall did not sell anywhere near a million records causing virtually every record label to find a competing group. It had no hit singles and probably very little airplay due to the short amount of time since their McCarthy era blacklisting. It had virtually no impact on sales of guitars by Martin, Gibson, Harmony, Kay, and shortly after, a whole group of Japanese imports. There were virtually no college concerts of folk music before the Kingston Trio's first album. That is because it influenced and reached so many more people. So, it was the power of radio. So what. I am not saying that the Weavers were not important. They were. but your snobbish biasness toward them continues to have you miss the point that they, in the long run, due to the much smaller audience that they appealled to compared to the boomer generation, that ALBUM was not as influential to the years after The Kingston trio's first album sold more than a million copies exposing the greatest amount of individuals ever to folk music. So go back to the drawing board, and go read another Archie comic book. The oldie stations today are not playing Goodnight Irene or On Top of Old Smokie, but they still do play Tom Dooley because it ushered in the folk music era for oh so many. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM One of these days I'm going to learn not to waste my time debating with someone whose mind is made up and all the facts in the world won't make a dent. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Dec 05 - 12:05 AM Burl Ives |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:16 AM lonnie Donnegan made an impact with singles rather than albums. I think albums must have happened a bit later in England - us being a bit poorer. I suppose The Stones and The Beatles were the first albums that were really popular objects of desire - introduced us to Berry, Carl Perkins. Only very hip people had the Clancy Brothers albums in England - university types. First influential folk albums in England - Dylan and the Jansch blue album. The Watersons, Martin Carthy, the Young Tradition, the Dubliners all seemed part of a general explosion. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: concertina ceol Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:33 AM In the UK it's got to be 'Morris On' as this exposed a lot of new people to morris tunes who then became involved in morris and traditional dance. It's these people who came into the scene in the 1970's who are the main movers in keeping the folk scene going now. Honourably mention to Planxty, and I will cheat by saying "The Collection" which is a composite of the first 3 albums :-) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:38 AM I said, in my old column for Come For To Sing magazine out of Chicago, many of the good things being said here about the influence of "BILLY FAIR'S -- THE ART OF THE FIVE STRING BANJO" album on Riverside Records. That was World Music on a 5-string banjo for the first time that I know of. Every cut was an excursion into experimental territory. And one-time Weaver--Mudcatter, FRANK HAMILTON was Mr. Faier's guitar backup on that LP. It preceeded, and may have laid the groundwork for, DON RENO and then BILL KEITH to put fast melody line finger picked fiddle tunes into the Scruggs style of bluegrass banjo picking. PETE SEEGER'S early ten inch LP for Folkways Records called THE GOOFING OFF SUITE, also showed this new direction that was being explored by urban dwelling banjo pickers. BILLY FAIER sent me a very nice note for mentioning my feelings about his influence in my article about the Winnipeg Folk Festival fter returning from my gig there that year---1970 I think. M.G.---This is not at all intended to be an attack on what, after all, is only your opinion. This is just my opinion. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: ard mhacha Date: 12 Dec 05 - 01:37 PM Lads and Lassies it all depends on what Folk Clubs you frequented in the past, in all of my time going to many Folk Clubs and pub sessions in the north of Ireland, I never heard anyone singing any of The Kingston Trios stuff or any of the other US performers songs. The fact is, at that time, we had songs and music galore, and we performed our own ageless music, no doubt the US Clubs and sessions were listening to their own music and i`m sure getting as much pleasure as we did, but there was a hidden world to the outsider in Irish music that was appreciated by those who were brought up in that environment. We took to The Bothy Band, Planxty, and others who brought the great music to us without distorting the basic lilt. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:16 PM Art, I am familiar with the works you mentioned and yest they had influence. I had read that Dave Guard had taken some banjo lessons from Billy Fair. However, these can not be considered MOST influential as to I would think to many, they are quite obscure. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:30 PM Sergent Pepper's Lonely Submarine on Abby Road
All folk - all 1,4,5 - with Milton Burl's Scrugged banjo-neck replaced by electronics and Robby's sitar.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM Martin - are you OK? Thought you were "banned" by the band, or bored with the whored; was never sure on your departure.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:39 PM I am just fine, oh gargling one. I took a hiatus for a while, then was urged by many to come back to speak my volumes of truth. It's nice to be loved, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: ard mhacha Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:05 AM Martin, for an insight into the hidden world of the Gael, click on to Keith of Hereford`s Thread on Donal Og and listen to the poetry in this song, you will be impressed. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:50 AM lonnie donegan? - how can i take this forum seriously? Wasn't he that white middle class wanker who stole a bunch of leadbelly songs and claimed they were his? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:10 AM Lonnie Donegan was always greeted with derision, where I came from in the UK he was never taken seriously. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Folk f`er Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:17 AM His classic,-My old man`s a Dust man-, I know what you mean by taking him seriously. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Judge Mental Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:03 AM BILLY FAIER sent me a very nice note for mentioning my feelings about his influence in my article about the Winnipeg Folk Festival fter returning from my gig there that year---1970 I think. Art, The first Winnipeg Folk Festival was in 1974, so the gig was definitely not in 1970. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:31 AM One might argue that the greatest influence on folk music was that of the recording companies, Folkways Records, Moses Asch, Stinson, Riverside and the folk divisions of the larger recording companies, Decca (Burl Ives), RCA Victor, Columbia and later Vanguard, Elektra. I can't judge what was the most influential album on folk music itself, but the most influential on me was a single recording of 'The Martins and the Coys' played and sung by the older brother of a schoolmate in the thirties. The rhythm and lilt of the music led me to listen to folk music on the radio, notable Josef Marais' 'Sundown on the Veldt' and years later when I could afford it to purchase early albums: American Songbag, Carl Sandburg, Musicraft Wayfaring Stranger, Burl Ives, Decca Ballads of a 20th Century Minstrel, Dyer-Benet, Stinson Early American Folk Songs, Bob Atcher, Columbia Birds, Beasts, Bugs and Little Fishes, P.Seeger Folkways Harlem Blues, Josh White, Musicraft Negro Sinful Songs, Leadbelly, Musicraft Folk Songs and Ballads, 2 vol., Susan Reed, Victor Most of these are 78 albums, usually four two-sided records to an album, some I have been able to transcribe to cassettes over the years but most now unplayable. I think the quest for the most influential album is like looking for the Holy Grail. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Guest, cetmst Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM That elusive cookie is gone again, previous posting (9:31 AM) was mine - Charles |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM As far as I know LD did not pass off other people's songs as his own. Like most people coming to the folk and blues tradition he had great respect for the people and their music. He changed some songs and I believe that too is part of the tradition. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM I wonder where that was in the UK that Lonnie was greeted with derision. Whenever I saw him, onlookers were just about kissing the hem of his garments. Whilst everybody else in England from Marin Carthy to The Beatles, and Martin Guitars over in America honoured him and spoke respectfully of his contribution - turns out there was some sad little dump in England where they derided him. Good to know that. do you get invited to be a GUEST many places? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:34 PM Just to clarify what I really said that Martin Gibson misinterpreted when his knee started to jerk in his eagerness to say something insulting about me (a hobby of his): When I used the term "vagaries" (def: erratic, unpredictable behavior), I was referring to the recording industry, not the Kingston Trio's performance. I don't see how the word could apply in the manner in which Marty seems to think I meant it, which indicates to me that he either doesn't read very carefully or that he needs a good dictionary. Guard, Shane, and Reynolds were all good musicians, and the Kingston Trio's arrangements were well worked out and showed a good measure of creativity. Indeed, to my mind, their renditions of some songs were the best ones out. For example, their arrangements of some of the songs Pete Seeger first introduced, such as "Guantanamera" and "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" were excellently arranged and done beautifully and with sensitivity. I believe that Seeger himself praised them for this. I do not consider the Kingston Trio to be lightweights. But at the same time, other than exposing a lot people to folk songs for the first time, in the long run, they were not that influential. Where the vagaries I spoke of come in are with the recording industry, and shortly thereafter the television networks (the early-Sixties proliferation of "Hootenannies" and "Shindigs," featuring mostly pop-folk groups), who smelled money in the air, saw the trend and, like a lot of politicians, said "The people are going that way, and I am their leader!" then ran like hell to get out in front. The Kingston Trio came on the scene at a fortunate time for both themselves and the record industry. The subsequent success of similar groups, also pushed by the record industry (The Brothers Four, The Limeliters, the New Christy Minstels, et al), attest to this. Had it not been the Kingston Trio, it would have been one of these other groups, because the field had been ripened for this sort of thing by Burl Ives, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Susan Reed, Odetta (first album 1953), the Weavers, Harry Belafonte, and a whole host of lesser-known others who came well before 1957-58 when the Kingston Trio first appeared on the scene. A side-note here: in 1959, when Bob (Deckman) Nelson and I were barnstorming in the San Francisco Bay area and auditioning at various clubs such as the Purple Onion, we kept being told by club owners that we needed to get a third member, someone who played the banjo, because trios were what the public wanted. Bob and I saw The Smothers Brothers in their first professional gig at the Purple Onion, and they were a trio then! Tommy and Dicky did all the funny stuff and the third member kept his mouth shut and just played the banjo! The banjo player was not really part of the act, but there only to fill out the club-owner's idea of what sells. Bob and I had talked to the club owner, so we knew what he thought "sells." In any case, with the advent of the Kingston Trio's first hit with "Tom Dooley," folk songs suddenly moved from a healthy and growing trend into the somewhat murky field of commercial pop music. The "vagaries" to which I refer, are the arcane demands of the commercial music industry, the often inexplicable whims of the A & R people, and the ever-shifting tastes of those who buy the latest records and fill the clubs. These latter, in the Bay Area where many of these trios and groups got their start, were almost totally tourists. One rarely found local people at the Hungry i or the Purple Onion, or folks whose interest in folk music was more than superficial (other than Bob and I and a few others, who were there to check the places out). They were there to dig the newest "acts," which could just as easily have been troupes of one-armed jugglers, had it not been that wise-cracking "folk" groups wearing identical vertically striped shirts with button-down collars were what was currently "in." If you were seriously interested in folk music—and I'm not talking "ethnic purists" here (although we ran into a lot of them), I'm talking about people who had a serious interest in the songs themselves, not just in being a commercial success with whatever kind of music was currently selling—the places to be in the Bay Area were Berkeley and Sausalito. Bob and I spent most of our time there, mostly in Sausalito. Martin claims that until "Tom Dooley" hit the charts ". . . folk music was not even a genre of it's own until them." Yes it was. If it wasn't, then opera, early music, chamber music, lieder, blues, and jazz were not "genres of their own" either. Most record stores larger than a phone booth had bins containing folk music (the aforementioned Burl Ives, Susan Reed, et al) right along with chamber music, opera, jazz, etc.. The largest sections were, of course, popular music, and after 1958, that's where you found the Kingston Trio's records: in the popular music bins. And as to the statistic about 85¢ out of every dollar spent on records being spent by girls between the ages of twelve and seventeen, this was told to me in 1960 by a fellow named Bill McNearny, who worked for a record distributor and it was his business to know this sort of thing. I may be slightly off by a percentage point or two, because what Bill said was ". . . about eighty-five cents. . . ." He went on to say that most of this money is spent on stacks of 45 rpm records of the latest heartthrobs, that get played to death over a period of a couple of weeks, then get replaced by another stack of said heartthrob's newest hit—or by the newest heartthrob. Recordings of most music genres either break even or lose money, so, as Bill told me (verified by things I read elsewhere, such as Billboard Magazine), it was (maybe still is) basically adolescent girls who subsidize recordings of lieder singers and string quartets. This includes albums. The Kingston Trio's first album did indeed introduce folk songs to a lot of people who probably hadn't paid much attention to them before, and a percentage of these were inspired to take up guitars and banjos. Some of them developed a genuine interest in the music itself, stuck with it, and learned what it's really all about. But when the Beatles and the British Invasion replace folk music in record stores' pop-hit bins, many others traded their acoustic guitars in on electrics with an eye on attempting to surf the next big wave. I agree with John Ross, who said, "In terms of the long-term folk revival, the Kingston Trio and all those other groups wearing matching shirts that followed them were a temporary diversion rather than a long-term influence." Now, it may be just my personal taste, but I don't really think "Zombie Jamboree" or "Lemon Tree" necessarily epitomize folk music. If that makes me an aloof snob of ancient vintage, then I'll happily cop to the charge. And to wrap this up, I also agree with Abby Sales. In addition to the Carter Family, the album that, in the long run, probably influenced more people with a really serious interest in folk music than any other was undoubtedly the Harry Smith Anthology Here's what the Smithsonian has to say about it (quoting at length): Anthology of American Folk MusicOne needs to distinguish between popular fads and long-term trends. That pretty well says it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:20 PM I think its an argument we've had many times on the mudcat. which is the most important. the artist who popularises folk music, or the artist who makes a conscious attempt to reunite us with our roots by looking for elements in traditional music that link us with in a more authentic way with the artists who wrote those old songs and tunes. lets hope its never really decided ....the survival of a folk tradition relies on both approaches, and both approaches have given us artists of great distinction and worth. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:19 PM I totally agree, weelittledrummer. My thinking is, "I don't care which door you came in through, as long as you're here." It really isn't very productive to get heated up arguing over which door is the best. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:35 PM Judge Mental, You are correct! It wasn't that year. It was a different one. ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:37 PM Gotta agree with Marty Gibby on the KT's first and subsequent albums-but the first was a monster chart-wise. And they just got better until they went out of style. Revolutionized the recording industry with albums instead of singles, saved CF Martin's bacon, made Seeger longnecks a fashion statement and while the road to them may have been hoed by the likes of the Weavers and Gateway Singers, they paved the road for PP&M, Limeliters, Journeymen, Bros 4, and even Baez, Dylan, Collins, Lightfoot on and on. And they never recorded "Guantanamera". Heck, even Lindsey Buckingham aped them and we're talking freakin' Fleetwood Mac here. Wanna good Xmas Cd? Try "The Last Month of the Year" by Guard/Shane/Reynolds. Nothing like it out there. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:47 PM Don Firth, for someone who in his previous post said" end of debate" obviously you have been so shown up and resolved to going into a "peace, love, dove mode that you obviously have lost the arguement and had to write an unreadable and ridiculously long post which only proves how boring of a read you are. I assure you, most everyone here skipped it. Many, like the post above and others in this thread agree with me for my plain but simple logic, but your snobbishness of the world of folk music and your own sorry-ass ego, won't let you. That's fine. I find your overtly long posts do not contribute much except a use of bandwith. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM Hey MG, when you're right you're right, right? Dont know D. Firth but you nailed this one pal no matter what the purists say. Hadn't been for Nick Reynolds I'd never picked up a guitar being a runt myself although I graduated to a dred pretty quick. Them boys could sing and play and live they lit the joint up-did you ever see them in a concert? They were the Beatles of folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:07 PM Yeah, mouse, I saw the Nick, Bob, and John in 1964 and again 3 times when Reynolds reunited with Bob Shane, and George Grove. I was turned on to them by a good friend who was turned on to them by his older brother. My brother in turn was also influenced to start playing also. They were extremely influential to many. I learned a great deal about singing harmonies by paying attention to Nick Reynolds. Thanks for your support on this. I appreciate it. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:25 PM Sorry, GUEST,Anonny Mouse (that's you, isn't it, Marty. C'mon, don't be shy!), but look HERE. Third one listed. And from what I saw, other than Seeger himself, Bob Gibson was the pied piper of the Vega "Seeger Model." After meeting Gibson when he did a concert here it Seattle (he was here for about two weeks, so we had plenty of chance to get together), and after talking to him about it, I got one myself ($295 at the time, and it weighed a ton!). This was about a year before anyone had even heard of the Kingston Trio. There were a couple of them kicking around Seattle, and if they were here in this far corner of the country, I'm sure there were a lot of them out and around elsewhere. Well, Marty, "Mr. Mouse" must have read my overlong screed because he mistakenly thought that he had caught me in a mistake. So I find lots to talk about. If what I write bores you, don't read it. Besides, I'm not debating you or anyone else, and I haven't lost anything. I'm just telling it like it was. Take it or leave it. The reason you get your facts so screwed up is that you're too hung up on winning or losing. Getting that ego-involved tends to make a person careless and sloppy. And your Multiple Personality Disorder starts acting up. Don't worry, if I feel like it, I'll be back. If not, I won't. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:12 AM I am not annony mouse. He knows it and I know it. the clones know it, also. Don't come back, Don. You lost this debate as you will others where effete snobbism does not out class knowledge. You still don't get it. We are talking about most influential album here, not who was the pied piper of a long neck banjo. Very few people out of hard core folk circles have heard of the long dead Bob Gibson at this point. He was a fine performer but no footnote when it comes to musicology. So what if people made albums before the Kingston Trio. Plenty did. None sold anywhere near a million+ copies. So go pound sand. Find another discussion about unreadable long, boring posts, Don. You will win that debate. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:31 AM When I started this thread, I echoed the BBC's question: What album had the greatest impact on the North American folk revival? That's not the same as "which album sold the most" or "what album first attracted you to folk music." It's "the greatest impact on the revival." Just because I started the thread, that doesn't make me the Final Authority on What It All Means, but I believe the "folk revival" part of the question is just as important as the "greatest impact" part. And that's where the Kingston Trio and Pter Paul & Mary (and Lonnie Donnegan in the UK)) albums lose their claims. Sure they were all huge sellers, and yes, they exposed a lot of people to folk music, but the vast majority of those people didn't move on to become part of the folk revival. Instead, they moved on to whatever the next big thing might have been. A few did become serious folkies, but many more moved into folk-rock and on to psychedelic music. Ritchie Untermeyer's excellent two-volume history of folk-rock traces that evolution in great detail. And of course, some, like Jim McGuinn and John Sebastian (and arguably, Jerry Garcia until his death ten years ago), have moved back and forth over the years. But if the question is about the album that contributed most to the shape of the folk revival as it exists today, it's probably the Harry Smith Anthology. That was the first exposure of many (if not most) urban revival singers to country blues, to oldtime string band music, and much more. The people who were inspired by the Anthology did far more to shape today's folk music revival than any of the trios and quartets with nice harmonies and fancy musical arrangements ever did. At the same time, the "who influenced who" argument can be carried to silly extremes. If you want to claim that "Tom Dooley" was the record that started the revival, then maybe the most influential album was really Frank Warner's 1952 10-inch Elektra LP, "American Songs and Ballads," which was where the Kingstons learned the song. But then, maybe it was one of the records in Bob Sacks' collection that first created Jac Holzman's interest in folk music, and inspired him to start Elektra Records, without which Frank Warner's version of "Tom Dooley" might never have been recorded. This kind of thing can go on and on. I don't expect everybody to agree with me. But please, can we conduct a discussion about the music instead of claiming to score points with ad hominem attacks? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: woodsie Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:53 AM Years ago I had a couple of old 78s by LD Alabammy Bound and another I can't remember. What I do remember is that under the song titles it said "New words and music by Lonnie Donnegan" Well the only thing new was Alabammy substituted for alabama! Nice way of collecting royalties lonnie. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Let's Cut the Crap Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:17 PM There is nothing to debate. The Smithsonian article that Don Firth quoted in his 13 Dec 05 - 05:34 PM post says it all. And re-read johnross's post at 14 Dec 05 - 12:31 AM. Nobody with more than two brain cells can argue with this. Dave Guard, Bob Shane, and Nick Reynolds were not The Holy Trinity. They were "The Beach Boys Do Folk Songs." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Let's Cut the Crap Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:28 PM Martin Gibson, you are one of these juvenile minded morons who think that nothing of importance happened in the world until you came along. Grow up! Listen to people who actually KNOW something instead of sitting there at your keyboard and demonstrating what an idiot you are. Oh, never mind! You're hopeless! You have taken the Path of Stupidity and embraced The Dork Side. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 14 Dec 05 - 04:36 PM I don't think there is any other way to say this, but you are all nuts if you think there is ONE "most influential album". If you want to speak about the album that influenced most of the record buying public, then Martin is 100% correct to say it was the Kingston Trio. "The first recordings the Weavers made, the ones first heard on radios and juke boxes, containing their first hit songs like Wimoweh and Goodnight Irene, were pretty crappy because of the orchestral (Gordon Jenkins' arrangements) backing, but they were something new and different to a lot of people. That's why they became hits. This was before they were blacklisted. But when they did the "Weavers at Carnegie Hall" live concert album, they'd shed the orchestra and its slicked-up arrangements, and were self-accompanied." That is very true, but take a look at the release date for "Weavers at Carnegie Hall". While the concert took place in 1955, the album was released in the spring of 1957. The album sold well, but it did not sell in the numbers that the Kingston Trio did. The Weavers, by the time of the "folk scare", were considered "old fashioned" in a sense. So were artists like Josh White and Burl Ives. The Weavers did not "sell" in the same numbers that groups like the Kingston Trio and Limeliters were - during the folk scare. Does that mean they weren't an influence? Of course they were. I know many artists have mentioned that album as an influence on their music and decision to fall in love with "folk" music. However, you can't call it the "most" influential album. The Harry Smith anthology, the Weavers, the Kingston Trio, Burl Ives, Bob Gibson, Ed McCurdy, Odetta and others all had their influence and I dare say that "folk" music would not have been the same without their recordings. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Let's Cut the Crap Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:04 PM Nobody's arguing that the Kingston Trio didn't sell a lot of albums, Ron, and that a lot of people took up guitars and banjos because of their popularity. But reread what johnross posted just above. When it comes to long-term influence on the folk music revival, the Kingston Trio was a minor blip. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:09 PM Don't give me crap, Crap. They are both huge influences, as I said above. If you think that the Kingston Trio did not have as much of a long-term influence, then you have failed to do your homework. Groups like the Kingston Trio, for better or worse, introduced this music to a wide audience. You are being foolish if you consider that a "minor blip". From there, many people did start discovering the work of Weavers, Woody Guthrie, Alan Lomax, Harry Smith, etc. Not everyone follows the same path, luckily. For me, my first memories were hearing folk songs on Captain Kangaroo. I was listening to Simon & Garfunkel and Dylan before I began to seriously listen to Woody Guthrie, and then Pete Seeger and the Weavers. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:20 PM 100 - Bottles of Beer on the Wall - by the Drunken Freshmen |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Let's Cut the Crap Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM Somebody above made a comment about some people's first encounter with folk music being imprinted on their minds like the way baby ducks imprinting on the first thing they see. That's a major influence on THEM. That probably accounts for why so many people think that nothing of importance happened before they came along. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,LCtC Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:49 PM Martin Gibson, you're certainly easy to wind up. Did it ever occur to you that I stick it to you just to get you to react and show everbody what a narrow-minded, foul-mouthed no-neck you are? You're too easy!! Hardly any sport at all! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:09 PM "A blip on the radar screen"????? Whadda blip. 4 albums in billboards top ten at once which I don't think's ever been equaled even by Prez or Beatles. No one argues there were progenitors not even me. Even said so, wrote so whatever. But that red album with the 3 guys playing Martins and an old SS Stewart banjo WAS the freakin' radar screen that all the other blips flew onto. How can you say that it was not only popular but also majorly influencial? Who the heck ever heard of Lonnie Donnegan here in 1957 0r 58? I'm not Martin gibson or Taylor Santa Cruz or Guild Larrivvee either. Just happen to be someone who knows a bit of music history in America and folk music particularly-----the POPULAR kind that actually got played on regular radio stations and on campuses and sold out concert halls and lifted everyone else on the rising tide even the skiffle singers and obscuritati. Think Flatt and Scruggs wouldda gotton the Hillbillies gig without the likes of the KT? As for Vega Seegers, yeah there were 109 of them out in the U.S. and then after the KT about 50 thousand. Martin D28s? Same deal. I don't even know MG but like I said before he is on point in this one. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM We are not holding an election here. Martin can scream all he wants to, and so can anyone else. A bunch of you have opinions in this thread that seem quite valid to me! Martin's are rarely worth anything to me at all---especially when, as he's doing here, yet again, the shit... Oh, to hell with it. It's not worth it! I know what I think, and I'm right. People, what he thinks, simply, just does not matter. Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:18 PM You're right Art. Life is too short to get involved with petty squabbles. Our time can be better spent listening to some of these CD's as opposed to rating them when we all have different criteria. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM I know which one affected me the most at the very beginning of my interest in folk. The Weavers at Carnegie Hall. That doesn't mean it was the most ifluential of all folk albums. That doesn't mean the Kingston Trio was not. It just means that that is how it happened for me. Period. The Kingston Trio affected me plenty too. In the end, Dylan affected me the most. So? And why should that be a problem for anyone? Oh, I know...because people love to be right. And the best way to be right is to make someone else wrong, right? Right! Yadda, yadda, yadda...ad infinitum. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM Hey there Art I'm sorta new at this and this place too-got here by a link someone posted on a guitar site. Anyhoo don't know what the deal is with this martin-gibson fella (he IS a fella?) but seems based on this list of posts he has some history here? Or some people like you don't like him much so as a new person I dunno what im stepping into but at least on this topic I gotta agree with him---didnt think it was a popularity contest vote or something. I haven't had time to weed thru all the other topics, just ones I think I might be interested in, but him (Martin) and me arent the same person ok? I was also a Kingston fan back in the day as you can tell and I can tell you that I didn't know diddlee squat about folk music until Tom Dooley was being played all over the place and every guy in my class wanted to form a folk group and play songs about dying in the coal mines or what hard traveling they'd done, tending them grapes and pickin fruit and cruel wars etc. HAHAHAHA. Anyhow I think a lot more people are like me than not, but maybe not here as some of these thoughts written are obviously from older people than me who were around when the Weavers, Ives and Guthrie were popular and blacklists existed. Missed my time by a few years...I was just a little young and had no idea about them until later when I read up on all this stuff. Anyhow, seems to be people here get riled up pretty easily when certain people post and there's some history I'm not privy to with some of the personalities. So I'm agreeing with MG on this one although I also go along with the idea that its nearly impossible to pick ONE record that did it all. But I think that first KT album comes damn close! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:20 PM Little Hawk summed up this thread pretty well- "people love to be right..." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:31 PM One more thing-that link from Mr. Firth is screwballed-I don't know WHERE they got this list of "20 Hits" from, but I can assure you the following tracks were NOT Kingston Trio songs (Michael? The Highwaymen; Cotten Fields-also on the Highwaymen album; Guantanamera-Seeger recorded that; The Sandpipers made it a "hit"; Shenandoah? Who DIDN'T record that?--well, I can think of ONE--the Kingston Trio!). BTW, I have ALL their recorded output (minus the failed "New Kingston Trio"). If you can tell me WHICH albums these 4 cuts were EVER on, I'll personally eat my words-first I'll print this out, and then eat it, have my daughter take a pic on her camera, and send it to you! 02 Cotton Fields Kingston Trio (Nope...Bullcrap!) 03 Guantanamera Kingston Trio (Uh uh...More Bullcrap!) 10 Michael Row The Boat Ashore Kingston Trio (Ole...El Toro Crappo!) 13 Shenandoah Kingston Trio (noop...Talk to Jimmy Stewart!) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:35 PM "Who the heck ever heard of Lonnie Donnegan here in 1957 0r 58?" Well, I did, as early as 1955 or 56. In Denver at least, around that time, his rendition of Leadbelly's "Rock Island Line" was getting a lot of radio play. We heard a lot about British skiffle groups back then. As to Martin Gibson, yes, he does have a history here. I won't go into it in any detail because I don't like stirring the septic tank, but suffice it to say he has a habit of being insulting and abusive to anyone he happens to disagree with. Most uncivilized behaviour. Along with than, he gets grudges against certain people, follows them around from thread to thread, and posts nasty comments after they post something. Note some of the things he says about Don Firth. That's pretty typical. If you don't want to be called a #%$@&%$^ and have him make obscene remarks about you personal habits and your mother's sex life, don't ever disagree with him. Consider yourself warned. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:42 PM Well, now for something slightly different, change the toone a bit ... since this is a Folk and Blues website .... I gonna say that one of the most influencial Blues albums has to be Paul Butterfield's release in 1965 of the album titled "Paul Butterfield". sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:03 PM hey GUEST,Merde, alors, thanks for some info. Here I thought he was a pretty nice guy and thats what ya get with a tabula rasa y'know? I don't wanna be called a son of a motherless goat or something for being contrary. I just figured MG was somewhat of a character and didn't pay too close attention to remarks against Mr. Firth--who I actually disagreed with on that Top 20 Kingston hit link, but I wouldn't call him a name or anything. But I did notice some hostility back and forth. I guess if he posts something I don't agree with I'll take my chances-its only ether anyway. He was nice enough to me but then he doesn't know my opinions on a lot of stuff so I'll consider myself duly warned if I post here more than a few times which I guess I already did. Maybe everybody oughtta try to be nicer but I spose I'm just naive. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:13 PM You're right about the Kingston Trio not having recorded Guantanamera, Anonny Mouse. I would have sworn that I'd heard them do it, but it must have been some other group. When you called that into question, I went to google advanced search, typed in "Guantanamera" and "Kingston Trio," and that's one of the first pages that came up. You're right, it is goofy. Later, I checked further, found a web site with all the songs the KT had recorded, and lo and behold, no Guantanamera. I should have checked further the first time around. Welcome to the Mudcat. Too bad your introduction to the place had to include all the animosity and insults. Actually, lots of times the discussions can get pretty heated, and that's fine. Lots of strong feelings and different viewpoints, but that's a good way to test one's own idea of things and learn. But it's only when "certain people" get ego-involved in simply winning an argument that it tends to get nasty. Whenever that happens, it's a good idea to just ignore it, say what you have to say, and move on to another thread. By the way, as I mentioned above, I do like the Kingston Trio and readily acknowledge that they were influential in introducing a lot of people to folk music. But they were not the be-all and end-all as far as influence on the whole field is concerned. I go back to the Smith Anthology as really setting to tone for the folk music revival. If you're not familiar with it, see if your local library has a copy and give it a listen. Anyway, welcome aboard! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:25 PM Not to disagree about the Butterfield album, but I'd like to hear more from Number 6 about your reasons for suggesting it. Specifically, what was Butterfield's long-term impact? Was this the LP that opened peoples' ears to electric blues? Did people who heard that record move on to discover the whole world of Chicago blues -- e.g., the older bluesmen like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf, and the younger guys like Buddy Guy? Or did it inspire people outside the existing blues world to incorporate that style into their own music? Can you name some bands or albums that were obviously influenced by the Butterfield Band? Again, I'm not disagreeing with the choice, but it would be helpful to know why you suggested it. I wonder if the early Butterfield records would have had the same impact and influence if they had not been on Elektra, but say, Columbia, or a blues label like Chess. In those days, a lot of us would listen to every new release on Elektra and Vanguard and treat it as "folk music" unless it was very obviously something else (like the Vanguard marching band records). Obviously that changed after Elektra started releasing acts like Love and The Doors, and Vanguard did Country Joe and the Fish. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:37 PM Thanks for the welcome Don. That Top 20 KT hits thing is messed up. A coupla times when Napster was still up I searched for some folk songs and the KT was listed next to stuff like "Michael" and other songs they never did. No big deal since the folk scare is way ancient now. And I don't think the Kingstons are all that and a bag of chips beyond my personal preferences in that era. Heated discussions are okay too but I dont like it when it gets too personal since everybody has their own opinion on things musically. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:37 PM I'm glad you asked Johnross, didn't feel I'd get a response, but yours was more than I expected ... you pretty summed up my reason in your statement ... "specifically, what was Butterfield's long-term impact? Was this the LP that opened peoples' ears to electric blues? Did people who heard that record move on to discover the whole world of Chicago blues -- e.g., the older bluesmen like Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf, and the younger guys like Buddy Guy?" It specifically opened up a lot of middle class white kid's ears, certainly know it opened mine and a lot of my contempories at that time ... it proved we could now also play the blues ... and as you stated opened a lot of doors for the originals to be heard. Good point about Elektra, food for thought that's for sure. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM Interesting Don, now that you don't think Anony Mouse and I are sthe same person you go into one of your kind of phony pseudo intellectual whines. Anony mouse, I want to tell you that some here especially the so called folk purists in this thread such as Mr. Firth and a few others who hide behind regular postiung names do have it in for me because I simply call a spade a spade and tell it how it is. there is a thick vein of snobbery here that hates anything commercialized, corporate, patriotic, and mainstream. I usually call these individuals out on this and it winds them up. for way too long, they have tried to dominate Mudcat and suppress ideas and plain out lie when they do not get their way. I just want to once again thank you for your support and agreement to my arguement and assure you, the longer that you hang around here, knowing what I have learned about you from your posts and tastes in music, that I am not your enemy here. Your enemy hides behind snobbism and purist narcissim in what they perceive as folk music, and I assure you that it is not me, but the phonies here who log out and come back you as a guest when they tell you what they really want to say. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:34 PM Martin--I have to assume your name is your favorite guitars (?) and as I wrote above I have no history here so I wouldnt know the snobs or whatever. I know pop folk music like the Trio and others took their hits on being too commercial but I didn't much care because I just liked the songs and playing and how David Guard got really decent on his banjoes and Stewart could play too. I am not here to make any enemies you included so if we disagree on something sometime it could hardly be personal since we don't even know eachother. Y'all can fight it out amongst yourselves. I'll be avoiding purists discussions since I most likely don't qualify. I know enough to be dangerous thats about it. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: johnross Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:50 PM Six, you say that the Butterfield Band "proved we could now also play the blues." Just curious, had you heard the stuff that John Hammond Jr. had been doing for several years at that point? Hammond was a different kind of act as a solo, rather than something derived from the southside Chicago bands, but it seems like he was the first prominent white boy on the folk circuit singing and playing what I'd call "hard blues" (as compared to people like Dave van Ronk picking up material from songsters like Josh White and John Hurt). |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:58 AM "they were not the be-all and end-all as far as influence on the whole field" You CANNOT point to one album or one group as the SINGLE be-all and end-all. If there were such a beast, then all the music would sound the same - which it clearly does not. The Kingston Trio have been sited as being the group as having the most impact on opening peoples ears to folk music, and if you are looking solely at numbers, then that is clearly true. More people became inquisitive about folk music after hearing "Tom Dooley" than any other single recording. That doesn't mean they only listened to the Kingston Trio. I may drift into a restaurant because I catch the smell of pizza, but once I get inside and look at the menu, perhaps I will enjoy a nice pasta dish or chicken parm and never touch the pizza. The same thing can be said for folk music. I think if ANYONE relied soley on ONE influence, then they are going to lack any sort of depth and will miss out on an opportunity to evaluate the music in comparison with others. Bob Dylan has cited influences including Hank Williams, Odetta and Woody Guthrie and he developed his own style from it. Much earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that people tend to disregard sources other than those that they know. (I'm paraphrasing). The "folk revival" did not start in the 1950's. You can go back to the start of the 20th century when people like John Lomax began publishing his collections, or perhaps even further back with the work of Francis Child and others. Cecil Sharp had a huge impact. The folk revival that started then was not focused solely on music. It became important to many people(and I'm speaking primarily of the United States but it is certainly relevant in other countries as well)to preserve "folk" traditions as technology began advancing and changing our culture. Perhaps Carl Sanburg's "American Songbag" collection had a far greater impact than we give credit to. Beginning in the 1920's, commercial recordings of "ethnic" music found a market. These recordings, which Harry Smith used to create his collection, probably had a greater impact on preserving folklore. Perhaps the Carter Family were the most successful, but think of all the hundreds of artists and songs that were saved and later sung. Folk Festivals began cropping up in this country during the 1930's, and although their approach was different that what we have today, they were a huge influence. When you give credit to the Kingston Trio, can we forget about Frank Profitt? Frank shared the song that was part of his families heritage with Frank and Anne Warner. Frank began performing it in his performances. Roger Sprung, Erik Darling and a group of musicians would then record the song for a small record label. The Kingston Trio heard THAT recording, made very slight revisions, and had a huge hit. Who was the most influential in this case? You will sooner come up with a definitive definition of what folk music is before you come up with the definitive or "most influential" album. I think all of the suggestions above have played an important part in the CONTINUING folk revival and none can be dismissed. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:48 AM wow Ron-what an answer! and a GOOD ONE too. I'm not sure that pointing to one single source, be all end all would've made all sound the same. Probably not possible in music right? As I understand the question is about a "most influencial album" and yeah the Lomaxes and Profit and weavers etc. etc. and probably a ton of others put stuff out on record before Guard Shane and Reynolds. BUT as has been accurately noted THAT album kicked the door wide open that a few feet had been stuck into before, though I like the pizza analogy cause I like pizza! Anyway if we're talking a singular event/audio recording the KT red album has to be it right? So whether or not 200 people recorded the Ballad of Tom Dula(which I heard HE wrote himself in prison with the siph or something), TOM DOOLEY by the KT hit the gold. Those other dudes and dudettes didn't. I'm done now since its obvious I too wanna be right. From there on you takes your pick. I stick with my choice but lots of good points made. Its been an interesting topic anyhow. The other thing is that 2nd record at the Hungry i which showed that stuff performed live was fun and entertaining and sold a bushel too. We had some old folksinger come to a school assembly back when and sing some dippy songs with his guitar on stage about his love was a cherry or something and he was about as exciting to watch as my barber giving haircuts. Now when I saw the KT or Limes on TV or live (later) it was an EVENT, a happening a show. Somethign to be said for that too. Got it into the mainstream which made the purists mad (how DARE they-this is tripe!) but happy too because they could go to the bazillion coffee houses that sprang up and hootenannys and people SHOWED UP to listen to them too so those low life popular groups really did them and us a favor, no? Did I say I was done? Guess I lied. OK now I'm done unless one of you calls me a $%#%@ or something. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Claymore Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:03 AM As small point to the debate; to those who are old enough to remember, the Kingston Trio's first recording was a 45 with "Tom Dooley" on one side and brownie points to anyone who can name the other side... To my knowledge the Weavers never did. Clearly, though some would try any credit the Weavers with being the most influential record album, as one who was in his teens during this period, I was aware of both at the same time and had both the albums, and as I traveled from Alexandria, Virginia to Cleveland, Ohio to Aiea, Hawaii during that year 1956-57 (my father was a Naval Officer) the Kingston Trio had far more influence. They had air-play all over he place and without payola. As noted above, they made it commercial, accessable, well-known and desirable, which may be crass, but also fits the best definition of "Influential". |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:27 AM "Anyway if we're talking a singular event/audio recording the KT red album has to be it right? " It depends on how the question is asked and how you are defining "influential". Did the Kingston Trio influence the majority of PROFESSIONAL musicians who cropped up durnig the folk revival? The answer is probably "no". Did their music influence the majority of TRADITIONAL enthusiasts during the folk revival? The is very likely "no". Did the Kingston Trio influence the largerst MASS AUDIENCE during the folk revival? The answer is most likely "yes". I don't think we would have had a "folk revival" or a "folk scare" if it wasn't for the Kingston Trio. Folk music would have existed in some form, as it still does today, but it would not have gone in the direction that it did. When the Kingston Trio burst on the scene you suddenly had record labels throwing money at musicians. Clubs and coffeehouses sprang up to support the growing scene. Let me use another analogy. You can't grow a single tomato plant and say you have a garden. (I guess I am getting hungry - pizza and tomato in two analogies!) You can start a garden because you enjoy tomatoes, but you will probably realize that you can grow peppers, oregano, basil, lettuce and suddenly you will find your plate is full - and you are enjoying everything that you grow. Influence is a tricky word. You could probably argue the same about rock music. Most people will cite the Beatles or Elvis Presley, but there are many different "influences" for both fans and musicians. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: John MacKenzie Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:36 PM Ruby Red? G. [Good old Google] |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:05 PM Random ruminations on a slow morning at the Skunk Works: As long as we're sort of beating this thing from all sides, there are a number of other factors that were strongly influential on the whole folk music "scene" (if we still want to call it a "scene"). All of this material could have faded into the mists of antiquity had it not been for people such as Bishop Thomas Percy who rescued an tattered manuscript (he was visiting friends and their maid was using it to start the morning fire in his room) and discovered that it contained the words to old songs and ballads—old in 1765. This became the material for his Reliques of Ancient English Poetry. Then people like Sir Walter Scott collecting Scottish border ballads, sometimes using ballad materials in his novels. Most early collectors, as far up as Francis J. Child, were mainly interested in these ballads as poetry rather than songs and didn't bother to collect melodies. I think it was in the late nineteenth or very early twentieth century that a fair number of folks began collecting the tunes as well. But often they would hear something they thought was a bit odd in the melody sung by a source singer and wrote down what they thought should be the correct notes. Cecil J. Sharp was the first to write down, not what he thought the notes should be, but what he actually heard. Later analysis of the melodies revealed that the "wrong notes" the source singers were singing were not wrong at all: the modes, particularly Dorian and Mixolydian, were still alive and well and living in folk music. Then, in the United States, along came the Lomaxes, Sandburg, and others, and we're off and running. Trivia that's fun to quote to get Martin Gibson to call you a "snob" and a "purist" (I regard that as like getting a Nobel Prize):— It was a German philosopher, Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744-1803), who, as far as anyone knows, was the first person to use the term "folksong" (volkslieder). He was refering to the songs and music of "the rural peasant class." [We tend to reject the idea of a class system, however.] He felt that writers and composers should study this material in order to get back to the roots and give their works a more regional or nationalistic flavor. Then, of course, there were the Brothers Grimm. They were into collecting both folk music and folk tales. Many of the fairly tales they wrote up had been around as folk tales for who knows how long? (Here's a helluva discussion for a whole different thread: Did Walt Disney introduce generations of children to old German folk tales??). Now, am I trying to equate Walt Disney and the Kingston Trio? Just a random association that flitterd by like a moth with the hiccups, but no, I'm not sure that line of though is really worth pursuing . . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:26 PM "Ron and all, you are drifting. The thread is called Most Influential Album" Not exactly Martin. The title of the thread is open to interpretation. The thread does not designate who is being influenced - audience or artist? Also, the basic premise of the thread puts too much emphasis on "albums". Frankly, the single of "Tom Dooley" had more impact then the album. Yes, the Kingston Trio sold an incredible amount of albums - FOR THEIR TIME. I do agree with your reasoning based on the criteria you used. I've said it before, the Kingston Trio should not be maligned the way they have been. If Frank Profitt had issued a "greatest hits", it would be on my shelf - alongside my Kingston Trio collection |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bill kennedy Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:26 PM popularity is not the same as influence. Kingston Trio were popular, but they certainly had no influence on me. I hated their arrangements and white bread versions of 'folk songs'. The first time I heard Leadbelly, the first time I heard Woody, the first time I heard Odetta, the first time I heard Koerner, Ray and Glover, the first time I heard Jean Ritchie, the first time I heard Susan Reed, etc. THOSE were life changing events for me. I really don't see any direct influence of any kind on modern folk music from the Kingston Trio. I don't accept the argument. They were not that big an influence. Nor were P, P and M. Both groups filled a pop music void and made money for a lot of industry people, and spawned a lot of imitators, and were wildly popular, but it was the early recordings of the Weavers and Pete Seeger in particular, that put banjos and guitars in a lot of hands, and contrary to what was posted above Pete Seeger spent years and years on the college folk circut in the 50s,. spawning folk music clubs, concerts, festivals, etc. He really got it going here in the states, as far as I am concerned. Got the audiences singing along, as well, and comfortable remembering and sharing songs from the childhoods of everyone. AND HOW CAN YOU NOT AGREE THAT THE MOST INFLUENTIAL FOLK MUSIC RECORDINGS OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY IN THE USA WERE MADE BY THE CARTER FAMILY? Everyone heard them, with the exception of some high society types, but 100000 watt radio from Mexico put them in more homes then the Kingston Trio could count to. Lonnie Donegon and the skiffle craze can NOT be overlooked in the development of British folk and later rock. Ramblin' Jack and Derroll Adams likewise influenced a lot of later British folk artists. Sean O Riada started the Chieftains who encouraged the Dubliners, who inspired Planxty, etc. Throw in the Clancy Brothers' recordings coming back to Ireland from the states, as well. Burl Ives, the Almanac Singers, etc. all big influences on later artists in the US. as for the original impetus of this post, the UK folk revival might have been most influenced by one recording: Liege and Leaf by Fairport COnvention. individual UK folk artists were certainly influenced by Martin Carthy, the Copper family, the Collins sisters, Ewan McColl, etc. too many to mention and to easy to leave out someone, like Vashti Bunyan, or Anne Briggs, Bert Jansch, John Renbourn, etc. I don't think these exercises are at all instructive, except as Joe Offer mentioned in regards personal tastes, and I get awfully tired of the posters who claim to be the final authority on this or any other topic. I haven't listened to the Kingston Trio in over 40 years, and wouldn't begin to think about doing so. I avoid P, P and M for the same reasons, though they occassionally hit the spot live, they were a bit to crafted and polished for me and if I NEVER hear 'the fanciful fire breathing creature that rhymes with fluff, whose name shall never be uttered by me' sung about again in my lifetime it will have been heard 100 times too many at least. Puke and gag. Judy Collins likewise, I've seen her in recent years and her voice is better than ever, but her material is still a mixed bag. SHe should NEVER be allowed to sing 'City of New Orleans' for example. She butchers it every time, not a song for her. I still never tire of Blues, Rags and Hollers, or older Ramblin Jack Elliot recordings, or Susan Reed, or Jean Ritchie, and though I would have to admit they may not have influenced the larger culture, they certainly appealed to me. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:40 PM "popularity is not the same as influence" Respectfully, you are wrong there. Popularity has a huge influence on pop culture. Look at pop music today - entertainers like Britanny Spears and others have a HUGE influence on defining culture. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music, but the fact that it changes the way culture evolves. I do agree with you Bill that others had more of an influence in defining the music that we heard, but to create the entire scene was more than the work of one person or group. You are dead wrong when you declare that the Kingston Trio did not have a huge influence. The others you site certainly had a great importance, but you are failing to step back and critically examine what created the "folk scare". "but it was the early recordings of the Weavers and Pete Seeger in particular, that put banjos and guitars in a lot of hands, and contrary to what was posted above " That is simply an opinion, and not a fact. Of course Seeger was a huge influence, but you can't give him sole credit. There were many who were turned on by Rev. Gary Davis or Dave Van Ronk or The Kingston Trio. The Kingston Trio were being heard on the airwaves and seen on television, all the while Seeger was blacklisted. That kind of exposure opened the eyes of many people - many who would make the step from the Kingston Trio to Seeger, not vice versa. No one, with the exception of one or two individuals, is trying to deny the importance of Seeger, Weavers, Carter Family, etc. It is just wrong to exclude the Kingston Trio simply because they were not your personal taste. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bill kennedy Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:41 PM just a further aside, there is one reason that most of the people that post here can sing all of the lyrics to 'Goodnight, Irene' - the Weavers, with Pete Seeger and Pete Seeger's 'Wimmoweh' became 'The lion SLeeps Tonight' heard on every radio station from coast to coast, and which was used again later in 'The Lion King' which has been seen by more children in recent years than probably anything else. If you have kids you probably have a DVD of it in your home right now. talk about influence. and then think about the cross cultural diversity embodied in that song, the beginnings of the acceptance of other musics from other lands, and then leading to the later more honest acceptance of America's own 'race music' into the larger culture. all spawned by Pete's own big heart, I'd say. and let's not forget, 'We Shall Overcome'. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Judge Mental Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:49 PM and Pete Seeger's 'Wimmoweh' became 'The lion SLeeps Tonight' heard on every radio station from coast to coast, As Pete would be the first to tell you, the credit for "Wimoweh (Mbube)," belongs to Solomon Linda of South Africa. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 03:53 PM ... and as popular as the song was here in the U.S., it's importance was even great in South Africa when it was first recorded in the 1930's. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bill kennedy Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:09 PM yes, of course, your honor, but few of us would have ever heard 'Wimmoweh' if not for Pete. and, respectfully, I disagree with you, Ron, I still say popularity is not the same as influence. Kingston Trio popularity peaked in the late 50s, waned in the early 60s and had no influence on popular music whatsoever once the Beatles and Rolling Stones and the rest of the British invasion hit the airwaves, ALL OF WHOM had been influenced by earlier recordings of blues and folk, like Woody, Ramblin' Jack, and field recordings and early recordings of Lightnin'Hopkins, Mississippi John Hurt, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly, etc. sometimes filtered through, but most often introduced to the young British audience, by Lonnie Donegan, and especially for the blues and influence on later Big British Invasion groups, Alexis Koerner and Chris Barber. These guys were major influences on what would become popular music in the 60s and continuing till today. Kingston Trio did not have the same effect on 'folk music'. The 'scare' had little or nothing to do with folk music, any more than 95% of performers who are 'labelled' 'folk singers' today have to do with folk music. Folk music has always been a narrow niche market appealing to a broadminded, intelligent, mature audience. The so-called 'folk-scare' was the very brief bubble of loosely folk music inspired popular performers selling a lot of records in a couple of years and more often then not not crediting the original 'folk artists' they borrowed from, in ways more serious than my not mentioning Solomon Linda above. Pete will never let you forget him. Just as most true folk artists acknowledge those they've learned from. The 'singer-songwriter' is a sorry substitute for a good 'folk stylist' in my opinion, and no substitute for 'folk music' but there has never been a vacuum, there has always been popular culture, and even in the most remote hills and hollers it had it's influence. not the end of story, but just some further thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:21 PM The snobs continue. Not you, Ron. but I do read this thread clearly as "Most Influential album" because that is what the 3 words clearly say. And the point is that frank Profitt did not have a greatest hits album so no one bought it and found it influential. don, your post is laughably pseudo intellectual, I can just see some long haired scientist in a lab coat point his finger in the air exclaiming "WHY NOT!" Because yours is a ridiculous diatribe and off topic, that's why don. And more people heard "wimoweh" by the Kingston trio than Pete Seeger do it on their second album "From the Hungry i" before the tokens did it. Pete Seeger had an influential book, "How to Play the 5-string banjo" but he did not have much in the way of albums which turned as many people at once on to folk music as the Kingston trio did. bill Kennedy, I already mentioned The Carter family way back as an influenbtial group, but like them and the others you are trying to impress us with, they also did not have the Most Influential Album, which is again, the title of this thread. You don't get it, either. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:27 PM "I still say popularity is not the same as influence." You are making the definition to fit your arguement I'm afraid. There is the influence that certain artists had on other artists, and there is influence that changes popular culture. "Kingston Trio popularity peaked in the late 50s, waned in the early 60s and had no influence on popular music whatsoever once the Beatles and Rolling Stones and the rest of the British invasion hit the airwaves, ALL OF WHOM had been influenced by earlier recordings of blues and folk" No arguement there. However, the artists that influenced the other musicians that you mention were not household words. The point of this discussion was more focused on "albums" though. "The so-called 'folk-scare' was the very brief bubble of loosely folk music inspired popular performers selling a lot of records in a couple of years " Again, no one is disagreeing with that. As I said earlier, the folk revival started decades earlier. This "blip" brought the movement into a wider public consciousness - and it was altered by the commercial forces present. "Folk music has always been a narrow niche market appealing to a broadminded, intelligent, mature audience." I agree that it has been a narrow niche market, but I think you are creating a sterotype that isn't true. While there is a significant part of the audience that is open minded, smart and getting older, there is also an audience with very set ways (picture many of the posters on Mudcat, people who do not always practice common sense, and young people who are discovering music for the first time - like children in schools. You can't create a narrow definition. "The 'singer-songwriter' is a sorry substitute for a good 'folk stylist' in my opinion" I thought you said the folk audience was openminded? Why shut out a certain style of music? All songs were written by someone, even if they have been altered through time. The technology that we live in will probably prevent us from losing site of modern songs, but I would bet that several hundred years from now you will have musicologists studying the singer-songwriters as "folk music". |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: John MacKenzie Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:31 PM Found this , unfortunately not in date order so takes a bit of searching. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:51 PM I was influenced by Buryl Ives, The Weavers and the Kingston Trio. In fact, I have always hated the Beetles because they put the trio out of business. So, what the hell difference does it make? No one gives a shit about my opinion. These arguments are so juvenile. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 15 Dec 05 - 06:01 PM They did not put Frank Profit out of business. after the Beatles, he issued his next most influential album, "Frank Profit's Greatest Hits, Volume II. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: kendall Date: 15 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM I have his first album. One thing I like about him and other Folk Legacy artists is the authenticity. His version of Tom Dooley was closer to the original story than the trio. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bill kennedy Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM one thing I feel I should point out to MG, it's possible that more people heard the Kingston Trio recording of Wimmoweh than Pete Seegers, but I don't think the KT second album sold as well as the first album, and that one sold a lot solely due to the popularity of Tom Dooley. But as with many KT albums, everbody already knew the songs. Everbody, at least 95% of the population were already familiar with Wimmoweh from hundreds of concerts by Pete. Yes he was blacklisted from radio and tv, but he toured everywhere, from college campuses to summer camps, teaching the songs and inspiring every folk music club to begin on every college campus in the country. The Kingston Trio were no better than Mitch Miller in that they offered familiar songs to a popular audience. Come on, the first album so influential according to MG contained these songs: Three Jolly Coachmen Saro Jane Bay of Mexico Sloop John B Banua Santy Anno Tom Dooley Scotch and Soda Fast Freight Coplas Hard, Ain't It Hard Little Maggie people bought it because of, a-wella, Tom Dooley. And why did we have to listen to so many bad folk singers all over the country singing 'Scotch and Soda'? Anybody here ever sing Banua or Coplas? The Beach Boys Sloop John B was successful because it was an ironic drunken party song that mocked the Trio. A good song on the recording is Hard, Ain't it Hard, but not their version of it. Precious few 'folk songs', (not to restart that argument of what is or isn't). Yes this album was bought by many, for Tom Dooley, but influenced maybe one in a thousand teenage boys to sing crap like 'Scotch and Soda' because it was about getting drunk. not much of an influence if you ask me, but nobody asked me. There were many more recordings of Burl Ives in every elementary school in the country, along with other FOlkways recordings. The weavers, Pete Seeger, these had much greater influence on teaching people, encouraging people, allowing people to sing together in public rather than sitting back and being entertained. That was the heart of folk music, group singing, and Pete and the Weavers were at the heart of that movement. When the Kingston Trio and Peter Paul and Mary and others came on the scene it became again a time to be entertained rather than be involved. Yes there was some singalong in concert but less and less as the years went on. Stars begat starlings who would dominate a party with their rendition of a Joan Baez song, or whatever, the civil rights movement and maybe a bit of the anti Vietnam war movement was the last of the great singalongs. Television, pop culture media giants, big star recording artists took over and the folk movement was long gone. I don't know that there was any one recording that had the greatest influence on folk music, but it certainly wasn't The Kingston Trio. It might have been Parsley Sage Rosemary and Thyme for all that, or early Bob Dylan, more likely. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors! Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:30 PM My God, people! Just about everybody has said whatever they have to say on this subject about a dozen times without adding anything new. Repeat, repeat, repeat! What a waste of bandwidth! Why don't you just push back from your computers and go take a walk or something? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM HAHAHAHAHAHA...Taylor-you should learn how to spell "Takamine!" I love it! Youse guys are a riot. Now, bill kennedy, here's a little lesson: you're mixing up "Barbara Ann" by the Beach Boys-the "drunken party song". Al Jardine was a major KT fan and brought "Sloop" to Brian Wilson because he thought the Beach Boys could do a neat cover of it. Brian may have some dead brain cells but he was nobody's fool musically and they werent out to mock the KT. They did Sloop, and it was hardly a drunken party song; believe it scored bigtime for them. Meanwhile no one at Capitol knew what to do with Pet Sounds because it wasn't surfin music. Ever notice how early on the BB's wore button-down collar, wide-striped Kingston shirts? Yeayah. They did. There was actually a friendly relationship there and Brian's daddy loved the KT boys image even tho he was an SOB who probably screwed up Brian for life. Didja know God Only Knows was written by Brian for his DAD???? You fellas oughta lighten up a little here. I betcha we could all go out and have a couple o' brews with Martin and we'd all get on just fine. I'm no Dr. Phil thank gawd but I think Martin loves it when this stuff goes down. Isnt this sposed to be a time of peace and joy and warm fuzzies no matter yer religious persuasion? Do I have to start typing in lyrics to Youngbloods songs (yeccchhh)? Taylor Takamine--good one. Im easily amused. Maybe I'm gonna change to Santa Cruz Bourgeois or Collings Guild or Esteban Alvarez. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 16 Dec 05 - 12:21 AM Anybody know the name of the Carter Family's influential album? Seamus |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 16 Dec 05 - 02:53 PM So is this thread officially buried now? Resurrection for a moment. All you commercial, pop non authentic folk music haters of pop groups and as MG says "braying"---the KT ruled. I'm outta here now.HAHAHAHA had to get in one last lick. The Trio were folks singing music-aint that folk music? (just kidding). BYE BYE |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 16 Dec 05 - 03:37 PM This thread (which is certaily interesting, informative) has unfortunately evolved into total lunacy. ... and it's sad. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 16 Dec 05 - 04:02 PM I am not influenced by the moon. It hasn't evolved to lunacy. You have evolved to lunacy. Not me. As fer the restava ya, ok. I enjoyed it. Even that Martin Gibson fella. And Mr. Firth. so sue me. But I learned A LOT about this place. Verrrrrrrrrrrrry educational. Not a bad thing eh? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 16 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM Thanks, anony mouse. This was a great thread and I once again appreciate your participation in it. Though some of the purists will go on "braying" about that evil commercialized folk music that people have a (shudder) good time with. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Guy Wolff Date: 16 Dec 05 - 10:11 PM Very Interesting responces here. I am just going to answer as the question comes to inportant albums to ME . What they did to me. Different moments in time PP&M's first album made me want to play folk music. "Bluebird" on Buffalo Springfield made me have to play clawhammer banjo .. same for the "Old folks at Home" by Taj Mahal "Music From Clarence Tom Ashleys" showed me there was an Amazing unmined tradition in the USA so strong and real it had to be honered "Into the perpla Valley "by Rye Cooder made me have to play slide " For Pence and Good Ale " ??? something like that . The Watersons made me want to sing " The Young Tradition " the same and Everything of Martin Carthy 's has made me want to play the guitar. "THe complete Robert Johnson ". life changing ... All have been movers in my life and I would not be the same person if I had not found them .. This month its "Heart's Delight" from Finest Kind thanks Ian Robb. All the best , Guy |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 16 Dec 05 - 11:13 PM Hey back at ya Marty. I got no axes to grind at ya on this one and nobody called any names either. Maybe Ill see you at another thread. A place or two I drop in at has mods who censor stuff especially any bad language which I see here and it is allowed to stay so thats different. Guess there's no mods here?? Or theyre reeeall liberal types. Guy--can relate to some of yer choices although I dont know some of the others. But always loved Bluebird back when Stills was cutting his teeth in Springfield...and Taj is cool too. Thought I was done with this thread but Guy, your posting brought up some good memories. And you can really hear a lot of CSNY roots with Buff. Springfield. Robt Johnson-what can ya say that hasn't been said about him. Wonder if he still haunts Rosedale Crossroads in ol' Miss? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Tammy Swinette Date: 16 Dec 05 - 11:41 PM |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: sharyn Date: 16 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM Bill Kennedy: "Did anyone on this thread ever sing "Banua?" Certainly, I did: like many of the songs sung by Peter, Paul and Mary, "Banua" made it to summer camps on the lips of camp counselors. When I got to camp around 1968 as a camper, they were singing it, I sang it, we all sang it. I nwver knew it had been recorded by the Kington Trio (it wasn't on the one album by them I ever bought -- one was enough, more than enough, really). I imagine I might be odd, but we never watched TV or listened to the radio in my family. We did read and listen to albums (not 45s). We occasionally went to the movies. Mom sang and played the piano. My Dad whistled. No one else played anything else until I picked up a guitar at age eleven. My "media-free" childhood means that I was not influenced by what was on TV or radio but by whatever was already in the house and by what I heard elsewhere (My friends did not listen to the radio or watch TV either). I suppose you could argue that I was influenced by both The Kingston Trio and Peter, Paul and Mary because other people sang their songs to me (never crediting them for them). Had I grown up with recordings of The Weavers and The Kingston Trio they might have influenced me, but I didn't and they didn't, and I have sung traditional music all of my life, starting with albums I cited above. All this is a long way of saying, if you want to know who infuenced, or what album influenced, singers and writers, you have to ask them: you can't assume that a popular, high-selling group did so (OTHER PEOPLE may have bought all those albums) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 17 Dec 05 - 04:48 AM So what have we learned here? 1) Lots of people still have very strong opinions about the Kingston Trio. God knows why. I'm not one of them. I think we can safely say, however, that they aren't influencing many people anymore whereas a lot of folk and blues artists from both sides of the atlantic who were playing at the same time as the KT were having hits still are. 2) For most of the people here, anything that didn't happen in America simply didn't happen. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: gnu Date: 17 Dec 05 - 12:53 PM Ah... the original question in the first post by johnross is : "This leads me to think about the same question in North America. What are your nominations?" One should always read at least the first post. Anyway... if this thread is dead, killed by total lunacy, perhaps we could turn to a more fruitful endeavour.... What is the most influential Bodhran album? I, of course, must disqualify myself, already knowing the answer. Disgust... er, ah... discuss. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: kendall Date: 17 Dec 05 - 12:56 PM What I want to know is, who has the silliest walk? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Amos Date: 17 Dec 05 - 01:19 PM The albums that influenced me the most were ingrained in my brain cells long before the Trio made headlines. They had little original to add musically, but they did put some polish on, it must be said, and they made folk music popular. For me, the albums were: The Weavers at Carnegie Hall Frank Warner's Elektra album A mishmash of field collected white and black songs by Folkways Pete Seeger -- a couple of albums The Almanac Singers and their union collection Josef Marais and Miranda Burl Ive's "Men" and "Songs of the Sea" albums A Leadbelly album Belafonte's first couple of albums -- especially the pink one. Later on I became entranced by the Clancy brothers and Tommy Makem, of course. I thought of the Trio, the Limelighters and PP&M as sort of eye-candy, even though I enjoyed some of their songs a lot. When Joan Baez came on the scene she quickly joined my favorites, because her voice was so compelling. And then Dylan signed with Columbia and the race was on... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 17 Dec 05 - 02:12 PM JohnRoss .... I certainly am aware of John Hammond Jr ... I didn't come across discovering him until 1968 ... in fact 2 cd's that are in my car right now are his Best of the Vanguard Years and Trouble No More ... he is a supurb musician with a voice that compliments his music. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 17 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM gnu .... Lucy McNeil probably has been one of the most popular artists influencing Bohdran players here in the Maritimes (and yes it's part of the Americas) ... the cd "Until Now" by the Barra Mcneils is the one I'd say that provided the initial interst here. six |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: gnu Date: 18 Dec 05 - 07:04 AM sIx... Maritimes - The Barra McNeils, "Until Now". Canada - Great Big Sea, "Great Big Sea". |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: kendall Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM I often get the runs thinking about nameless posters with a lot to say. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Peter T. Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:46 AM The most influential album was "Blonde on Blonde" because it killed the folk revival. If that isn't influence...... yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:47 AM Hmmmm .... good point gnu. But who is the bohdran player in Great Big Sea? excuse my ignorance, but I haven't listened to too much of GBS. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:59 AM OK Gnu, fair point. But I still think that even in North America, there are artists from the 40s and 50s who are continuing to influence new generations of artists. I'm not sure that could be said of the Kingston Trio, with all due respect to them. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: kendall Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:38 PM Blonde on blonde? Never heard of it. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors! Date: 18 Dec 05 - 03:18 PM "Blonde on Blonde" (1966 Dylan album) didn't kill anything, except my desire to listen to anything Dylan recorded. Merde indeed! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Ross Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:55 AM 'Beatles for Sale' was the first album I heard that hinted at the possibilities of folk 'Got to Hurry' - B side to 'For Your Love' by the Yardbirds, must have got a lot of people into the Blues |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: gnu Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:44 AM sIx... Séan McCann. May I suggest that the album "Great Big Sea" would be their best and I would recommend it outright. After that, listen before you lay out any money. As for anywhere outside of Canada, my knowledge is limited to artists that I have enjoyed and does not encompass anything to do with "influence". Ah, Guest Chris B... my first post regarding bodhran, was, of course, tongue in cheek. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:40 AM Kendall .. "Blonde on Blonde" don't worry, it certainly wasn't one of Bob's most prolific albums. It's the debut of lectric Bob, you won't like it. He's done a lot, lot better. gnu .. thanks. I'll take a boo at "Great Big Sea" Ross .. "Beatles for Sale" .. known as "Beatles '65" outside of the U.S. ... good point here. I was listening to that a few weeks ago specifically for tha folkiness ... "I'm a Loser" is a good example.Opened a lot of ears I'm sure. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:23 AM "I still think that even in North America, there are artists from the 40s and 50s who are continuing to influence new generations of artists. I'm not sure that could be said of the Kingston Trio, with all due respect to them." That may be very true, but it misses the initial point of this thread. If the definition of "most influential" means the album that effected the "most people", then the Kingston Trio would fit the criteria. I would agree that artists like Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Lead Belly and others MAY have influenced a great number of musicians - but it would be difficult to point to a single album from any of those artists that had a large effect on as large of a mass of people as the Kingston Trio's first album and the single recording of "Tom Dooley". |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:17 AM Gnu, What you do with your tongue is your own business.... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bill kennedy Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:53 AM I think it might be more interesting and perhaps more informative to continue this discussion by focussing on actual influence. My point about Banua, Tom Dooley, etc. is that almost everyone ALREADY knew those songs, from camp, from school, etc. and most importantly from the singing of other performers, like Pete, Burl, Weavers, etc. You say Kingston Trio influenced the most people. While I agree they did sell a lot of albums, what do you mean by influence? How were all these people influenced, and to do what? I don't see any real influence at all. Did they affect or alter the world of folk music, or change the development of folk music? I don't think so, I think they just capitalized on a popular form of presentation of traditional, or folk, song. The folk trio was/is no more a development or change than the folk quartet or duo or solo perfomer model. Harmony was nothing new, their guitar styles were not at all innovative. They just sang the songs many of us already new, familiar songs, in a not too offensive way as far as the public was concerned, absolutely useless, worthless, as far as I was concerned, though an ice breaker at a party, or good for a sing along at the bar, which is how they began. I didn't like them then, and have not been interested in hearing them again in later years. Does anyone know how their reissue cd sales are going? I'd be surprised if the numbers are anywhere near the Tom Dooley figures. ANd those millions of albums languish in library sale bins at 25 cents each. That one song, Tom Dooley, was responsible for the album sale. They were at the right place at the right time, just when albums were becoming a more popular format. Prior to that the single 78 or 45 was the norm, people didn't warm up to lps until the late 50s, when more people bought better turntables, the price differential between singles and albums made them attractive, more disposable income was available, radio airplay, transistor radios and payola, all of these factors influenced the record buying public to say, 'I could by the single for a dollar, or the album for 4 dollars, I know the other songs on the album, why not buy it?'. The influence was not the other way around. I don't think KT influenced folk music, but they did cross- over into the POP music charts. Cross-over does not mean influence, it just means more sales. They were an easy listening alternative to rock and roll and rhythym and blues, and 'Folk Songs Sing Along' with Mitch, Limeliters, etc. all jumped on the cash cow the KT were milking. But to be an influence there has to be measurable change, and the KT did not affect any real change in American folk music in my opinion. If you were into folk music you were into folk music, and listening to field recordings, Frank Proffit, etc. If you enjoyed an art song you listened to JJ Niles or Richard Dyer-Bennett, Harry Belafonte, etc. People bought the KT album because they knew and liked the songs already, and it was an easy listening experience, I don't think it was teenagers who bought that recording, but parents. I don't recall, but I might be wrong, them WRITING any song that has come into the 'tradition'. The Beatles influenced american music, changed american music. The Kingston Trio did not. Bob Dylan did. The Limeliters did not. Pete Seeger did. Peter Paul and Mary did not. Johnny Cash did. Elvis did. Judy Collins, Joan Baez did not. This is not to say they didn't influence individuals. They did, but they didn't alter or change or modify the music. They just added their interpretation to the tradition. So I would say this is stilll an open question, though perhaps not an answerable one. I would vote for the Weavers, who did get americans singing together, and maybe more importantly Pete's banjo instruction album. The banjo might have not persisted in american music without that album. That is influence. volume of sales is not by definition influence, it is popularity, which implies acceptance, not change, but something familiar. Change is slow and usually resisted at first. Pete's banjo album was bought by people who would learn to play well enough to pick along at a hootenanny (yes there were such things!) and people got to like the sound. Fingerpicking guitar was picked up by a few and people liked the sound. The 3 chord pop song meant anyone could pick up an electric or acoustic guitar and play well enough to sing along with. These all influenced the music and the culture. KT were just doing it and were promoted well, rode the wave, put out way too many albums that were just re-issues of the same songs, or live, and then were replaced by the next new big thing. No influence. Just popularity. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:21 AM Number 6 - Wasn't Bob Dylan's electic debut "Bringing It All Back Home" ? I seem to remember some electric instruments on "Subterranian Homesick Blues". |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: MissouriMud Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:32 AM Since a number of people have indicated what album had the greatest influence on them personally – I thought I'd add my two cents in. Our family was quite musically oriented. I had a few piano and trumpet lessons and I had a fair amount of exposure to a small but eclectic variety of folk music (along with many other types of music) during the fifties – Burl Ives, Marias & Miranda, singing On top of Old Smokey and Clementine on car trips, Harry Belafonte, Paul Robeson spirituals, Stephen Foster etc.. As a result I enjoyed folk music but no more than any other kind of music. The Kingston Trio album came out when I was in 6th grade and I thought it was pretty cool - I didn't buy it but a friend had it. I liked Three Jolly Coachmen, Banua, Hard Ain't it Hard and Scotch and Soda. I thought Tom Dooley, which did get a fair amount of air play, was a bit odd with its syncopated calypso beat and its spoken opening (I didn't know what the "eternal triangle" was). Then in the summer of 1958 the Kinston Trio At Large album came out with the single MTA and Dave Guard's (relatively simplistic Scruggs) banjo break. As of that moment I wanted to play the banjo - I wanted to be Dave Guard, or at least replace him. That Fall I bought a used 5 string for $50 worth of summer lawn mowing money, along with an instruction book - which happened to be Pete Seeger's How the Play the Five String Banjo - taught myself how to play and became totally obsessed with it for a few years. I had countless other early influences as I learned: Seeger, the Weavers, Eric Darling, The Limelighters, The Greenbriar Boys and of course all the early KT albums just to name a few. I moved up to a Vega longneck after a year (not the Seeger model, I was too poor – the cheaper Folkways model). I read "Sing Out" faithfully and started learning about the some of the pre fifties folks like Leadbelly, Woodie, Ralph Stanley and Earl Scruggs. After a couple of years I got a little bored with the limitations of the banjo and started doodling on the guitar – Joan Baez, Josh White, Cisco Houston. I joined a folk trio in high school playing mostly banjo and the other guys (guitarists) had a lot of other folk albums including Gibson & Camp, the Clancy Brothers, Jack Elliot, Ian and Sylvia, and Judy Collins. When Peter Paul and Mary came out I fell in love with their music and one of the guys taught me how to Travis pick. I learned about every tune on their first five albums. Eventually I went almost exclusively to guitar. Over the years I went through Lightfoot, Simon & Garfield, Dylan, the Byrds, Tom Rush, Eric Anderson, James Taylor, CSN&Y, the Eagles,Beatles and Stones, Grateful Dead, etc, etc - a little bit of Country, a smattering of Bluegrass, a touch of Rock, some of the Blues, a tad of Classical, etc and finally ended up currently playing with an Old Time string band. We do mostly square dance music along with some other traditional songs or tunes (including occasionally a pre KT version of Dooley). I also teach folk guitar and I still do occasional bits of non trad music. I don't play Kingston Trio music much any more, although I do use a few of the tunes they did (like Worried Man) in my teaching - a lot of people know the melody already (probably in great part due to KT's popularization), and the three simple chords with slow changes makes it easy to teach. Other than that I cant say that the Kingston Trio has much influence on the music I play. However, I doubt very much that I would be where I am now if it had not been for MTA – that banjo break in that tune on that album by that group made me get and learn how to play my first folk instrument, gave me the desire to want to play that kind of music well enough to perform, and instilled in me the interest to seek out, learn and incorporate other performances and styles of folk music. And once in a while I get the old Vega out and see if I can still do that damn break. So how typical was my experience for people of that vintage and what was truly my greatest influence? Haven't a clue. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:33 AM Bill, you are missing the point of the opening discussion. "You say Kingston Trio influenced the most people. While I agree they did sell a lot of albums, what do you mean by influence? How were all these people influenced, and to do what? .... They just sang the songs many of us already new, familiar songs, in a not too offensive way as far as the public was concerned, absolutely useless, worthless, as far as I was concerned, though an ice breaker at a party, or good for a sing along at the bar, which is how they began." Right there you spoke volumes. They sang the songs that YOU already knew, but to the general public these were new songs. The "influence" that you are referring to in your posts are certainly valid, but it is not the focus of the original post. The BBC was asking for the album that was most influential on the FOLK REVIVAL, and the poster asked for the U.S. equivalent. The artists that you mention certainly have an influence on the ONGOING folk movement in this country, but the FOLK REVIVAL is a specific time period often marked with the Kington Trio as the starting point and Dylan going electric as the closure. The folk movement existed long before that point and continues to exist well past it. However, in terms of REVIVAL, we cannot overlook the importance of the Kingston Trio. Bill, your points about the music are certainly valid and well thought out. I don't disagree with you - except for the fact that it misses the opening question. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 19 Dec 05 - 12:12 PM You are correct Wesley .... and Highway 61 preceded Blonde on Blonde also ... no excuses for my 'senior moment' in declaring it as his lectric debut ... I guess Blonde on Blonde should be appropriately described as where Bob blew his mind out on that Fender Telecaster ... it took him a little over a year to recuperate from that experience .. and thank God he came out alright after that. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 19 Dec 05 - 12:14 PM Scotch And Soda was the only song that had any lasting effect on me from that red LP. It was moody and told a decent story. Fast Freight only hit me as a pretty good song when I heard it on old friend Steve Gillette's recent CD. Bill Kennedy, This is, again, just my opinion, but... ...the other songs and albums you and others here mention, except for possibly ten or fifteen per cent of the individual songs/cuts on the albums---as done by the Trio and the Limelighters and others of that era--- represented (again, to me) a dumbing down and a watering down of the marvelous tunes and tales told in the historical songs and great ballads found out there among those who kept the real artifacts of the Oral Tradition because they, and their possibly smaller communities, loved them. This, as it is sometimes called, overt commercialization, was accepted by the mass of people the same way the Romans accepted the circuses and gladiators of that era---the way we accept beer, foreign wars, and all of it that is sold to us in multi-million dollar glitzy half-time commercial presentations that titalize (pun intended) and promise, possibly, a bared bosom. I feel we must try to resist any impulse there might be to call any of that music important at all---even if it has influenced some and drawn attention. Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM Yes, Dylan's electric debut was "Bringing It All Back Home" in 1965, which was about half electric, half acoustic, and had probably the finest collection of lyrics he ever put on an album. That was followed by 2 fully electric albums..."Highway 61 Revisited" in 1965 and "Blonde on Blonde" in 1966. Those albums were a gigantic influence, in that they divided the folk community, basically ended the "folk scare", drove people to either hate Dylan (for not meeting their expectations) or love him (for expanding their horizons). The whole scene was influenced by those albums. The Beatles and the Stones and everybody else that mattered much was influenced by them. Hendrix was too. I think the majority of hardcore Dylan fans I've ever met consider "Blonde on Blonde" to be his finest album. I think it's one of the finest, but I rate "Bringing It All Back Home" just a tad above it...I think...not that it really matters. ;-) Opinions, after all, are as common as dust, aren't they? And about as valuable too. The Kingston Trio were there at exactly the right time, and were totally inoffensive and unremarkable. Accordingly, they sold an incredible number of albums. Well, so did Harry Belafonte. Remember? I don't call that influential...I call it "generating big sales". There's a difference. The Monkees generated big sales. The Spice Girls generated big sales too, didn't they? Does anyone care now? Vincent Van Gogh couldn't sell much of anything when he was alive. Would you say he was "not influential" now? Dylan will be remembered for a long time, and so will certain of his songs...specially to musicians. Why? Because he changed the way people thought about life and about themselves. The people who sell a billion albums most easily are the ones who do not present any new ideas at all to the public, but just sound nice and predictable. I don't call that influential, but I do call it profitable. As I recall, the Carpenters consistently outsold Dylan during their heyday. Well...that's good for a laugh, isn't it? Bland predictability sells. Superficial style without content sells. Sound and fury signifying nothing sells. (like "action" movies) Why do you think the entertainment media just repeat themselves most of the time? It demands little thought, and it promises a predictable reward. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM ...and I guess one man's/woman's action film can be the other guy's/gal's mythology. (Please note: I didn't put ladies first.) ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM "The Kingston Trio were there at exactly the right time, and were totally inoffensive and unremarkable. Accordingly, they sold an incredible number of albums. Well, so did Harry Belafonte. Remember? I don't call that influential...I call it "generating big sales". " I'm not trying to say that the Kingston Trio created "art" in the same sense that a group like the Weaver's did. Certainly the impact of the Weavers can be felt in more substantial work than that of the Kingston Trio, a group that largely did "cover tunes". However, getting back once again to the original intent of this thread, I think that it is important to focus on the sales when you are discussing the Kingston Trio. If all they did was sell albums, then your points are valid. However, those sales played an important role in creating THE FOLK REVIVAL, even if it did not seriously alter the ongoing folk movement in this country. I'm drawing a blank on who said it, but recently I heard someone say "Bob Dylan did not change my life, but he changed the way I listen to music". For good or bad, the Kingston Trio did the same thing with their initial album. The people who were involved with folk music on a deeper level would recognize it as a commercialization of "their" music and take offense. For others who had yet to discover what folk music is all about, it was a HUGE gateway. Some people may have lingered by that gate and walked back out when the next big thing hit, but many more walked through and discovered all the artists that many of you are discussing. So, yes, you can call the music of the Kingston Trio important on the influence and/or impact that they had. In this instance, the amount of record sales helped spawn a movement. Yes, there were a number of crass groups and artists that jumped on the bandwagon and issued awful recordings. Yes, there were many more who discovered that the roots were much deeper and found greater influences. I feel it is extremely short-sighted to dismiss the Kingston Trio for those very reasons. I'm not saying that their music was good (although I do think some of it really was), but you need to look at their place in history and the change they helped create. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:07 PM Perhaps the word "Album" is a bit of a red herring to this thread. Folk music by it's very nature is continually influenced by those who have passed by previously. There can be no doubt that The Kingston Trio, PP&M, and The Limelighters were influenced by The Weavers. However we must remember that The Weavers were a re-configuration of The Almanac Singers and so on and so on. The Weavers and the others of The Almanac Singers did not get air play due to McCarthyism. Later groups did not carry the same political baggage , so they became more widely known to the masses through airplay. As I stated before the "album" that most influenced me was "The Rising Of The Moon". That being said the singer that most influenced me was my mother singing old ballads in both Gaelic and English. That is the way of the folk tradition! Slainte agus cum suas e! Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:14 PM Sandy, Very nice! Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Leadfingers Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:16 PM Any one play Darts ?? One Hundred and EIGHTY !!! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:31 PM Then too, the influence of Tiny Tim has been somewhat underrated, I think. Now THERE's a folksinger! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM The majority of people who play and listen to folk music today were influenced by the popularity of the folk groups which started with the million+ selling of the first Kingston Trio album. Yes, there were others who recorded folk music and influenced people, but not as many as them. Dead horse? whip and ride! Some may call this era a "dumbing down." I prefer to refer to those as "snobbing up." Maybe, just maybe, Hank Williams had more influence then the Weavers, Burl (the beard) Ives, and Pete Seeger all put together. You know Hank Williams the folk singer, don't you? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors! Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM I hate to be the one to break it to you, but most people consider Hank Williams to be "Country and Western." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,LCtC Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:40 PM Merde, I think he knows that. He's just trolling. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM Martin. Not nice! Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors! Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:44 PM Right! Where's Billy Goat Gruff when you need him? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM I actually DO consider Hank Williams to be sort of a folksinger. His influence was tremendous. There was a time when folk and country were pretty much walking the same road. He was probably the first really big musical influence on the young Bob Dylan. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,mr blobby, halifax UK Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:05 AM oh dear... if this the state of folk discussion in the states.... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:00 PM No, it's just the state of folk discussion on this forum, period. At the moment. That could change anytime. All it would require is one or two new people to enter the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: David C. Carter Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:11 PM In Britain we had Tom Dooley all over the radio,I already had a guitar at that time.I was 12 then,but it wasn't untill our neibour's daughter moved back to London with her husband, who was from De Kalb,Illinois,with a stack of country albums, that my guitar took on a new meaning.It wasn't just the music,it was a window onto something that couldn't be found anywhere in the place I was living.It seemed to come from some other planet.I can't explain the effect it had on me.All the other music went out the window as far as I was concerned.It wasn't just Hank Williams of course,but he started it off for me.Suddenly a whole new world opened up which,in my own small way I just had to be part of.One couldn't sit still and just let this stuff come down the airwaves,you wanted to be like the singers,who they were and where were all these places that they were singing about.Living in some London backstreet,already bored by it all,this in a naive way,was a way out of there.I think I'll shut up now.... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:45 PM Little Hawk, you are on my wavelength. Country and Western, or as billboard called it "folk and hillbilly" I believe, were and are completely intertwined. Only the brayers with their lutes do not get this. As I mentioned earlier, there was not much of a folk music identity before the Kingston Trio's first album. The Grammy awards had no folk music catagory and Tom Dooley won best country and western song in 1958, launching the folk genre from there on out. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:21 PM I'm with you LH and MG .... with that I should mention the Sons of the Pioneers .... they had a hit in the 1950's .. a song worth mentioning called 'Cool Clear Water'. I'm sure that song provided seeds for future songwriters. I should also mention this song was written by Bob Nolan ... a Canadian born in New Brusnwick. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM Yeah, folk and hillbilly started out hand in hand. The music business, for its own marketing reasons, started dividing the music up into more and more specific categories as time went by...so "hillbilly" became "country music" after awhile, then became "new country" more recently...soft rock with a ten gallon hat and a western twang! As for "folk", there are so many kinds of folk music now that you can argue till you're blue in the face about which one is the REAL folk music and never resolve it. It's like arguing about who is cuter, Chongo or Bonzo. A waste of time. Commercially successful mainstream "folk" music probably did get the biggest push at the beginning from the Kingston Trio. That doesn't make them MY biggest influence, but that hardly matters. I liked them a lot at the time, but quickly moved on to Joan Baez and various others on the Vanguard label. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:40 PM Aren't hillbillies the original folks, as in folk music (specifically American here)? sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM Most influential album, I would go for Penguin Eggs by Nic Jones. I would say it has influenced more modern folkies than any other. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Martin gibson Date: 21 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM What is a "modern folkie?" You mean someone who sings with an aooustic guitar and mostly fingerpicks recently written songs? As you brits would say: rubbish. as I would say: bullshit |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM I am a modern folkie. Chongo isn't. It's that simple. Well, no, let's be serious...a modern folkie, to me, is someone who happens to have some familiarity and liking for various aspects of historical music that can be termed "folk music", and some awareness of that tradition and the various style of music which grew out of it...which is to say...he/she likes that music a bit more than, say, hip-hop, jazz, broadway, soul, Motown, Rock, Techno, Lionel Ritchie, and...ummm...or maybe... Oh.....screw it! A "modern folkie" is any damn thing you think it is. And that's totally up to you. In any case, I am and Chongo isn't. Anne Murray, I'm not sure of. I do know this, though, she's the world's best sleeping pill. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, alors! Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:32 PM Before you can determine what a "modern folkie" is, you first need to decide what a "folkie" is. And you also need to decide what you mean by "modern." Is someone currently living (a "modern" person) who sings very old traditional songs and ballads and accompanies him/herself with a lute a "modern folkie?" Or is a "modern folkie" someone who only sings modern songs. If so, how modern? Or, for that matter, does it have to be only American folk music? What if they sing Irish songs? How about Balkan music? Brazilian? Swahili? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:35 PM Yes indeed. Food for thought. My guess is that we could beat this one around for another 800 posts easy, and only begin to scratch the surface... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM Have we ever had a thread that asked for a definition of folk music ??? How about this for a thread title - "What is Folk?" |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:43 PM 200 |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:50 PM YES! We have. There were so many discussions as to "What is Folk Music?" early in the history of this forum that it became a bad joke after awhile. I do not recommend starting such a thread again at this juncture, as that particular horse has been beaten so dead that nothing is left but some dry bones. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:58 PM Ah - Little Hawk - don't you know a joke when you see one ? I have been here for a few years y'know. What we really need to do is start a thread about the movie "Songcatcher" Get started on it - OK ? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM You are so right, Wesley. We do need a thread about that. ;-) You wanna launch it or shall I? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Wesley S Date: 21 Dec 05 - 05:49 PM Go for it. Perhaps it should be called "What does William Shatner think about Songcatcher"? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 21 Dec 05 - 07:05 PM "As I mentioned earlier, there was not much of a folk music identity before the Kingston Trio's first album. The Grammy awards had no folk music catagory and Tom Dooley won best country and western song in 1958, launching the folk genre from there on out." Martin Gibson Actually thats a good point concerning the Grammys, which was mentioned before. Nobody knew what to do with the KT's big "hit" and album. I think by the next year that had changed alot. Hard to argue that point- not that the Grammys are the be-all end-all of the music world, but what did they call what Bill Haley did before "rock & roll" was coined-or "rock"? When a single group or artist compels the Grammys to CREATE a new category I'd say thats the beginning of something, no? Sure there were folksinger etc. before but this started a whole new thing, thus fits the initial question I think. (Can't believe this thread is still going!!!!) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: bobad Date: 21 Dec 05 - 07:19 PM IMO Tom Russell is a modern, American, folk artist. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Paul Rockland Date: 28 Dec 05 - 04:09 PM Most Influencial album-without a doubt "Guitar Fat Brown Sings the Blues" with "My Momma Don't love me, but neither Does My Dawg" played in an open tuning which no one has figgered out. Had my Rockland "Blues Box" (retail now well over 11k heavily used and dinged). "Fat" is on tour in Memphis, Tallahatchee and all points south of the Mason Dixon line. Born in 1937, "Guitar Fat Brown" will eat AND play at the same time leading to his slide technique. Is due in for gastric bypass in Feb. at Veterans Memorial in Canandaigua NY. Catch him in Nashville if you can at "Willy's Rib's 'n Things". In 1956 he led the way with a bluesy version of "Thom Duly" which predated the Kingston Trio. In his version, Thom committed suicide by lethal injection of pork fat. And yeah he had the siph. or was it syph? Guitar Fat had the syph-not Thom. Guitar Fat will issue a two CD commemorative set before the Feast of Kings on 1/6 so watch yer record stores. NO ONE does folk/blues like Guitar Fat Brown--NO ONE!!!!! He taught Belafonte his accent. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:07 PM Right. Guitar Fat is a household name that influenced everyone who bought a Martin guitar. Or a Gibson or even a Jap brand. Sounds like Guitar Fat influenced nothing but a fucking heart attack. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:56 PM Holy crap. How did I ever miss hearing Guitar Fat Brown? Someone alert the archivists at once! Gotta git me a boxed set of Guitar Fat Brown NOW! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Paul Rockland Date: 28 Dec 05 - 07:09 PM Mr. Brown will only play MY guitars-Rocklands which you can only order from ME, and only if your grammar is perfect and you NEVER mention another player's Rockland, or NO SOUP FOR YOU! You probably never heard of me either but I have been mentioned with high praise on the Martin Guitar Forum and many others. As for Mr. Guitar Fat Brown just because he isn't in YOUR household shows how totally musically bereft you truly are. The man is a legend. One time while eating a "po' boy" of ribs and steak on stage he did things with his guitar slide you can only imagine. His version of "Mama Hates the Fleas on Her Pussycat" is in virtually every archive of every radio station in the U.S. of A. By the way I line all my guitars with one-dollar bills to support the side kerfing. They would make a Martin owner weep, and I've seen it happen. CFIV himself is on my build list-luckily his grammar is perfect. Many flatpicking champions who have won very expensive dreadnoughts would trade them in a heartbeat for what Guitar Fat Brown plays. Perhaps I can get his agent to put a post here so you can send "Fat" a get well card and beg his forgiveness for your impertinence. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Bill M. Date: 28 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM hey-found this quote on another website about this "Fats" guy. Just a kinda F.Y.I. for the curious---Wm. Manchester III "...It's gonna be awesome. "Fat" won't allow his stuff to be put on iTunes or any other online music service so that limits his popularity these days. You kind of have to hunt to find his stuff. He was really slow to even come out on CD. Most of the stuff I have is on LP. He was up for a Grammy in 1974 for his breakout album that really brought him to the blues public eye: "Fat, Brown and Blue All Over". This was the first mass market recording of "Nobody But My Mamma Love Me...". He didn't win that year but it did lead to a tour that brought him out of Mississippi for the first time in his life. The new one will be a retrospective of some of his best songs through the years and does indeed include such legends as Blind Mellow Jelly, David St. Hubbins and Derek Smalls, Ladysmith Black Mombazo, David Bowie and the most amazing version of "Dueling Banjos" ever featuring Fat's Rockland BB-50 (Blues Box) and BB King on "Lucille". With the holidays upon us I also have to recommend Guitar Fat Brown's Christmas album "Ghosts of Christmas Past" featuring remixed duets with various dead singers including Bing Crosby, Burl Ives, Kate Smith, Nat King Cole, Jim Morrison, Sid Vicious and Karen Carpenter." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Claymore Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:05 PM Way back up the thread I asked if anyone knew the flip side of the "Tom Dooley" 45RPM. It was "MTA" which was not included (as I remember) on their first album "the red one". And in my case, it was the lonesome roll of "Darling Cory" that caused me to get my Vega Seeger in '62 (which I still have and frequently use to this day). It is stil the fastest banjo to change keys in, and works well in any Contra dance series of tunes. (No thread creep intended). I did note that the vast majority of this thread was devoted to the unstated question "Was the Kingston Trio album/group make-up/instruments/style of dress/selection of songs/etc. the most "influential" during the folk scare/late fifties/early sixties/pre-Dylan/pre-Beatles era?" I'd have to say that since no-one asked the question, "Who were the Kingston Trio?", the question as to which was the most influential album, by which group, answers itself... And as a sort of test of this, I have tried a sort of experiment, during our weekly jam at O'Hurleys General Store, in Shepherdstown, WV, for the past couple of weeks. The jam has been going for some twenty-seven years now, and musicians come from miles around to attend (mostly from the DC area). As it happens, there are also three sizable Federal learning institutions adjacent to the town, including the National Conservation Training Center, the OPM Senior Management Academy, and the Academy for the Homeland Security/FEMA, which we locals call the "School of Shadow Government". During the course of study at any of these schools, the classes are literally bussed to O'Hurleys, to get a "taste of the local music". Since this area is also one of the two epicenters of Hammered Dulcimer music, the crowds are quite large, with ten to twenty musicians and a crowd ranging up to a hundred crowded into the store's back room. My test has been simple; a friend of mine who used to open for Tom Paxton on the East Coast many years ago, Steve Hartman, will strike up any of the KTs songs, as well as an occasional PPM, Dylan, Weavers, or even some Clancy Bros. The crowd will roar back the words or chorus of any of the KT songs, but only "Good Night Irene" of the Weavers, usually only "Puff", "500 Miles" or "Hammer" from PPM, and usually only "Don't Think Twice" from Dylan. But always every KT song from the first three albums. And understand, that while many in the audience are in their forties and fifties, many are much younger and a sizeable group come from the local university. Now does the audience self-select to a certain extent? And the answer is "yes"; but among those who choose to attend, it's whose words they remember... |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM Good points Claymore. Lends a credability to Martin Gibsons points, no? One thing tho-I think the flipside of Tom Dooley was Ruby Red not MTA. This would be a little known trivia fact of course. MTA was a single on its own after it showed up on the At Large album which was the first one Mr. David Guard played a Seeeger longneck Vega on and thus popularized them more than Mr. Seeger ever did or Bob Gibson for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:24 AM |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Turkishbath Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:53 AM That would be "Sgt. Peppers Lonely..." ooops. Wrong category. Have to say "Weavers at Carnegie Hall" or those stripe-shirted guys mentioned above for their first album, self titled The Kingston Trio for the reasons already beaten to death: it brought a mainly esoteric music genre into mainstream culture, along with the acoustic guitar craze, banjo craze and garage folk-groups. What WAS it you wanted to write Art Thieme? Nothing appears in your little box up there (?). |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:33 AM Fats and Jim Morrison are amazing on Silent Night...Holy Kingdom of the Death Adder. While Fats coaxes distorted feedback from a combination mellotron and banjo which he invented (the mellanjo), Morrison seduces the listener down a ghostly path littered with "cracked scotch pines oozing fragrant itching sap, cradling fractured ornaments like the crowns of crawling swamp-creatures" to the very graveyard of Christmas itself described : "Cold Holiday spirit groom courting the crouching bestial new year...at his feet let us lay a pantomime!". Great listening for the entire family at this festive, and yet somehow depressing, season. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Ghostrider in the Sky Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM Gotta gets me that Guitar Fat Brown Christmas CD toot sweet. Did the Sid Vicious song "Gonna Kill Me a Streetcorner Santa (and Gouge out His Eyes)" make it on too? A real gem of lyrical defecation if there ever was one. Didn't know Fat Brown came up with that Mellanjo. Morrison's song is soooooo angst-ridden. If this came out in '58 it wouldda been the most influencial album fer sure dudes. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:54 PM Guitar Fat Brown .... did he ever play with Deaf Eddie ?? sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Number 9 Number 9 Number 9 Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:13 PM Deaf Eddie? Dunno. But his hits CD has Blind Mellow Jelly, David St. Hubbins, Derek Smalls, Ladysmith Black Mombazo, David Bowie & BB King. It was because of Guitar Fat I first bought a Martin D28 tho. "Turn me on, dead man" |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:45 PM Thanks for the info Number 9 Number 9 Number 9 ... My mother-in-law who served as a nurse with the British Military Medical Core during the Big One WWII told me they issued pills called Number 9's for those suffering from severe constipation. "Take this brother, may it serve you well" :) sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Ron Davies Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:56 PM Lonesome EJ-- That's priceless. Were you a blurb writer in another life? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Greycap Date: 30 Dec 05 - 03:52 AM Ramblin' Jack Elliott - "Jack Takes The Floor" - a 10" Topic LP |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bill t' bodger Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:23 AM I have to add my bit I think after following this thread for a week or so, I grew up listening to Pete Seeger and TKT at large courtesy of my Dad, I think these probably influenced a lot of the 40 something crowd later I started looking at their peers and influences and found a common name Woody Guthrie, he wrote a lot of divergent songs from nursery songs to politacal protests, P S interpreted them for the world as does Billy Bragg now I think Billy Bragg is a current influence with the same material as 50 years ago so maybe Woody should take his place with pride. In the states many of the "folk" singers were marginalised because of politics in the 50s leaving their true influence subdued. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 30 Dec 05 - 07:00 PM Woody's influence was large and certainly used/felt/performed by even the commercial groups like the KT (e.g. "Pastures of Plenty" & "This Land" on Guard's final album with them) and tunes like Wildwood Flower on Reuben James in John Stewart's era with then. But Woody never hit it commercially like the pop folkies and mostly was regretably forced to listen to his songs performed by others. At least it got his name out there so he influenced the music but not really the big "boom" in folk music in the US in the late 50's and 60's. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:18 AM I profer several Beatles albums in answer to this thread -included are; 1) Abbey Road - "Here Comes The Sun" forces folkies everywhere to go out and buy a Capo! 2) Help!- "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" is the perfect folk song.Come to think of it- so is "Help!". 3) Let It Be - "Two Of Us" are still going nowhere spending someones hard earned pay and "Across The Universe" just is. 4) Beatles For Sale - "I Don't Want To Spoil The Party" I've had a drink or two and I don't care and the lyrics are still utilised to this day. 5) White Album - "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" is as stark a warning as you can get to stay away from Heroin. With an obvious tip of the hat to Mr Zimmerman. 6) Rubber Soul - This album is a marriage of convenience between pop and folk and serves to this day as the one Beatles album that folkies will go out and buy and not crucify.And "Norwegian Wood" makes you want to become a busker or join "The Spinners". I may choose to continue in this rich literary vein or hand over the honours to another like minded Beatles afficianado. Who knows ? Who cares ? I don't! Happy New Year. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:41 AM Well Sidewinder there ya go .... honkin your horn for your old dear Fab Four .... just can't break away from your collegiate days ... The Beatles and the songs you mention above will fade away much as Tang, Mr. Ed, and the Perry Como sweater into the sunset of history. OK, I have to admit I do like "Two of Us" and "I Don't want to Spoil the Party". The Beatles made a great bang in that period of history and today we are still feeling the after shocks, but let's face it, they never really cut a path in the music world. Good, ok, Great Songs, but so was " Tennesee Waltze" by Les Paul. BTW ... you forgot another good song off of Beatles for Sale "NO Reply". sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:43 AM ... and I forgot .... HAPPY NEW YEAR to you too Sidewinder. sincerely, sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 31 Dec 05 - 12:33 PM Claymore, I did mention way up on this thread in your response that Ruby Red was the flipside of Tom Dooley. If you have MTA, it is a re-issue disc with back to back hits that were popular for juke boxes. Annony Mouse is right. No one much knew of Woody Guthrie overall until Peter, Paul, and Mary had a definitive hit of This Land is Your Land. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 31 Dec 05 - 02:10 PM Hey-MG--I mentioned Ruby Red too-so did someone else I think. Sure wasnt MTA. I don't even think they recorded that song until At Large sessions and by then Guard had his Vega LN. That album cover made me drool for Martins, Vegas and striped shirts. I think the KTs cover of This Land blew away PP&M's even tho most associate the song with PP&M. Guards rhythmic banjo upstrokes and percussive thump put a jolt into that tune even ol Woody woulda liked. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 01 Jan 06 - 08:28 AM Well my old friend 6 you still feel compelled to playdown the achievements of the single most influential group in music history.I am pleased that you like "No Reply" etc. (and admit that they are great songs).But c'mon, all the albums mentioned are milestones in the rich tapestry of popular music and you are fighting a losing battle if you think they can be dismissed along with Perry Comos sweaters et al. Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: number 6 Date: 01 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM Partly Jabbin ya there Sidewinder ... I feel they did make a somewhat influence witht the alubms/songs prementioned ... but not a significant influence ... but more than the Perry Como sweater. sincerely, sIx |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Peace Date: 02 Jan 06 - 12:03 AM I knew of Woody Guthrie way before that--well, a few years, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 02 Jan 06 - 01:27 PM Probably true, Peace. But very few others did. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Wobo Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:07 PM We have yet to discuss the significance of Barney the Dinosaur in regards to all this. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: gnu Date: 02 Jan 06 - 02:57 PM Barney.. I am detracing. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bill t' bodger Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:05 AM As I live in the UK I find it difficult to get hold of the CD re-issues of many albums that are important parts of our musical heritage, so as a younster (only 41) I have to put up with cmpilations of many of my favourite US artists from the 40s to the 60s, this will not stop me because I love the music, though it means my knowledge is sometimes limited BTW I'm not a fan of the beatles |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Duke Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:41 AM Elvis got me to playing the guitar, but I had been listening to Irish music on my grandmothers windup victrola since I could remember. When the folk clubs and coffee houses started up in the late fifties I had many favourite performers of whom James Michael McCarthy was the best of all although I don't believe he ever recorded. Once I was properly introduced to folk music, I listened to everyone I could, starting with Leadbelly! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:34 AM For me it was the first Joan Baex Album. I don't think it matters what chronological order albums came in but which had the most impact. I think Joan did becuase she introduced many of us to more traditional types of music. Also Liege and Lief by Fairport and Hark the Etc..by Steeleye were both very influential. In Canada it was probably Alan Mills and Oscasr Brand. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 03 Jan 06 - 09:50 AM 'Greatest Hits' by Donovan. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: pdq Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM Not "Manitas de Plata Plays Gershwin"? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:39 PM Wobo - you probably meant it as a joke, but I would not doubt that 20 years from now you will hear people talk about Barney the Dinosaur as their first exposure to folk music. My daughter was hooked on the show, and while the dinosaur was obnoxious as hell, I was glad that they did incorporate a few folk songs in the mix. For me, my first memory of "folk" music was when Captain Kangaroo shared folk songs on his show. (Aside from my mother singing songs.) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 04 Jan 06 - 07:54 PM If I had started this thread I would be more than a little preturbed by the inane drivel that is proferred forth by the snowblind debutantes who purposely hijack and redefine these requests to their own ends. But I didn't start it so I'm not really bothered -just thought I'd make a point! Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 04 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM I have to agree with Sidewinder. Part of the problem is that the definition of "influential" needs to be tightened up. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 04 Jan 06 - 10:13 PM I always read the title of this thread as what it is, "Most Influential album" as a general rule. Not what was most influential to me. I stick to my guns, The Kingston Trio first album was folk music's most influential album. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 04 Jan 06 - 11:15 PM You miss my point. The Kingston Trio didn't spring full-grown from the forehead of Zeus. Who or what influenced them to do folk music in the first place? The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:04 AM deli-youre right. Becha Guard would say the Weavers (look at the group he tried to form after the kT). Shane'd prolly say "to get girls". Both those guys were from Hawaii and influenced a lot by slack key like Pahanui's, and Island groups too. Reynold's dad was a navy guy and sang sea chantys. But even Dylan in his book says they influenced HIM. I think I still go with that first album of theirs. OK now you can say I'm talking to myself again. LOL. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Kaleea Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:49 AM I believe that in the history of albums, there were 2 records which were most influential. After hearing the 1968 record, The Transformed Man, by William Shatner, the general public was influenced to throw away money on records made by non singer-TV has beens. The recording industry was influenced to sell horrendous monstrosities simply because the monster on the recording had a large fan following. The 1979 record, The Ethel Merman Disco Album, which has long been misunderstood, was in actuality a diabolical plan by the brilliant Ms. Merman in an attempt to end the axis of evil known as "disco." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 06 - 06:11 PM I think that what the Deli Lama (!!???) says about pinning the definition of "influential" down a bit tighter, as in 'who influenced whom?" points out that the question leads to a sort of infinite regression. Each step along the way influences the next step, and that next step would not have happened had it not been for the one preceding it. It is true that the Kingston Trio's first album was the first recording of folk songs that vast numbers of people bought like a pop-music record, which, at the time, it actually was (a sort of cross-over album), and it did inspire a lot of kids to take up guitars and banjos. No doubt about that. But once the popular phase of the Kingston Trio was eclipsed by the Beatles and the rest of the British Invasion, their influence pretty much died out except for a hard-core group of fans. I don't want to take anything away from the Kingston Trio that they deserve, but essentially their music was derivative. They didn't really add anything that hadn't been done before by others. There were the Weavers, the Gateway Singers, and the Almanac Singers before them, not to mention a whole raft of solo singers such as Burl Ives, Cynthia Gooding, Josh White, Frank Warner, and many others. A lot of older singers (coffeehouse variety and others) who learned their songs from the records of Burl Ives, Ed McCurdy, Jean Ritchie, Richard Dyer-Bennet, and others, and from books by Carl Sandburg and the Lomaxes, and who were singing them long before the Kingston Trio came along, found that it was a royal pain in the ass when they would get a request for a song, sing it, and then have the person making the request bitch at them because they didn't singing it the way the Kingston Trio did it. I speak from experience, because it happened to me fairly often. Tends to be a bit off-pissing. I mean, who made the Kingston Trio the authority on how a song should be done? Not their fault, of course, but there it was! The Kingston Trio wasn't the problem, it was some of their gung-ho fans. It's amazing how bent out of shape some folks can get when others don't fully share their enthusiasm (sometimes bordering on worship) of the Kingston Trio. It's as if someone has insulted their mother or something! The Kingston Trio was damned good. But let's try to keep things in perspective. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:27 PM the records that mde me want to play folk songs: dust bowl ballads come fill your glass with me - clancy brothers complete willie mctell i saw the light - hank williams |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM No, lemme revise that a bit. I said that "Each step along the way influences the next step, and that next step would not have happened had it not been for the one preceding it." Giving that another think, I'm more of the opinion that there was such a groundswell of interest in folk music throughout the Fifties, with coffeehouses opening up in New York, Cambridge, Chicago Denver, Berkeley, Los Angeles, and Seattle where folk singers gathered, along with a few dedicated folk clubs like the Gate of Horn in Chicago and the Hungry i and the Tin Angel in San Francisco, that one would have to be a bit slow not to realize that here was a big wave coming in that one could quite possibly surf on. I agree with the first part of my sentence, "Each step along the way influences the next step," but not totally with the second part, "that the next step would not have happened had it not been for the one preceding it." How the next step would be influenced would be the question. The wave would have continued to rise and more and more people would have gotten involved in folk music even if the Kingston Trio hadn't come along. It might not have been a big blip on the popular music charts, but it would have been there, nevertheless. But at the same time, things were ripe for someone to jump on the surf board, and had it not been the Kingston Trio, it could very easily have been some other group. Or possibly some individual (Belafonte was well under weigh by then, he filled theaters and auditoriums wherever he sang, and he was selling a lot of records) . Conditions were right for just about anyone who wanted to give it a shot. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 05 Jan 06 - 09:36 PM We are not talking steps or who influenced who here Deli Sandwich and Don Firth. THAT IS A DIFFERENT THREAD. We are talking most influential album. Why don't you guys get it? The name of the thread is most influential album! The Kingston Trio's album was a folk music album. You purists can deny it all you want, call it want you want, and dismiss it all you want, but it was a folk music album, found in the folk music section in record stores, played on folk music radio shows, and it influenced more people than any before or since in folk music. Because the Kingston Trio made the popular music charts (Oh for shame, Don!), because their first album sold a million copies, because they boosted sales and influenced more guitar playing and buying, because after that first album, every major label went looking for a folk group to sell, because they showed that just about anyone could do it and HAVE A GOOD TIME and again (omigod!) make money at it. their first album was the most influential. When are you "purrrrrrrists" going to get that it's not about who influenced you because it's really not about just you or if Burl Ives could fit into a small airplane seat, it's about the MOST INFLUENTIAL ALBUM completely to everything and the masses. SHEESH! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 05 Jan 06 - 10:17 PM Man, you are really ego-involved in this, arent' you? Okay, have it your way. The Kingston Trio set off the Big Bang, invented Velveeta, and now live on Mount Olympus. Get a life!! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 06 Jan 06 - 01:25 PM Okay, I stayed up all night meditating about this. Let me see if I've finally got it straight. If you first got interested in folk music because you heard the Kingston Trio on the radio or in your parents' record collection, learned everything they ever recorded, then went on to learn more songs from the records of Peter Paul and Mary and the Limeliters and the New Christy Minstrels and Trini Lopez and Jimmie ("Honeycomb") Rodgers, and you now play in a bluegrass group, support the American economy by voting against such socialist corruption as increases in the minimum wage, and are willing to undergo any kind of violation of Constitutional protections of private citizens in the interest of frustrating what George W. Bush calls "evil-doers," and want to see all Arabs put to the sword, and generally talk like you swallowed a septic tank, and are eager to savage anyone who suggests that the Kingston Trio didn't invent folk music in the basement of their frat house back in 1958, that means you are an upstanding patriotic hard working American citizen and a credit to the country. If you learned the songs you sing from the early records of Burl Ives, Ed McCurdy, Jean Ritchie, or from the Smith "Anthology of American Folk Music," or from Sandburg's "American Songbag" or Lomax's "Folk Songs of North America," or from a dog-eared copy of "Song Fest," and if you know who Francis James Child and Cecil Sharp were, and you are aware that "They Call the Wind Mariah" is not a folk song, that it came from a Broadway musical, and even if you thought the Kingston Trio was a pretty good group, you never bought any of their records to learn songs from, that means you are a left-wing peacenik liberal dope-smoking commie hippy with the sex habits of an alley cat (probably gay), even if you used to sing along on "Hava Nagila," are anti-Semitic, haven't bathed since 1948, and never support the American economy by shopping at Wal-Mart, that makes you a folk singing PURIST. Yes, I think I've got it now. The Deli (make that sandwich corned beef) Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 06 Jan 06 - 03:54 PM There you go again Deli over simplifying the mammoth task of stating, in your own opinion, what is the most influencial Album (of All Time?). I refer fellow travellers on the highway of life to my earlier posting. Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:05 PM LOL! Brilliant summation, Deli-Lama. The battlelines have now been drawn in absolutely crystal-clear terms. All people have to do is decide which side they are on. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:26 PM I thought it was pretty dumb, Deli. You really don't get it. all those things you mentioned have happened with burl ives, ritchie, etc. They just happened to a few, like you compared to massive throngs of others. That's why it's called "most influential." Not "most influential" for a relatively few comparatively. It has nothing to do with ego, pal. It has everything to do with you not knowing the sky is blue and what really had impact. Impact, as in: MOST Influential Now, I also find that people who say, "Get a Life" usually lose the arguement or discussion, because for them, that's all they have left to say. You left out one thing for folk-music purist, also. They are usually fat and have beards. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:44 PM "......usually fat and have beards." Thank you, Martin Gibson. I'll add that to the list. And buns! Don't forget about the flabby buns! I am most grateful, oh Great Guru Martin, for the pearls of deep wisdom that fall from your mouth (carefully sterilized, of course!) as I sit, cross-legged at your feet. You are most generous with my abject ignorance. Please, continue to lead this humble and pathetic person to true enlightenment! The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:50 PM OK, someone has to! Now, worship me and get me a salami sandwich on rye. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Merde, Alors! Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:14 PM I go away for a few days, come back, and discover that once again Martin Gibson is suffering from dillusions of adequacy. Don't lead him on like that, Deli. You may not be aware of this, but he actually thinks you're serious. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:18 PM But I just finished making his sandwich (I slipped his meds into the mustard). The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 07 Jan 06 - 03:02 PM Sorry, Deli, I won't eat your goyishe deli meat. And I know you are serious. Everyone knows you say things like that seriously and we laugh at you for it. Merde, Alors where did you go? To find a decent country to live in where Islamic youth don't run your streets?? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 07 Jan 06 - 03:17 PM There's a lot of good information in this thread from people who have serious opinions and, in fact, were there at the time and watched all of this go down. Unfortunately, it's people like Martin Gibson, with his pig-headed, narrow-minded inability to consider or even tolerated opinions other than his own, and who has to attack everyone who doesn't agree with him, who has turned this thread into trash, like he does on most threads he pollutes. But the good information is still there, if you just ignore Martin Gibson. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 07 Jan 06 - 03:52 PM My information is best, guest and is right on. Many here have agree with it. This thread is not about any person, just opinions and mine are very strong. I cordially invite you to PM me and discuss it but you won't because you have no credibility as a Guest and most here know that. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 04:30 PM Based on the original post, Martin is right - the referenced BBC survey was for the most influential album of all time, not the one that most influenced you as an individual. It is an interesting question where the KT drew their songs from. But that aside, Martin may well be right as far as the American folk craze of the late 50s to early 60s is concerned. In terms of the sheer number who were influenced toward folk music. It probably wasn't "Puff, the Magic Dragon". :D A |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:08 PM I really did not care for "Puff the Magic Dragon" one bit. The KT song I remember most fondly was the one about Charlie who couldn't get off the MTA (subway in Boston), because they had raised the fare and he didn't have enough change to pay it. I would be willing to fight endless battles with you AS a logged-in member of Mudcat, Martin, but I don't think I have enough time right now to do it properly. ;-) Hell, I don't even have time to write another Chongo story. Most male folkies ARE fat and have beards. I've noticed that. I take delight in being thin and not having a beard, just to be contrary. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 07 Jan 06 - 06:19 PM Granted, the Kingston Trio sold a truckload of records, but how many people did they really influence--in the long term? Do you know anyone who has sung about Charlie's plight on the MTA lately? How about "Zombie Jamboree?" How many guitars bought while the Kingston Trio was hot have been sitting unattended in closets or attics for the past forty years? How many people are still playing compared to those for whom it was just a flash in the pan? Serious question. Anybody have a serious answer? Any actual statistics? The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM KT were of very brief interest for me. I think I liked them a lot for about a year. Then I discovered Joan Baez, and pretty well forgot about the Kingston Trio after that. I still like Joan Baez a whole lot. But, man, if you the Kingston Trio were geeky and collegiate, check out the "Fernwood Trio". Yikes! You just can't GET cooler than these guys... And I KNOW their rythm guitar player. He's put on a few pounds, but still has that fresh-scrubbed look. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 07 Jan 06 - 09:11 PM There were about 17,673,821 trios exactly like that back about then. They played a few gigs, wowed the more naive girls in their high schools, or sang at a few fraternity dances, earned a total of $75.00, never did get a record contract, and burned out within a year and a half. They all became doctors, lawyers, accountants, and truck drivers and haven't touched an instrument in forty years. A couple of years later, the trios consisted of two guys and a girl with long straight blonde hair (she ironed it). They sang "Puff, the Magic Dragon" and "500 Miles" a lot. Same fate. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Jan 06 - 10:21 PM Well, Deli, I seem to remember a rather spirited rendition of Charlie on the MTA that was performed by Amos "Juke Box" Jessup and a group of us at the Getaway in October. Everybody seemed to know the words. The most influential album for me was probably The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan, but I've got to say MG is right on this one. Besides, he's liable to set fire to my garage if I disagree with him. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 10:28 PM Yes, Deli, but the guy in the Fernwood Trio that I know actually managed to release 2 LP's with the trio and he is STILL playing live music to this day. A little RESPECT (!) please...for the coolest of the cool. He also succeeded in seducing naive local girls for much longer than a year and a half, God knows... ;-) I figure maybe 10 years. Maybe more. He's really short, and you know short guys...they just won't give up. (Also, there are some REALLY naive girls in this town. I mean, seriously. "Like, y'know? Whatever...") |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: alanabit Date: 08 Jan 06 - 10:16 AM Sh - or I might have to visit your town LH! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 08 Jan 06 - 12:37 PM But my question remains unanswered. Are these the rules? Or are they the exceptins? The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Dr Winston O Boogie. Date: 09 Jan 06 - 07:32 AM Don't need no sword to cut through flowers. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bill t' bodger Date: 09 Jan 06 - 09:29 PM I thought this thread was about music and influences in music not bloody american politics and posing, I give up now as I feel let down by a few idiots in a personal power play you sad W@#~**!rs! I looked forward to hearing about peoples influences and inspiration from the past history of music and putting in my own influences and even who influenced some of them .............whts the point I am thinking of starting a thread just for you few called "I'm a bigger C@#t than you" |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 09 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM You see, Deli Lama, you yourself said it. "There were about 17,673,821 trios exactly like that back about then." But The Kingston Trio were the first to influence that many. No one else came close to what they accomplished for folk music even if that was an exagerated number. Plain and simple, they turned on people to guitars, banjos, and folk music. Where people went from there is like exits off of an Interstate Highway. Bill t'bodger, you sound like kind of a moron who likes to make up his own rules. Go ahead and start your thread. You will win. Next time come up with something to say in a thread before waiting 274 posts and a month to say what you think this thread isn't. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 09 Jan 06 - 11:10 PM But Marvin, I'm not quibbling about that. The question I asked, and it relates to the matter of REAL influence, was how many of these clone trios lasted beyond a year or two? How many of those newly purchased guitars and banjos kept being played, compared to the number that wound up in closets or in garage sales? Riddle me that, Oh, Grate One. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bill t' bodger Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:45 PM I did post earlier a couple of times with my honest conribution to the thread which I have been following for a while. I am a fan of Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, let us not forget Pete was unable t release records for a long time because of his politics and standing up for the underdog. it was during this period that The Kingston Trio became popular with the politicians and rascists in power cutting him off from the people who enjoyed his music. I AM A MUSIC LOVER I am not just a stupid kid who likes trading insults. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 10 Jan 06 - 03:29 PM O Gibbous One, I'm afraid your analogy of the Interstate highway doesn't work. Where did all those cars on your Interstate come from in the first place? They didn't just suddenly pop into existence, already on the Interstate, from out of nowhere. On-ramps, my boy, on-ramps. All those people that YOU never heard of, that you're discounting as not having any influence. Just because they were not YOUR particular influence doesn't mean that they were not a big influence on a lot of other people. Including, I might point out, the Kingston Trio. Ask yourself, who influenced the Kingston Trio? Why did they choose to do folk music? Obviously, THEY had been influenced themselves by the people that you're trying to claim had little or no influence. A breeze, a current, a wind, all going in the same way, each one not enough to do it all by itself, but the accumulated effect gradually created the wave I've been talking about. That wave, building up over a period of time, that the Kingston Trio surfed to fame on is a better description of what really happened. There can be a first "best seller" album, but that is not necessarily what had the strongest influence on the trend as a whole. I think there was no "most influential album." The influence, a cumulative effect, was already there by the time the Kingston Trio's first album came along. Their album created a blip, but in the long run, not much more than that. The folk revival was already under weigh. What they created was "The Great Folk Scare," which was not the same thing. And Bill, you're right about Pete Seeger. Even though the Weavers had been blackballed and remained essentially inactive until the "Weavers at Carnegie Hall" album, Pete Seeger continued to do concerts at colleges all over the country, sponsored, not by the colleges themselves, but by various student groups (I know, because I know people who were involved in this). Sometimes he didn't get paid very much, but he was out and around doing concerts anyway, "below the radar." During the early and mid '50s, a lot of college students got turned on to folk music in small auditoriums in student organization houses, church basements, a LOT of Quaker meeting houses, and various other venues in and around colleges. This is attested to by enough increasing demand—in the mid '50's—for long-necked banjos like the one Seeger MADE for himself, for Vega to begin making a "Seeger Model" banjo. Bob Gibson, who was performing at the Gate of Horn in Chicago, got his "Seeger Model" (and I bought mine on his recommendation) before the Kingston Trio even formed. By the time Dave Guard bought his "Seeger Model" banjo, there were quite a few of them out and around. Pete Seeger justly earned his title of "Pied Piper of Folk Music." BUT, although he wielded a powerful influence as an individual, it would be foolish to say that he was THE most influential person in the folk revival. That would be to ignore his father, Charles, and Alan Lomax, who go Pete interested in folk music in the first place, when he went to work for Lomax in the Library of Congress Archive of American Folk Music. And then there were all those who went before them: Bishop Percy, Sir Walter Scott, F. J. Child, Cecil Sharp, all those who collected and compiled this material, without whom city kids like the Kingston Trio wouldn't have much folk music to sing. I suppose that mentioning these people makes me some kind of "purist." Sorry about that! (But not very.) The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:03 PM Deli-you can compose your well-worded treatises until the cows come home. I've already ceded you the point that the KT didn't drop from Mt. Olympus, or transport from the Enterprise. But it's all moot. The KT DID indeed start, and nurture the so-called great folk scare in the U.S. Period. No one argues that there were progenitors--but THEY made it hip, popular, sold a bazillion records, did college concerts, and accounted singularily for Martin's rebirth, and Vega Banjo's survival until they sold out. Talk to any true Martin expert and they will tell you the same. As much as you HATE it, MG is correct on this one. Your rhetoric as well reasoned as it is doesn't change the facts Jack. Until the Beatles, they were the most popular sellers, singers, act in show-biz, like it or not. Talk to a Capitol exec. They WERE the cash cow, and brought "folk music" into millions of homes that never heard of Burl, or Woody, or any Lomax. Our old console piece o' furniture didn't have any "Leadbelly" played on it ever-but the KT? You bet pal. And everyone had their clones on their labels. Even DYLAN admits to their influence on him. C'mon--get out yer KT fan club autographed pic, and yer D28 and join the sing along. They WERE the Beatles of the folk era. You talk about US trying to prove a point--so are you and you just won't admit to it. Do you REMEMBER that eon? Were you there? I was....and the KT absolutely RULED it---true folk or not. Arguing that there were others out there who preceded the KT is no point at all. There were others out there before the Beatles too but they werent the Beatles. Who was there before Bill Haley and the Comets? But who is credited with ushering in Rock and Roll? The KT was it. Everyone else who came after owed THEM as being progenitors. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 10 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM Martin, As Lenny Bruce once said when trying to illustrate the value of having courses in the public schools on Sex Education. (Many were saying, then, it was just a road to promiscuity.) --- "Giving students a warning against syphilis is not a direct order for them to go out and contract it!" Some of us who heard the various trios, including the one you seem to be fixated upon, knew that Bob Gibson (who we heard first doing the story songs from history and the roots songs of the Ohio River.) Songs like "Lily Of The West", "John Riley"--and all the broken token songs. "Lost Jimmy Whalen", "Red Iron Ore", "Mattie Groves"---even his updated rendering of "Sweet Betsy From Pike", "Goin' Down To Brownsville--Take That Right Hand Road", "No More Cane On The Brazos"---so many others that were done very much closer to the roots than "3 Jolly Coachmen" and/or "Banua", or their corporate Playboy's Penthouse insipid re-write of "It Takes A Worried Man". It's just a matter of what you liked best. And that's about it. You STOPPED back there---and didn't dig any deeper into the real thing. That's how I see it... Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:33 PM Art Thieme says it. He has a good handle on this because he was there, he's been doing folk music all his life, and knows what he's talking about. Sorry to say it, Anonny Mouse, but you seem to have fallen into the same short-sighted, misleading prejudice that has Martin Gibson trapped in his own delusional universe. You can both quote statistics till hell freezes over, but if it hadn't been for all that preceded the Kingston Trio's first album, you and Martin wouldn't have any statistics to quote, because there would have been no such album. Someone said earlier that a lot of the gung-ho "the Kingston Trio invented folk music" mythology is because the believers in this myth imprinted on the KT the same way baby ducks fresh out of the shell imprint on the first thing they see, such as the old, spavined barnyard dog, and follow the old dog around, convinced that it's its mother. I've run into this before and have argued all these arguments before. The advocates of canonizing the Kingston Trio as the patron saints of ALL folk singers act like their religion is being called into question whenever someone doesn't share their view of history. To make blunt statements like that is simplistic and tends to cut off any investigation of what REALLY happened. Very political, in fact. "Let's not bother to investigate this because we might find out that we're wrong." In his post of 11 Dec 05 - 02:49 PM, Don Firth recommends a couple of very good books that can give you a good, detailed rundown on what the world was really like as far as folk music was concerned. "When We Were Good: The Folk Revival" by Robert Cantwell and "Romancing the Folk: Public Memory and American Roots" by Benjamin Filene. Both of these are good. I would also recommend reading "Follow the Music" by Jac Holzman (head of Elektra Records) and Gavan Daws, and "Postively 4th Street" by David Hajdu. If you're REALLY interesting in where the folk revival came from rather than simply wanting to maintaining a misconception, it would be to your advantage to do some reading. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 10 Jan 06 - 05:59 PM Hmm. Still at it, eh? Deli Lama, I admire your tenacity, but when it comes to enlightening the masses, I tend to think you might be fighting an uphill battle, as in "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!!" Around here, I've pretty much learned to say what I have to say and bug out. Saves a lot of time and aggravation. But then, you missionaries from Shangri-La are dedicated to enlightening the masses and have a lot more patience than I do. Art, if you're still checking in on this, I'm curious; when did the Old Town School of Folk Music first get started in Chicago? I tried to find some history on it on the internet, and so far, other than a few things about the school itself, I can't find out much about it. Even back in the Fifties, I had the impression that it had been around for awhile. Since maybe before Stonehenge was built? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 06 - 09:05 PM Reality Check Albums released in 1958 Around The World - Bing Crosby As Long As There's Music - Eddie Fisher Atomic Basie - Count Basie The Chirping Crickets - The Crickets Come Fly With Me - Frank Sinatra Destination Moon - The Ames Brothers Dream - The Mills Brothers Ella and Billie at Newport - Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday Ella Swings Lightly - Ella Fitzgerald For Teenagers In Love - Teresa Brewer Foreign Affair - Frankie Laine and Michel LeGrand The Frank Sinatra Story - Frank Sinatra Gogi Grant - Welcome To My Heart - Gogi Grant Gondolier - Dalida Greatest Hits - Frankie Laine A Guy In Love - Guy Mitchell Johnny Horton Sings Free And Easy - Johnny Horton Kate Smith Sings Folk Songs - Kate Smith King Creole - Elvis Presley The Kingston Trio - The Kingston Trio Les Gitans - Dalida Milestones - Miles Davis The Mills Brothers In Hi-Fi - The Mills Brothers The Mills Brothers Sing - The Mills Brothers Miss Music - Teresa Brewer Mmmm, The Mills Brothers - The Mills Brothers Music! Music! Music! - Teresa Brewer My Happiness - Connie Francis Oklahoma - Original Soundtrack Only The Lonely - Frank Sinatra Paris Holiday - Bing Crosby Ricky Nelson - Ricky Nelson Rockin' With Kay Starr - Kay Starr Sings the Irving Berlin Songbook - Ella Fitzgerald Smoochin' Time - The Ames Brothers Songs For Swinging Lovers - Frank Sinatra Songs I Wish I Had Sung - Bing Crosby South Pacific - Original Soundtrack Star Dust - Pat Boone Surprise Package - The Crew Cuts Swingin' Down Broadway - Jo Stafford Teresa - Teresa Brewer Teresa Brewer At Christmas Time - Teresa Brewer That Travelin' Two-Beat - Bing Crosby Them There Eyes - Kay Starr This Is Sinatra Volume 2 - Frank Sinatra 'Til Morning - Johnnie Ray Time For Teresa - Teresa Brewer Torchin' - Frankie Laine Who's Sorry Now? - Connie Francis Yes Indeed! - Pat Boone Top hits on record in 1958 "All American Boy" - Bill Parsons "All I Have To Do Is Dream/Claudette" - The Everly Brothers "Alone (Why Must I Be Alone)" - The Southlanders "Because You're Mine" - Mario Lanza "Bird Dog" - Everly Brothers "Blast Off" - The Tyrones "Blue Boy" - Jim Reeves "Breathless" - Jerry Lee Lewis "Broke Down Baby" - The Tyrones "Catch A Falling Star" - Perry Como "A Certain Smile" - Johnny Mathis "Chantilly Lace" - Big Bopper "Chipmunk Song" - The Chipmunks with David Seville "Come Dance With Me" - Frank Sinatra "Come On Let's Go" - Ritchie Valens "Come Prima (Tu me donnes)" - Dalida "Dans le bleu du ciel bleu" - Dalida "The Day The Rains Came" - Jane Morgan "El Diablo" - Frankie Laine "Fever" - Peggy Lee "Gondolier" - Dalida "Great Balls Of Fire" - Jerry Lee Lewis "Guitare et tambourin" - Dalida "Hava Naguila" - Dalida "I am a Mole and I Live in a Hole" - The Southlanders "I Have To Cry" - Frankie Laine "I Wonder Why" - Dion & the Belmonts "I'm Not Just Anybody's Baby" - Mindy Carson "I'm Shook" - The Tyrones "It's All In The Game" - Tommy Edwards "Jailhouse Rock" - Elvis Presley "Johnny B.Goode" - Chuck Berry "Journey's End" - Frankie Laine "Heartbeat" - Buddy Holly "Johnny B. Goode" - Chuck Berry "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine" - Jimmie Rodgers "Le jour où la pluie viendra" - Dalida "Left Right Out Of Your Heart" - Patti Page "Les Gitans" - Dalida "Maybe Baby" - Buddy Holly "Mexican Hat Rock" - Dave Appell/the Applejacks "Milord" - Edith Piaf "Move It" - Cliff Richard "The Purple People Eater" - Sheb Wooley "One Summer Night" - Danleers "Partners" - Jim Reeves "Poor Little Fool" - Ricky Nelson "Rave On" - Buddy Holly "Rawhide" - Frankie Laine "Return To Me (Rittorna A Me)" - Dean Martin "Rock And Roll Is Here To Stay" - Danny & the Juniors "Rocka-Conga" - Dave Appell/the Applejacks "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" - Brenda Lee "Rockin' Robin" - Bobby Day "Scarlet Ribbons" - The Kingston Trio "Short Shorts" - Royal Teens "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" - The Platters "Stupid Cupid" - Connie Francis "Summertime Blues" - Eddie Cochran "Sweet Little Sixteen" - Chuck Berry "Teacher's Pet" - Doris Day "Tequila" - The Champs "Tom Dooley" - The Kingston Trio "Twilight Time" - The Platters "Well All Right" - Buddy Holly "Who's Sorry Now?" - Connie Francis BIG pond -- small frogs. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM More reality check. Five top albums of 1958 1.South Pacific – Soundtrack 2.The Music Man - Original Cast 3.Gigi - Soundtrack 4.Sing Along With Mitch - Mitch Miller 5.Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No. 1 - Van Cliburn "Tom Dooley" (single) made the top of the charts for one week – the week of November 17th. Very big pool. Very small frogs. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: pdq Date: 10 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM In GUEST's posts above, there are only two groups I do not recognise, Dalida and The Southlanders |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:27 PM LOL! Lovely. This may yet become the most influential thread in the upper half of the forum. Way to go. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 11 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM It is always lonely being right (correct) and, also, one of the small minority surrounded by the in-your-face majority. In the end, it's possibly prudent, and in your interest, to just smile and shake your head, sadly, as you head on down the road. If a billion people adhere to a dumb idea, and ten people get it right, the big lie will prevail---but it's still a dumb idea!! That's not very democratic, but, to me, it's THE TRUTH of the matter... Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 11 Jan 06 - 01:22 AM Ponds and frogs and other metaphors-anyone wanna croak? Here's another pond/frog stat for ya: "One month after their fourth album was released the Kingston Trio was claiming 4 out of the 8 firsts on the national album sales charts..." Quote from an article from the folk scare era...now thats some kinda influence wouldn't ya say? Any other folkies have a stat like that? 4 out of the top 8's a pretty small pond with some BIG frogs. Ribbit. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:53 PM And the source of that quote is.......? Not just "an article," please. Specific would be nice. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM Never mind. I found it. It's on the Kingston Trio's website. (Yawn) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:22 PM Sorry-lost the link amid others late last nite-however I was Googling Billboard top selling albums in 58 & 59-may have come from an RIAA link also-however, basically same info in this quote from this link, but list 4 in the top 10...same time frame: http://www.answers.com/topic/the-kingston-trio Its a well known fact however-certainly not something one would make up. Read all about it pond/frog lovers. LOL |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:27 PM Quote GUEST: "Never mind. I found it. It's on the Kingston Trio's website.(Yawn)" Wasnt at any KT website-so if you found it there you know its true. "YAWN"-then why didja ask? The link I pasted in above isn't a KT website-what website YOU talkin' about? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 11 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM I found it also (googled with "Advanced Search"). Basically good article in praise of the Kingston Trio. Contains the usual puff-job that PR types write. Naturally. Liner notes. HERE. I would need some verification of anything I read off of some recording artist's liner notes. Besides, that just reiterates what's already been said. Nobody has denied that they had a hit album. Maybe a couple of hit albums. Nor has anybody denied that they did wield a fair amount of influence. But the question is, just how influential were they in relation to the folk revival? The MOST INFLUENTIAL album? For example, in the UK, I tend to think that their influence was minimal. Perhaps some of our British friends could chime in on this. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:08 PM Deli-that link you put up was a new one on me-not where the 4 of top 8 albums quote came from-but yer right-its obviously a fan oriented thing. Different link than the one I posted a bit ago for the guy who wants "proof"--I spose you could check RIAA stats too but I aint quite that compulsive. Point was all those songs listed for '58 above and MY point was 4 albums at once in the Billboard top 10 at once. To me thats influence more than sales and it all started with that first red album and swept the country and started the folk music era here which the progenitors didn't do. As for the UK I have no idea who was big there or if they had a folk boom like in the U.S. Lonnie Donnegan? Buskers? Dunno. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Bill t' bodger Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:33 PM I think you are right about KTs influence in te UK I was not born until 64 so do not know for sure, I was influenced by my Dads music and he had been sateside a lot between 57 and 61 and listened to a lot of American music as he preferred ballads, not the more frivolous songs in the rock n roll and pop at that time. I know he had access to Pete Seeger and other singers who were blacklisted in the States because he travelled all over the atlantic coasts. I have never said that the Kingston Trio were not important, just that others influenced them and a lot of singers since, Bruce Springsteen cites Woody Guthrie as an influence, as do a lot of other Rock/folk singer/songwriters, as he was around a long time before KT maybe a few of you should widen your views |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 11 Jan 06 - 09:53 PM Anonny, I pulled up google, went to "Advanced Search," and pasted "One month after their fourth album was released the Kingston Trio was claiming 4 out of the 8 firsts on the national album sales charts" into the "exact phrase" box (after highlighting it and copying it from your post—a little trick I figured out), and that's where it took me. The sentence you quote is fairly well along in the article, but it's there. Since I had it in my buffer, I pasted it to the "Edit > Find" box and there it was. So it IS there. Where did YOU find it? The Deli Lama (Duty calls. Back tomorrow) |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:00 PM I'm not sure when the Gate of Horn opened, but it was going in the mid-50s. The radio program "The Midnight Special" started in 1953. The Old Town School of Folk Music started in 1957. These were symptoms of the interest in folk music that had been developing slowly over a number of decades, but in the 50s, the wave was beginning to crest. There were folksingers singing in front of audiences in coffeehouses and clubs all over the country in the 50s. The fact that the Kingston Trio's first album sold well was a RESULT, not the cause, of the folk music revival in the United States. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 11 Jan 06 - 10:41 PM Hey Deli--wish I could find it again...I didn't read the page all the way you linked since as soon as I saw it I knew it wasn't the one I got the quote from since mine didn't have a colored picture or print like that. All I remember is that there was some green "headers" for topics and smaller black print. My guess is that its just out there and whoever wrote up that fan page used it too. I did try re Googling but couldn't find it again-but it obviously is the same quote. Besides, the other link I DID post mentioned 4 out of 10. Youre just a better searcher than me! Regardless I believe fan page or not, or wherever, it is true about the 4 albums at once in Billboards top 10 or 8 or whatever (I always thought they did those things in 10's or 100's). My point stays the same anyway-10 top albums (or 8) is a small pond and 4 albums in it is a big FROG. Again-dont see what diff it makes where it came from exactly because Billboard could verify it (if I could figger a way to do that without buying their $%#^ books they sell by the year or something). As to the Gate of Horn and the 50's coffee houses I wasn't around-but assuming folk music was cresting the KT hit the top of the wave at the right time and like any wave, it broke and hit the shore and spilled into a million households, guitar shops, Martin guitars which you couldn't find a NEW D28 in most shops in the early 60's 'cause they were backordered out the whazoo because of GUESS WHO...and folks that might've been playing coffee houses were now able to play college auds and big concert venues. Plus like someone said, before 57-58 who had much of any folk groups on record labels? A few...then there was an innundation--like that Fernwood Trio (and there was a Princeton Trio too--real cooool guys) and Bros 4, Limeliters, Chad Mitchell, Journeymen, PP and M, Highwaymen, New Christy Minstrels -then Dylan and Baez, Paxton, Anderson, and it all started with that RED KT album. BTW 57-2007-next year'll be 50 years! Man were all gettin' OLD eh Deli (or are you a youn'un?). I fess up-I was a FAN...I loved those guys and I aped 'em, and did their stuff, and picked up a guitar and banjo because of them and thats lasted a lifetime so far, won me a lotta friends (probably drove some others nuts), got me backstage to more than a few concerts of other acts (not just folk either) because of music connections, and made a geeky kinda guy survive high school and church youth groups and camp and thought of as "cool" 'cause I had some chops, and could play with the best of them back when (can't these days)-the music seemed simpler then and I was a natural harmonizer so thats why I keep posting on this thread even though I know there were lotsa folks who hated the music, KT, or whatever. Me? They helped me bloom where I was planted and I got to talk to Bob Shane more than a coupla times in my life and I told him that--and he was real gracious about it-and said lots of people tell similar stories. But regardless of all this personal crap I DO believe that first album of theirs deserves "most influencial folk album." |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:03 AM I was at the Gate Of Horn for what was happening in the late 1950s, and it was mesmerizing. In a nutshell, back then, Bob Gibson was the sole reason for the club's success. After opening it's doors, the place showed no signs at all of being the Mecca of folkiedom it would become. Bob was a young and fresh guy with a Vega long-neck 5-string banjo. Didn't do any songs with a guitar until Matty Groves. And his arrangement was used, later, by Joan Baez. Bob's arrangements were used by Chad Mitchell's group, The Limelighters and at least 50 other stripedy shirt trios and quartets. A barefoot Joan Baez opened for Gibson at the gate---and that voice simply amazed us. Then Bob Gibson brought her up on stage to sing a couple of songs with him at the Newport Folk Festival. She took off from there... The "Gate Of Horn", I've been told, was the gate travelers had to pass through on the way to having their dreams come true! Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:38 PM Jeez, Art, I wish it were possible for us to get together, drink a few beers, and swap some stories. I met Bob Gibson in 1958. I had a friend named Patti McLaughlin who had graduated from the U. of Washington in the early Fifties, then went for an advanced degree at Northwestern. While she was here in Seattle, she was a guitar student of mine. She hung out at the Gate of Horn a lot, met Bob Gibson, swapped songs with him, and even sent me a tape of her singing a bunch of songs she'd learned from him. I had learned Mattie Groves from a John Jacob Niles recording back in about 1953 (didn't sing it quite the way Niles did, though!) and Patti learned it from me. When I heard Gibson's recording of it, I thought, "AHA! I know where that came from!" Maybe that's not the way it really happened, but all things considered, it looked fairly likely. Anyway, Patti returned to Seattle, and in 1958, she, Walt Robertson, a couple of other people, and I made preliminary arrangements for a concert and a couple of other gigs for Gibson here in Seattle. Patti contacted Gibson and he was game. Among other things, he had a brother named Jim who lived here in Seattle. Jim, a paramedic, and I met often at the Blue Moon tavern where we consumed many a schooner. I didn't even occur to me that he was Bob Gibson's brother, even though he'd mentioned that he had a brother living back east who was into folk music. I had never made the connection, even though the last names were the same and they looked a lot alike. Rather dim of me! Gibson brought Dick Rosmini with him, and his concert in the Eagleson Hall auditorium was jam-packed. They were here for two weeks, staying at Walt Robertson's houseboat down on Lake Union. Gibson, Rosmini, Walt, Patti, and I, along with several other people, got together several times while they were here for song-swapping and general babble-festing. I learned a bunch of guitar licks from Dick Rosmini (man, that sucker could play!!). Then in 1959, Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I ran into Gibson in the Bay Area. We were sitting in the "No Name Tavern" in Sausalito when in he walked, spotted us, and came over (actually, he knew Patti was in the area, looked her up, and she told him where he could probably find us). He was in the area to write arrangements for the Smothers Brothers (who were just starting out at the Purple Onion) and help them get their act together. He had just recently been to the Newport Folk Festival, and he said that an outrageously fantastic girl singer had been there and that we'd be hearing a lot about her very soon. Guess who that turned out to be!! Anyway, Bob Gibson was a FORCE. And there were a number of FORCES like that around the country. There's no doubt that the Kingston Trio was a force also, but I do have to agree that their success was more a result than a cause of the folk revival in the U. S. They were more a pop-music phenomenon than a folk music influence, because due to their slicked-up arrangements, frat-boy irreverence, apparent eagerness to use a song as a vehicle for a joke rather than to present it seriously, and their look-alike shirts, most folk singers (vast hordes of them by the late Fifties) tended to regard them as "folk-lite." We could argue this 'til hell freezes over and still reach no conclusion that would satisfy everyone's preferences and prejudices. Anyone who knows me or has heard me sing very much could hardly characterize me as a "purist," but if my regarding the KT as "folk-lite" makes me a "purist" and a "snob," then fine and dandy. So sue me! I reiterated my earlier recommendation that those who didn't get into folk music until the Kingston Trio came along should read a bit and find out what went before and where it really all came from. Then, they might not be quite so adamant. If you were to read only one of the books I recommended (and others have seconded my recommendations), I would suggest Romancing The Folk : Public Memory and American Roots by Benjamin Filene. Among other things, lots of pictures. In any case, why don't we all just stop quibbling and go out and make some music, okay? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:35 PM I want to remind posters above, especially the Guest above with his result theory, that this thread is about the Most Influential album. as far as a folk movement goes, as Guest spoke of prior to the KT first album, yes there was one, but it was limited to mostly large urban areas. When the folk movement began or was relevant does not equal what album was the most influential. It is just as usual, purists not giving credit to where credit is due for the whole genre of folk music being established. Again, The Kingston Trio won a grammy for best country/western song with Ttom Dooley, because there wasn't much if any of a folk music category, at least as far as recorded music was concerned as a whole. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:46 PM "Folk-lite" Very apt. I like that! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:01 PM Martin Gibson, you (and a few others) are confusing "most influential" with "most sales." Those are two entirely different animals. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM And if you scan the "reality check" lists I posted above, you might notice that of the best selling albums of 1958, Teresa Brewer had a whopping 6,And once again, take a look at the list of the 5 top selling albums of 1958. 1.South Pacific – SoundtrackThe Kingston Trio was right up there with all the rest of the single sellers, including Alvin and the Chipmunks. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:03 PM Sales=influence, Guest Most sales ratios out to most people heard to most people influenced. Numbers speak volumes, guest. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:11 PM Question, Martin. If sales=influence, why wasn't everyone trying to sing like Teresa Brewer and Frank Sinatra? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM Give it up "GUEST." We're talking about the folk era...and lots of people DID try (and fail) to sing like Frank Sinatra-Jack Jones, Vic Damone, heck-Harry Connick. How many years did Teresa Brewer last? Name three hits or million plus selling albums she EVER had. 4 out of 8 albums on Billboard? Dont think so. Rescue Martin guitars? Nope? Fill coffee houses, colleges, venues with copycats? Nope. Whaddya got against the KT? Or is it who's posting on their behalf? Me? MG? Go visit the Martin museum and see whose pix are there. It ain't Peter Paul and Mary, or Dylan, or Bob Gibson or Woody-and I love Woody. Sales IS influence--esp long term. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM Leapin' lizards, there, Anonny! You sound even more rabid than Martin Gibson. You're sure you're NOT Martin Gibson? Why does it matter so much to you two guys? Perhaps the Deli Lama is right. Is this a matter of having your religious beliefs attacked? Will questioning the importance of the Kingston Trio in the Grand Scheme of the Universe set off Armageddon? Film at eleven. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:04 PM The Martin website claims the Kingston Trio "single handedly" set off the folk music boom. Oh, c'mon!! Don't tell me you seriously believe that! Like a few people have said, read a book. Educate yourseves! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:05 PM Sales can, more often than not = the herd instincts of the gullible poorly enlightened. After first exposure, some swept the scum of the present off the top of the pond and dove into the depths of history to find the artifacts of musical lore lurking there. Art |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM Amen to that, Art. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:26 PM Well fellas (or gals) this is gettin' to be like bashin the ol' head against a brick wall-it feels so good when ya stop. No doubt some of you know from yer books and histories whatcha know. Pointless to keep this little argument/debate going. I'm not changing yer minds-and you're not changing mine. Plenty of salient points made from all sides; I made mine-you made yours. I know what I know, and observed and lived through it here stateside. That first Trio album deserves most influencial--THEY may have not been the be-all, end-all of folk music commercial or otherwise--but that album started a phenomenon, and who came before whom or whatever is all well and good, but they didn't have THE ALBUM. Or the albums that followed. So, I'm takin' my leave of this now as it's been beat into the dirt plenty enough and you regulars and "GUESTS" can write what ya want. But I did enjoy all the pots that got stirred, learned a few things, got some nice references, and did some reading. Maybe I'll go off and wail hang down your head, Tom Dooley on my front porch, or hoist one to Bob, Nick and Dave. Catch you on another thread I'm sure. Now-don't go taking this as some kind of surrender, 'cause it isn't. Just that enuf's enuf-and we probably hit that 150 posts or so ago. LOL!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Don Firth Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:51 PM Okay, Anonny, but do get a copy of Romancing The Folk by Benjamin Filene and give it a read. I think you'll find it both interesting and informative. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:04 PM Don, I will look for that book too!! I have never heard of it before. Mr. or Ms A. Mouse, It is interesting. We'll agree to disagree. If I spounded feistier than I ahoulkd've, I am sorry. It's been an excruciatingly frustrating couple of days dealing with Public Aid's transport permissions bureaurocracy. Bottom line: Carol did not get to a badly needed treatment apointment this morning. I was blowing off real anger---and steam. A needed venting from ol' Art. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Tourindot Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 PM What is it you're saying monseur? Merde alors c'est le trois que? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 15 Jan 06 - 01:46 PM What the hell are you raving about, Martin Gibson? You won't read a book because you figure only about a dozen others have read it, therefore it isn't worth reading? Well, I don't think the Encyclopedia Britannica has sold all that many copies compared to those such as you who read a lot of porn, but it contains a lot more valuable information. Actually, I'm re-reading "Romancing the Folk" now and it's absolutely fascinating. Lot's of stuff that anyone with a serious interest in American folk music really ought to know. Oh, but learning something would make you an elitist, a snob, and a purist, not to mention a dope-smoking hippy and probably a liberal as well. You have to be careful about taking a chance on learning something you don't already know. You never can tell how new information (new to you) might corrupt you. For God's sake, don't take a chance! Okay, so you don't think the book sold very many copies (but you don't KNOW that) and you're convinced that the Kingston Trio really did invent folk music in the basement of their frat house because of all the albums they sold. You're really into numbers, aren't you? So are lemmings. The Deli Lama |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse Date: 15 Jan 06 - 03:44 PM Whoo-wee. Here we go again. Buncha accusations flyin' on both sides-no penalty no foul (watchin' the Steelers/Indy game-more exciting). FWIW I believe Martin guitars too. Already made my finale on this one. Red Album-KT-most influencial. Take it to the bank. Don't care about the Brittanica or the book(s) right now. KT wins in OT. Super Bowl of folk on 2/6. Tom Dooley wins by 21 points. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,Treefolker Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:14 PM May I suggest the "KNob Lick Upper 10000" for their debut album of big hits? |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: Once Famous Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:27 PM Deli Lama, you are really Dolly Lame. |
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Subject: RE: Most Influential Album? From: GUEST,The Deli Lama Date: 16 Jan 06 - 09:28 PM Well, well, well, Fartin' Gibbon strikes again with another sally of wit. You do like to play with names a lot, don't you? Kind of "Lame" brained, actually. It's the sort of thing eighth graders do a lot. Jeez, man, get a clue! The Deli Lama
-Joe Offer- |
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