BS: Thoughts About Suicide

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

It makes one furiously to think, doesn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

I should in fairness say that those I work with are usually younger veterans who suffer from various post-combat reactions,usually depression that lead to alcohol and drug abuse. They are screaming instead their own heads for help or some way out and unfortunately they all too often find an exit.

I am not talking about those facing physical problems, and no, I do not think suicide is a 'weakness' no matter who does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:42 AM

Wasn't it Dr Johnson who said that imminence of death is a salutary experience as it concentrates the mind so?

I have no opinion based contribution to this thread but have been involved in the legal mess that followed an assisted suicide by a GP, both whilst the police were seeing if CPS felt there was a case to answer and later in the GMC fitness to practice hearing. (UK.)

This led to being asked to sit on a think tank following attempts by MPs to bring this issue up. Michael's experience, being one that became public, was a case we used to look at the present legal, possible future legal and more importantly, support infrastructure for people in their situation and resolve. There are of course others, but his stuck in my mind as I knew of his name if nothing else.

The one area we did manage to tighten though was the thorny issue of DNACPR (do not resuscitate.) In that respect, the wishes of someone who wishes to die are legally respected by healthcare professionals, and the latest prescription form has far more safeguards to consider than before.

I went into such debate with an open mind and left it having formed no overall view to support or deny encouragement of suicide. I just know that it is a one way decision and not everybody has full mental capacity when making that decision, which means you have to ensure safeguards for those people don't fetter the wishes of people making decisions by a more rational thought process.

In terms of suicide overall, there is a hangover from superstitious times regarding the legality and therefore social stigma, especially for those left behind. So whilst I cannot form a view concerning something I don't understand, I would certainly encourage debate and removing the social taboos surrounding it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:02 AM

This is a topic in which I have, as some will know, some knowledge & experience. Seven years ago my beloved first wife committed suicide as a result of degenerative illness which she determined, IMO rationally and courageously, had caused her to degenerate as far as she found tolerable. I went public about this, & had my Warholian 15 minutes as result. If interested, google ·grosvenor myer suicide· for various press letters, reports, feature, press & tv interviews &c.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:52 PM

I gather that she just didn't want to do the rehab and the pain and screw it, if that was where she was, she wasn't going to be there. I can't argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:21 PM

They have a FB page. They do good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:45 PM

An amazing thread... I tend to read suddenly refreshed threads as if I had never seen them, and generally do not skip to the end, as I want to get a feeling for the entire flow of the discussion.

There are obviously relevant links between meditating on suicide itself ....and its causes & effects on others.... and ideas about death itself and what might come 'after'.
    Since I participated in this thread 9 years ago, I have personally known 2 people who have chosen their own time to die.... both had incurable medical problems, and I was relieved that they were able to choose. The elderly woman Mrrzy knew evidently still had her senses and options working, and though the death of any good person is a sadness, I have felt for many years that their opinion should be the deciding one about when.
   I do, of course, hope that some intervention can be found for those who are merely depressed in some way. All too many could be helped if they would only ask......

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:38 PM

As someone who volunteers to work with people who might well be "on the edge," I wonder why she felt that there was no one for her to turn to, to talk with.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 09:21 PM

At "almost 100 years old" I can almost understand why she took her own life. She must have seen friend after friend depart this life until she had few or no peers left, and may have decided she just wouldn't put up with it any longer.

My father was 93 when he died and he often mentioned that there is no one left who had known him all his life.

He was fortunate though, at age 89 he remarried, to a 76 year old woman and his last four years were happy ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 08:30 PM

Oops that was me again, I keep forgetting I have no cookies at work. Yes, her kids are grown and grandparents. Still.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 06:21 PM

I have no idea, but keep in mind her children are likely in their 70s or 80s.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 05:55 PM

An old acquaintance died this morning - very old, would have been 100 in a few weeks - I hadn't heard, but she had fallen last week, so I guessed she had "took sick" in complications from the fall, and was saddened; but now I've found out she actually committed suicide, and suddenly feel much better. Now I am wondering if that is an appropriate reaction... nobody close to me has killed themselves, is this worse or better for the adult children, I wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: ranger1
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:17 AM

The winter after I graduated from college I was living with my grandparents. One morning, my grandmother and I found my grandfather dead in her sewing room. He'd slit his wrists with the bread knife the night before, after I had gone to bed. It took me a long time to forgive him for what he'd done, and the only reason I think I came to terms with it was because he was terminally ill and he'd been on Prednisone, which may cause depression in some people (a little fact that the doctor failed to mention, by the way). He never left us a note, either. I can understand why he did it, but I don't have to like it or the method he used.

Spiritually how it all fits in, I haven't quite figured out yet. I like to think that we get a chance at a do-over until we get it right, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:12 AM

PS - re guns and suicide - I remember that young man sitting at my kitchen table a week before he died, having a beer with my husband. It was late, and my husband and I were arguing about guns for the umpteenth time. Hubby had been planning to buy one for over a year, I was too afraid to allow one around my kids or in my home.

We had no good reason for owning a gun imo - we weren't hunters or farmers or cops after all. In fact, the only reason Hubby'd ever come up with for buying a gun was "for protection against people with homicidal tendencies". And here I'd always insisted that "protection against people with homicidal tendencies" was the best reason ever NOT to allow a gun in the house!

So on and on it went, me insisting over and over again that violence, injury and death were a LOT more likely to happen if there was a gun lying around, and hubby ignoring or belittling my concerns.

But the point of this story is, that young neighbour actually agreed with me that night! Yes, violence is much more likely with a gun in the house, he said. In fact, he was the only one of my husband's friends who had ever "taken my side" about guns! I was so surprised! Even thanked him, quietly, for his support before he left that night.

The day he died he'd been at my door early in the morning, looking for Hubby, who wasn't there. He sat down at the table for a couple minutes, looking like he wanted something else - maybe just to talk? But I was sick myself that day, and my baby twins had had the flu for a week -- I didn't have the time or the energy that day to even make him a coffee, told him he'd best leave if he didn't want to get the flu too.

When I found out what he'd done later that day, I was just wracked with guilt. Oh, if I'd only spent a bit of time with him, sick as a dog or not, I might have been able to help! After what he'd said about guns just a few days before, I might have been able to talk some sense into him. :-(

But eventually, I just had to let all that guilt go. That guilt wasn't helping anyone - him, his family, or myself. Unfortunately, we cannot always be our brother's keeper.   :-(

Thanks for listening,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:47 AM

I can see now that it was during those periods in my life when I was most self-absorbed, so caught up in my own perceived problems and grievances that I could barely see past the end of my own nose that I was also most depressed, most pre-occupied with the ifs and hows and whens of ending it all.   And I agree with Divis - suicide is ultimately a selfish act. It's an act of violence not only against oneself, but against everyone who cared about the person. And often it is carried out with the specific intention of damaging those left behind as much as possible.

Who did my heart go out to more -- the young man who shot himself right in front of his girlfriend, or his girlfriend, his mother, father and siblings? Sorry bud -- that young man was dead of his own volition. None of my "caring" or "empathy" would have brought him back. Sure, I grieved for him. In fact I learned a LOT from him (most of which I never really wanted to know) -- but my sympathy and empathy was better spent on those who loved him, the ones his violence had wounded so badly. In effect, he sentenced them all to a lifetime of pain and grief, just as he'd intended.

According to StatsCan, suicide is the second highest cause of death among Canadian males under 30, and aboriginal people are many times more likely to take their own lives than any other group. Yes, there's much that can and is being done to prevent suicide, to improve living conditions and general health of these and other "at risk" populations.

But after the fact? Energy and empathy is much better spent helping the living, imo.

Azizi, thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:45 AM

Okay-Freudian's [mother's ?] slip is showing in the last line of my last post...

What I meant to write was:

"I repeat what I've said before here-it's my hope that threads like this and Mudcat's "Depression/Anxiety" thread whose link I posted in my first comment in this thread help to lessen other's pain as they have helped me to lessen my own pain."

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:39 AM

Paul, regardless of whether they are spiritually aware or not, so many of the experiences that people have shared in this thread demonstrate that people cared for {meaning loved, and still love} and tried to provide emotional support {and other types of support} to another person who took his or her life anyway.

People may respond to another person's cries for help, but the person crying may not respond to others' offers of help. Or {and this may be even more difficult}the person who succeeds in committing suicide may not have even presented to those close to him or her {or to the rest of the world} that he or she was that depressed or was even any more depressed than folks who do not try to or who do not succeed in committing suicide}.

To call people who are left behind selfish and self-asborbed because they {we} admit our pain, is to add to our pain.

I repeat what I've said before here-it's my hope that threads like this and Mudcat's "Depression/Anxiety" thread whose link I posted in my pain or others' pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:17 AM

You selfish lot! Some bugger is unhappy enough to kill themselves, and all you can think of is "Why did they make ME feel so unhappy?"

All this empathy- with yourselves. You really like to set yourselves up as the spiritually aware, caring, loving ones, but can't apply it to someone who needed it. It's just another cover for self- absorption.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:48 PM

I just found out that there are support groups for people who have had a loved one commit suicide. See this excerpt from one of those sites:

"From within the circle, we talk about the past, I hear cries for fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters and friendships we thought would last.

And we ache for the arms of a loved one of a time too short lived and of questions left more piercing than a knife. Oh, the questions come hauntingly, pressing your mind, when a loved one takes their own life.

In the Circle I dare reach out my hand.
In the Circle help me see there's a plan for me.

And my story becomes yours as we struggle through the pain.
In the Circle, we remember their names. We have daydreams of the future about how we thought it might be, with regrets of conversations that might have been the key.

We are angry and confused as we struggle for our breath. Our hearts cry out in anger in what has been labeled a senseless death.

We have good days and bad days, and without a trace, in the circle, tears and smiles meet as we gather strength together.
Sons and daughters, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters and friendships felt deep in our souls, memories and moments left clinging to us, and questions of how to let go."

-snip-

Source: Survivors of Suicide

That site also has a hyperlink for persons who are considering suicide.

I sincerely hope that resources such as that site are helpful.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM

I would tend to believe in reincarnation and that suicide is not an escape - the pain or problems will have to be dealt with in this life or another. But the horror of what the suicide of a friend or loved one does to the living is incalculable. Today at work a colleage learned that a relative had committed suicide. He was found dead in a fetal position in the bathtub, by his 19 year old daughter. I can't stop thinking about that poor girl, what she must be feeling, the guilt, the horror, the self doubt. You can bet that scene of walking in and finding her father dead in the bathtub will haunt her Christmas seasons for the rest of her life.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Maryrrf
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM

I would tend to believe in reincarnation and that suicide is not an escape - the pain or problems will have to be dealt with in this life or another. But the horror of what the suicide of a friend or loved one does to the living is incalculable. Today at work a colleage learned that a relative had committed suicide. He was found dead in a fetal position in the bathtub, by his 19 year old daughter. I can't stop thinking about that poor girl, what she must be feeling, the guilt, the horror, the self doubt. You can bet that scene of walking in and finding her father dead in the bathtub will haunt her Christmas seasons for the rest of her life.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,member staying anon
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:14 PM

Divis Sweeney said that those who threatened did not do it.
O yes they do, a relative of mine threatened for over 4 months before suicide came,in the back of car with connection to exhaust pipe.
Not very nice for those of us left to pick up the pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

PS   I was assuming that suicide involves a tortured mind and emotions, whether the person is an atheist or an infantile believer in fairy tales.

Perhaps I am wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:32 PM

Hmm, just to clarify --- I meant "droplets of dirty oil" as a metaphor for the "disembodied and tortured mind and emotions" of suicide cases, and certainly not for atheists themselves or atheism in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:07 PM

daylia, after you posted your smiley in response to freda U I have hopes that you posted with a grin the following: "Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level.   Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness." .

Were I an atheist, I'd be snarling.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:06 PM

Having worked in mental health for the past twenty six years and dealt with more cases than I care to recall, it is a selfish act. Escape your own problems and leave others to deal with them. I still meet family of those who took their own lives and still they ask themselves questions, could I have done more ? Why did they not talk to me ? One thing I did find though, all of those who did it, never gave us warning. Those who threaten it rarely do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:02 PM

GUEST, I'd call you a vegetable, but vegetables do have some virtue.

Virtue? You live in a strange world you make your own

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:57 PM

We are all Meat Puppetmasters; it is only when we forget that we become meat puppets, all unaware of how the strings are pulled. It is a bit like going to see a movie that you, yourself, wrote and produced, but somehow ending up stuck on the screen.

:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:25 PM

Right on, Amos. And it fits right in with a correction I need to make about the lyrics I posted; Kurt Cobain did not write "Lake of Fire" - it's by the "Meat Puppets", and Nirvana covered it.

"THe Meat Puppets". How very uplifting.   ;-)

Kinda reminds me of the electorate on their way to the polls ....

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:57 PM

Forbes has forwarded a report on the connection between happy mind-sets and success in making positive things occur in life..

While it is usual to believe that having good fortune makes one happy, turns out the reverse is also true, something any competent metapsychologist knows, but which is now the conclusion of a great deal of scientific evidence.

The relationship to the thread is self-evident: if you start yourself smiling, you will rapidly discover things worth smiling about.

And the world will agree with you.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Janie
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:11 AM

Looks like this has turned into thoughts on life (or not) after death.

Mystery...mystery....Thats what.

We just don't know. I agree with Carol. We are all operating on belief when it comes to death. But whatever happens in death happens.

I am comfortable with mystery.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM

But what if Daddy doesn't need to be told diddley-squat? What if Daddy Knows It All Already? Besides, what if we ARE Daddy -- each and every one??

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:22 AM

I think *daylia* has let it slip there. The REAL reason you want to believe in a god is not so much to get spiritual survival yourself, but to get revenge on others who have crossed you in life- like Lazarus seeing Dives fry in hell. So all this talk about higher spirituality and so on simply boils down to "I'll tell Daddy and he'll spank you".

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:18 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM

"Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level.   Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness."

what a lot of twaddle.


God is an athiest.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:55 AM

PS -- on 2nd thought, maybe it's just like Hurt said after all ..

"Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the Lake of Fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July

I knew a lady who came from Duluth
She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth
She went to her grave just a little too soon
And she flew away howling on the yellow moon

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the Lake of Fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July

Now the people cry and the people moan
And they look for a dry place to call their home
And try to find some place to rest their bones
While the angels and the devils try to make them their own

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the Lake of Fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July"

-- "Lake of Fire", Nirvana

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:44 AM

Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level.   Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness.

What this might feel like is anyone's guess. So if you're the type that needs everything planned out and accounted for in advance, I suggest you're better off where you are right now. Especially if you're over 35 - do you really want to take the chance of Smelling Like Teen Spirit forever?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:27 AM

Atheists? As someone said, we don't have a special word for people who don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, so why a special word for people who don't swallow some other fairy tale?

But as for methods, it must be time to quote one of my favourite poets:

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:56 PM

S'cuse me! That last post of mine was to Guest, not Guest, Joe F. Just plain Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM

Don't be silly, Joe F. You can't put yourself "above" something you don't think even exists!

I don't regard atheists as people who are putting themselves above God. I just regard them as people who don't believe there's anything else except physical life, and that consciousness ends at death. Fine. I don't care. If you like to believe that, it's perfectly all right. If there is an afterlife, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. If there isn't, you'll never know if you were "right". LOL!

In my case, if there is...I'll be happy to see it. If there isn't, I'll never know I was wrong. Sounds like a good deal to me.

And who is asking you for an apology? Not me. Not God. There's no reason for you to apologize to anyone. You are NOT required to believe as others believe. We live in a free Universe, where belief is the business of the believer and of no one else whatsoever. That's my belief.

As for vanity...every human ego (whether atheist or religious by nature) is the victim of its own vanity, unless it has achieved true selflessness and complete love for all people and other beings. How many have done that? A handful. You may have heard their names, you may not have. Some became saints and prophets, great teachers, and founders of great religions and philosophies. Others lived quietly, unnoticed, and died unknown to the masses of humanity around them. Vanity is like sweat and blood. It's everywhere. It is the common condition of man.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM

Any room for us atheists in this thread? It has been pointed out to me that as an atheist I have put myself above God through my pride and vanity. On the contrary, I consider that people who believe in God(s) and reincarnation and heaven and all the other "afterlife" stuff are victims of their own vanity and cannot accept the simple fact that human existence is a single event ending conclusively at death. I am over 60 and still in reasonable health so I have no reason to consider suicide at this stage. Nevertheless, if mother nature or lady luck should decide to deal me a bad hand I would be ready to take the ultimate initiative with complete disregard for the opinions of lawyers, politicians and clergy. As for my family I would not wish to be a burden on them and I have asked them to ensure that I do not obtain any medical attention which would prolong my misery in some half-alive existence. I consider this a practical outlook and make no apologies to anyone for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM

I have read that a charitable form favo(u)red by British coroners in reporting inquests on suicides is "While the balance of his/her mind was temporarily disturbed". That clause might, of course, be prefixed pertinently to any other sentence in the person's biography. While the balance of my mind is temporarily disturbed, I am about to post this reflection.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Had enough? Drop dead. :||

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:06 AM

Daylia, I made a rather thorough study of ways to do yourself in, effectively and rather painlessly. Pills and alcohol are only two CNS depressants; you could use others. I myself couldn't use carbon monoxide as I would get a VIOLENT headache -- I'm a human CO detector, dating back to a wonderful old car my mother had that was rear-ended by a cop and the exhaust damaged (we couldn't afford to fix it, so we drove with the windows open year-round).

I'll stop with this -- the subject is depressing and gruesome to me. It's one of the problems with knowing a lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM

Oops, forgot my personal favourite:

"Give me a Leonard Cohen afterworld
So I can sigh eternally"

-- Kurt Cobain (from "Pennyroyal Tea")

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:00 AM

And a few inspirational words from one of my kid's longtime musical idols, Mr. Hurt CoPain

"Don't expect me to cry for all the reasons you had to die.

If you die you're completely happy and your soul somewhere lives on. I'm not afraid of dying. Total peace after death, becoming someone else is the best hope I've got.

Though the sun is gone, I have a light."

-- Kurt Cobain

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:29 AM

Gee, Rapaire, those are quite the helpful suggestions! CO² narcosis aided by a plastic bag? Didn't occur to me. Duh. I was deploring the fact I had no garage to sit in with the engine running instead.    :-/

The alcohol/sleeping pills thing probably wouldn't have worked though. I'd have had to see a doctor to get the pills, and I was afraid to go. He/she would have asked way too many questions, maybe even thrown me in the loonie bin (a fate worse than death, in my book). Plus, my stomach usually rejects alcohol, quickly and violently, whether I want it to or not. Hmmm.

Little Hawk is right. This IS damn depressing. Enough already! So to lighten things up a bit, I offer you all The Suicide Guide

Found it yesterday. Seems to be geared toward the under-25 set (statistically, the age group most likely to suicide). It's well-informed, non-judgmental and witty too. For example, here's the author's thoughts on what awaits a person in the afterlife post-suicide (he gives both religious and atheistic versions):

His [Dante's] picture of Hell is about what you'd expect, in that there are different levels of hellness depending on what kind of an asshole you were. If you're surprised that suicides wind up in Hell at all, you have to understand that the bitch about suicide is that under the Christian scheme, it qualifies as murder. Dante's Hell has the suicide cases living in a suburb of murdererville.

This may sound unfair, but remember that murder isn't a horrible crime because of what it does to the murdered. That person is gone, what do they care? No, the crime is against the murdered person's Mom and brother and sister and best friend and all their coworkers and the people he or she owed money to. All of the people who depended on that person or would have depended on them in the future had they been allowed to live, all of the people who will feel the crushing waves of misery and loneliness due to their abrupt absence, they're the victims.

And since suicide creates the same real and emotional devastation as homocide, the two are treated as the same crime. I know, it sucks. But remember you're not being punished for what you did to yourself, but what you did to those around you when you pulled the trigger. That's the thing, suicide has a way of only hurting the people who liked you. The people who hated you will forget your name in a month and, in fact, the evil bastards who tormented you and drove you to this will actually be a little happier with you gone.

Suicide is like a bunch of your friends saving up money to buy you a car and then you taking the car and running them over with it.

So be prepared. If whatever afterlife is coming involves justice of some kind, you'll still have to answer for the fact that you ended this life by emotionally devastating all of the people who have helped you up until now, while simultaneously having bailed out on all of the people you were supposed to have helped in your remaining decades of life. From the friend who would have needed you to talk them through a tough time a month from now to the sweet girl who you were supposed to marry six years from now, all will be waiting to kick your ass in the afterworld...

Honestly, if I knew a teen struggling in this manner I'd try to get them to read it! :-D

ANd notice too, he doesn't say "you are not being punished for what you did to yourself when you stuck your head in that plastic bag" or "when you swallowed those pills" but "when you pulled the trigger". As if it's a given that a gun would be used. Something to think about ...

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 12:20 AM

I'm still in lurking mode [a periodic occurance for me], but I feel compelled to mention that although I'm finding this conversation intellectually interesting, for me, the intellectual considerations of death, and suicide, and reincarnaton, are far less important than the other sharing that has occurred in this thread.

For the record I want to state that I recognize that it might hurt some to consider this topic and it might be painful to revisit some of the experiences that have been recounted.

However, it is my hope that this discussion helps more than it hurts.

I also want to echo Bill D's wishes to all here: "Have good health and good cheer all thru the season...and the year to come!"

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:28 PM

(ooohh still awake, hmmm...couldn't even get my addendum in before you replied!..)

and the same good wishes to you, my friends! Have good health and good cheer all thru the season...and the year to come!

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:25 PM

By the way...there is a fascinating little paragraph in the notes at the bottom of a page in one of Humes works...I wish I could remember exactly where.

He has been going on about his theories and the solipstic nature of his philosophy, when he sort of says as an aside (paraphrased)..." ...though I have thoroughly examined all my logic and find it unassailable and beyond refute, I must admit that sometimes the implications of it become too much, and I have to quit thinking about it and clear my head by treating the world as if it WERE real and physical...etc..."

I will see if I have the original text book and post what Hume admitted about his own concepts...

What we learned in class was that Hume WAS very, very methodical and VERY hard to argue with within the confines of his own system. His logic was internally sound, but he never seemed to fully appreciate the assumptions he had to make to set the premises he used.

I once put up pictures of Hume and Kant on the bulletin board of our graduate seminar room, with quotations under each one ...and each quotation saying almost exactly the same thing...

"It is universally accepted that, to explore philosophy, we must first begin with 'experience'...."

...and under the two quotations, I wrote "Well, so far, so good!"   It got a few chuckles, as after that first paragraph, Hume & Kant headed off in totally different directions as they worked out what to DO with our examination of experience!

I suspect that we are just wired to 'like' different ideas, just as we like different flavors of ice cream....and it's a real trick to learn how to stand to the side and examine our own patterns of reasoning and decision making...but it can be VERY enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM

Ditto what Peace said.